Celebrate Religion here

Quote: Nareed

Would that I understood the question :)
...
Anyway, I'd find any god who gave no importance to the individual not only repellent, but evil as well. Think of a divine version of Stalin or Mao. Oh, and this would be regarldess of whether this god intevenes in human affairs or not.

Really? I don't understand. If someone created you, then left you to do as you may (pretty much life as you know now, with the exception that God created all this around you), you'd think that to be an evil act? I'm not sure I can connect indifference to evil, but I'd be glad to hear you out if you cared to explain.

Quote: Face

Really? I don't understand. If someone created you, then left you to do as you may (pretty much life as you know now, with the exception that God created all this around you), you'd think that to be an evil act?

Again, that's not what you proposed in the first palce. We're talking about a deity who cares for the collective but not for the individual. Then why does he creates individuals to begin with? And how much can "love" matter in this context, if the deity doesn't value an individual's life any more than you value a skin cell.

Face, your insight into God teaching and forming us like a good parent through salvation history as presented in the Bible is a solid one that many theologians hold.

Quote: Nareed

Again, that's not what you proposed in the first palce. We're talking about a deity who cares for the collective but not for the individual. Then why does he creates individuals to begin with? And how much can "love" matter in this context, if the deity doesn't value an individual's life any more than you value a skin cell.

Ah, I gotcha now. Hard to keep the thoughts straight, what with me stepping outside of myself and all.

I can see what you mean completely now, I think. I can't say that I agree that it's terrible, but I can see your flip side of the coin that I created. If I was no more than an insignificant piece of a greater significant puzzle to Him, much like a skin cell vs my complete son to me, I still wouldn't be much bothered.

Can I ask if you're imagining my ideas with the Biblical God in mind? Because in that case I would agree that it's not a very pleasant idea, that God doesn't care about me as an individual, yet I'm supposed to worship and fear and give praise to a being that doesn't give a fart in the wind for me. If you were, then I'm sorry for losing focus. Even though I started with the Judeo-Christian idea of god (since I'm a westerner), somewhere in my thoughts I dropped it and began thinking of god on a blank slate and I never made that clear.

Sorry for being such a flake, but I got kind of lost on the pro-god side =)

Quote: Face

God doesn't care about me as an individual, yet I'm supposed to worship and fear and give praise to a being that doesn't give a fart in the wind for me.

But thats how it works. Even FrG admitted god is
neve around when you need him for anything. Like
saving you life. He said: God's love is not there or
He is not present when there is suffering or evil.

Quote: EvenBob

But thats how it works. Even FrG admitted god is
neve around when you need him for anything. Like
saving you life. He said: God's love is not there or
He is not present when there is suffering or evil.

Quote: FrGamble

I think God's goal for us in this world is not just a life filled with constant perfect physical pleasure and the absence of all pain. This strikes me as a childish view of who God is. God wants us to experience true and lasting happiness that the inevitable suffering we experience in this fleeting and broken world cannot touch. In fact there are some important lessons it seems to me we cannot truly learn without a skinned knee or a broken heart. So while it hurts our heavenly Father in the same way it would hurt a good earthly father to see their dear child hurt, God has something bigger to teach us. God wants us to know that no matter what we go through we are loved. This gives us a sense of peace, that doesn't take away the hurt and is not some pretend happiness, but it is a real deep peace. The word to use here may be more like Shalom, a deep sense of peace pervading the entirety of our lives. You can have Shalom and cancer, you can have Shalom in a concentration camp, you can have Shalom when grieving the loss of a loved one. God and His love for me, especially in the difficulties of life, is the source of my Shalom.

Bob, how did you so grossly misrepresent my thought? I believe God is always there when you need Him, especially in the suffering and evil - this is what the Cross of Jesus is all about! He is the source of my hope in the face of difficulties and the courage to press on. God's love is in fact most perfectly seen when He undergoes His own suffering and death so that our lives may be saved on earth with peace and in Heaven with eternal glory.

Quote: Face

Can I ask if you're imagining my ideas with the Biblical God in mind?

Not particularly.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob, how did you so grossly misrepresent my thought? .

You said: "Somehow God's love is not there or He is
not present when there is suffering or evil. That
understanding of God sounds more like Superman
and I for one don't believe in Superman."

You said god's not there when you need him. How
can it be taken any other way? I agree completely.
I love the interviews of survivors of catastrophes. They
always say god saved them. But we only get one
side of that. We can't interview those who didn't survive
and get their take on it, can we. In that way religion is
a one way street. They say 'thank god' for all things
they perceive as good, and ignore everything else
because it confuses their agenda.

I am still hung up on original sin. Still can't believe a new born baby is a sinner. What a con job !

Bob the quote you have latched on to is me trying to describe the thought of those who believe God is like a superhero. Some people seem to think that God is not present when there is suffering or evil but He is present in a more powerful way than some childish superhero. God is present to the survivors, but even more so to the victims.

Quote: FrGamble

God is present to the survivors, but even more so to the victims.

Unprovable wishful thinking.

Quote: EvenBob

Unprovable wishful thinking.

And that is precisely why God is more powerful than a superhero. Because He exists only in your mind.

Quote: s2dbaker

And that is precisely why God is more powerful than a superhero. Because He exists only in your mind.

Jesus Christ, who I believe is God, is a real historical person and me and millions upon millions upon millions, etc... of people have a real relationship with Him who loves us all.

Quote: FrGamble

Jesus Christ, who I believe is God, is a real historical person and me and millions upon millions upon millions, etc... of people have a real relationship with Him who loves us all.

Many more millions if people do not have a relationship with a 2000 year old corpse. If you're looking for truth by majority vote, you lose.

Just commenting upon your shocking dismissal of the reality of Jesus Christ, a real person who lived some 2,000 years ago who a great number of people around the world believe to be God and whom have a living relationship with the Resurrected Lord.

jesus, the l. ron hubbard of the first century...
just because a large number of people believe something, does not make it true

Quote: Face

I can see what you mean completely now, I think. I can't say that I agree that it's terrible, but I can see your flip side of the coin that I created.

Let me show you.

Suppose you were concerned with the great mass of children in your city. You dive whoeheartedly into your work for them, and do what you can to improve schooling, nutrition, play time, health, etc etc. This takes up so much of your time that you have little time to devote to your son. But that's ok for you, because your son is as much a part of the colelctivity of children as any other.

In time your son develops problems you can't help him with because you're too busy elsewhere. How much a consolation is it to him that you love him, if you can't spare him any significant time or attention? And worse yet, you claim since you're improving the lot of all chicldren, and he's a aprt of that collective, you are improving his lot as well?

Do you think then he should resent you for creating him to be just a number in your tally? Oh, it's too bad he's doing poorly in shcool, but overall grades are up! And it's too bad he's doing drugs, but overall drug use among teens is down!

Quote: FrGamble

Just commenting upon your shocking dismissal of the reality of Jesus Christ, a real person who lived some 2,000 years ago who a great number of people around the world believe to be God and whom have a living relationship with the Resurrected Lord.

A real person who lived 2,000 years ago, claimed by many around the world to be God, whose mantle many bear to this day? Following his springtime betrayal and murder, he went from a well-respected man to an archetype, and his followers came to build the institutions that led to modern civilization? Yep, good old JC in a nutshell.

...you know what, I'm not even going to bother coming up with a punchline here, because I'm pretty sure you all see where that was headed.

Regardless, while it's likely that there was a rabbi named some variant of Joshua (IHΣOYΣ = Joshua in LXX) who proclaimed the end times, said many of the things Jesus is said to have said, and did at least a few of the things he's said to have done, it's not really right to call him a "historical" figure. There are no contemporary references to him at all. There are very few references to him within living memory of him - namely, almost by definition, the gospels and esoteric gospels, and many of these, even accepting their fantastic elements, contain extreme historical improbabilities, and even the canonical gospels are difficult to reconcile. I'm not going to bother with the apparent contradictions between the birth narratives between Matthew and Luke, because I know you have a long list of explanations for these, and it's a distraction from the main issue: why do they have so little in common? It can't be that Luke didn't want to retread ground covered in Matthew, because he does that time and again in the main narrative, sometimes even verbatim; the book's clearly meant to be someone's first gospel. But the two tell completely different stories: Matthew tells of a family in Bethlehem, who are blessed by Zoroastrian mystics and flee to escape Herod's paranoid mass slaughter of children, going to Galilee out of fear of returning to Judea, whereas Luke tells of a Galilean family, relatives of John the Baptist, on a sojourn to Bethlehem who returned without any mention of further incidents in that town. Again, I know you can come up with a narrative that incorporates elements of both, but what I want is an epilogue, some seventy years later, when Luke and (the author of) Matthew have sat down to their desks and, each knowing that narrative, decided to write it in the way that they did. Moreover, John 7 seems to be mocking the notion that Jesus wasn't really a Galilean, as well as John 1 seemingly going after the idea espoused in Matthew and Mark that John the Baptist was Elijah returned. (And, of course, since Elijah was taken bodily into Heaven, the Lukan birth narrative is difficult to reconcile with that idea, but that's another distraction.)

Other than that, there's not much. Every other reference, aside from Josephus (one reference a patent forgery, the other suspect due to the first) and a few first-century rabbis, is clearly a reference to what Christians believe, and as irrelevant to the existence of Jesus as the existence of Vestals to that of Vesta. But in a way, all of this is a distraction, due to the more obvious issue: do you believe Mohammad existed, or Nanak, or even Joseph Smith? I imagine you do. What about the Baha'u'llah? With photographs, you'd be a fool not to. As I pointed out earlier, Caesar, despite himself being an Epicurean, was held to have a divine presence after his death - do you believe he existed? Or the great thinker Imhotep, or all the kings of Egypt, in particular Akhenaten, who claimed divine inspiration during his lifetime? I don't doubt that the stories of Jesus were inspired by a real man, despite the paucity of evidence he ever existed - but it doesn't matter.

Quote: FrGamble

Just commenting upon your shocking dismissal of the reality of Jesus Christ, a real person who lived some 2,000 years ago who a great number of people around the world believe to be God and whom have a living relationship with the Resurrected Lord.

I supposed it would be "shocking" to a person who has invested his time, career, life and "afterlife" on the contents of a bronze age book. I accept that.

But this discussion should continue in "There Is No God" since this thread is set up to celebrate the majesty of invisible friends.

Quote: 24Bingo

But in a way all of this is a distraction, due to the more obvious issue: do you believe Mohammad existed, or Nanak, or even Joseph Smith? I imagine you do. What about the Baha'u'llah? With photographs, you'd be a fool not to. As I pointed out earlier, Caesar, despite himself being an Epicurean, was held to have a divine presence after his death - do you believe he existed? Or the great thinker Imhotep, or all the kings of Egypt, in particular Akhenaten, who claimed divine inspiration during his lifetime? I don't doubt that the stories of Jesus were inspired by a real man, despite the paucity of evidence he ever existed - but it doesn't matter.

There is lots to correct in your post but the biggest correction is your conclusion. After you try to turn the Gospels on one another knowing the whole time, as you say, there are answers to your concerns and even after you try to twist the abscence of evidence (even though there is plenty) to become evidence of abscence, you still do not doubt the reality of this man Jesus. Your conclusion then is: it doesn't matter?!? You should have said that for some reason it doesn't matter to you. However, Jesus and his existence matter greatly to a great number of people. The uniqueness of Jesus amoung all of the other religious historical figures you mention is only one claimed to be God incarnate. This uniqueness of Christianity, grounded in history makes it real. I do believe Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Ceaser, Akhenaten existed but ultimately for them and their religions it doesn't matter. You can follow the five pillars of Islam without their last and greatest prophet, God still exists without Joseph Smith, etc. You can't have Christianity without the real presence of Jesus Christ. In Jesus the eternal God becomes one of us and shares our lives, knows our sorrows, rejoices in our victories, wants to be in an intimate relationship with us and finally suffers death for us and by His resurrection shows we will live forever. For me Jesus is the only one who matters and because of Him we all matter.

Quote: s2dbaker

I supposed it would be "shocking" to a person who has invested his time, career, life and "afterlife" on the contents of a bronze age book. I accept that.

But this discussion should continue in "There Is No God" since this thread is set up to celebrate the majesty of invisible friends.

No its shocking because of your hubris and superciliousness to dismiss the faith of so many people as equivelent to an invisible friend. Along with shocking it is also quite sad as well.

Quote: FrGamble

Along with shocking it is also quite sad as well.

Sad to who? What other people choose to believe in their ignorance
is none of my business. I've been talking to Christians all my life and
most of them are horribly ignorant on the subject of their own religion
or why they believe what they do. They're like sports fans. They fanatically
root for the home team not because its the best, not because they did the
due diligence and investigated, but just because they're the home team.

99% of Christians believe in Jesus because they were told to do so. They
never question it or think about it, that would be unseemly. The rest,
who were 'converted', do so because its easy. No work is involved, just
do it and go to church once in awhile. No brainer.

Bragging that millions of people believe in Jesus is like saying millions
of people eat cheese. Both are facts and both are essentially meaningless.

Quote: FrGamble

There is lots to correct in your post but the biggest correction is your conclusion. After you try to turn the Gospels on one another knowing the whole time, as you say, there are answers to your concerns and even after you try to twist the abscence of evidence (even though there is plenty) to become evidence of abscence, you still do not doubt the reality of this man Jesus. Your conclusion then is: it doesn't matter?!? You should have said that for some reason it doesn't matter to you. However, Jesus and his existence matter greatly to a great number of people. The uniqueness of Jesus amoung all of the other religious historical figures you mention is only one claimed to be God incarnate. This uniqueness of Christianity, grounded in history makes it real. I do believe Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Ceaser, Akhenaten existed but ultimately for them and their religions it doesn't matter. You can follow the five pillars of Islam without their last and greatest prophet, God still exists without Joseph Smith, etc. You can't have Christianity without the real presence of Jesus Christ. In Jesus the eternal God becomes one of us and shares our lives, knows our sorrows, rejoices in our victories, wants to be in an intimate relationship with us and finally suffers death for us and by His resurrection shows we will live forever. For me Jesus is the only one who matters and because of Him we all matter.

A: I know that you have answers to how the contradictory statements in the gospels could both be true, but my point was you don't have answers to how at least this particular one got there.
B: There's the question of whether Jesus himself actually claimed to be God, something he only says in John's gospel and seems to contradict when he rebukes the rich man for calling him "good" in Matthew and Mark - but so what if he did? What's really the difference between claiming to be inspired by God, or manifest of God (as Baha'u'llah did), and claiming to be God, when all are equally unsubstantiated? You could find something similarly "unique" in the teachings every one of them. (And Islam does indeed fall flat without Mohammad - I mean, "there is no god but God and _____?") Hell, "Athena" (worshipped long before this affair) made Peisistratos king of Athens - what reason do you have to believe Jesus above even her?
EDIT: C: I almost forgot. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." You have just admitted that every canonical gospel is false in one respect. It's reasonable to think that the leader of a small sect could have slipped under all contemporary writers' radars (and indeed, I imagine that's exactly what happened), but every canonical gospel contains the feeding of the 5000; every canonical gospel says that he had at least five thousand followers (Matthew even points out explicitly that this is only counting the grown men). No sect that large, at the height of the Roman Empire, could have escaped the notice of every single writer not himself a disciple, especially when those who would preserve the writings in later centuries, both Christian and Mulsim, had a special interest in such works.

Quote: 24Bingo

Hell, "Athena" (worshipped long before this affair) made Peisistratos king of Athens - what reason do you have to believe Jesus above even her?

Cause he's the most well known, of course. And he has
a hugely powerful church behind him that we can thank
the Roman's for. Without the crushing mass of the
Catholic Church for 1700 years, Jesus would be long
forgotten. They turned him into the most well known
brand in human history, thats what 1700 years of ruthless
publicity will do fo you..

These discussions are interesting because you have
somebody like FrG on the inside, scratching his head
and looking at us, saying 'whats wrong with these people'?

And were looking at him and saying the same thing. And its
all over a concept, an idea, something that has no
basis in any reality we can see or prove. Its a candle
in the wind that would go out if people let it, but they
keep relighting it.

But then again, arguments based on logic and facts are so damn boring.

I just spent a week in job related training with a good guy who happens to be a Muslim. Friday was the first day of Ramadan, and he was a little bit peaked by the end of the day (9AM to 8PM).

We talked a little bit about belief, and the nature of belief and of religious obligations, in his case fasting. He had what I thought was a pretty good reason for accepting his faith: he felt it made him a better person.

I'm OK with that. I couldn't do it, because every time I hear all that stuff it sounds like herpderp to me. I have my own way of being a better person. But if someone wants to be a better person, and religion works for him, or her, then I'm not interested in stopping that.

Bob,
I really want to write in response to your absolutely ridiculious and ignorant statements about Christianity but I doubt I will be able to do so and not get suspended. Please help me by admiting you are just being a troll trying to get a rise out of people and please retract such awful things as saying 99% of people who believe in Christ do so only because they were told to and never even think about it. The other 1% convert because it is easy?!? Some of your statements are beyond offensive because they don't even try to be grounded in reality, reason, or fact. I really enjoy talking about religion and my love for Jesus and I appreciate good challenges and well thought out posts on either side but you suck the life out of me with such statements.

Thanks Mosca for your post it calmed me down a lot and made me want to be a better person.

FrGamble, if I'm not mistaken, you're a Catholic. That means, if you're American, nearly everyone in your parish was born into the Church, and faith for most of them is tightly intertwined with ethnicity. How can you even pretend to be offended at the simple fact that they believe in Jesus first and foremost because they were raised to believe in Jesus, reciting the Nicene Creed by rote every week, with the threat in this world (never mind the next) of ostracism and dilution of identity for changing their minds, and not because they've actually considered with an open mind whether or not he is truly God?

If what you're about to say is that they were made to give "a reason for their hope" prior to their Confirmations, let me tell you what I wrote: "there must be a god of some sort, even if this 'god' is only the selection between quantum events." At that age, it seemed a reasonable answer to me, and no one said a word.

Quote: FrGamble

please retract such awful things as saying 99% of people who believe in Christ do so only because they were told to and never even think about it.
.

But thats absolutely my experience. I have lived in W MI most of
my 63 years and have known hundreds of Christians. Every one
of them is a Christian because they were told they were Chriatians
when they were kids. They had no choice in going to church,
were never exposed to anything else growing up. They were told
that was what they believed and that was that.

Some have dropped away, but most of them I still know go to
Church on a regular basis. I have never met anyone that I knew
who converted as an adult. They were always trying to convert
me. I find it very hard to discuss religion with these people because
they take what they've been told for granted and their eyes glaze
over if you try and talk about it. I gave up years ago.

My best times was when I loaded trucks at Amway in my early
20's. There was some really nice young guys who were always
talking about Jesus and we had some good discussions. But as
I got older, peope just took their religion for granted and there
was no room for discussion. My own wife is a Christian, her
father is an 87 year old Baptist minister, her brother has a church
in Canada that he's had for 30 years. I'm surrounded by these
people, I'm sorry if my personal experience doesn't meet with
your approval. What can I say..

My wifes family reunion was last Saturday. There was at least
100 adults there, all of them Christians from birth. I was the
only non believer. When my wife married me, she came under
great scorn from her lovely non judgemental (choke) family
because I wasn't one of them. She has long given up on me.
Did any of those people mention Jesus at the reunion? Nope,
never ever in a million years. Nobody ever mentions him, he's
taken for granted. If you ask, they will. But they never bring
it up. Their religion is a nondiscussable foregone conclusion.
Its a private club and I am an interloper. They have never
quite accepted me and never will.

Quote: 24Bingo

with the threat in this world (never mind the next) of ostracism and dilution of identity for changing their minds, and not because they've actually considered with an open mind whether or not he is truly God?

I've never known any Christian thats questioned their belief.
They just accept it without hesitation. But I have known a
couple that strayed and felt the bite of the church.

A friend of mine had a very profitable business and was a
member in high standing in his church. He tithed 10% of
his huge income without even thinking about it. His wife
had an affair and they eventually got a divorce. Because
he was a bigwig in his chuch, and divorced people weren't
welcome at that level, they busted him down to lower ranks.
But they still wanted his 10%.

To say he was outraged is an under statement. He had given
hundreds of thousands over the years. He left the church, he
left the state. It had to be a blow to that churches bottom
line, this guy was making at least $500K a year. But hey,
they showed him, didn't they.

Quote: EvenBob

She has long given up on me.

Heh, I once listened to my brother's wife talk about a 90 year old lady they had finally gotten right with the Lord. (probably 'cause she had gone feeble minded and could no longer resist, I thought to myself.)

Funny if you're not a Mormon. But it's funnier if you're a non-believer because it applies to all religions.

Quote: 24Bingo

FrGamble, if I'm not mistaken, you're a Catholic. That means, if you're American, nearly everyone in your parish was born into the Church, and faith for most of them is tightly intertwined with ethnicity. How can you even pretend to be offended at the simple fact that they believe in Jesus first and foremost because they were raised to believe in Jesus, reciting the Nicene Creed by rote every week, with the threat in this world (never mind the next) of ostracism and dilution of identity for changing their minds, and not because they've actually considered with an open mind whether or not he is truly God?

If what you're about to say is that they were made to give "a reason for their hope" prior to their Confirmations, let me tell you what I wrote: "there must be a god of some sort, even if this 'god' is only the selection between quantum events." At that age, it seemed a reasonable answer to me, and no one said a word.

I am so sorry that you guys have had these experiences about seemingly mindles Christian zombies repeating ancient text with glazed over eyes who stay because they feel if they leave they will be shunned. I can't doubt that this is your true experience and as I said this is sad. Let me say that my personal experience as a young person rejecting Confirmation, becoming a non-believer, and returning to the faith and being Confirmed finally in college is very different than what you describe. Also my experience as a priest in now my third assignment and now as a pastor is also radically different than you describe. We have usually over a dozen adult baptisms every year, long lines for confessions every week, and packed adult faith formation sessions full of Catholics who want to learn more about their faith. I won't deny there may be a few zombies in the congregation but I never see them because I am blinded by the joy of a beautiful congregation who love Jesus, their Church, and want to grow in faith and serve their neighbor.

It turns out I'm not so much upset with Bob or anyone esle I am furious that Christians allow this false sterotype of unthinking acceptance, like you see in that clip from the Book of Mormon, to exist. We should take more seriously my favorite passage, (1 Peter 3:15-16) "sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do ti with gentleness and reverence,"

You must be aware that your experience is the exceptional one - that most of the people who were Confirmed when you weren't had foreseen it as a rite of passage long before they understood its ritual significance, and weren't giving any serious consideration to pulling out, regardless of their personal beliefs. I imagine most of them did and do genuinely believe in Jesus, and most of them felt they had experienced the sublime - but that's not why they were there. Likewise, I imagine most of the people in your congregation wholeheartedly do believe in Jesus, but the point is that they did not come to this belief in the way one comes to true beliefs. You yourself left the faith, and came back with it mightily reinforced, and while I can't imagine why, and your reasons given here seem staggeringly weak, it does happen. However, most of the people in the pews in front of you have never left the faith, and have never given the first thought to leaving the faith, but only accepted that which they were raised to believe. They're not "zombies," in that they do believe what they've been raised to believe, and many of them wish to learn more about it, but they wish to learn with the intent of strengthening their belief, not changing it, and as common a mental trap as that is in all areas, it's not how reasonable beliefs are formed.

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations.
The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious.
If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god,
one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him.
They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.”

-Thomas Jefferson

Its almost like a cult in my area. In my wife's family the
young people only marry other Christians. Who come from
all Christian families. Lots of Dutch people here, lots
of Christian Reformed and lots of Baptists. My wife never
had a TV till she was 20 and in college. Her dad taught
them Elvis was the devil.

On Mad Men, theis's a priest who constantly lays guilt
trips on people if they stop going to church. The things
he says are really quite amazing, but its the early 60's.
I don't know if priests still get away with that or not.

Thomas Jefferson loved the teachings of Jesus Christ but thought all the religious stuff got in the way. The above quote doesn't give his thought justice.

"And like all of us, my faith journey has had its twists and turns. It hasn't always been a straight line. I have thanked God for the joys of parenthood and Michelle's willingness to put up with me. In the wake of failures and disappointments I've questioned what God had in store for me and been reminded that God's plans for us may not always match our own short-sighted desires.

"And let me tell you, these past two years, they have deepened my faith. The presidency has a funny way of making a person feel the need to pray. Abe Lincoln said, as many of you know, 'I have been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had no place else to go."

-Barack Obama

Quote: FrGamble

-Barack Obama

I wouldn't go about illustrating what Jefferson did or did not believe by quoting Obama. I'm more likley to tak Jefferson's own words concerning his beliefs.

Nor would I use Obama to illustrate an aspect of christianity. I mean, how's that mandatory coverage of contraceptives working out for your particular branch?

Quote: Nareed

Nor would I use Obama to illustrate an aspect of christianity.

Isn't Obama a Muslim from Kenya?

Most people think What Would Jesus Do is a modern saying.
It originated in the 1890's from a book called In His Steps that
was the second best selling book of all time until the 1940's
when it was out sold by Ben Hur. In His Steps was a book
about Christian Socialism.

Happy Feast of the Archangels to everyone! Here is a neat quote from Dr. Peter Kreeft - "12 things you should know about the Angels"

The Twelve Most Important Things to Know About Them

1. They really exist. Not just in our minds, or our myths, or our symbols, or our culture. They are as real as your dog, or your sister, or electricity.

2. They’re present, right here, right now, right next to you, reading these words with you.

3. They’re not cute, cuddly, comfortable, chummy, or “cool”. They are fearsome and formidable. They are huge. They are warriors.

4. They are the real “extra-terrestrials”, the real “Super-men”, the ultimate aliens. Their powers are far beyond those of all fictional creatures.

5. They are more brilliant minds than Einstein.

6. They can literally move the heavens and the earth if God permits them.

7. There are also evil angels, fallen angels, demons, or devils. These too are not myths. Demon possessions, and exorcisms, are real.

8. Angels are aware of you, even though you can’t usually see or hear them. But you can communicate with them. You can talk to them without even speaking.

9. You really do have your very own “guardian angel”. Everybody does.

10. Angels often come disguised. “Do not neglect hospitality, for some have entertained angels unawares”—that’s a warning from life’s oldest and best instruction manual.

11. We are on a protected part of a great battlefield between angels and devils, extending to eternity.

12. Angels are sentinels standing at the crossroads where life meets death. They work especially at moments of crisis, at the brink of disaster—for bodies, for souls, and for nations.

Looks like someone forgot to put the Poe's Law smiley in their post today.

Angels are every bit as real as my sister.

Happy Feast of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to everyone! Here is a neat quote from Rev. s2dbaker - "12 things you should know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster"

The Twelve Most Important Things to Know About Him

1. He really exists. Not just in our minds, or our myths, or our symbols, or our culture. He is as real as your dog, or your sister, or electricity.

2. He is present, right here, right now, right next to you, reading these words with you.

3. He is kinda cute, cuddly, comfortable, chummy, and “cool” for a guy made out of pasta. He's fearsome and formidable. He's huge. He likes strippers and pirates.

4. He is the real “extra-terrestrial”, the real “Super-man”, the ultimate alien. His powers are far beyond those of all fictional creatures like angels and cherubim.

5. He is more brilliant than the mind of Einstein.

6. He can literally move the heavens and the earth because He is God.

7. There are evil angels, fallen angels, demons, or devils. These too are not myths. Anti-pasta, Demon possessions, and exorcisms, are real.

8. The FSM is aware of you, even though you can’t usually see or hear Him. But you can communicate with Him. You can talk to Him without even speaking.

9. You really do have your very own “guardian stripper” or “guardian pirate”. Everybody does.

10. The FSM often comes disguised. “Do not neglect hospitality, for some have entertained the FSM unawares”—that’s a warning from life’s oldest and best instruction manual.

11. We are on a protected part of a great battlefield between the forces of pasta and anti-pasta, extending to eternity.

12. The strippers from the FSM's stripper factory are sentinels standing at the crossroads where life meets death. They work especially at moments of crisis, at the brink of disaster—for bodies, for souls, and for nations.

Quote: frgamble

11.We are on a protected part of a great battlefield between angels and devils, extending to eternity.

Yeah? When are they going to start protecting
the thousands of African children that die every
die from disease? That would be nice..

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: frgamble

11. We are on a protected part of a great battlefield between the forces of pasta and anti-pasta, extending to eternity.

Yeah? When are they going to start protecting
the thousands of African children that die every
die from disease? That would be nice..

Hey Bob, I don't think you're quoting the person that you think you're quoting. Look closer.

corrected.

Quote: s2dbaker

Looks like someone forgot to put the Poe's Law smiley in their post today.

I imagine for someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural angels would seem like a spaghetti monster.

Quote: FrGamble

I imagine for someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural angels would seem like a spaghetti monster.

Yeah, thats your answer as to why angels don't
protect anything, because they don't exist. They
are a childish invention of uneducated people
long ago to explain things they didn't understand.
If there is a god, its obvious to anyone paying
attention that he doesn't give one crap about anything
happening on earth.

I have a question. According to Christianity, are angels and humans completely different stock, or does a human become an angel after death? All I know of the topic I learned from It's a Wonderful Life.