2020 Election
Quote: VCUSkyhawkBilly, please find ONE example of where I defend Donald Trump. I have consistently said that although I tend to vote Republican I do not like Trump, did not vote for him, and do not approve of his antics. This is the second time you have falsely accused me of something and I dont very much appreciate it.
I already said that I didnt follow that news story closely, I was repeating what I heard. If she didnt, then she didnt.
Seriously, who the f*ck pissed in your Cheerios? It certainly wasn't me. How about you back off my ass.
This is the modus operandi of many of the liberals or progressive's or anti-Trumpers on this forum. If you dare to mention a single thing that you believe Donald Trump has done or caused that has been positive, you are just labeled a pro trump blah blah blah. I too did not vote for him and are often embarrassed by his actions, tweets, antics, etc... But when his policies are better than the alternative Dem policies, I will state it loud and clear.
Quote: SOOPOOThis is the modus operandi of many of the liberals or progressive's or anti-Trumpers on this forum. If you dare to mention a single thing that you believe Donald Trump has done or caused that has been positive, you are just labeled a pro trump blah blah blah. I too did not vote for him and are often embarrassed by his actions, tweets, antics, etc... But when his policies are better than the alternative Dem policies, I will state it loud and clear.
I actually think it's made all the more ironic by the fact that the quoted post by VCUSkyhawk openly disparaged Trump...only for VCU to get accused, somehow, of constantly defending Trump.
Anyway, I like BillRyan, but I almost wonder if everyone should get out a piece of paper or maybe put together a Google Doc on all the posters here listing what their positions actually are.
Speaking to and of both sides, I grow increasingly concerned that objectivity is no longer possible.
Quote: AxelWolfTrump probably has more Indian in him than she does.
Mixing red and white together makes pink, not orange.
Quote: mcallister3200Mission I am never voting for you no matter how many times you smash the thank you button
That's called "playing the odds."
Quote: SOOPOOThis is the modus operandi of many of the liberals or progressive's or anti-Trumpers on this forum. If you dare to mention a single thing that you believe Donald Trump has done or caused that has been positive, you are just labeled a pro trump blah blah blah. I too did not vote for him and are often embarrassed by his actions, tweets, antics, etc... But when his policies are better than the alternative Dem policies, I will state it loud and clear.
If you believe he is a better choice than going democrat I believe that fits the definition of Pro-Trump
Will you be voting for him again? Someone anti-trump would not
Quote: darkozIf you believe he is a better choice than going democrat I believe that fits the definition of Pro-Trump
Will you be voting for him again? Someone anti-trump would not
Let me be clear. While I will not vote for him, I do not think ill of the ones who will. He has implemented many things I agree with. He has put two Justice on the SCOTUS that I approve of. That said, I can not condone his lies, his rants, and honestly his attacks on the press. It use to be that conservative just understood that the media generally leans left and let the unfair criticism roll off their shoulders (No, I am not saying all the criticism against Trump by the press is unfair). Trump needs to learn to do the same. He wont though.
I just hope we can get back to more traditionally conservative people in the republican party. Actually I wish the party would start to lean a bit to the left on some social issues.
Quote: VCUSkyhawk
I just hope we can get back to more traditionally conservative people in the republican party. Actually I wish the party would start to lean a bit to the left on some social issues.
Never happen, you'd lose the White Evangelical Christians who, a large percentage of, LOVE voting against their own Economic interests. Anyway, the social issues is where you get them. Were the Democrats the socially conservative party, you'd basically flip all of these people and they may well be even more motivated to get out and vote.
It's just a priority trade-off and not even as begrudgingly as one might expect. Those Bible-pounders love their Christian moral set. They also love telling other people what to do.
Could you imagine if the big companies could do what they want from a labor standpoint completely unchecked? You'd have twelve year olds working in factories for $1.37/hour without paid lunches or breaks. I think it's undeniable. I've had past employers outright commit illegal acts from an employment standpoint and your choices were to put up with it or not have a job. These employers, one and all, have been Republicans.
Anyway, the rich will kowtow to the White Evangelicals because they're in a position of being able to do most whatever the hell they want to anyway regardless of what the laws are. In terms of Socially Conservative laws, the White Evangelicals have the rich backing them and are still losing that batlle little by little. Mostly because too many of them are dying off and not being replaced.
That's what Libertarianism is for, of course. Economically Conservative (in general) and socially Liberal. I honestly don't even know how Economically Liberal I am anymore, if I'm honest. Mostly because there's no practical way to get the country to where I would want it to be in that regard, you can only play with the hand you have.
Quote: Mission146Never happen, you'd lose the White Evangelical Christians
They're a dying breed.
Gonna be a few more decades, but we'll get to a point in the U.S. where that breed of radical religion is seen as a sideshow, and not a political powerhouse.
That's my opinion, anyway.
Quote: TigerWu“I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian.” -- Trump
"Who cares? I didn't say that. Nope, you better read it again." -- Also Trump
She took the test, she is not an Indian. Trump correct yet again!
Quote: TigerWu
Nope. His actions are not surprising, it's the fact that his supporters don't care is what's troubling. He lies about the stupidest, most mundane, easily provable facts, for literally no reason whatsoever, and with no perceivable gain, and they trust him with running a country? I can't figure it out....
You cannot figure it out because you are a liberal is not living in our world. Trump cares more about American kids who have to live in schools flooded with illegal alien kids than he cares about illegal alien families being "separated" because they broke the law. Trump did not promise to destroy the coal industry, a major part of the economy in many places. He sees we are tired of being made fools of in trade agreements and DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT! He got us out of an awful GW treaty that would cost trillions of dollars and even the UN said would do little to nothing.
I have talked to several people, all unrelated to one another, who said that their business picked up literally the day after the election. Trump not only promised to get rid of burdensome regulations, HE DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT! This chafes liberals who think writing regulations is a great thing and near a bodily function. Those of us who have to live with this know better.
He cut taxes and ensured that the blue states who love high local taxes will now pay their fair share.
IOW, we trust him because he does what he says. We trust him because he cares about people like us. We trust him because he came up in the real world, not a university or government. We do not care about a bombastic personality.
We see the alternative, and what the other side now openly wants is scary. What they will do to get it is even scarier.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkIt use to be that conservative just understood that the media generally leans left and let the unfair criticism roll off their shoulders (No, I am not saying all the criticism against Trump by the press is unfair). Trump needs to learn to do the same. He wont though.
And as they let it roll off, they lost credibility and support. We love Trump because he acts like a man and fights back. Instead of the media killing his support, he is killing what little support the media has left. Maybe they learn and practice actual journalism. I doubt it, but there is hope. FNC has shown what having a balanced newscast will do for ratings. You would think others would learn.
IOW, Trump saw what happened to Bush43. What happened to Romney. Even McCain. And he learned from it.
Did anyone see Trump just handle the bias of Leslie Stahl? My favorite line, was when Trump was talking about how many people trying to sneak in and said it was his fault for making the economy so strong that everyone wants to come here.
That is why he is Trump, and nobody else is!
I really do feel like the republican party is lost. This is not coming from a RINO. I honestly believe in the value of conservatism, however the fact remains we need leaders of our party that are not sleezeballs. In the end I will take the Ben Shaprio route. I will applaud him when he does right (Which there has been a fair amount of policy wise) and criticize him when he does wrong.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkAZ, no disrespect, but I whole heartedly disagree. Bush was a great president in my opinion. He did some things I didn't care for, but all in all I thought he was a good man with a good heart. The media tortured him to no end, and he managed to rise above it. Trump just comes off as petty calling every story that is even slightly negative "Fake News".
I really do feel like the republican party is lost. This is not coming from a RINO. I honestly believe in the value of conservatism, however the fact remains we need leaders of our party that are not sleezeballs. In the end I will take the Ben Shaprio route. I will applaud him when he does right (Which there has been a fair amount of policy wise) and criticize him when he does wrong.
But he didn’t “rise above it.” He lost his ability to govern. And that is what the other side wants. For the conservative to sit there and take it until they lose their support.
If the gop is “lost” we are doomed because the Democrat Party has gone mentally ill. Part of my prediction for a very violent 2020s I guess.
Quote: AZDuffmanBut he didn’t “rise above it.” He lost his ability to govern.
I don't think we can attribute this all to the media. The fact is the bulk of his presidency we were bogged down into two wars. That will tend to dictate how the rest of your policy goes.
Quote: AZDuffmanIf the gop is “lost” we are doomed because the Democrat Party has gone mentally ill.
Agreed.
Quote: AZDuffmanShe took the test, she is not an Indian. Trump correct yet again!
Of course Trump disgraced himself claiming in the most bald faced lie ever he never made a bet.
Quote: AZDuffmanYou cannot figure it out because you are a liberal is not living in our world.
I don't know how many times I've told you this, but I'm not a liberal. Or a Democrat.
The rest of your post just made me giggle a little.
Talk about not living in the real world....
Quote: RSTrump should make a donation for $3,906.25 (1/256'th of a million) just to spite Pocahontas.
That would be hilarious.
He's too cheap to even donate that much, though.
Quote: AZDuffmanIf the gop is “lost” we are doomed because the Democrat Party has gone mentally ill.
They're both lost. Which is why I associate with neither. But for some reason you still do.
EDIT: Oh, man.... Cherokee Nation issues statement on Elizabeth Warren
She should probably just shut up about this and lay low for a week or two... haha...
Quote: TigerWuI don't know how many times I've told you this, but I'm not a liberal.
Your posts show otherwise.
Quote: FinsRuleWarren wins primary
Trump wins with virtually no challenge.
Trump wins election again with losing popular vote.
GOP wins back house and keeps Senate.
Everyone on here complains that everything is so unfair to Republicans.
Warren is toast. Predictions can go south quickly.
Quote: FinsRuleWarren is toast. Predictions can go south quickly.
It’s waaaaaaaay too early to make any predictions.
Elizabeth Warren would definitely not be my first choice for the Dem nominee.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkI don't think we can attribute this all to the media. The fact is the bulk of his presidency we were bogged down into two wars. That will tend to dictate how the rest of your policy goes.
Yes, Iraq went bad. But he lost the communication battle at home huge. He let he media set the narrative. Best example is accepting their premise in the “mission accomplished” banner. Trump would have said, “we got rid of saddam like we intended. You’re gd right the mission was accomplished!” Then the media would have had a collective pants wetting.
Bush41 did the same with what was a mild recession. They made it out to b the end of the world. He accepted their premise. And got clobbered.
Quote: ams288It’s waaaaaaaay too early to make any predictions.
Elizabeth Warren would definitely not be my first choice for the Dem nominee.
I see her as too weak. Especially to go head-to-head with Trump's nonsense. No way she'll be the nominee. And she's not helping herself now, either.
Then again, we're now living in an era where a screw-up that would have ended political careers 5-10+ years ago is forgotten about in 12 hours, so who knows what will happen in the next year and a half.
Quote: AZDuffmanHe let he media set the narrative. .
Trump's longtime overall low approval rating shows the fantasy of your conclusion that Trump has been setting the narrative,
Average for all elected presidents' 7th quarter 54
Trump Term average to date 7th quarter 39
https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
Quote: TigerWuI see her as too weak. Especially to go head-to-head with Trump's nonsense. No way she'll be the nominee. And she's not helping herself now, either.
Then again, we're now living in an era where a screw-up that would have ended political careers 5-10+ years ago is forgotten about in 12 hours, so who knows what will happen in the next year and a half.
It will be Kamala Harris. She's the only one tough enough. Warren is too nice. So is Klobuchar.
Biden could manage it.
Quote: rxwineTrump's longtime overall low approval rating shows the fantasy of your conclusion that Trump has been setting the narrative,
Average for all elected presidents' 7th quarter 54
Trump Term average to date 7th quarter 39
https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
His approval rating has been gaining veerrrrrry sloowwwly over the last year, but he's still the least popular President in decades. If he wins another four years he might be able to crack 50%.
Quote: rxwineTrump's longtime overall low approval rating shows the fantasy of your conclusion that Trump has been setting the narrative,
Average for all elected presidents' 7th quarter 54
Trump Term average to date 7th quarter 39
https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
By the same pols that had Hillary winning in a walk. If he is so unpopular, why are his rallies so filled with people and energy? Keep believing the lamestreams. It got your side so far the last 8 years.
Quote: AZDuffmanBy the same pols that had Hillary winning in a walk. If he is so unpopular, why are his rallies so filled with people and energy? Keep believing the lamestreams. It got your side so far the last 8 years.
Trump and Clinton were the two most divisive major party Presidential candidates in the history of this country, I think we can agree to that.
That having been stipulated, Donald Trump won 46.1% of the popular vote, which means that 53.9% of the popular vote went to any person not named, "Donald Trump."
Let's assume that everyone who did not vote for him also does not approve of the job he is doing. That alone gets you pretty close to where the polls are at right now. In fact, his aggregate disapproval percentage:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
Is 52.4%, which theoretically means that some of the people who did not vote for him do not explicitly disapprove of him. His current aggregate approval is 41.9%, which means that not everyone who did vote for him explicitly approves of the job he's doing.
Is it really so hard for you to believe that the polls are close on this one?
The polls basically called it when it comes to the popular vote, really only kind of whiffing on a few states. I think all of the results, national and state by state (for almost all states) were within the margin of error.
If you followed everything leading up to the election, his path to victory was ALWAYS through the Electoral College.
In short, the polls (taken as a whole) were NOT wrong, the assumptions that people took from the polls were wrong.
Quote: AZDuffmanBy the same pols that had Hillary winning in a walk
Well in that case, if he has consistently good numbers we can dismiss those as well. Your rules, your loss.
Quote:. If he is so unpopular, why are his rallies so filled with people and energy? Keep believing the lamestreams. It got your side so far the last 8 years.
Who ever said sideshow Don is not an entertainer who can draw a crowd?
Quote: Mission146
If you followed everything leading up to the election, his path to victory was ALWAYS through the Electoral College.
Uh, that is ALWAYS the path to victory.All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Quote: AZDuffman
Uh, that is ALWAYS the path to victory.
Weak. You know what I meant. The polls didn't miss in popular vote, the public just mistranslated that into Electoral College win.
In fact, I wrote an article about how good of a value I thought Trump was in the betting markets on here. I wrote another one for either LCB or LSB, maybe two of them. These would have been written before the election, of course.
Quote: darkozIf you believe he is a better choice than going democrat I believe that fits the definition of Pro-Trump
Will you be voting for him again? Someone anti-trump would not
It hurts my brain to respond...... I JUST POSTED that I did not vote for him (I wrote my own name in) but you ask me if I'll be voting for him again. It is hard to argue with someone unfamiliar with the definition of the word 'again'.
But you know what, i'm not convinced that they're really becoming Democrats. I think they are taking a bullet, and sending a message to the GOP. When Trump and his most ardent sycophants are gone, they'll be ready to embrace the Republican party once again. Most people don't abandon long held values so easily, but I can see how they might justify a temporary abandonment feeling a urgency for a colon cleansing, so to speak.
Quote: rxwineCNN the fake news channel had 5 republicans, some of whom said they had registered as Democrats because of Trump, and were voting straight Democratic tickets in the mid term.
But you know what, i'm not convinced that they're really becoming Democrats. I think they are taking a bullet, and sending a message to the GOP. When Trump and his most ardent sycophants are gone, they'll be ready to embrace the Republican party once again. Most people don't abandon long held values so easily, but I can see how they might justify a temporary abandonment feeling a urgency for a colon cleansing, so to speak.
This is an old thing and goes back to 2000 and Bush. On the news and in forums. The thing is this kind of person was NEVER really a Republican. Online it is some weird game they like playing. "See, I was a republican, but this guy has so turned me off, if you want me back you had better get behind someone more moderate!"
So the were republicans but "because of Trump" they are registering to vote for the party that is running on a platform of higher taxes, more regulation, open borders, preferences based on skin color, and not liking someone being grounds for impeachment.
CNN expects people to believe this?
Quote: AZDuffmanBy the same pols that had Hillary winning in a walk. If he is so unpopular, why are his rallies so filled with people and energy? Keep believing the lamestreams. It got your side so far the last 8 years.
Trump is going to Texas to do a rally. Is he doing it in any of the dozen large pro or college football stadiums nearby?
Nope. It's being held in an 8500 seat arena.
Quote: billryanTrump is going to Texas to do a rally. Is he doing it in any of the dozen large pro or college football stadiums nearby?
Nope. It's being held in an 8500 seat arena.
DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT 90,000 SEATS SHORT OF TEXAS’S BIGGEST STADIUM
Quote:President Donald Trump announced at the end of August that he would be holding a major rally for Republican Senator Ted Cruz in “the biggest stadium in Texas we can find.” But Trump’s campaign on Monday night said the rally would instead be held at NRG Arena, which holds only 8,000 seats.
Quote: AZDuffman
So the were republicans but "because of Trump" they are registering to vote for the party that is running on a platform of higher taxes, more regulation, open borders, preferences based on skin color, and not liking someone being grounds for impeachment.
CNN expects people to believe this?
This is one point where we completely agree. I have always found this talking point absurd. While I may not care for Trump the man, I do align with many of the policy's he has implemented.
I would never in a million years vote for the likes of a Hillary or Bernie (although Bernie seems like a decent fellow)
Quote: VCUSkyhawkThis is one point where we completely agree. I have always found this talking point absurd. While I may not care for Trump the man, I do align with many of the policy's he has implemented.
I would never in a million years vote for the likes of a Hillary or Bernie (although Bernie seems like a decent fellow)
That point was addressed. Never seen someone abandon a candidate on just one issue they feel strongly enough about? A war, roe v wade, guns? In this case character, Some thought more Republicans should stand up to him. Some thought he was dangerous, Despite that they still liked some of his policies, but they were still abandoning the party.
Quote: rxwineThat point was addressed. Never seen someone abandon a candidate on just one issue they feel strongly enough about? A war, roe v wade, guns? In this case character, Some thought more Republicans should stand up to him. Some thought he was dangerous, Despite that they still liked some of his policies, but they were still abandoning the party.
Yeah, but if you are talking multiple items, you aren't talking about a person causing this. It is YOU. You have changed. The other candidate is generally the other side of the coin, so you may not like Trump's personality, but did HE suddenly cause whatever person to shift in their core beliefs like say Gun Rights, Abortion, Taxes, ect ect. It could be that that person was slowly evolving over time, like it seems to be the case with Babs. But to point to one person is pretty disingenuous in my opinion.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/16/pulse-of-the-people-voter-panel-independent-voter-gop-switch-party-camerota-pkg-newday-vpx.cnn
Quote: rxwineCNN the fake news channel had 5 republicans, some of whom said they had registered as Democrats because of Trump, and were voting straight Democratic tickets in the mid term.
But you know what, i'm not convinced that they're really becoming Democrats. I think they are taking a bullet, and sending a message to the GOP. When Trump and his most ardent sycophants are gone, they'll be ready to embrace the Republican party once again. Most people don't abandon long held values so easily, but I can see how they might justify a temporary abandonment feeling a urgency for a colon cleansing, so to speak.
This was the Republican Party I joined in 1976:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25843
The party left me long before I left the party. I hung in there, trying to be a voice for moderation and sensibility, for many years, while they continued to move, not just right, but into greed and obfuscation. Trump is the last straw, but not the only one - he's the logical, mentally ill result of the concentration of extremists into the dominant bloc within the party, that in turn pushed out millions of non-handout, non-dove members like me.
Where else are we to go? It's R vs D in nearly every race. Florida has closed primaries, as do many other states. This is tough love more than anything, correcting a power structure that approaches a dictatorship back to something more representative of actual voters.
Quote: AZDuffmanThis is an old thing and goes back to 2000 and Bush. On the news and in forums. The thing is this kind of person was NEVER really a Republican. Online it is some weird game they like playing. "See, I was a republican, but this guy has so turned me off, if you want me back you had better get behind someone more moderate!"
So the were republicans but "because of Trump" they are registering to vote for the party that is running on a platform of higher taxes, more regulation, open borders, preferences based on skin color, and not liking someone being grounds for impeachment.
CNN expects people to believe this?
Nonsense, as usual. See above.
Quote: beachbumbabsThis was the Republican Party I joined in 1976:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25843
I just skimmed through much of that.
Kind of funny that many.... MANY... points made in that '76 platform would almost be seen as "leftist extremism" by today's Republicans and conservatives.
I also disagree with some points, but even the ones I do disagree with are presented as positions that could be reasonably discussed and negotiated in a bipartisan manner.
In short, '70's Republicans seem very moderate and reasonable in comparison with what we have today.
I'm assuming the Democrat platform is similarly more moderate than today's, but I don't know.
Quote: beachbumbabsthat in turn pushed out millions of non-handout, non-dove members like me.
BBB, I hate to ask because I generally don't enjoy topical discussion of politics. I find that general discussions are more enjoyable, but I will ask none the less. How on earth do you consider the ACA NOT a handout? Subsidies by their very nature are handouts.
Quote: RogerKintYeah, it's greedy to want to keep more of what you earn but not greedy to take what someone else earns.
In order to make up for the progressive tax, everyone who is not in the very top percentile needs to start making payments to the wealthy.
Quote: RogerKintYeah, it's greedy to want to keep more of what you earn but not greedy to take what someone else earns.
It's greedy not to recognize that with great wealth facilitated by the laws and the people of this country, comes an equally great obligation to pay a significant amount of taxes. They support the infrastructure, defense, and administration of the country we share.
I recognize this, have paid federal taxes for over 40 years, and in my prime earning decades, they amounted to a sizable sum. I expect no less from other fortunate Americans.
Am I really the only taxpayer in America who resents Jared Kushner (for one recent example), in the return details they released via the NYT, getting a 4k refund by taking phantom losses against his earnings? Paying no federal taxes while living the superrich lifestyle? Seems hard to believe I'm alone in that.
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's greedy not to recognize that with great wealth facilitated by the laws and the people of this country, comes an equally great obligation to pay a significant amount of taxes.
I recognize this, have paid federal taxes for over 40 years, and in my prime earning decades, they amounted to a sizable sum. I expect no less from other fortunate Americans.
What you do with your hard-earned money is your business. If you choose to donate 100% of your income to the federal government I'm sure they'd be happy to have it. Instead of being a white slave for 3 months out of the year you could be one for 12 months. Everyone should have the exact same recognition as beachbumbabs or they're just plain greedy.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkBBB, I hate to ask because I generally don't enjoy topical discussion of politics. I find that general discussions are more enjoyable, but I will ask none the less. How on earth do you consider the ACA NOT a handout? Subsidies by their very nature are handouts.
I consider the actual ACA a pragmatic and practical solution to a problem that costs money no matter what. As originally conceived, that is, not the guts-ripped-out, politically-sabotaged mess we have now.
There's almost no point in having that discussion, because that system has never been properly implemented, corrected for actual inequities as they came up, or allowed to work as intended. That's the greed factor again.
The ACA was designed to clean off the leeches of non-competitive private insurers, exorbitant administrative costs of private insurers even in competitive markets, insane malpractice awards, gouging, for-profit hospital overcharges, denial of services and runaway costs of treatment. It's now, after all the sabotage, the worst of all worlds, with the remnants of the bill constraining some things while spreading inequity throughout the marketplace.
Had the ACA been allowed to develop as conceived, the net cost to the vast majority of Americans would have been lower than the federal tax-supported plus health care premiums we now pay. In return, the service would have been more administratively efficient and available to more Americans.
But the losers would have been the corporate moneymakers, shareholders, and litigation industry that have powerful lobbies and own a lot of state and federal public servants. Their greed derailed the ACA, to what I think is an unrecoverable amount.
So I can't say I support the ACA at all, because it doesn't exist except as a blame mechanism.
