2020 Election
But there are serious problems with a completely capitalistic health care system, which goes far beyond insurance.
An example of this - there is extreamly promising evidence that MDMA therapy is very effective in treating PTSD and other mental illnesses.
But things like that hardly get researched. If they cannot create a patented drug that you need to take for the rest of your life, there’s no money in it.
The lobbyists employed by big biz would have no power to lobby if government was smaller. The left wouldn't cry so hard about trump being elected if Trump had no power given to him by the left (and others).
Quote: SanchoPanza
Canadians flock to the U.S. for treatment by the tens of thousands:
" The institute asked the specialists to approximate the percentage of their patients who received non-emergency treatment outside of Canada in the previous 12 months. Based on that data, the institute estimates that 63,459 Canadians left the country for non-urgent medical care in 2016.
Okay? So? I already said people come to the U.S. for treatment. IF they can afford it. Now tell me how many people come to the U.S. because they want to pay for health insurance with a high deductible every month, "just in case" they need medical care here.
1.4 million Americans left the U.S. for medical care in 2016.
"Health care has become so expensive in the United States that a growing number of Americans (and their employers) are finding it more cost efficient to fly across the globe for certain medical procedures. The savings are so great — and the quality high enough — that a handful of American insurance companies are now encouraging the practice and covering the travel and treatment costs."
Quote:Yup, "success" is when people from around the globe flock to your shores for medical care.
Because we have good doctors and hospitals. Nobody is disputing that! And there are rich people in other places in the world that can afford to come here. I already said that. What does that have to do with our broken insurance system and spiraling medical costs? 45,000 people die a year in the U.S. because they can't afford medical care, despite the U.S. having the highest per capita expenditure for healthcare in the world. How is that a successful system? How do you now see that as a problem?
Quote:And you have not been able to cite even one of the "green" countries.
What are you talking about? I just listed off a bunch of them.
Quote: rxwineBecause unregulated allows one to cut corners, make unsafe working conditions for employees, and if you're clever you can hide shortcomings from consumers to beat down competition.
That has nothing to do with a level or fair playing field. That has to do with protection of the from unsafe practices, which I agree with. I'm not saying I necessarily or automatically agree with all safety regulations, but in general, I believe they are a good and necessary thing.
Quote: rxwineif everyone sells housing materials to specs, you don't find out years later your cheaper material is less durable, or the wall board was injected with formaldehyde that you were breathing, or other inferior look-a-like products were never verified as meeting a standard and were used instead.
Again, that'd be an unsafe practice. Nothing to do with a level playing field.
Quote: rxwineSure you can get instant feedback from rotten food and not buy, but how do you know if the medication you're taking for hair loss isn't increasing your chances for a stroke x 3 if no outside agency is inspecting?
I have no problem with regulations as far as keeping people safe or at the very least warnings. But what does that have to do with a level/fair playing field?
Quote: rxwineAwhile back a Chinese company was selling cheaper dog food, that was adulterated with a filler that was killing dogs. Took awhile to figure that out, meanwhile companies selling safe food lose business.
MAKING sure companies have to compete on a fair field doesn't come without costs. IF a company figures out how to give you better service or product on the fair field that's great for everyone. LIKEWISE, if employees all have to work under same conditions, you hopefully avoid being beaten by child labor, or employees paid barely enough to live,
Enforcing a fair field for competition is good for everyone.
Perhaps we need to determine what you mean by a "fair playing field", because everything above that you've described has to do with a company doing things that are unsafe/harmful/etc.
The only thing I can think of as far as a fair playing field would be regarding monopolization and the rise in tariffs, although I'm not so sure about the latter.
Quote: beachbumbabsWarren Buffett, Bill Gates, Paul Allen (RIP), Mark Cuban, Jeff Bezos, and I disagree with you, to name a few.
Noooo!,,,,,, Warren Buffet is the best (legal) tax avoider in HISTORY. He does not have bBerkshire Hathaway pay dividends, so his enormous growth in wealth has occurred tax free!!!! When he sells a share or two he pays capital gains at a lower rate. Because he SAYS he wants the rich to pay more taxes means NOTHING! His actions (wisely and legally) show he is just the BEST at avoiding paying taxes. Hypocrite. Liberal. Buffet.
Availability of affordable healthcare:
25% of Americans were very or somewhat satisfied, versus 43% of British and 57% of Canadians.
Quality of medical care:
48% of Americans were very or somewhat satisfied, versus 42% of British and 52% of Canadians.
So that supports what I've been saying; our QUALITY of healthcare is good, WHEN you can afford it.
Quote: SanchoPanzaOh yeah. Venezuela and Cuba are the two nearest examples of . . . government (socialist) total failure. Just look at your example of health care. Name any socialist country where people with means flock to for the best medical care. And that doesn't even touch on more fundamental food supply.
You have to understand where the left is coming from on government running healthcare. They think they will get an appointment to any doctor they want and all the care they want. They think without "profit" in the industry then everything will be wonderful. They do not see the shortages and long waits that follow government taking over the health industry.
arent more people insured by the sum of all private insurers than Obamacare subsidized plans? Aren't even more on Medicare or Medicaid than Obamacare subsidized plans? I could be wrong, but aren't less than a quarter of Americans covered by an Obamacare subsidized plan?Quote: TigerWuHey, SanchoPanza, do you support Obamacare, which has been the primary healthcare system in the U.S. for eight years?
Quote: RS
Again, that'd be an unsafe practice. Nothing to do with a level playing field.
Nope, getting ripped off in housing materials means you maybe didn't get the durable materials you payed for, but doesn't necessarily make it unsafe. Roof shingles wear out early doesn't mean you're in danger. A badly made material or product may simply not be what you payed for. Even a drug or device that doesn't do what is claimed may be otherwise be harmless if you're merely trying to alleviate a minor ailment.. You find unregulated substances in health food stores some which do basically nothing,
Quote: SOOPOOarent more people insured by the sum of all private insurers than Obamacare subsidized plans? Aren't even more on Medicare or Medicaid than Obamacare subsidized plans? I could be wrong, but aren't less than a quarter of Americans covered by an Obamacare subsidized plan?
Yeah, I don't know.... probably. "Primary healthcare system" was probably the wrong choice of words.
EDIT: So I guess my question to Sancho Panza is, do you support Obamacare, Medicaid, and Medicare?
Quote: RogerKintThe lobbyists employed by big biz would have no power to lobby if government was smaller. The left wouldn't cry so hard about trump being elected if Trump had no power given to him by the left (and others).
No argument there.
I just do not see the Republican Party paving a path to a smaller, less corrupt government.
I do not see my local republican representatives voting in any way that embodies a small government ideal.
Quote: rxwineWhile ya'll crapping on the ACA what was the workable republican plan they are going to pass any minute now?
It's too late. Once the giveaway has happened it is extremely difficult to take it back. The real chance to stop any giveaway is before it is enacted. People getting the free or heavily subsidized healthcare coverage now believe they and their progeny are entitled to it forever. And "the rich" can pay for it with higher taxes.
Quote: rxwineNope, getting ripped off in housing materials means you maybe didn't get the durable materials you payed for, but doesn't necessarily make it unsafe. Roof shingles wear out early doesn't mean you're in danger. A badly made material or product may simply not be what you payed for. Even a drug or device that doesn't do what is claimed may be otherwise be harmless if you're merely trying to alleviate a minor ailment.. You find unregulated substances in health food stores some which do basically nothing,
What's that have to do with a fair or level playing field? Of course there should be regulations or laws that basically prohibit a company from scamming someone by selling them either faulty products or by false advertising.
What I don't get is why there should be a fair playing field? Why should there be some regulation that keeps a fair playing field between grocery stores? I don't even know of any kind of regulations that would do that, other than that of monopolization.
Quote: SOOPOOIt's too late. Once the giveaway has happened it is extremely difficult to take it back. The real chance to stop any giveaway is before it is enacted. People getting the free or heavily subsidized healthcare coverage now believe they and their progeny are entitled to it forever. And "the rich" can pay for it with higher taxes.
Possibly had the republicans ever been interested in doing something they would have earlier. After all Bill Clinton tried to get a plan in 93,
Quote: FinsRuleThat’s such crap. There always was a subsidy. It’s called ERs not refusing care. It was just changing the manner of the subsidy. I know you know this.
I do not disagree. But that is a local issue. I work for the county hospital. It is county, not federal, dollars that pay for that uninsured patient. And I'll give the most egregious example I heard of when someone has 'free' healthcare with no deductible, and no repercussion for abuse. Patient took ambulance to hospital because couldn't get piece of dental floss out from between teeth! My fiancé was the dentist that saw him.. She refused to authorize the Medicaid cab for his ride home. This is what happens when the government is involved. (Maybe my story is not relevant to this exact discussion, but I love repeating it...)
Quote: SOOPOOPatient took ambulance to hospital because couldn't get piece of dental floss out from between teeth! My fiancé was the dentist that saw him.. She refused to authorize the Medicaid cab for his ride home. This is what happens when the government is involved. (Maybe my story is not relevant to this exact discussion, but I love repeating it...)
That's not a "government healthcare" problem... that's a "the customer is an idiot" problem.... haha!
Quote: RSWhat's that have to do with a fair or level playing field? Of course there should be regulations or laws that basically prohibit a company from scamming someone by selling them either faulty products or by false advertising.
What I don't get is why there should be a fair playing field? Why should there be some regulation that keeps a fair playing field between grocery stores? I don't even know of any kind of regulations that would do that, other than that of monopolization.
You can't think of anything for a grocery store?
Just for example a grocery store can deal in counterfeit or mislabeled products and ask for higher prices. Ever seen some of the products of the dollar store. Did you know they've sold generic fakes of name brand toothpaste like Crest. The product of some more expensive items, could be a cheaper product, like product of mexico instead, but sold at a higher price compared to an honest competitor. Fish sold in some unscrupulous markets has been sold as one type of fillet when it is actually another. Fish is sometimes advertised as fresher than it actually is. Some stores will even try to sell fresh items past an expiration date by a day, when they are required to throw them out to save some money.
Quote: gamerfreakNo argument there.
I just do not see the Republican Party paving a path to a smaller, less corrupt government.
I do not see my local republican representatives voting in any way that embodies a small government ideal.
Yeah me neither but I live in CA where there is no Republican party. Borrowing and spending is more fiscally liberal than tax and spend but for some reason some Republicans are on board with it.
Quote: rxwineYou can't think of anything for a grocery store?
Just for example a grocery store can deal in counterfeit or mislabeled products and ask for higher prices. Ever seen some of the products of the dollar store. Did you know they've sold generic fakes of name brand toothpaste like Crest. The product of some more expensive items, could be a cheaper product, like product of mexico instead, but sold at a higher price compared to an honest competitor. Fish sold in some unscrupulous markets has been sold as one type of fillet when it is actually another. Fish is sometimes advertised as fresher than it actually is. Some stores will even try to sell fresh items past an expiration date by a day, when they are required to throw them out to save some money.
You can’t be serious. Are those examples you just gave where the company is falsely advertising, faulty products, or something like that? IE: Exactly what I wrote above?
Those things aren’t to keep a fair playing field among companies, but to protect the consumer. If I want lightly fried fish fillets and that’s what it says on the box, then OF COURSE it should be lightly fried fish fillets in the box.
An example of a “fair playing field” is in some sports (not MLB though, apparently), the teams are capped at how much they can spend on players’ salaries. Of course that’s not a government regulation though.
Do you have any actual examples of a government regulation that tries to even out the playing field among companies?
Quote: RogerKintYeah me neither but I live in CA where there is no Republican party. Borrowing and spending is more fiscally liberal than tax and spend but for some reason some Republicans are on board with it.
Yesterday I noticed an ad on the radio (in CA) for a degree in social justice, while the environment friendly straw that looked like an empty tp roll fell apart midway through my milkshake. Ftw
Quote: RSYou can’t be serious?
if you want to make a sports analogy, what do you think rules do when they are enforced on each team? And in fact, what I posted was how a store can cheat to make more money or undercut another store by not playing by the same rules. IF you don't have regulations and regulators regularly doing inspections, you won't have a fair playing field, same as no one enforcing the rules equally in a game.
Quote:
In commerce, a level playing field is a concept about fairness, not that each player has an equal chance to succeed, but that they all play by the same set of rules.
Examples of such regulation: building codes, material specifications and zoning restrictions, which create a starting point / a minimum standard --- a "level playing field
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_playing_field
Quote: rxwineif you want to make a sports analogy, what do you think rules do when they are enforced on each team? And in fact, what I posted was how a store can cheat to make more money or undercut another store by not playing by the same rules. IF you don't have regulations and regulators regularly doing inspections, you won't have a fair playing field, same as no one enforcing the rules equally in a game.
If we’re talking about enforcing the rules on everyone the same, then yeah I agree it’s a level playing field. I thought you were trying to say something like the smaller places get a leg-up so they’re equal to the bigger companies or some such nonsense like that.
Quote: RSWhat's that have to do with a fair or level playing field? Of course there should be regulations or laws that basically prohibit a company from scamming someone by selling them either faulty products or by false advertising.
What I don't get is why there should be a fair playing field? Why should there be some regulation that keeps a fair playing field between grocery stores? I don't even know of any kind of regulations that would do that, other than that of monopolization.
Regulation of grocery stores isn't and doesn't need to be about fair competition, or Walmart couldn't sell groceries.
Regulation that's important for grocery stores is to protect the quality of food. Not selling horsemeat as beef. Not selling expired food, when that food can spoil. Not selling recalled goods, food from unregulated producers and processors, shark flank cut out to look like scallops, food with adulterated or illegal ingredients. Not allowing food to be stored at temperatures that cause spoilage, produce stored in the presence of rodents or roaches, a hundred other things that keep you from getting poisoned or ripped off.
Like I said earlier, regulations need to be tailored to the need for them. Complying usually costs money, so whomever they govern would prefer not to have them, even if the consumer ends up paying that cost. But I appreciate knowing if it says beef it actually came from cattle, and all the rest.
Quote: mcallister3200Yesterday I noticed an ad on the radio (in CA) for a degree in social justice, while the environment friendly straw that looked like an empty tp roll fell apart midway through my milkshake. Ftw
NASA imagery just verified your misuse of the straw caused the globe's temperature to rise 1 degree.
my own plastic bags for groceries
my own straws for milkshakes
my own MAGA hat for wearing
anything else? damn state wants me to BYOERRTHANG
Costa Rica, a major "medical tourism" destination is not green, but the un-de-marked gray. And what is the source for that 45,000m fatalities a year?Quote: TigerWuOkay? So? I already said people come to the U.S. for treatment. IF they can afford it. Now tell me how many people come to the U.S. because they want to pay for health insurance with a high deductible every month, "just in case" they need medical care here.
1.4 million Americans left the U.S. for medical care in 2016.
"Health care has become so expensive in the United States that a growing number of Americans (and their employers) are finding it more cost efficient to fly across the globe for certain medical procedures. The savings are so great — and the quality high enough — that a handful of American insurance companies are now encouraging the practice and covering the travel and treatment costs."
Because we have good doctors and hospitals. Nobody is disputing that! And there are rich people in other places in the world that can afford to come here. I already said that. What does that have to do with our broken insurance system and spiraling medical costs? 45,000 people die a year in the U.S. because they can't afford medical care, despite the U.S. having the highest per capita expenditure for healthcare in the world. How is that a successful system? How do you now see that as a problem?
What are you talking about? I just listed off a bunch of them.
Quote: djatcnext time I go to california I need to bring:
my own plastic bags for groceries
my own straws for milkshakes
my own MAGA hat for wearing
anything else? damn state wants me to BYOERRTHANG
There is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
Quote: AZDuffmanThere is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
Yeah, and my state gives people who od free Narcan. So unfair!
Quote: SanchoPanzaAnd what is the source for that 45,000m fatalities a year?
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
This is the source quoted for the 45,000 number (it is a few pages ago). Also a few pages ago (page 25)
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
This article refutes that claim. Same page.
Quote: rxwineSome stores will even try to sell fresh items past an expiration date by a day, when they are required to throw them out to save some money.
When I worked in the deli as a kid, we were required to sell any item that had ever been opened (cold cuts, cheese blocks) within a week. The store’s policy on this was just to take the one week sell by sticker off and put on a new one that was three days out. Clearance it off a month after it had originally been opened.
Quote: AZDuffmanThere is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
That's why you need one of these.
Quote: AZDuffmanThere is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
Harm reduction like needle exchanges saves taxpayer money in the long run.
But yea the straw thing is stupid.
Quote: gamerfreakHarm reduction like needle exchanges saves taxpayer money in the long run.
But yea the straw thing is stupid.
The point is priorities and who the CA government helps and who it hassles. Have to wonder when the CA voter says "enough" and quits voting for more and more of their freedom being taken away.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe point is priorities and who the CA government helps and who it hassles. Have to wonder when the CA voter says "enough" and quits voting for more and more of their freedom being taken away.
Perhaps they simply support the stuff you dont and do not have the same antipathy towards restrictions they see as protections
One mans palace is another mans prison
Quote: AZDuffmanThere is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
Its obvious they are doing this to annoy you. I suggest you vacation there. Show them you wouldn't be intimidated.
It is like soda cans along side the road, if .gov really wanted to get rid of straws, all they would have to do is put a .10 deposit on them and the junkies would pick them up before they end up in the great pacific garbage patch.Quote: AZDuffmanThere is something wrong with a state that wants to take away straws but will give out free needles to heroin addicts.
The fix is so simple, I have to question the narrative.
Quote: petroglyphIt is like soda cans along side the road, if .gov really wanted to get rid of straws, all they would have to do is put a .10 deposit on them and the junkies would pick them up before they end up in the great pacific garbage patch.
.
.10? I think that would be too much. for 50 straws maybe.
Where do most polluted straws come from? How many you think come from FF places versus sit down restaurants? Rather rare to take your drink from a sit down restaurant to go, but at FF restaurants that’s standard practice.
I went to a casino on Fremont and six trained cockroaches brought me a beer.
I was suggesting that any plastic the public wants to not have laying along the roads or floating in the ocean, should have a redeemable deposit on it like pop bottles.Quote: rxwine.10? I think that would be too much. for 50 straws maybe.
If water bottles were worth a dime each turned into the point of sale, someone would pick them up as we did as kids to make money. When I was a kid it was easy to tell whether you were in Oregon or Washington, simply by viewing the side of the road.
Washington highways were covered with empty's, Oregons were relatively clean, IIRC.
Quote: darkozPerhaps they simply support the stuff you dont and do not have the same antipathy towards restrictions they see as protections
One mans palace is another mans prison
The state of CA is a crazy, gilded society. People vote liberal in part because they dislike income disparity. Meanwhile they live among the worst of it in the USA. They claim to value "personal freedom" yet have the most restrictions on virtually everything in sight. In large parts of the state you need to make six figures to just lead a meager existence. Poop and needles litter the sidewalks in SF. LA is a homeless capital.
There is not enough money to get me to live there. I don't want to even visit again for the most part.
