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FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 14th, 2011 at 4:10:24 PM permalink
In celebrating religion I just want to say how neat it was that we were naturally led into a good discussion about the beginning of all things and some pretty fancy science discussion - all in a thread about religion. In further reflection this makes sense. Religion inspires us to look at the world in a new way. If the universe and all around us was created by some force or person we call God, it is only natural that we explore it, try to figure it out, and are amazed by it. The world around us becomes in a very real sense a revelation from God. The divine can be seen by believers in the structure of a snowflake and in the anatomy of a frog. Everything around us takes on new meaning. The world is infused with beauty and speaks to us and teaches us. This makes us want to study the world around us and science is born. I guess this explains why many of our greatest scientists have been religious. The idea that science and religion are enemies is a bald faced lie, they are allies in search of truth! A great example of this is the John Tempelton Foundation, check out their site JTF
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 14th, 2011 at 4:20:49 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Religion inspires us to look at the world in a new way. If the universe and all around us was created by some force or person we call God, it is only natural that we explore it



What we don't understand, we explore. Whats religion got to do
with it? Religion comes to its own usually wrong conclusions and
stands in the way of exploration. Ask Galileo. The Church was
real understanding of his explorations. Why do you always ignore
the history of your own religion, Padre?
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 14th, 2011 at 4:56:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

What we don't understand, we explore. Whats religion got to do
with it? Religion comes to its own usually wrong conclusions and
stands in the way of exploration. Ask Galileo. The Church was
real understanding of his explorations. Why do you always ignore
the history of your own religion, Padre?



It is not as simple as exploring what we don't understand. If what we don't understand has no rational or ordered structure it is like trying to explore and understand where the ball will bounce in roulette. Christianity, to use my own religion, gives science the rich soil in which to grow. It shows that the world is a rational place open to exploration and learning, it is not the chaos and randomness of the big wheel, which is a waste of time trying to study.

Religion, and I must say my own religion in particular, loves science and wants to see it grow strong and healthy. There have been some tragic cases in the past when the Church, which inspired Galileo's pursuit of science, turned around and squashed what it thought were ideas challenging the faith. At these instances the Church failed not only a good and faithful scientist like Galileo, but also the doctrine of the Church that science and our religion cannot be at odds because they both search after truth, which is ultimately God. The Church belatedly came to admit its mistake and reinforced its ancient belief that science and faith walk hand and hand towards God.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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November 14th, 2011 at 5:02:11 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

In celebrating religion I just want to say how neat it was that we were naturally led into a good discussion about the beginning of all things and some pretty fancy science discussion - all in a thread about religion. In further reflection this makes sense. Religion inspires us to look at the world in a new way. If the universe and all around us was created by some force or person we call God, it is only natural that we explore it, try to figure it out, and are amazed by it.



This last sentence makes no logical sense at all. Why does it require a God Creator to explore our physical world, or be amazed by it? Careful you don't end up begging the question there.

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The world around us becomes in a very real sense a revelation from God. The divine can be seen by believers in the structure of a snowflake and in the anatomy of a frog. Everything around us takes on new meaning. The world is infused with beauty and speaks to us and teaches us. This makes us want to study the world around us and science is born.



There is no need to create God to see beauty in a snowflake or wonder in the anatomy of a frog, or to even have the natural curiosity in the world around us. Science itself inspires me to be curious. It's our very nature to be curious (or at least some of us to question, other people don't care at all about science, but care about art, or food, or nothing very much at all).

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I guess this explains why many of our greatest scientists have been religious.



Great many great people of all types have been religious. Possibly because a great many people in history were religious, and people are a product of their culture.

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The idea that science and religion are enemies is a bald faced lie, they are allies in search of truth! A great example of this is the John Tempelton Foundation, check out their site JTF



The John Templeton Foundation tries to make scientists apologists for religion in returns for grant money. It's no worse than other foundations trying to get science to explore it's own goals.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 14th, 2011 at 5:04:14 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

It is not as simple as exploring what we don't understand. If what we don't understand has no rational or ordered structure it is like trying to explore and understand where the ball will bounce in roulette. Christianity, to use my own religion, gives science the rich soil in which to grow. It shows that the world is a rational place open to exploration and learning, it is not the chaos and randomness of the big wheel, which is a waste of time trying to study.



Except the world doesn't work at random.

There is no need to have (or have not) a God underlying the structure of the world in order to study events and try to make predictions and models of the world around us.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
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November 14th, 2011 at 5:07:48 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

The idea that science and religion are enemies is a bald faced lie,



Religion is an enemy of science. The war is over, though, at elast in the West, and science has little or nothing to fear from religion anymore. To quote Sheldon Cooper "Galileo and the Pope had a little missunderstanding." That can't happen these days.

Oh, there are some reactionary religious types yet, particularly in America, but they can't do worse than cut off government funding for science that offends their religious sensibilities, and push for teaching myths as science. This may sound bad, but it will be a cold day in the mythical Hell before anyone casn seriously consider pressing murder charges for performing abortions, or jailing people for teaching evolution.

You're wrong in thinking that scientists are concerned with "who" created the universe or "why." Scientists want to find out how. When they ask "why" they are looking for the natural laws that explain similar phenomena, Not "what is the purpose of electrons?" but "why do electrons behave the way they do?" This helps in determining "how did the universe evolve from the Big Bang to what we see today?" "how does a black hole form?" "how do genes control this or that aspect of development?" and so on.

Religion doesn't make you want to find out anything. God did it, right? that's explanation enough. How does it work? The way god meant it to. Why did Joe get cancer and Frnak didn't? God willed it what way? Why was Jeff cured of cancer and Jack wasn't? God works in mysterious ways.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 14th, 2011 at 5:38:52 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Except the world doesn't work at random.

There is no need to have (or have not) a God underlying the structure of the world in order to study events and try to make predictions and models of the world around us.



The world is indeed not random in fact it is unbelievably fine tuned for life. I think it was Stephen Hawking who said that if the universe expanded even the smallest fraction of a second, we're talking million, millionth of a sec. slower than all would have collapsed again into itself. If you tinker with things like gravity or other laws of physics just a little bit life as we know it can't exist. All of this points a design to the world around us and an amazing intellect behind the structure of the world. This is why we can have so much fun studying events and why we are confident is making predictions based on laws that are consistent and work together in an awesome way.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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November 14th, 2011 at 6:18:06 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Religion is an enemy of science. The war is over, though, at elast in the West, and science has little or nothing to fear from religion anymore.



The idea of science and religion at war is a late 19th century thought that has already been rounded dismissed. So I guess you are right in that the war is over, because it was never a war to begin with. From the beginning of modern science up to this crazy idea that they were against one another the relationship has really been one of friendship (with a few unfortunate spats that happen in every relationship). In the Church's view that is what it should be, two friends who need each others help to grow in knowledge and understanding.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, there are some reactionary religious types yet, particularly in America, but they can't do worse than cut off government funding for science that offends their religious sensibilities, and push for teaching myths as science. This may sound bad, but it will be a cold day in the mythical Hell before anyone casn seriously consider pressing murder charges for performing abortions, or jailing people for teaching evolution.



I am much more worried about being jailed for teaching that science shows us that from the moment of conception the new and unique person has the complete genetic code to guide it in development or that the speed of which intelligent life developed is far too fast for the process of random mutation and natural selection to do unaided. You see the real war is about not allowing science to freely speak. Religion has no fear of science because science only speaks the truth and supports religious ideas. The war is between moral relativism and science. Science has some pretty strong conclusions to make but our modern culture doesn't want to hear anything that might reinforce the religious truth, especially about morality. The problem is that it is all one truth so soon we will see certain discoveries of science suppressed and the poor Galileo event will played out again this time in the secular context. For example I'm amazed people still talk about embryonic stem cells when so much good and promise continue to be made with adult stem cells, which are the only stem cells that have ever helped anyone.

Quote: Nareed

You're wrong in thinking that scientists are concerned with "who" created the universe or "why." Scientists want to find out how. When they ask "why" they are looking for the natural laws that explain similar phenomena, Not "what is the purpose of electrons?" but "why do electrons behave the way they do?" This helps in determining "how did the universe evolve from the Big Bang to what we see today?" "how does a black hole form?" "how do genes control this or that aspect of development?" and so on.



This sounds like a good scientist. They should be concerned with how and the why, that is what they can observe and test. The data they collect becomes the grist for the big questions that cannot be put under a microscope but are just as real and important.

Quote: Nareed

Religion doesn't make you want to find out anything. God did it, right? that's explanation enough. How does it work? The way god meant it to.



"God did it!" is the greatest motivation for wanting to find everything out. This is why we are certain that it does work and that it makes sense. God provides the framework to support the possibility of science. If God didn't make it and it is just some random collection of stuff with no order, what purpose is it to study that? What can we learn from it?
EvenBob
EvenBob
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November 14th, 2011 at 6:43:28 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Religion, and I must say my own religion in particular, loves science and wants to see it grow strong and healthy.



Yeah, now that you've been forced to. It was 'go along
with the program' or perish. Religion is always the last
part of civilised society to get 'wised up'. And they always
go into it kicking and screaming. Now you want us to
believe the Church always had our best interests at heart,
when they actualy had their OWN best interests at the
forefront. The whole purpose of organised religion is
not to expand thought, but to stop it. Box it up and sell
it as a packaged deal. Used to be easier when the world
was full of ignorance. The sell is a little tougher these days.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
weaselman
weaselman
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November 14th, 2011 at 7:00:17 PM permalink
Quote: Garnabby

Were the universe completely separable from time, for that time to carry on in name only; and from space, as you noted earlier.


No, time is an inner concept to the Universe. By most scenarios, whenever the Universe comes to an end, so does the time.

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Yet when they attempt to further approach and explain it, i hear something like, "The laws of physics then should be radically-different... all hell would break loose with those."


Yes, of course. The end of Universe, means the end of physics among many other things. Physical laws are only meaningful inside the Universe (and not any Universe, mind you, but our particular Universe). Talking about physical laws outside the Universe has no meaning.
In particular, claims that physics (or science) is "at war" with religion are completely laughable. The two domains do not intersect, they have nothing to be "at war" about.

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So that even the concept of time, itself, would be in question?


Yes. Just like the concept of width.

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But can an interval really start, and be an interval, within another such interval?


Sure. Why not?

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Nor can i imagine real physical ,or mental, continuity existing in spurts.


Not sure what this means, but note that you not being able to imagine something does not necessarily mean that it cannot exist.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"

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