Covid vaccine poll
Poll
 | 11 votes (15.94%) | ||
| | 45 votes (65.21%) | ||
| | 13 votes (18.84%) |
69 members have voted
Quote: AZDuffmanThen you will not get sick if I get it. Problem solved for the both of us.
But the difference is littering is an active thing. A person for example throwing their Starbucks cup on the ground is active. A virus is just out there, While I remember some show in the 2000s where they gave an example of a terrorist infecting themself with smallpox and cruising NYC for days until they get sick, such a thing is not the case.
What does active versus passive have to do with anything.
So when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor you would be against fighting back because you didn't actively cause it?
Quote: darkozWhat does active versus passive have to do with anything.
So when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor you would be against fighting back because you didn't actively cause it?
Active is actively causing a problem. Like my example of throwing a SBUX cup out the window of your car.
Passive is just living life.
"Intent."
What on earth does Pearl Harbor have to do with anything? But it was an active decision by the Japanese.
Quote: AZDuffmanActive is actively causing a problem. Like my example of throwing a SBUX cup out the window of your car.
Passive is just living life.
"Intent."
What on earth does Pearl Harbor have to do with anything? But it was an active decision by the Japanese.
Only humans can make active decisions?
No other living creatures?
If a Lion is attacking a village, since no human is actively causing harm that's just life? Do nothing about it?
If you have a roach infestation, do nothing about it, that's just life?
If a virus is killing people, there is nothing active about it? Do nothing?
Polio, syphilis, ghonorea, small pox, we should do nothing?
Quote: HunterhillWhat’s to stop someone from claiming they are a smoker in order to jump the line for the vaccine?
In NY, it is basically all done on the honor system. You are given a drop down menu on an Ipad, and have to check the box that made you qualify. No ID, no checking, nada..... By checking the box there was a few page disclaimer basically saying you are committing a crime if you are lying.
In NY the list of conditions that qualify is virtually all conditions! Asthma.... how many people have 'a touch of asthma?' Obesity..... that's probably between 1/4 and 1/2 of everyone. I could go on... Wife is upset because out of the four of us, one of her adult children does not qualify..... she said imagine a family that 3 got the shot, while the 4th didn't and got really sick...?
Quote: darkozOnly humans can make active decisions?
No other living creatures?
If a Lion is attacking a village, since no human is actively causing harm that's just life? Do nothing about it?
If you have a roach infestation, do nothing about it, that's just life?
If a virus is killing people, there is nothing active about it? Do nothing?
Polio, syphilis, ghonorea, small pox, we should do nothing?
You are making less and less sense. If you want to get the vaccine go get it. Just accept that my body is my choice. You are protected by the vaccine.
Once everyone who wants a vaccine has had one made available to them, I want NO restrictions on any business. Sabres sellouts. Mosh pits full of girls being tossed. Restaurants packed.
Quote: AZDuffmanYou are making less and less sense. If you want to get the vaccine go get it. Just accept that my body is my choice. You are protected by the vaccine.
You KNOW he is only PARTIALLY protected by the vaccine. He DOES accept that your body is your choice. He just wants society to protect him from having to sit near you on an airplane!
There are so many things in this country that could so easily be considered in compiling one's social score. Smoking, obviously. Seatbelt usage. For sure. How about frequenting specific internet sites? Viewing porn? Maltreatment of animals? Speeding? Failure to maintain an automobile properly, such that emissions exceed some specified limit. That certainly makes sense. Contributing to climate change, by, oh, I don't know, flying in a chartered jet or owning a wood stove?
Eating meat. Not eating vegetables. Fried foods, especially if the food is fried in animal fat (see maltreatment of animals, above).
There is no obvious way to verify if I have been vaccinated against any dangerous virus. Would you expect to stop any passserby in order to find out? "Let me see your papers?" Would there be some kind of marking? Maybe we could tattoo something on a person that would serve as validation?
Perhaps you could keep the unvaccinated off of airplanes, unless, of course, you were wealthy, like Al Gore or Jeff Bezos, who could charter a private plane. Richard Branson owns an airline, so obviously he can fly anywhere, anytime. But in a subway? On a bus?
My point here is to suggest a great deal of caution. Be careful.
Where would it stop?
While it is fascinating to hear people push their irrational fears about forced vaccinations and the idea that their freedoms should interfere with the freedoms of others, I don't think it is big a deal. Having just half the population vaccinated will be awesome. The virus would still be around, but it would no longer be a pandemic. When it is my turn, I'll get my shots. When given a choice that isn't a big deal, I'll go with the courteous choice instead of the discourteous one.
But it's a slippery slope to traverse beyond that opinion and trying to implement anything that isn't "courteous", to use your term. I only suggest that other "courteous" regulations have often gotten out of hand, and have often been selectively enforced.
The justification for turning many beneficial social norms into mandates, laws and regulations is that "it just makes sense."
I'm only suggesting to use caution. Be careful.
Quote: Zcore13No. Do you know if your co-worker has been vaccinated for all possible diseases? Should everyone be forced to get the flu shot? What about the chicken pox vaccine? Is it required to tell if you have AIDS or an STD?
I'm scheduled for my first dose Friday, but that's my choice. Others may not want to.
ZCore13
Please tell me you don't believe you can get AIDS or an STD by being in close proximity to an infected person? If you are traveling overseas to different countries, doesn't the US Government mandate you get certain shots already? They aren't to protect the person, they are to protect the country against you bringing back those diseases. I heard that about twenty years ago when WCW was going to tour North Korea, many wrestlers bailed out when the Government gave them a list ofvaccinations they needed to take in order to get back to the US.
Quote: SOOPOOYou KNOW he is only PARTIALLY protected by the vaccine. He DOES accept that your body is your choice. He just wants society to protect him from having to sit near you on an airplane!
That is a very slippery slope. Suppose I say the same about HIV to the point that I want someone with no gay male sex in the past 3 years? Would he defend that? Similar risks.
I do not buy that he accepts my body, my choice at all. He is more along the lines of "do it by force for the common good."
May you live in interesting times.
Quote: fantomBut it's a slippery slope to traverse beyond that opinion and trying to implement anything that isn't "courteous", to use your term. I only suggest that other "courteous" regulations have often gotten out of hand, and have often been selectively enforced.
If someone shows up to work and curses out their boss, there is a good chance they will be fired. If someone causes a significant disruption at an airport, they can be denied the opportunity to fly, arrested, and even put on a No Fly List. The few examples of regulations getting out hand in the name of courtesy are far smaller than the endless examples of regulations that are necessary. The much more slippery and much steeper slope would be allowing people to do whatever they want without any sense of responsibility in the name of freedom, when doing so interferes with the freedom of others.
Quote: fantomI am also going to get a shot, and suggest that everyone else does as well. It makes perfect sense.
But it's a slippery slope to traverse beyond that opinion and trying to implement anything that isn't "courteous", to use your term. I only suggest that other "courteous" regulations have often gotten out of hand, and have often been selectively enforced.
The justification for turning many beneficial social norms into mandates, laws and regulations is that "it just makes sense."
I'm only suggesting to use caution. Be careful.
Indeed. We are getting a most fascinating show of human behavior the past 11 months. It happens any time there is even the slightest risk. A fictional example is in Season 1 of "Breaking Bad" when the janitor takes the fall for Walter borrowing supplies from the chemical room. They find him with a joint or something (I forget exactly) and then the parents keep one-upping with "we really need to do....." to the point the school would be locked down like a prison. All on "maybes."
Now we have people doing the same on a scale of a nation. 99.5% survival rate and we on this forum alone have had suggestions of eliminating casino cheques, eliminating currency and going electronic, plexiglass at all casino table games, requiring a tag to show a vaccination to live what was 12 months ago a normal life, and too many mask requirements to list.
And that is all just on this forum!
Meanwhile, rational people who say, "I do not want to play at a casino table that feels like a prison visiting room" are called nuts and accused of wanting to "kill" others.
Be careful, indeed.
Quote: AZDuffmanThat is a very slippery slope. Suppose I say the same about HIV to the point that I want someone with no gay male sex in the past 3 years? Would he defend that? Similar risks.
Because you intend to have anal sex with him?
Otherwise you aren't making any sense
Or you are incapable of differentiation between a virus that is spread through the air versus one spread through sexual contact?
EDIT: Gay bath houses were shut down by the government back in the 80's because they were a breeding ground for HIV. Not forced rules. -- total shutdown.
Actiing like government hasn't done this before is ignoring history
(If you want a view of the inside of a gay bath house Bette Midler walks through one in "The Rose". Great movie
Quote: darkozBecause you intend to have anal sex with him?
Otherwise you aren't making any sense
Or you are incapable of differentiation between a virus that is spread through the air versus one spread through sexual contact?
EDIT: Gay bath houses were shut down by the government back in the 80's because they were a breeding ground for HIV. Not forced rules. -- total shutdown.
Actiing like government hasn't done this before is ignoring history
(If you want a view of the inside of a gay bath house Bette Midler walks through one in "The Rose". Great movie
He could cough on my food and I could ingest the contaminated bodily fluid.
It is a risk. f you want a life of no risk you have to be consistent.
I see I tripped a nerve here. So to avoid a suspension chain reaction I am stopping on this line here.
Quote: AZDuffmanHe could cough on my food and I could ingest the contaminated bodily fluid.
It is a risk. f you want a life of no risk you have to be consistent.
I see I tripped a nerve here. So to avoid a suspension chain reaction I am stopping on this line here.
You aren't tripping a nerve.
You are just stating something that there is zero evidence of any possibility of happening with over forty years of research behind it.
So, yeah maybe you should stop on this line here
Quote: AZDuffmanYou are making less and less sense. If you want to get the vaccine go get it. Just accept that my body is my choice. You are protected by the vaccine.
This is where your argument falls apart. Yes, when I get the vaccine, I am protected for a period of time, FROM THIS VIRUS IN IT"S CURRENT FORM, THIS STRAIN. But then because enough people like you chose not to be vaccinated, the virus doesn't die. It lives on, mutating, which is what viruses do, mutating right away from the vaccine and temporary protections that I have and some new strain can come back to make me very sick and or kill me.
The virus can be eradicated for good with a level of herd immunity, that is a combination of people being vaccinated plus natural immunity from those that recovered. Dr. Fauci says the number is 70, 75, 80%. I don't know what the exact number is. It is a point at which the virus can no longer spread. .
So your decision effects me and others, I would argue just the same as the drunk driver. You are not just choosing to not be vaccinated, you are choosing to allow this virus, to live, to grow, to mutate, and that effects us all.
It is as simple as this: We are all in this together. One persons actions effect everyone else. You need to add that into your "my freedom to do as I want" argument.
Hi Kj and others, I think you are wasting your breath arguing your point.Quote: kewljThis is where your argument falls apart. ...
It is as simple as this: We are all in this together. One persons actions effect everyone else. You need to add that into your "my freedom to do as I want" argument.
Quote:Between October 1 and January 30, just 155 Americans were hospitalized with the flu, compared to 8,633 during roughly the same time frame a year ago. That's a 98% decrease. Labs in the US have collected and tested more than half a million samples for the flu since late September, but just 0.2% of those samples tested positive (1,300 in total), according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Thanks to all the intelligent people who can act responsibly.
Quote: rxwineThanks to all the intelligent people who can act responsibly.
And the evidence that this number of hospitalizations for flu is because of intelligent people acting responsibly comes from where?
Could it be that the "flu", whatever that means, whatever variants of it there are versus some other period in time, whether that number is reflective of differing numbers of tests, whether there is a difference in testing volume or methodology due to , oh, I don't know, maybe a PANDEMIC, whether or not many of the COVID-19 deaths were among people who also had the flu...
There are untold reasons for almost anything that you can think of. It might be intelligent people acting responsibly. But it's just as reasonable to conclude, without any facts to back it up, that it could be dozens or even hundreds of other things.
Intelligent people don't jump to hasty conclusions.
Quote: rxwineIt's amazing what can happen with masks, social distancing AND VACCINATIONS of sufficient quantity.
Thanks to all the intelligent people who can act responsibly.
Probably you should thank the people who have it set that if you call the flu Covid you get more reimbursement.
Quote: kewljThis is where your argument falls apart. Yes, when I get the vaccine, I am protected for a period of time, FROM THIS VIRUS IN IT"S CURRENT FORM, THIS STRAIN. But then because enough people like you chose not to be vaccinated, the virus doesn't die. It lives on, mutating, which is what viruses do, mutating right away from the vaccine and temporary protections that I have and some new strain can come back to make me very sick and or kill me.
New virus strains are going to come no matter if people get vaccinated or not. Staying at home all the time is your best bet if you are so worried about dying. We have had flu shots for years but a new flu virus comes around.
Quote:The virus can be eradicated for good with a level of herd immunity, that is a combination of people being vaccinated plus natural immunity from those that recovered. Dr. Fauci says the number is 70, 75, 80%. I don't know what the exact number is. It is a point at which the virus can no longer spread. .
The same Dr. Fauci that told you masks were a waste of time 10 months ago?
Quote:So your decision effects me and others, I would argue just the same as the drunk driver. You are not just choosing to not be vaccinated, you are choosing to allow this virus, to live, to grow, to mutate, and that effects us all.
It is as simple as this: We are all in this together. One persons actions effect everyone else. You need to add that into your "my freedom to do as I want" argument.
The virus is going to live whether I get vaccinated or not. It will die off when it dies off. And another will come when it wants to come. Viruses might well end mankind one day. Take your shot and be safe. Let me make my choices with my body. Really, the amount of unhealthy behaviors in this country and world that I have been told we should leave alone because it is someone's choice is such that there is no room to change position now and say it has to be done "for the common good." Which is about as far as I can go without suspension, so if you want examples bring them up at DT.
Quote: fantomAnd the evidence that this number of hospitalizations for flu is because of intelligent people acting responsibly comes from where?
Could it be that the "flu", whatever that means, whatever variants of it there are versus some other period in time, whether that number is reflective of differing numbers of tests, whether there is a difference in testing volume or methodology due to , oh, I don't know, maybe a PANDEMIC, whether or not many of the COVID-19 deaths were among people who also had the flu...
There are untold reasons for almost anything that you can think of. It might be intelligent people acting responsibly. But it's just as reasonable to conclude, without any facts to back it up, that it could be dozens or even hundreds of other things.
Intelligent people don't jump to hasty conclusions.
You just jumped to a hasty conclusion that my last statement was something more than opinion.
Correct. I recall Wizard already asserting that position. Take it to DT and keep it there.Quote: AZDuffmanWhich is about as far as I can go without suspension, so if you want examples bring them up at DT.
Quote: AZDuffman
The same Dr. Fauci that told you masks were a waste of time 10 months ago?
Can't really get into that without "pressing up against" some rules, but I would encourage you to listen to the Bob Woodward interview tapes with the former President for a time line of who knew what and when....direct from the top person's mouth.
Dr. Fauci, being restricted as to what he could or couldn't say, was definitely a problem. Thankfully, it no longer is.
Quote: WizardIt is unfortunate that the issue of mask wearing has become political. However, it is obvious that the posts above on the topic are getting political. Kewlj, AZD, and Axelwolf are all officially warned to drop the topic of masks.
Please take it up at DT.
I think we've had enough warnings. Extend that warning to all contributors to the mask wearing controversy.
Quote: AZDuffmanWas it used in the USA? As Ali’s I heard stories of people affected here.
It was approved for medical use in the United States in 1998.[3] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines.[8] It is available as a generic medication.[4]
. This is not true. The flu vaccine hovers around 50% effective year after year.Quote: rxwineOf course, I'd argue if we could ever get the flu vaccination rate high enough, we could see that kind of result without masks or social distancing.
Quote: SOOPOO. This is not true. The flu vaccine hovers around 50% effective year after year.
Yeah, I forgot to check for efficacy. But maybe you forgot to consider the possibility of more effective mRNA vaccines.
Quote: rxwineYeah, I forgot to check for efficacy. But maybe you forgot to consider the possibility of more effective mRNA vaccines.
Good point. I wonder if this MRNA vaccine is judged a success if there will be many more to follow.
I’m definitely getting shingles vaccine a month or so after my second COVID shot. Then pneumonia shot in a few years. Probably one or two more not invented yet!
Quote: kewljCan't really get into that without "pressing up against" some rules, but I would encourage you to listen to the Bob Woodward interview tapes with the former President for a time line of who knew what and when....direct from the top person's mouth.
Dr. Fauci, being restricted as to what he could or couldn't say, was definitely a problem. Thankfully, it no longer is.
Not really interested. I am a realist and know that a virus is going to spread. I understand that it is impossible to "quarantine" on a large scale on any society but on one as free and mobile as the USA "impossible" is not near a strong enough word. I accept that there are parts of nature that we are not going to control. And despite living in a very sanitized part of USA history with few major tragedies I accept that these things will happen and the death rate of it all is a piker compared to many things in my lifetime.
There were what, 60 million Chinese killed by incompetence during the Great Leap Forward. Something nearly totally preventable. We have not even hit 1% of that number, and by natural means not government causing it. Yet so many people think things are so bad?
Quote: HokusPokusHi everyone, I think I just want to wait and see how other people react to the vaccine first.
You sound very familiar. Do you
know someone called Nathan?
Quote: EvenBobYou sound very familiar. Do you
know someone called Nathan?
Nope, never a Nathan. Let me guess, he is also concerned about the new vaccine method?
Nothing can be used as an excuse for my behavior and I would understand if you dont respond. My excuses are I was drinking heavily. Its been a bad week for the dogs in my life. Lost one, the other lost his nuts. That has nothing to do with covid.
Anyways. I am a pleb compared to you and you certainly dont need someone like me wasting your already valuable time or baiting you into responding to a troll like me. Especially on an apology message that you have no need to accept.
Quote: HokusPokusNope, never a Nathan. Let me guess, he is also concerned about the new vaccine method?
Just be glad you do not know and welcome to the forum.
I found this humorous, but the disparage is very real. Part of it is that the Black and Latino communities are resistant to getting the vaccine. The other part is the unfair manner associated with the roll out. When a group becomes eligible, for example 60-64 age group, you have to go online in search of an appointment which are far and few between. A new group of appointments becomes available every day at midnight, which are immediately gobbled up.
So who is less likely to have computers and internet service in their homes? I'll let you answer that. And computer/internet access for poorer people at the library is useless, because the appointments become available at midnight.
Quote: kewljI saw a funny story this morning on CNN. It was about the racial inequity of who is getting the vaccine first. They were interviewing the owner of a small family run Pharmacy in a black/latino section of New York. The pharmacist, who looked to be a middle eastern decent said "we can tell who is here for the vaccine and who is here for regular business". The reported asked "how can you tell?" The pharmacist replied "they are white and look confused".
I found this humorous, but the disparage is very real. Part of it is that the Black and Latino communities are resistant to getting the vaccine. The other part is the unfair manner associated with the roll out. When a group becomes eligible, for example 60-64 age group, you have to go online in search of an appointment which are far and few between. A new group of appointments becomes available every day at midnight, which are immediately gobbled up.
So who is less likely to have computers and internet service in their homes? I'll let you answer that. And computer/internet access for poorer people at the library is useless, because the appointments become available at midnight.
I'm going to be painfully honest here
Of the many people of color and relatively low income people I know I don't know a single one that doesn't have internet or a cell phone.
They may not have air conditioning in their home, they may not own a car, I even know some that don't have a DVD player (although they have an Xbox or PlayStation) but everyone I know has a cell phone and internet.
Perhaps it's different outside NY. IDK.
However the Tuskegee experiment really does still have a lot of psychic resonance for people of color. It annoys even me and I'm a pale horse.
Everywhere else, statewide, has availability only for those over 75.
There are qualifications based on being a medical provider, etc., who get priority over everybody. I'm talking here about the general public.
Vaccines are distributed on a proportional basis as well, so residents of the underserved area have a greater per capita number of vaccines available compared to other places. As a result, many fewer vaccines are available everywhere else.
It's been documented that if you are under 25, you stand a something like 99.4% chance of surviving COVID if you get it, whereas over age 70 you have something like a 60-70% chance of dying from COVID. Those aren't specific validated numbers, but they're close. If someone wants to report more accurate, published numbers, I'll stand corrected.
I hesitate to ask this question lest the Ministry of Truth here stomp on me, but if on this basis your eighty seven year old grandparent (and I have one of those) is denied even the opportunity to apply for a vaccine simply because she lives in the wrong zipcode, what would you tell YOUR grandma? Assume as well that she has other underlying conditions, like COPD and hypertension.
Would you feel morally or ethically guilty if you could somehow game the system such that she DID get a shot, ahead of an eighteen year old in perfect health who lives a couple of miles away?
Quote: kewljI have not, but will as soon as I am eligible. For the general public, meaning, not healthcare workers, teachers (for which you qualified) etc, Nevada is still at the 70 years old and above level. Next group will be 65-69. And the 16-64 with high risk condition (that is me).
Apparently Nevada is well behind some other states, as I was talking to a friend in Pennsylvania today, who is in the same group as me and they are now eligible.
Of course being eligible and finding an appointment are two different things. My friend has yet to find an appointment available anywhere even semi-close to where they live.
I feel the same way.
Quote: darkozI'm going to be painfully honest here
Of the many people of color and relatively low income people I know I don't know a single one that doesn't have internet or a cell phone.
I am not going to pretend, I have a lot of black and latino friends....I don't. Nor do I know what lower income people and communities have or don't have. I just know when the pandemic hit last fall and they started going to online learning for school, they were concerns that lower income black and latino communities were being disproportionately effected. And it has to be the same here. I am sure some lower income white as well, but disproportionately black and latino.
And yes people do have cell phones, even lower income. Obama expended a government free cell phone program to benefit lower income people that otherwise wouldn't have cell phones. These phones are sometimes referred to as "Obama phones" lol
And while it is not yet my group to be vaccinated and I haven't yet experienced that frantic search for appointments that I am hearing about, I would think trying to do so on a cell phone rather than a computer that you can refresh frequently would be a difficult task.
In addition to lower income, older folks....the first in line, might have problems finding and securing appointments because many don't have or use computers. I have seen a few stories of 80 something year old's relying on their grand kids to find appointments.
Again in my community, online learning was not implemented because since there were some students who did not have adequate access, NOBODY could utilize online learning. The thinking was it wasn't fair that those who had the bandwidth and equipment should be able to access education, so nobody got to use it.
If we apply the same logic to vaccines, well then, of course, nobody should get a vaccine, since not everyone has the exact same accessibility to it. Only when we all have equal access should ANY vaccines be distributed.
Extrapolating this thinking to its logical conclusion, given enough time nobody would be able to read or write. But that's okay, because we'll all be dead.
