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billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 8:52:20 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: billryan

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: EvenBob

Why, because it did not immediately start to make money? Ever heard of a long-term investment? Look at it again in 5 years and tell me it was a bad investment. Look at Tesla. In 2018 it was going so badly Elon Musk tried to sell it and look at it today. It's the most valuable car company in the world and one of the world's most valuable companies. And it was all done on word of mouth, Tesla does not advertise. Imagine what it's going to do when they do start advertising. So don't worry about Twitter, it also will be one of the most valuable companies in the world.
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If you can't effectively manage $100,000, or $1,000,000, or even $10,000,000, you'll go broke pretty quickly. But if you have $250,000,000,000, you can screw up A LOT, over and over and over again, and no one will know the difference. Elon is a walking trainwreck, but because he has effectively infinite money, he still appears successful.
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Yes, he is lucky someone keeps handing him all that money.
I keep reading about how he has lost all this money on twitter. Someone will have to explain that as the stock is pretty much right where he bought it.
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How do you know the price of Twitter stock? Elon took it private and as far as I know, no one is making a market in it.
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Fast for three days, drink the entrails from a one-eyed chicken and BBQ a month-old Golden Eagle and the answer will come to you, too.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 9:34:03 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: billryan


You keep comparing apples and oranges. Eight percent of houses sold in the last three years are a million dollar plus.
Wealth is self-sustaining.
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$2.2 million is easily self-sustaining in an LCOL to MCOL area. If someone handed you $2.2mm at the age of 18, you would never have to work another day in your life.
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You'll get between $150,000 and $200,000 a year in income. Before taxes. After taxes, maybe $100K-$150K . Perhaps that it great money for an 18-year-old. How about after inflation has knocked down 30% of it in ten years? How about when your three kids need braces and you need to save for their education? How about in forty-five years when inflation makes it near worthless and you have no Social Security? Either you've eaten away at your nest egg over the years or your nest egg has been swallowed by inflation.
Imagine a guy who had a $ 200-a-month pension in 1923. He could live very well. However, each year, inflation ate away a little. If he lived to 2023, his $200 is one night in a hotel. It wasn't sustainable.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
EvenBob
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December 19th, 2023 at 9:47:31 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu



Thanks for agreeing with me that he has effectively infinite money. He is still a POS human being.
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You have what I call Rockefeller Syndrome. Back in the '90s I was fascinated by John D Rockefeller and I read everything I could get my hands on about him. At the moment he is still the richest man the world has ever seen, for now. His net worth at its height in today's money would be about half a billion dollars. And people hated his guts, mostly just because he was rich. He did a lot of things that he shouldn't have done but he was no different than any other of the multimillionaires of his time. He bent the rules until the rules changed but that's not why people hated him. People will always hate the richest of the rich, it just goes with the territory. They can be the most philanthropic people that ever lived and it wouldn't matter. The jealousy of those who do so much better than we do is rooted in our DNA, and for some of it's far worse than for others. Jordan Peterson says Elon Musk is a one in a billion human in that he has the ability to make huge amounts of money and at the same time he's extremely conscientious when it comes to what's going to happen to the Earth. Peterson says it's usually one or the other very seldom do you see both in one person. You see lots of rich people playing at caring about the future because it's good for their image, what they really care about is there six luxury homes their fleet of jets and their billion dollar yacht.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
lilredrooster
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December 19th, 2023 at 9:59:04 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: billryan


You keep comparing apples and oranges. Eight percent of houses sold in the last three years are a million dollar plus.
Wealth is self-sustaining.
link to original post



$2.2 million is easily self-sustaining in an LCOL to MCOL area. If someone handed you $2.2mm at the age of 18, you would never have to work another day in your life.
link to original post



You'll get between $150,000 and $200,000 a year in income. Before taxes. After taxes, maybe $100K-$150K . Perhaps that it great money for an 18-year-old. How about after inflation has knocked down 30% of it in ten years? How about when your three kids need braces and you need to save for their education? How about in forty-five years when inflation makes it near worthless and you have no Social Security? Either you've eaten away at your nest egg over the years or your nest egg has been swallowed by inflation.
Imagine a guy who had a $ 200-a-month pension in 1923. He could live very well. However, each year, inflation ate away a little. If he lived to 2023, his $200 is one night in a hotel. It wasn't sustainable.
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if he is wise about his finances and chooses to live on just $100K per year - still a pretty fair amount - he could increase his drawdown by about 4% each year - that is the average change in the value of money due to inflation
each year his investments (assuming he primarily invests in the S&P 500 index fund or something comparable) -
the value of his investment on average will increase by about $100K in the early years and much more in the later years
in 10 years the value of his investments - assuming average performance should be well over $3 million
in 20 years the value of his investments assuming average performance should be at least $5 million
unless he decides for personal reasons to draw down much larger amounts - makes unwise decisions -
he wouldn't be fabulously wealthy - but with wise decisions he should have no financial problems
unless there was a very long bear market - a distinct possibility - if that happens - he needs to get a job

.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Dec 19, 2023
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:10:37 AM permalink
My friend opened an account in each of his grandchildren's name with a million dollars at their birth, payable to them at 30 or their college graduation. He expected they'd get between five and eight million when they cashed in. The problem was he invested with his friend Bernie. They eventually got back most of their investment, but none of the returns they expected.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
TigerWu
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:14:45 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

You'll get between $150,000 and $200,000 a year in income. Before taxes. After taxes, maybe $100K-$150K . Perhaps that it great money for an 18-year-old. How about after inflation has knocked down 30% of it in ten years? How about when your three kids need braces and you need to save for their education? How about in forty-five years when inflation makes it near worthless and you have no Social Security? Either you've eaten away at your nest egg over the years or your nest egg has been swallowed by inflation.
Imagine a guy who had a $ 200-a-month pension in 1923. He could live very well. However, each year, inflation ate away a little. If he lived to 2023, his $200 is one night in a hotel. It wasn't sustainable.
link to original post



That's not how you would financially handle that AT ALL...that would be a disaster...LOL. Even just going with completely basic, generic advice, with $2.2 million invested:

Withdraw 4% the first year, or $88,000. That's pretty damn good money for one person in an LCOL state, even after taxes. Every year adjust the withdrawal for inflation, and that $2.2mm will last you forever. And that's if you actually spend every single penny every year. You're likely not going to do that, because there will probably be years where you just take a few smaller vacations, and just hang around the house a bit playing video games, and you spend maybe half that, or whatever. All that money you don't spend every year just gets reinvested. You can always adjust your withdrawals up or down depending on your spending habits.

You're talking about three kids needing braces and an education... okay, if I have three kids, then I probably have a wife, who probably has a job, so there's another stream of income to help cover that. And I can always get some random part time job to help cover extra costs if my wife's salary and my $88k a year withdrawals aren't enough for some reason.

Your scenario is absolutely the worst way to handle $2.2 million and no one with any financial sense would do it that way.
billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:24:01 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: billryan

You'll get between $150,000 and $200,000 a year in income. Before taxes. After taxes, maybe $100K-$150K . Perhaps that it great money for an 18-year-old. How about after inflation has knocked down 30% of it in ten years? How about when your three kids need braces and you need to save for their education? How about in forty-five years when inflation makes it near worthless and you have no Social Security? Either you've eaten away at your nest egg over the years or your nest egg has been swallowed by inflation.
Imagine a guy who had a $ 200-a-month pension in 1923. He could live very well. However, each year, inflation ate away a little. If he lived to 2023, his $200 is one night in a hotel. It wasn't sustainable.
link to original post



That's not how you would financially handle that AT ALL...that would be a disaster...LOL. Even just going with completely basic, generic advice, with $2.2 million invested:

Withdraw 4% the first year, or $88,000. That's pretty damn good money for one person in an LCOL state, even after taxes. Every year adjust the withdrawal for inflation, and that $2.2mm will last you forever. And that's if you actually spend every single penny every year. You're likely not going to do that, because there will probably be years where you just take a few smaller vacations, and just hang around the house a bit playing video games, and you spend maybe half that, or whatever. All that money you don't spend every year just gets reinvested. You can always adjust your withdrawals up or down depending on your spending habits.

You're talking about three kids needing braces and an education... okay, if I have three kids, then I probably have a wife, who probably has a job, so there's another stream of income to help cover that. And I can always get some random part time job to help cover extra costs if my wife's salary and my $88k a year withdrawals aren't enough for some reason.

Your scenario is absolutely the worst way to handle $2.2 million and no one with any financial sense would do it that way.
link to original post




Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes? Never buy a house, never buy a new car? Never buy a motorcycle or a boat? Retired people take out 4% but they have Social Security and other investments. The discussion is about being wealthy. Do you think 60K a year lets anyone live a wealthy lifestyle? Maybe in Oaxaca or San Salvador, but not in this country.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
lilredrooster
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:42:36 AM permalink
Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes? Never buy a house, never buy a new car?


Come on
Seriously
You don't really believe that a single man making $88,000 gross and $60 K net can't buy a house or a new car.
He can't pay cash for those things but I don't think that's what you mean.
Do you______________?

.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:54:58 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes? Never buy a house, never buy a new car?


Come on
Seriously
You don't really believe that a single man making $88,000 gross and $60 K net can't buy a house or a new car.
He can't pay cash for those things but I don't think that's what you mean.
Do you______________?

.
link to original post



I've no doubt he will buy a car, a house, a boat and or a motorcycle, and get himself into a horrible cash flow situation. I'd say it is 50-50 he's broke by forty.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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December 19th, 2023 at 10:56:06 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes? Never buy a house, never buy a new car?


Come on
Seriously
You don't really believe that a single man making $88,000 gross and $60 K net can't buy a house or a new car.
He can't pay cash for those things but I don't think that's what you mean.
Do you______________?

.
link to original post



Do you think a man grossing 88K is wealthy?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
TigerWu
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December 19th, 2023 at 12:14:37 PM permalink
Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes?



Absolutely doable in this country.

Quote:

Never buy a house, never buy a new car? Never buy a motorcycle or a boat?



Why wouldn't you be able to buy a house or a car? With a $60k NET income you can easily afford a mortgage and a car. And like I said before, if you have a spouse/partner/roommate/whatever, it's even more affordable.

Quote:

Retired people take out 4% but they have Social Security and other investments. The discussion is about being wealthy. Do you think 60K a year lets anyone live a wealthy lifestyle? Maybe in Oaxaca or San Salvador, but not in this country.
link to original post



Okay, I'll concede that $60k a year net is probably not "wealthy," but it IS comfortable living in many parts of the US unless you are financially irresponsible.

Quote: billryan

I've no doubt he will buy a car, a house, a boat and or a motorcycle, and get himself into a horrible cash flow situation. I'd say it is 50-50 he's broke by forty.
link to original post



The point is that mathematically a person can live off of $2.2 million forever. Of course in the real world many 18 year olds would totally screw that up, but that's not what I'm arguing.
lilredrooster
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December 19th, 2023 at 12:16:29 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes? Never buy a house, never buy a new car?


Come on
Seriously
You don't really believe that a single man making $88,000 gross and $60 K net can't buy a house or a new car.
He can't pay cash for those things but I don't think that's what you mean.
Do you______________?
link to original post


Do you think a man grossing 88K is wealthy?
link to original post


No, and I never said that.
Neither did Tiger Wu
He only said he was self sustaining.

Quote: billryan


I've no doubt he will buy a car, a house, a boat and or a motorcycle, and get himself into a horrible cash flow situation. I'd say it is 50-50 he's broke by forty.


Some manage their money poorly.
Some manage their money well.
Everybody is not the same to make a blanket statement like that.
.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
AZDuffman
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December 19th, 2023 at 12:18:57 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: TigerWu



Thanks for agreeing with me that he has effectively infinite money. He is still a POS human being.
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You have what I call Rockefeller Syndrome. Back in the '90s I was fascinated by John D Rockefeller and I read everything I could get my hands on about him. At the moment he is still the richest man the world has ever seen, for now. His net worth at its height in today's money would be about half a billion dollars. And people hated his guts, mostly just because he was rich. He did a lot of things that he shouldn't have done but he was no different than any other of the multimillionaires of his time. He bent the rules until the rules changed but that's not why people hated him. People will always hate the richest of the rich, it just goes with the territory. They can be the most philanthropic people that ever lived and it wouldn't matter. The jealousy of those who do so much better than we do is rooted in our DNA, and for some of it's far worse than for others. Jordan Peterson says Elon Musk is a one in a billion human in that he has the ability to make huge amounts of money and at the same time he's extremely conscientious when it comes to what's going to happen to the Earth. Peterson says it's usually one or the other very seldom do you see both in one person. You see lots of rich people playing at caring about the future because it's good for their image, what they really care about is there six luxury homes their fleet of jets and their billion dollar yacht.
link to original post



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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December 19th, 2023 at 1:26:52 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
TigerWu
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December 19th, 2023 at 1:32:39 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob


You have what I call Rockefeller Syndrome. Back in the '90s I was fascinated by John D Rockefeller and I read everything I could get my hands on about him. At the moment he is still the richest man the world has ever seen, for now. His net worth at its height in today's money would be about half a billion dollars. And people hated his guts, mostly just because he was rich.
link to original post



I never said I hated Elon because he's rich, I said I hated him because he's a scumbag. Am I not allowed to hate people I think are scumbags just because they're rich? Take away all his money and he would still be a scumbag, and I would still hate him; I don't give a s*** how much money he has.
Dieter
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December 19th, 2023 at 1:37:47 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu


The point is that mathematically a person can live off of $2.2 million forever. Of course in the real world many 18 year olds would totally screw that up, but that's not what I'm arguing.
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One of the neighborhood tribes gives their 18 year old members their "18 money" - a share of tribal wealth - upon achievement of some basic requirements (I believe, turning 18, and graduating high school.)
It's "only" around $220k.
It's usually gone inside 3 months.



I believe that is representative of the usual level of personal financial responsibility, and why I recommend taking the annuity payout instead of the lump sum, should anyone happen to win the lotto.

So yes, it may be possible to live responsibly indefinitely on $2.2million, but I don't think it's likely for the majority of society.
May the cards fall in your favor.
EvenBob
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December 19th, 2023 at 1:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu



Okay, I'll concede that $60k a year net is probably not "wealthy," but it IS comfortable living in many parts of the US unless you are financially irresponsible.

link to original post



My youngest daughter and her idiot husband together make almost $200,000 a year. I don't know how they do it because I wouldn't pay either one of them to mow my lawn and expect a good job out of it. They have two children and they're always broke. Well, not broke, but they're always complaining about money, or so my wife says. I don't speak to them unless I'm absolutely forced to, which isn't very often. They have a mortgage and one car payment and two teenage kids and they can't live on $200,000 a year. Of course they could if they tried but to me they're just adult children that you can't explain anything to so I don't bother. My wife sees them all the time because she's forced to. And no they are not my grandchildren because she married a guy that had two kids already. So I'm off the hook, I don't ever have to see them again if I don't want to. Here's a clue as to how they live. They have a giant freezer which they fill with food but never eat out of, or rarely, and at the end of every year they throw everything in the freezer away so they can fill it up again. I have nothing to say to people who live like that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
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December 19th, 2023 at 2:55:13 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Joeman
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December 19th, 2023 at 6:13:23 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
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"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
SOOPOO
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December 19th, 2023 at 7:50:20 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
link to original post



Agree. They are just polluting less. I have a friend who has solar panels on his roof. And they drive two electric cars. He is pretty close to driving without pollution. There must have been some in the construction of his car and roof panels, but nowhere near as much as, say, me with my two gas cars.

How many billions of barrels of oil would we save if all Americans did what my friend does?
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 4:35:50 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
link to original post



Agree. They are just polluting less. I have a friend who has solar panels on his roof. And they drive two electric cars. He is pretty close to driving without pollution. There must have been some in the construction of his car and roof panels, but nowhere near as much as, say, me with my two gas cars.

How many billions of barrels of oil would we save if all Americans did what my friend does?
link to original post



They do not pollute less, just different. Thing is, most people cannot do what your friend does. Most houses do not face direct south to get the benefit of the solar panels. More and more HOAs are trying to make getting them hard because various Yuppies do not like how they look. You need a big suburban home to collect enough sunlight to get the power for the cars. And the commute comes in. Does your friend live in the same 20 minute city you do? He gets to a longer commute things change.

I will repeat, I do not care if someone prefers an EV. But I am tired of the mandates and the ideas we can simply convert over. As to the owners, once online one suggested they do not pollute because electricity does not pollute. They thought it came out of the outlet like magic!

As to bbl of oil saved, the same EV owners are usually against fracking, which is how CO2 reductions have happened.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SOOPOO
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December 20th, 2023 at 5:21:34 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
link to original post



Agree. They are just polluting less. I have a friend who has solar panels on his roof. And they drive two electric cars. He is pretty close to driving without pollution. There must have been some in the construction of his car and roof panels, but nowhere near as much as, say, me with my two gas cars.

How many billions of barrels of oil would we save if all Americans did what my friend does?
link to original post



They do not pollute less, just different. Thing is, most people cannot do what your friend does. Most houses do not face direct south to get the benefit of the solar panels. More and more HOAs are trying to make getting them hard because various Yuppies do not like how they look. You need a big suburban home to collect enough sunlight to get the power for the cars. And the commute comes in. Does your friend live in the same 20 minute city you do? He gets to a longer commute things change.

I will repeat, I do not care if someone prefers an EV. But I am tired of the mandates and the ideas we can simply convert over. As to the owners, once online one suggested they do not pollute because electricity does not pollute. They thought it came out of the outlet like magic!

As to bbl of oil saved, the same EV owners are usually against fracking, which is how CO2 reductions have happened.
link to original post



I believe they pollute less and different. But agree with most of the rest.
He has very short commute. When weather appropriate, he bike rides! His long drives are to golf in Akron (NY). Half hour each way. His car is a Volt which if going over 200 miles uses an ICE. He says he uses gas only a few times a year.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 5:22:45 AM permalink
Fewer and fewer young men are going to college, now represent only 42% of students at 4-year schools

For some reason the article looks chopped at the end. But this is very interesting. Women outnumbering men 3:2 at colleges. First thought of course is that majoring in husbandry is now far less viable. More seems to be in play.

The drop of men is five times that of women the last 10 or so years. And men say they are not going because they do not see the value. Women say they are not going because of cost.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 5:26:47 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
link to original post



Agree. They are just polluting less. I have a friend who has solar panels on his roof. And they drive two electric cars. He is pretty close to driving without pollution. There must have been some in the construction of his car and roof panels, but nowhere near as much as, say, me with my two gas cars.

How many billions of barrels of oil would we save if all Americans did what my friend does?
link to original post



They do not pollute less, just different. Thing is, most people cannot do what your friend does. Most houses do not face direct south to get the benefit of the solar panels. More and more HOAs are trying to make getting them hard because various Yuppies do not like how they look. You need a big suburban home to collect enough sunlight to get the power for the cars. And the commute comes in. Does your friend live in the same 20 minute city you do? He gets to a longer commute things change.

I will repeat, I do not care if someone prefers an EV. But I am tired of the mandates and the ideas we can simply convert over. As to the owners, once online one suggested they do not pollute because electricity does not pollute. They thought it came out of the outlet like magic!

As to bbl of oil saved, the same EV owners are usually against fracking, which is how CO2 reductions have happened.
link to original post



I believe they pollute less and different. But agree with most of the rest.
He has very short commute. When weather appropriate, he bike rides! His long drives are to golf in Akron (NY). Half hour each way. His car is a Volt which if going over 200 miles uses an ICE. He says he uses gas only a few times a year.
link to original post



Being a Volt changes things. Needs far less charge. The Volt was the right idea but typical wrong GM execution. BTW, it is not "going over 200 miles" on a Volt. A Volt can go about 30 miles on a charge, then needs gas. Less in on a typical WNY cold winter day. And that battery will only last a few years in a hot place like Phoenix.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
mcallister3200
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December 20th, 2023 at 6:00:43 AM permalink
Generally speaking, the people who pollute less/more efficiently also consume much more than the average person, more or less balancing it out. EV/solar use is at all time highs, meanwhile energy consumption/emissions outputs also all time highs….doesn’t SEEM to make sense.

Some of this is developing nations having increased demand for energy and no infrastructure for EV’s etc. But it’s also largely that if energy becomes more efficient/cheap for someone to use, in general, the demand and consumption of energy also rise to eliminate any real savings.
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 6:07:28 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Generally speaking, the people who pollute less/more efficiently also consume much more than the average person, more or less balancing it out. EV/solar use is at all time highs, meanwhile energy consumption/emissions outputs also all time highs….doesn’t SEEM to make sense.

Some of this is developing nations having increased demand for energy and no infrastructure for EV’s etc. But it’s also largely that if energy becomes more efficient/cheap for someone to use, in general, the demand and consumption of energy also rise to eliminate any real savings.
link to original post



I can kind of see that and have lived the examples. Hybrids have been a good example. People buy a new hybrid but live in a bigger place. All because they can afford it. Good for them, Meanwhile someone driving a few year old subcompact and living in a small place emits less on net. People buy an EV and plug it in inside the 2 car garage of their McMansion, all the while thinking they are saving the planet.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
billryan
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December 20th, 2023 at 6:20:03 AM permalink
As opposed to people like you who do nothing and seem proud of it?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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December 20th, 2023 at 6:30:34 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: billryan


Let me understand this.
You hand an 18 year old $2.2Million and you believe he will withdraw $88,000 a year and live on the 60K after taxes?



Absolutely doable in this country.

Quote:

Never buy a house, never buy a new car? Never buy a motorcycle or a boat?



Why wouldn't you be able to buy a house or a car? With a $60k NET income you can easily afford a mortgage and a car. And like I said before, if you have a spouse/partner/roommate/whatever, it's even more affordable.

Quote:

Retired people take out 4% but they have Social Security and other investments. The discussion is about being wealthy. Do you think 60K a year lets anyone live a wealthy lifestyle? Maybe in Oaxaca or San Salvador, but not in this country.
link to original post



Okay, I'll concede that $60k a year net is probably not "wealthy," but it IS comfortable living in many parts of the US unless you are financially irresponsible.

Quote: billryan

I've no doubt he will buy a car, a house, a boat and or a motorcycle, and get himself into a horrible cash flow situation. I'd say it is 50-50 he's broke by forty.
link to original post



The point is that mathematically a person can live off of $2.2 million forever. Of course in the real world many 18 year olds would totally screw that up, but that's not what I'm arguing.
link to original post




You could live off a lot less than two million dollars. Most people do, but they aren't wealthy. To be in the top 1%, you need an annual income of close to $700,000. In most cases, if you don't have a salary, that requires a portfolio of about ten million dollars.
IN NYC or the high-dollar zipcodes of California and Virginia, it takes well over a million dollars annually to be in the top 1%. On the other hand, there are many states where a $500,000 annual income puts you in the top 1%.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
rxwine
rxwine
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December 20th, 2023 at 6:32:48 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman



I do not see Musk "caring about what happens top the earth" very much. If he did he would not be making cars that require mining several tons of material just to make thge batteries they require.
link to original post



You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If he was making gasoline powered cars people would be screaming that he's poisoning the atmosphere. So he makes electric cars that don't poison the atmosphere and people are screaming that he's mining too much stuff from the Earth. No matter what you do you can't win so you just do what you do and hope some people go along with it.

I just read an article about five reasons why people hate Elon Musk. The number one reason was he mistreats employees, which is said about most high profile companies. And I swear number two was 'he makes mean Tweets' and number three was 'he's a billionaire'.
Does this sound familiar? LOL
link to original post



I get that you have to mine or drill for resources. I am just tired of the EV believers thinking they are somehow "not polluting" because they drive an EV.
link to original post



Agree. They are just polluting less. I have a friend who has solar panels on his roof. And they drive two electric cars. He is pretty close to driving without pollution. There must have been some in the construction of his car and roof panels, but nowhere near as much as, say, me with my two gas cars.

How many billions of barrels of oil would we save if all Americans did what my friend does?
link to original post



They do not pollute less, just different. Thing is, most people cannot do what your friend does. Most houses do not face direct south to get the benefit of the solar panels. More and more HOAs are trying to make getting them hard because various Yuppies do not like how they look. You need a big suburban home to collect enough sunlight to get the power for the cars. And the commute comes in. Does your friend live in the same 20 minute city you do? He gets to a longer commute things change.

I will repeat, I do not care if someone prefers an EV. But I am tired of the mandates and the ideas we can simply convert over. As to the owners, once online one suggested they do not pollute because electricity does not pollute. They thought it came out of the outlet like magic!

As to bbl of oil saved, the same EV owners are usually against fracking, which is how CO2 reductions have happened.
link to original post



I believe they pollute less and different. But agree with most of the rest.
He has very short commute. When weather appropriate, he bike rides! His long drives are to golf in Akron (NY). Half hour each way. His car is a Volt which if going over 200 miles uses an ICE. He says he uses gas only a few times a year.
link to original post



Not to bring up the other site, but I believe it was Tanko that directed me to an article that broke down the long term life of cars, to prove that electric was costing more, but the article actually concluded that opposite at the end of it, though at first I thought it was making the same case against electric. One of the differences, not pointed out, is electric still have a lot of refinement to go,before we declare it defeated. Everyone not observing that innovation of combustion engines has been going on for a century or more. Way way, more time. Sure we will likely keep using hybrid energy energy sources. Way too soon to declare electric dead.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
mcallister3200
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December 20th, 2023 at 7:06:12 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: mcallister3200

Generally speaking, the people who pollute less/more efficiently also consume much more than the average person, more or less balancing it out. EV/solar use is at all time highs, meanwhile energy consumption/emissions outputs also all time highs….doesn’t SEEM to make sense.

Some of this is developing nations having increased demand for energy and no infrastructure for EV’s etc. But it’s also largely that if energy becomes more efficient/cheap for someone to use, in general, the demand and consumption of energy also rise to eliminate any real savings.
link to original post



I can kind of see that and have lived the examples. Hybrids have been a good example. People buy a new hybrid but live in a bigger place. All because they can afford it. Good for them, Meanwhile someone driving a few year old subcompact and living in a small place emits less on net. People buy an EV and plug it in inside the 2 car garage of their McMansion, all the while thinking they are saving the planet.
link to original post



Just human nature, we all do it. Make the want/emotion based decision, then find the logic to rationalize and justify it whether it’s before or after the fact, the decision was already made then hunt for the logic. We judge ourselves based on our intent and everyone else based on their actions.

That said, I don’t think anyone with money is buying a Chevy Volt based on want/emotion….it’s someone who isn’t a car person in the first place.
billryan
billryan
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December 20th, 2023 at 9:13:50 AM permalink
The FHA just dropped the requirement to purchase a multi-unit house or small apartment complex to 5% down. Being a landlord is one of the simplest ways to build wealth, but it usually takes at least a 25% deposit to get an FHA loan, and you need to provide complex rental formulas to qualify.
I did some quick math, and a $30,000 downpayment could buy a five-unit building in my area for $600,000 and produce a positive cash flow while paying the loan off in 10-13 years. Or a person could live in the biggest unit for free and pay it off in just over twenty years.
It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Forewarned is forearmed.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 9:20:03 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200



That said, I don’t think anyone with money is buying a Chevy Volt based on want/emotion….it’s someone who isn’t a car person in the first place.
link to original post



Yes and no. The Volt was hardly great, but a few might have been sold for the historical nature of it. It's Cadillac twin was a disaster though.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 9:27:40 AM permalink
40% of student loan borrowers have not made a payment since they restarted on Oct 1.

This is not a good thing.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 20th, 2023 at 10:14:21 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

40% of student loan borrowers have not made a payment since they restarted on Oct 1.

This is not a good thing.
link to original post



They're waiting for their final notices hoping for a Christmas miracle that's never going to come. Like somebody said the other day college graduates want blue collar non college graduates to pay for their college bills. Never going to happen.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
TigerWu
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December 20th, 2023 at 10:55:13 AM permalink
Imagine giving millions of teenagers and twenty-somethings with no jobs and no credit histories loans for tens of thousands of dollars each and not thinking it's going to turn into a huge s***show in some way.
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 11:09:41 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman

40% of student loan borrowers have not made a payment since they restarted on Oct 1.

This is not a good thing.
link to original post



They're waiting for their final notices hoping for a Christmas miracle that's never going to come. Like somebody said the other day college graduates want blue collar non college graduates to pay for their college bills. Never going to happen.
link to original post



Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
billryan
billryan
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December 20th, 2023 at 11:58:43 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman

40% of student loan borrowers have not made a payment since they restarted on Oct 1.

This is not a good thing.
link to original post



They're waiting for their final notices hoping for a Christmas miracle that's never going to come. Like somebody said the other day college graduates want blue collar non college graduates to pay for their college bills. Never going to happen.
link to original post



Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



The younger generation doesn't worship at the altar of Fair Issac like their elders.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 12:03:10 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman

40% of student loan borrowers have not made a payment since they restarted on Oct 1.

This is not a good thing.
link to original post



They're waiting for their final notices hoping for a Christmas miracle that's never going to come. Like somebody said the other day college graduates want blue collar non college graduates to pay for their college bills. Never going to happen.
link to original post



Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



The younger generation doesn't worship at the altar of Fair Issac like their elders.
link to original post



You may be correct. I was once in a college bookstore Starbucks (it was near where I worked) and one kid was bragging his FICO hit 700.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
TigerWu
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December 20th, 2023 at 12:25:52 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



There won't be any penalties for delayed/non-payments until late next year.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 12:32:44 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



There won't be any penalties for delayed/non-payments until late next year.
link to original post



Not the same thing as reporting a late. You can have no fee for being late but still report it to the bureaus.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
TigerWu
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December 20th, 2023 at 1:07:22 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



There won't be any penalties for delayed/non-payments until late next year.
link to original post



Not the same thing as reporting a late. You can have no fee for being late but still report it to the bureaus.
link to original post



"Until next September, borrowers will be protected from the harshest consequences of missed payments, such as delinquency, default, and mandatory collections."

That's their wording. Do with that what you will, but it sounds like they won't even be reporting late payments until next year.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 20th, 2023 at 1:28:52 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



There won't be any penalties for delayed/non-payments until late next year.
link to original post



Not the same thing as reporting a late. You can have no fee for being late but still report it to the bureaus.
link to original post



"Until next September, borrowers will be protected from the harshest consequences of missed payments, such as delinquency, default, and mandatory collections."

That's their wording. Do with that what you will, but it sounds like they won't even be reporting late payments until next year.
link to original post



Thanks for the research. I see nothing on reporting so maybe they luck out a few months. Less competition when I buy my next rental.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
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December 20th, 2023 at 1:40:19 PM permalink
Quote:

Doctors. discovered that the Christmas period is associated with a significantly increased risk of penile fractures – a medical emergency in which the erection-producing regions of the penis snap, usually as a result of forceful bending during over-enthusiastic sexual intercourse.

“This injury tends to occur during wild sex – particularly in positions where you’re not in direct eye contact [with your partner], such as the reverse cowgirl,” said Dr Nikolaos Pyrgides, a urologist at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich, who led the research.

The fractures are often heralded by an audible crack, followed by severe pain, rapid loss of erection and severe swelling and bruising. “When [patients] present to their doctor their penis often looks like an eggplant,” Pyrgides said.

Suspecting that the intimacy and euphoria of the festive season might be a risk factor for this type of injury, Pyrgides and his colleagues examined hospital data for 3,421 men who sustained penile fractures in Germany between 2005 and 2021.

The study – the first to explore seasonal patterns for this type of injury – found that such injuries were indeed more common over Christmas. In fact, “if every day was like Christmas, 43% more penile fractures would have occurred in Germany from 2005 on”, Pyrgides said.

There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
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December 20th, 2023 at 1:48:03 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AZDuffman

Hopefully it is getting reported as lates on their credit bureaus.
link to original post



There won't be any penalties for delayed/non-payments until late next year.
link to original post



Not the same thing as reporting a late. You can have no fee for being late but still report it to the bureaus.
link to original post



"Until next September, borrowers will be protected from the harshest consequences of missed payments, such as delinquency, default, and mandatory collections."

That's their wording. Do with that what you will, but it sounds like they won't even be reporting late payments until next year.
link to original post



They are just screwing themselves, all it means is having to pay even more in interest and the payments will drag out even longer. But they're young and stupid what would you expect. When my daughter bought her house 20 years ago she had it totally paid off in 5 years because they worked their asses off to do it. But then she teaches college level math, and that helped her make that decision.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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December 20th, 2023 at 2:32:41 PM permalink
Biden has lost the support of these deadbeats as he couldn't deliver on his promise of absolving them of debt.

Expect him to try to woo them back.
"What, me worry?"
rxwine
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December 20th, 2023 at 2:59:28 PM permalink
If there is no penalty, why would they pay before the Holiday season, trips and expenses are over?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
DRich
DRich
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December 20th, 2023 at 4:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman



The Tesla customer base borders on a cult. I said about 2-3 years ago that we will soon see if people want EVs or want Teslas. It has been the later for the most part. The stock valuation makes no sense. But the believers seem to keep thinking it does.



I have no idea how one would even try to value Tesla. I think they are a good company with some great intellectual property but how do you value the next 18 years? I think they will be the most successful car company over the next 18 years, but my guess is they won't even be manufacturing cars by then. My guess is that they will just be the patent factory licensing all their IP to the actual manufacturers.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
SOOPOO
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December 20th, 2023 at 4:36:27 PM permalink
Quote: DRich



I have no idea how one would even try to value Tesla.



I can help. It’s actually quite easy. You multiply the closing price x the number of shares outstanding. That is EXACTLY the value of Tesla.

I think what you meant to say is you don’t know what Tesla will be worth on some future date. There are hundreds of ‘expert analysts’ that will hazard a guess.
DRich
DRich
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December 20th, 2023 at 4:44:44 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: DRich



I have no idea how one would even try to value Tesla.



I can help. It’s actually quite easy. You multiply the closing price x the number of shares outstanding. That is EXACTLY the value of Tesla.

I think what you meant to say is you don’t know what Tesla will be worth on some future date. There are hundreds of ‘expert analysts’ that will hazard a guess.
link to original post



I must slightly disagree. I don't think you can use the closing price as that number is no longer accurate. I would think you would have to use the most current price as there are plenty of trades happening off market.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
unJon
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December 20th, 2023 at 4:50:29 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman



The Tesla customer base borders on a cult. I said about 2-3 years ago that we will soon see if people want EVs or want Teslas. It has been the later for the most part. The stock valuation makes no sense. But the believers seem to keep thinking it does.



I have no idea how one would even try to value Tesla. I think they are a good company with some great intellectual property but how do you value the next 18 years? I think they will be the most successful car company over the next 18 years, but my guess is they won't even be manufacturing cars by then. My guess is that they will just be the patent factory licensing all their IP to the actual manufacturers.
link to original post



I thought all Tesla IP was open source. Is that incorrect?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
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