Celebrate Religion here

Angels are something else entirely, at least in Catholicism. I think there might be some denominations that take Matthew 22:30 to mean that humans will literally become angels, or it might just be that angels are typically shown as very human in art.

Quote: 24Bingo

Angels are something else entirely, at least in Catholicism. I think there might be some denominations that take Matthew 22:30 to mean that humans will literally become angels, or it might just be that angels are typically shown as very human in art.

Quote: Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Quote: Wizard

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Muslims get 47 virgins, Christians get to be angels. If
you're gonna make promises you can't keep, they
might as well be whoppers.

Quote: EvenBob

Muslims get 47 virgins, Christians get to be angels. If
you're gonna make promises you can't keep, they
might as well be whoppers.

I thought it was 72 virgins. In which religion do I get the more experienced, but not too experienced, women? And 72 is too many. I think about 20 is enough.

Quote: Wizard

I thought it was 72 virgins. In which religion do I get the more experienced, but not too experienced, women? And 72 is too many. I think about 20 is enough.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster's heaven has a stripper factory and a beer volcano.

Quote: Wizard

I thought it was 72 virgins.

Poor Muslims get 47. And virgins make the
worst sex partners, its because Muslim men
are macho sexists that being a virgin is important.

Quote: EvenBob

Yeah, thats your answer as to why angels don't
protect anything, because they don't exist. They
are a childish invention of uneducated people
long ago to explain things they didn't understand.
If there is a god, its obvious to anyone paying
attention that he doesn't give one crap about anything
happening on earth.

That is a very pessimistic and uneducated thing to say, now I see why you don't believe in angels.
There are so many good people around the world striving to help others all inspired by God to do great and selfless things. God and most religions seem very much concerned about what is happening on earth. If belief in the spaghetti monster or belief in nothing doesn't inspire you to do anything about the brokenness of the world please don't project your depressing worldview on the rest of us. Thanks.

Quote: Wizard

I have a question. According to Christianity, are angels and humans completely different stock, or does a human become an angel after death? All I know of the topic I learned from It's a Wonderful Life.

Great movie - bad angel theology. 24Bingo is right, according to Catholicism Angels are completely different and entirely spiritual beings. We as humans are both spirit and body, a unique and intersting mix. We never become angels and angels never become us. Angels are soooooo cool maybe I'll write more on the feast of the Guardian Angels coming up Oct. 2nd. Peace.

Quote: FrGamble

There are so many good people around the world striving to help others all inspired by God

And there are just as many not inspired by god doing the
same thing. What does that have to do with angels.

What about Goblins, huh? Doesn't anybody belive in Goblins? You never hear about this. Except on Halloween and then it's all negative shit. And what about Zombies? You never hear from Zombies! That's the trouble with Zombies, they're unreliable! I say if you're going to go for the Angel bullshit you might as well go for the Zombie package as well."
- George Carlin

Quote: EvenBob

And there are just as many not inspired by god doing the
same thing. What does that have to do with angels.

really?!? Do you think that?

Quote: buzzpaff

What about Goblins, huh? Doesn't anybody belive in Goblins? You never hear about this. Except on Halloween and then it's all negative shit. And what about Zombies? You never hear from Zombies! That's the trouble with Zombies, they're unreliable! I say if you're going to go for the Angel bullshit you might as well go for the Zombie package as well."
- George Carlin

I don't know if it helps but if you go for the Angel teaching it does mean you might as well go for the demon package as well and that is not only scarier than zombies but actually real.

Quote: FrGamble

really?!? Do you think that?

You think everybody doing good in the world
is inspired by god? I don't believe any of it is
inspired by anything other than doing whats
right. Then religion came along and said 'hey,
we want the exclusive rights to that! And if you
disagree, we'll kill you, and when thats made
illegal, we'll excommunicate you.'

And what does this have to do with angels.

Quote: FrGamble

you might as well go for the demon package as well and that is not only scarier than zombies but actually real.

Of course, anything to get people to come
to church. If you can't guilt them into coming,
you can scare them into it. Been in the Church
playbook for a thousand years.

Quote: FrGamble

There are so many good people around the world striving to help others all inspired by God to do great and selfless things. God and most religions seem very much concerned about what is happening on earth. If belief in the spaghetti monster or belief in nothing doesn't inspire you to do anything about the brokenness of the world please don't project your depressing worldview on the rest of us. Thanks.

And there are many people around the world inspired by God to kill, and convert at the sword. After all, isn't it worth suffering in this world to save a soul? And even among those who do good, they often pollute their good with harm - Teresa is the most famous example, for exacerbating her patients' suffering in many cases, even as she helped them, to help them find a nonexistent entity. If you can imagine, even for a second, that God is not there, you can see the horror in all this. But I don't think you can, not really - because once you do, once you really, honestly, do, it will become obvious that the only god that can exist is the Azathoth you so despise.

So consider Lysenko, who held that Charles Darwin was an apologist for capitalism, and thus all biologists subsequent were misled. He developed his own principles, his own theory, bereft of ideology, unfettered by reality, the marvellous biology of the new age. And so he killed millions. The only lesson you can take from him is the danger of atheism, the danger of communism - but when you look at all the atheist, even communist thinkers in the science of the twentieth century, it becomes crystal-clear: the danger is being unable to face reality on its own terms.

But your illusory Truth is doing no harm, you say - what about Galileo? Yes, he did much of his best research under the eye of the Catholic Church, but heliocentrism was not accepted until long after his death, and why could that one departure from reality not have been a more dangerous one? "But that was then" - even in the twentieth century, that humans are descended of non-humans (NB: not evolution in general, just that one bit) was not accepted until 1950. Even now, the Church holds that Israel was united at the dawn of the Iron Age, which flies in the face of all archaeology, and yes, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in such a search space as that in Israel. It does not matter if you dream of God's Eden or Rousseau's, no act of charity is better than to wake up.

I can indeed imagine there is no God and the horror that would be. I don't see the virtue or value in facing reality on its own terms and just accepting it as if mother nature was your unquestionable azathoth. I can see waking up and looking at reality in a new light full of hope and the possibility of change through love; but to wake up and accept reality on its own terms seems more like hitting the snooze bar and rolling over.

As to Galileo I think it is always helpful to remember he was a fervent apologist for heliocentrism which was first proposed by a Catholic priest named Copernicus. He and his cause were not roundly rejected at first, but being at the time on the forefront of scientific thought it was cautiously accepted as a possibility until it could be further understood and proved. I admit there is a careful attitude and slow acceptance of new scientific truths, especially ones that have implications theologically and socially, by the Church. Some of this comes from being more than 2,000 years old and having seen a lot of false claims come and go. I also think it is also a good trait for the Church and most good scientists to be cautious when examining new ideas and theories. Even something like the Big Bang that points to the beginning and creation of the universe, the Church was slow to embrace it in order to make sure it was a sound and accepted scientific reality.

"The church was slow to embrace (the big bang theory) in order to make sure it was a sound and accepted scientific reality."
nomination: best of wizard of Vegas.
category: most ridiculous/ funniest comment ever read

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night....

Quote: EvenBob

You think everybody doing good in the world
is inspired by god? I don't believe any of it is
inspired by anything other than doing whats
right. Then religion came along and said 'hey,
we want the exclusive rights to that! And if you
disagree, we'll kill you, and when thats made
illegal, we'll excommunicate you.'

And what does this have to do with angels.

Where do you get that conception about "doing what is right"? My philosophy of life and belief system is grounded in the teachings of Jesus Christ who informs me that it is "right" to love my neighbor and be willing to sacrifice for them. I see my life's purpose in serving others and not worrying about being served. What does your philosophy of life or belief system say is right? What is the foundation and inspiration for you doing good in the world?

Remember you began this digression by questioning if God and his angels really cared about what is going on in the world.

Quote: FrGamble

What is the foundation and inspiration for you doing good in the world?

Trial and error, logic. Just like everything else. Repeated behavior,
encouraged behavior, soon it becomes ingrained, and comes
naturally. Religious people always take everything right to the
chicken and egg argument. Which came first, a good thought,
or god. To them, its always god. To everybody else, god was the
logical invention of mans thinking.

Quote: FrGamble

I can indeed imagine there is no God and the horror that would be.

But its not a horror, because everybody and everything
is in the same boat. Religion invents the horror. It tells
you if you don't behave, you will be rejected by god
and go to a place where god can't be found. Better come
to church, throw some money in the basket, and behave
yourself.

Quote: EvenBob

Trial and error, logic. Just like everything else. Repeated behavior,
encouraged behavior, soon it becomes ingrained, and comes
naturally. Religious people always take everything right to the
chicken and egg argument. Which came first, a good thought,
or god. To them, its always god. To everybody else, god was the
logical invention of mans thinking.

repeated, encouraged, and ingrained behavior is not good or bad for that matter, it just is a certain set of behaviors. If you repeated and were encouraged enough to lie so much so that it became ingrained, would that be "good"? Of course not. There needs to be something objectively good if we are not going to say everything is just subjectively based on what behavior you were taught or encouraged to do. This is why the foundation of God is so important for morality, without some rock solid foundation of good that goes beyond trial and error and what is ingrained in us by culture we wouldn't be able to call anything truly good or bad - and that is very bad.

Mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, mock on; 'tis all in vain!
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back they blind the mocking eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.

The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of Light
Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright.



Thing is, Blake was a madman. But he knew how to get his point across.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know if it helps but if you go for the Angel teaching it does mean you might as well go for the demon package as well and that is not only scarier than zombies but actually real.

Real like the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real?

No, real like exorcisms are real.

Quote: FrGamble

No, real like exorcisms are real.

Ah, Excorcisms are fakery but The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a real and true being who loves you.

Oh well, I direct you to Mosca's post above. Peace.

Quote: Mosca

Mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, mock on; 'tis all in vain!
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back they blind the mocking eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.

The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of Light
Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright.

Nice. We could use a poem of the day thread.

Quote: FrGamble

without some rock solid foundation of good that goes beyond trial and error and what is ingrained in us

You can ingrain right and wrong and doing good
in a child without ever mentioning religion or god.
One has nothing to do with the other.

Quote: FrGamble

Oh well, I direct you to Mosca's post above. Peace.

You're welcome, FrG.

Quote: s2dbaker

Ah, Excorcisms are fakery but The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a real and true being who loves you.

Nema!

Quote: FrGamble

Happy Feast of the Archangels to everyone! Here is a neat quote from Dr. Peter Kreeft - "12 things you should know about the Angels"

The Twelve Most Important Things to Know About Them

1. They really exist. Not just in our minds, or our myths, or our symbols, or our culture. They are as real as your dog, or your sister, or electricity.

2. They’re present, right here, right now, right next to you, reading these words with you.

3. They’re not cute, cuddly, comfortable, chummy, or “cool”. They are fearsome and formidable. They are huge. They are warriors.

4. They are the real “extra-terrestrials”, the real “Super-men”, the ultimate aliens. Their powers are far beyond those of all fictional creatures.

5. They are more brilliant minds than Einstein.

6. They can literally move the heavens and the earth if God permits them.

7. There are also evil angels, fallen angels, demons, or devils. These too are not myths. Demon possessions, and exorcisms, are real.

8. Angels are aware of you, even though you can’t usually see or hear them. But you can communicate with them. You can talk to them without even speaking.

9. You really do have your very own “guardian angel”. Everybody does.

10. Angels often come disguised. “Do not neglect hospitality, for some have entertained angels unawares”—that’s a warning from life’s oldest and best instruction manual.

11. We are on a protected part of a great battlefield between angels and devils, extending to eternity.

12. Angels are sentinels standing at the crossroads where life meets death. They work especially at moments of crisis, at the brink of disaster—for bodies, for souls, and for nations.

Actually, there is only one Angel. He was once a prodigal son named Liam who was sired by Darla into becoming a ruthlessly murderous vampire. In his attempt to murder a band of gypsies, he was cursed with a human soul - a conscience - which made him so horrified at the murders and atrocities which he had committed that his only course was to become the protector of all mankind for all time, especially the people of Los Angeles.

(God I miss that show! And TNT doesn't re-run it anymore, the sons o' bitches! LOL)

Quote: FrGamble

Oh well, I direct you to Mosca's post above. Peace.

You can mock The Flying Spaghetti Monster but then you'll never get the eternal access to His heavenly stripper factory and beer volcano! Praise His starchy goodness.

You pastafarians are so sensitive and excluding...
how can you possibly understand the will of FSM?

Quote: FrGamble

..., according to Catholicism Angels are completely different and entirely spiritual beings. We as humans are both spirit and body, a unique and intersting mix. We never become angels and angels never become us.

Thanks father. So Angels are humans are two completely different things. My next questions is about giants. You don't hear about them much but they were addressed a few times in the Old Testament. For example,

Quote: Genesis 6:4

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

To start with, who were the "sons of God"? Are those angels? If so, do male angels continue to have intercourse with human females today? I guess not, because nobody is giving birth to giants anymore. I won't ask why nobody has ever uncovered any bones of these giants. So, besides humans, we have angels and giants. What other mortal and immortal beings might I be missing?

Don't forget the sea monsters and unicorns..
They're in the there!

Quote: WongBo

Don't forget the sea monsters and unicorns..They're in the there!

You're right! Any others?

Quote: Numbers 24:8

God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

Quote: Lamentations 4:3

Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.

Witches (witch of endor)
Cockatrice (book of Isaiah and Jeremiah)
Gryphon (Leviticus)
Demons (Azazael).....

The current Catholic translation has those as "wild bull" and "jackals," respectively. The Vulgate has the first as "cornua bubali" ("horned buffalo") and the second as "thoes," thought to be a breed of jackal, or by a minority a demon. Apologists for the KJV will say that the unicorns are one-horned rhinoceroi, and the sea monsters are whales. The former Hebrew word is obscure, the latter does mean "jackal."

Despite the mythology that's sprung up around them, the word "cockatrice" is just an older word for cobras. Gryphons are found only in an interpretation of Lev. 11:20's prohibition on fowl that walk on all fours, which practically everywhere but the KJV is a prohibition on insects that walk on all fours (...that's another issue, although I'm not sure "on all fours" is best taken literally), and apologists for the KJV will say the word "fowl" at the time just meant "winged creature" (which it didn't, really - the Hebrew word did - but never mind).

Of course, Christians do believe in demons, and witches are nothing special.

Quote: WongBo

Witches (witch of endor)

I would sincerely like to hear from the other side about the role of witches in Christianity. To show that modern Christianity believes in witchcraft I would refer to this video with Sarah Palin, in which her pastor prays over her "In the name of Jesus, every form of witchcraft is what you will rebuke." Forward to the 2:15 point, where Mahr starts to talk about it.

I try to have an understanding of all religions so welcome the other side to address the witchcraft threat, which those on the outside so seldom hear about.

Quote: 2 Kings 9:22

And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?

Quote: s2dbaker

You can mock The Flying Spaghetti Monster but then you'll never get the eternal access to His heavenly stripper factory and beer volcano! Praise His starchy goodness.

How is it I'm just hearing of the Flying Spaghetti Monster now?...Please tell me where I can send all my money to ensure access to his heavenly kingdom of strippers and endless beer. I assume there is bourbon and sports on TV 24/7?

Holy Moly, see monster!

Quote: FrGamble

- "12 things you should know about the Angels"

.

So, if an angel can get thrown out of Heaven, I suppose humans in the afterlife could too. So much for eternal social security.

Quote: vendman1

How is it I'm just hearing of the Flying Spaghetti Monster now?...Please tell me where I can send all my money to ensure access to his heavenly kingdom of strippers and endless beer. I assume there is bourbon and sports on TV 24/7?

You can get saved here

Happy Feast of the Guardian Angels to everybody and as promised I would try to write a little more about angels.

In the Catholic understanding there really are three levels of being: the spiritual beings (angels and demons), the physical beings (animals and plants), and the unique human being who is not quite an angel and more than an animal. We are a mixture of body and soul which puts us above all the animals and below the angels. If you are a sea monster (animal) or a giant (a big human being) or a wild bull with one horn (animal) or a demon (a fallen angel) you would fall into one of these three categories. You can't go from one level to another for example an animal can't become an angel or an angel can't become a human being. Some might ask more about going from an animal to a human being. You can point to evolution to show the possibility of moving from animal to humanoid, but again human beings are more than just flesh they also have a soul that is given obviously only from God and is what makes us so different and unique from all the other of God's creatures.

Someone asked a good question about the angels who rebelled against God and were kicked out of Heaven. Does this mean we can get kicked out of Heaven too? Of course not. The angels at their creation by God as spiritual beings needed to make an eternal choice to accept God's plan and be willing to serve and love God and His creation, especially mankind. This didn't go over so well to Lucifer, the light-bearer, whose basic thought was, "I am far too awesome and powerful to serve anyone and I am certainly not going to serve this weird creation of body/soul humans!" So the devil and all who followed this prideful thought were banished and now wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

At this point many of you are probably like, "whoa where in the world or next-world is this stuff coming from!?!" Admittedly there is not this explicit story in the Bible and no one was there to witness the choice of the angels and record it for posterity. So where does this theology of angels come from? I think it is kind of like reverse engineering. We pretty much know the existence of demons and of angels. Not only is their presence throughout the Bible and many other religious traditions, but the Lord Jesus mentions both angels and demons explicitly. There also has been enough documented about these mysterious supernatural beings throughout history and so many people have had both positive and negative experiences (think exorcisms) as to make their existence even for the greatest skeptic a conundrum. So given their existence where did they come from? God, of course. Well God could and would not make demons, so where did they come from? Like all creatures they are given freedom so that they can truly love God and others but this means they neccesarily had to be given the opportunity to choose to be selfish and hate. When a purely spiritual being choses pride, selfishness, and hate it changes them completely and they become another thing all together - an evil spirit. There is a parallel obviously with the spiritual part of us which can be corrupted and changed when we chose evil and not good.

Finally for further reading on this topic may I recommend a great book from C.S. Lewis called "The Screwtape Letters". It is very interesting as the whole book is written from the perspective of a demon working on "converting" a soul to "his father below". God Bless and thanks for everybody’s interest in angels and demons it is a neat topic.

p.s. don't forget to thank your Guardian Angel today, and yes everyone of you have one.

Quote: FrGamble

The angels at their creation by God as spiritual beings needed to make an eternal choice to accept God's plan and be willing to serve and love God and His creation, especially mankind. This didn't go over so well to Lucifer, the light-bearer, whose basic thought was, "I am far too awesome and powerful to serve anyone and I am certainly not going to serve this weird creation of body/soul humans!" So the devil and all who followed this prideful thought were banished and now wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Ever notice how political heaven is? Its all ego's and power
and who serves who and getting kicked out if you don't
toe the political line. I suppose when man created god in
his image, he had to create heaven to mirror what happens
on earth. Sounds like Chicago in the 40's..

Quote: FrGamble

p.s. don't forget to thank your Guardian Angel today, and yes everyone of you have one.

Quote: Ephesians 2:1-22, NIV

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh [Gk. sarx] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one [Holy] Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

The plan of salvation in a nutshell, and nary a word about "angels". Hmmm.

I'm sure that there are myriad Scripture passages referring to angels and many OT stories featuring them, but the Bible is vitually silent on how angels presumably participate in salvation. Why the sci-fi EU preoccupation with them then?

Quote: NowTheSerpent

The plan of salvation in a nutshell, and nary a word about "angels". Hmmm.

I'm sure that there are myriad Scripture passages referring to angels and many OT stories featuring them, but the Bible is vitually silent on how angels presumably participate in salvation. Why the sci-fi EU preoccupation with them then?

Yeah you make a good point, it is only on these two days recently that we are preoccupied with them. They really have nothing to do with our salvation other than their help in protecting us from evil, but most of the time we are totally unaware of such assistance. The quote you presented from Ephesians is awesome and really gets to the heart of the matter, angels are interesting and mysterious but their existence is not what saves us. Thanks for the correction.

S2dbaker, thank you so much for bring clarity to my spiritual needs. the FSM website is now being forwarded to everyone I know. Ahhh Blissss.

Quote: vendman1

the FSM website is now being forwarded to everyone I know.

Oh, you've certainly found the "prime directive" of religion. Religion can't survive in the vacuum of one's head forever. It must be foisted upon the innocent and unwary, and even the wary, though the latter is less profitable expense of time and effort.

Quote: vendman1

S2dbaker, thank you so much for bring clarity to my spiritual needs. the FSM website is now being forwarded to everyone I know. Ahhh Blissss.

May you be touched by His noodly appendage.