Why you should leave WOV

Quote: Minty

When trying to put out a fire, it's often best not to add a bunch of wood and gasoline to it. There's got to be some part of you that realizes that maybe you've said too much and your actions can have negative consequences, right? I think a lot of people really enjoy your presence here, but it's like you're deliberately pushing them away. If you are in a low point in your life or are feeling down that's ok, and there are good ways to work through it, but becoming combative isn't the way. Reach out to someone if you want some support.

Thank you, Minty

I appreciate your solid and profound words.

But the facts remain that it is the AP community that is throwing wood on the fire

Searching for posta where I gave my name that are almost a decade old? Threats of violence and accusations that I am not smart enough to figure out my own plays?

Posting 2 disparate paragraphs of a book and making a ridiculous assessment of a persons writing?

This is wood on the fire.

I dont fear casinos.

I dont fear surveillance

I most certainly dont fear any APs

And I am not going to apologize for my right to expose my own self-discovered plays on a website devoted to gambling.

Quote: darkoz

I dont fear casinos.

I dont fear surveillance

.

Don’t you wear a mask when you’re playing ?

Quote: michael99000

Don’t you wear a mask when you’re playing ?

Welcome back michael.

No, thats only on rare occasions when a play is threatened and needs to still be accomplished

Although it contributes to why I am not afraid of security and surveillance

Havent had occasion to use one in a few years though. Not since 2016. I brought it out of my closet last time just for the WOV meetup

Quote: EvenBob

I checked it out. Oh. My. Dear. God.

First of all, it's self published, big
surprise. Second, in 10 years it's
gotten 4 reviews, of which only
1 is from a verified purchaser.
The other 3 reviews are from
friends of yours, or from people
who didn't buy it. 4 reviews in
10 years means no sales.

I read what was free to read.
Did you have anybody edit
this thing for you? Here's
an example of what I mean:



Do you see what you did there? Oops.
What I read is riddled with amateur
mistakes. Way too many hyphenated
words. The writing is either rambling
or short and jerky. The plot is confusing.
The characters are undeveloped and
undefined. Hollywood turned this down?
This shocks you?

Dark Oz has a book?

Quote: darkoz

I suppose since I taught myself how to do it I will have to kill myself then, lol

DarkOz,
You know who you are and you know where you live.
$;o)

Quote: Zcore13

I wonder If I should quit my job because competitors have stolen my ideas for promotions?


ZCore13

really, really terrible analogy - posting here is not a job

and yes, some people might quit their jobs for a similar reason - and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad or "ridiculous" decision

Part II of the article series:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-2/

Part III is going to look at things from the perspective of the casinos, but is also going to discuss the positive qualities that make an AP an AP—meaning high-level ones.

Part IV is the interview with Darkoz.

Part V will tie it all together.

Quote: Mission146

Part II of the article series:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-2/

Part III is going to look at things from the perspective of the casinos, but is also going to discuss the positive qualities that make an AP an AP—meaning high-level ones.

Part IV is the interview with Darkoz.

Part V will tie it all together.

Part VI should be epilogue about the forum members who threatened to leave yet never really did and continued to post about and/or to the forum member who is the subject of Part IV.

Quote: FTB

Part VI should be epilogue about the forum members who threatened to leave yet never really did and continued to post about and/or to the forum member who is the subject of Part IV.

No need to antagonize, but I can’t pass this joke up: I tried to get Sarah McLachlan, but she’s way out of my price range.

Quote: Rigondeaux

In other words, you are sabotaging the incomes of your peers, as you well know. And you know it, if for no other reason, because they are telling you so directly. Repeatedly. And not one has defended you.

???

SMH. Many APs have defended him, including the other thread.

Darkoz is providing a learning opportunity for both existing and potential APs. But you can't tolerate competition. According to you, the only APs allowed to prosper are you and the members of your cabal.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I think the chances of violence are remote, but non zero. If he keeps yapping, it probably becomes significant

Being the center of attention and getting back at people who disrespected him > safety of his family.

Or maybe it's more like a street gang. Your incitement of violence shows the type of person you are. Not a big surprise that you have no other viable career options.

Competition could kill it, also, which is their side of the argument. If we go back to the garbage men analogy, (which I think was a point I may have made too subtlety) you can’t have too many companies in a small town or none of them can make enough money.

I don’t think he was actually inciting violence, but he can say he wasn’t himself. I’d argue that most AP’s actually have plenty of other options, just not ones they prefer, as we will see in Part III.

Quote: Mission146

Competition could kill it, also, which is their side of the argument.

A weak argument, imo.

Considering their obsession with discerning darkoz's motivations, it's only fair to consider their motivations -- which by most indications are selfish and exclusionary.

<edited>

Rig, you must be aware web sites like this make money by selling advertising that depends on 'traffic'? And your proposed boycott is a direct attack on the money making ability? And that these owners pay people like the Wiz based on their ability to make money? Do you care that you are actively trying to take food out of the mouths of the Wiz's family? I know you don't care. You do care that you perceive someone is trying to do that to you.

I think your boycott is like an ostrich hiding from the tiger by putting its head underground. This site will continue. Occasionally there will be a guy like Darkoz that breaks 'the code' that you APs live by. Funny how you didn't threaten to leave when Wiz exposed parlay card AP. Or ksdj exposed Lottery betting AP. Or a few others. I guess those are not plays that effect you, so you don't care. For all we know there is a guy who makes his entire living on lottery AP.

Anyway..... I think your presence here likely tempers what Darkoz and others put out there. I think you all leaving because of one rogue poster revealing one play that you didn't want him to is a -EV move by you.

I hope you reconsider. You are one of the most valuable posters here.

I trust Boz's judgement on this, so I'll go back on hiatus. A couple of notes:

I don't think Mission has much sense of the subcultural mores of the sports betting enclave of serious gambling. Others don't, either. If somebody pulled a stunt like this...well, the chances of bad things wouldn't be small. Bad things would be expected.

I find many of darkoz's priorities here naïve. Believe it or not, a lot of people are in darkoz's shoes in that they could garner respect, hype a book, or sell a screenplay if they simply told stories like The Irishman (which had as its anchor a fiction). But people do not. Not because they are "fearful," but because they are not desperate for attention, or balancing some scales, or money. And they have some respect for others. Not only for the personal toes on which they are stepping, but for their families who are going to shoulder the burden of their public spouting and any consequences.

Now I don't know this AP stuff without a scorecard, but if darkoz's "crew" were in the sports betting subculture, I'd have one word of advice for them:

AFLAC.

Sayonara.

Quote: redietz

If somebody pulled a stunt like this...well, the chances of bad things wouldn't be small. Bad things would be expected.

With your attitude it's stunning that you imagine yourself occupying the moral high ground. I think you've alluded to violence in all your posts ITT.

Anyone who uses violence to solve a non-violent problem is a scumbag.

I don't know about leaving the site (yet) but I will say this is one of the most drama-filled forums I've ever been on in my life.... lol...

If a random blabbermouth can endanger your plans to take care of your family, perhaps it wasn't such a good plan to begin with.

Quote: billryan

If a random blabbermouth

I like that, what a nice phrase..

Quote: EvenBob

I like that, what a nice phrase..

I got $0.02 burnin' a hole in me pocket...

First, the most important - I wish you the best of luck, Rig, and share the opinion that you will be missed. Though we didn't have much of a "relationship", you are one of the few who does all my work for me. Top 2 people who have saved me typing by stating exactly how I felt so I didn't have to. On the matters of politics and philosophy, you will be missed by me sincerely.

Second, about "revelations", for those whom this is your bread and butter, you are definitely too cavalier. Years ago I described activity of mine, and how an attempt at fixing one problem led to creation of another, and now all Seneca properties are ASM / CSM. Some may remember when they had deck games. Those who remember the thread know that I am solely responsible for us now being full CSM. And while perhaps unrelated, if you were in my head and followed that whole ordeal, you will see that the genesis of it all was as the result of what an AP shared and what was learned. It is not apples to apples; I did not hear about an activity and then act on said activity, but rather a mentality was given to me that allowed me to see things in a different light, an AP light, and I took that knowledge and applied it elsewhere. And now, you can't count at Seneca. AND all that happened from a guy who cared way more about a 20yr old on a certain carpet than one of you gaming me out of $100,000. Even a guy who didn't care about advantage play whatsoever f#$%ed you out of an advantage play, all because of an advantage player sharing an advantage play. Actions have consequence.

BUT, in defense of the forum (and in no way affected by the color of my name), this wasn't ever an AP forum. IIRC, this forum was the result of Wiz's lifelong passion for all games, and the site was created as a resource for The Player. Not the AP, not for AP resources or in the name of AP, but to inform the player of the workings behind the games. All games. All workings. And from protected member Bob Dancer blowing up an AC play (IIRC) to protected founder Wiz breaking down another huge (???) AC machine promo, to protected member DarkOz doing what he does, it's all to the purpose of the forum, and has had examples aplenty to this point. Add to it Wiz's widely known stances on freedom of information and free speech, and I must admit I'm a bit..."incredulous" is far too extreme a word, so I'll just take a bite from the Name This Song thread...

"I saved you, " cried the woman
"And you've bitten me, but why?
You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
"Oh shut up, silly woman, " said the reptile with a grin
"You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in

Not to incite; I'm surely neither calling AP's stupid or Wiz a snake. But I'm reminded of my gunner brothers in these new "sanctuary cities". Get enough in one place and it feels nice. Secure. Safe. But those who expect it to be secure and safe are the same ones gape mouthed and bewildered when their doors get kicked in. You knew damn well, but security felt nice. Consider this a reminder that security is illusory.

wow. this thread is a real drag.

Quote: billryan

If a random blabbermouth can endanger your plans to take care of your family, perhaps it wasn't such a good plan to begin with.

I completely agree. Let's not loose sight of the fact that nobody is breaking your arm to enter the casino in the first place.

Quote: billryan

If a random blabbermouth can endanger your plans to take care of your family, perhaps it wasn't such a good plan to begin with.

I agree with this.

There are pros and cons associated with just about every career choice

If your success/livelihood depends in any way on the actions and decisions of total strangers who do the same work as you , then that’s just a risk associated with your job. DarkOz is ultimately only accountable to himself, his family and his team. When he makes a decision that he feels benefits him , he can’t be expected to first decide how it affects people outside his circle.

I can’t say I know enough about it to understand how the reveals benefit him , but I’m assuming he doesn’t do it for the sole purpose of hurting others. And I’m sure it probably benefits those who earn money via traffic to this forum.

Jeez, what a drama. This site used to be fun...

Quote: Mission146

Part II of the article series:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-2/

Part III is going to look at things from the perspective of the casinos, but is also going to discuss the positive qualities that make an AP an AP—meaning high-level ones.

Part IV is the interview with Darkoz.

Part V will tie it all together.

Mission, if you have any video of Dorothy . . . um . . . "fingering her wheel" . . I suggest you make that Part VI.

Seriously, I am very sorry to see so many fine and interesting Forum members suspending their participation in this forum. This mess just keeps getting worse.

"So many better men, a few of them friends, were leaving. And a thousand thousand slimy things stayed on, and so did I."

Quote: gordonm888

Mission, if you have any video of Dorothy . . . um . . . "fingering her wheel" . .

She was fingering the plane, fingering
the truck, way too much fingering
going on.. Never fingered a wheel
before, sounds like an arrestable
offense in some states..

Quote: gordonm888

"So many better men, a few of them friends, were leaving. And a thousand thousand slimy things stayed on, and so did I."

Info, info, everywhere
And the membership doth shrink
Info, info, everywhere
Will no one stop to think?

When glassed eye behind the dome
can see your every move
And every nick and every groove
Is examinable from home

You cast a-sky your dreaming eye
And ask a chance for when
Info, info's everywhere
Shared with kin and friend

Lost in dream you become
In a world of your own making
Where info, info's everywhere
And free for all the taking

Lost in dream and you awake
To stress and fraught with fright
All the world has gone astray
And you shall put it right

Info, info everywhere
You will take the lead
"Info, info everywhere
It will be my creed!"

"Info, info everywhere
In darkness and in light!
Info, info everywhere
I will make it right!"

Info, info everywhere
And then a bell was struck
T'was The Man who found your info
And now, my friend, you're f@#$ed

To state the blindingly obvious, nobody has condoned violence.

They have said there is a real chance of violence when you go around sabotaging the incomes of hundreds of random people by betraying your peer group and it is extremely easy to find you.

This is very reckless for someone with a family.

Again, I don't advocate any violence. It just shows where the guy's head is that it is a risk he is willing to take for no reason other than self aggrandisement.

This is someone whose family has already been infiltrated and robbed once.

Quote: darkoz

Wow, so again my ability is questioned.

I

This obsession with being thought highly of by other people is the core of narcissism. It's not normal.

You ever hear the saying... Something like, if you have a problem with one person, it might be them, if you have a problem with a lot of people, it's probably you?

Eventually your behavior will probably come back to bite you and family members hard if you don't address it.

But for the record, I didn't say you didn't think of a play. I don't think you concieved of AP itself entirely from the ground up. How could you have never searched the internet about these subjects as you were learning, for example?

And I said that even if you did, that wouldn't mean it was right to screw over everyone on similar plays just to boost your self esteem.

I don't think you would have liked it if this play got blown up by someone bragging online while you were still doing it. So why do it to others?

Is it even possible for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes?

I am going to boycott books because Thorp published Beat the Dealer in 1966. How dare he share the secrets of card counting?

And because Ken Uston published Million Dollar Blackjack in 1981. There's no coming back from that!

OMG...Did you hear James Grosjean wrote Beyond Counting 20 years ago? Ever since that moment not a single person has made money in a casino betting with an edge.

It is a ridiculous take to get so upset about a small play posted about pulling a player's card to generate better mailers. The basics of the play were already known and published, and besides, it's not even a "real" advantage play. It's just marketing optimization. It's a good thing Max Rubin didn't write a book on that in 1994. He would have caused everyone to leave the forum.

People who fear the exposure of such information are short-sighted.

Quote: sodawater

I am going to boycott books because Thorp published Beat the Dealer in 1966. How dare he share the secrets of card counting?

And because Ken Uston published Million Dollar Blackjack in 1981. There's no coming back from that!

OMG...Did you hear James Grosjean wrote Beyond Counting 20 years ago? Ever since that moment not a single person has made money in a casino betting with an edge.

It is a ridiculous take to get so upset about a small play posted about pulling a player's card to generate better mailers. The basics of the play were already known and published, and besides, it's not even a "real" advantage play. It's just marketing optimization. It's a good thing Max Rubin didn't write a book on that in 1994. He would have caused everyone to leave the forum.

People who fear the exposure of such information are short-sighted.

I agree. now, I admit, AP is not illegal (in most cases), but to me most are bottom feeders. Bottom feeders are always affected when something changes above them.

It's in the abbreviation itself. Advantage: A condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position. No different than someone who incessantly scours coupons to get 95% of their grocery bill, or someone who stays all day at a buffet that doesn't post a time limit or someone who buys something and then returns it for a refund after using it, because they can.

All are taking advantage of a situation. Going out of their way to avoid being under the normal guidelines everyone else is using. In gamblingvit's AP. In most other situations it's just sad mostly.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

I agree. now, I admit, AP is not illegal (in most cases), but to me most are bottom feeders. Bottom feeders are always affected when something changes above them.

It's in the abbreviation itself. Advantage: A condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position. No different than someone who incessantly scours coupons to get 95% of their grocery bill, or someone who stays all day at a buffet that doesn't post a time limit or someone who buys something and then returns it for a refund after using it, because they can.

All are taking advantage of a situation. Going out of their way to avoid being under the normal guidelines everyone else is using. In gamblingvit's AP. In most other situations it's just sad mostly.


ZCore13

then you keep using those coupons and I will keep getting 40% off my grocery bill. People like you who pay full price allow people like me to save money. For that I applaud you.

Quote: GWAE

then you keep using those coupons and I will keep getting 40% off my grocery bill. People like you who pay full price allow people like me to save money. For that I applaud you.

Using some coupons is different than extreme couponers that get $200 worth of groceries for $15.


ZCore13

Hasn't it been documented that some self-made millionaires became millionaires partly because of their cheapskate ways, including obsessive use of coupons?

Quote: HugoSlavia

With your attitude it's stunning that you imagine yourself occupying the moral high ground. I think you've alluded to violence in all your posts ITT.

Anyone who uses violence to solve a non-violent problem is a scumbag.

LOL. When I need a tour of Disneyland, I'll look you up. Hugo, first of all, you don't get to define "nonviolent problem" unless you're God.

I don't have a moral compass on this. I already stated that. I don't know the origins of any of this. Maybe somebody has darkoz kidnapped somewhere and said, "Out this play or I'll make you eat broccoli."

On the face of it, I see no sane reason to do what darkoz did. In service of writing a book? Puh-leese. If you eliminate the top 30 or 40 selling books, do you have any idea how little "best-selling" authors make? In service of writing a book and then getting a film deal? Puh-leese again. About as likely as winning the lottery. So why? Funsies? Desperation?

When I need those Disneyland tickets, I'll look you up.

I agree AP is not the greatest outcome in life. If I had a child, I would prefer they were a doctor or something for sure. But it's pretty good for many people.

Not everyone just inherits piles of money left and right, like Bill.

Not everyone winds up with a great job that they love.

Anyway, it is what it is. Maybe I'm a bottom feeder. Oh well. I'm pretty happy. I eat well and travel a lot, which is what I like to do.

Quote: SOOPOO

Rig, you must be aware web sites like this make money by selling advertising that depends on 'traffic'? And your proposed boycott is a direct attack on the money making ability? And that these owners pay people like the Wiz based on their ability to make money? Do you care that you are actively trying to take food out of the mouths of the Wiz's family? I know you don't care. You do care that you perceive someone is trying to do that to you.

I think your boycott is like an ostrich hiding from the tiger by putting its head underground. This site will continue. Occasionally there will be a guy like Darkoz that breaks 'the code' that you APs live by. Funny how you didn't threaten to leave when Wiz exposed parlay card AP. Or ksdj exposed Lottery betting AP. Or a few others. I guess those are not plays that effect you, so you don't care. For all we know there is a guy who makes his entire living on lottery AP.

Anyway..... I think your presence here likely tempers what Darkoz and others put out there. I think you all leaving because of one rogue poster revealing one play that you didn't want him to is a -EV move by you.

I hope you reconsider. You are one of the most valuable posters here.

I appreciate it.

The parlay cards and the lotto are examples of useful info, help. I have shared info about sports myself.

The lotto play was like when a lot of us were sharing the free money to be made on Floyd v Connor. A particular market failure.

If you pay attention to that lotto thread and do some of your own thinking you'll learn a lot! That's why I was pointing it out to TDvegas as he insisted nobody posted good sports info and only Billy Walter's and ace rothstein made money off sports.

I've mentioned before, some great promos in the east coast books rn. But I'm not going to post a step by step guide on exactly how I and others play them because that might hasten their end.

I'm all for helping people out and sharpening them up.

I have learned a ton from people on this and other forums and try to pay it forward.

There is a clear difference between this and posting way too much info, and screwing people over just for ego and/or to be vindictive.

Nobody wins when everything is completely spelled out in public, other than the house.

My purpose in leaving the site is not to harm others but to protect myself and my peer group and friends. Mike has already said he is fine with it.

Thanks for the response, Rig. It seems like BBB has eliminated Darkoz, term to be determined. I hope the "unintended consequence" of him being suspended is you and PG and others staying. Can you imagine if just me and Bob are left?

I haven’t seen anyone put this out there yet so I’ll be the first to ask how president trump has anything to do with this considering he is fair game to blame stuff on. I demand action and response!

Quote: heatmap

I haven’t seen anyone put this out there yet so I’ll be the first to ask how president trump has anything to do with this considering he is fair game to blame stuff on. I demand action and response!

Perhaps you missed where political comments were banned from this forum months ago. You're not the first to get this "action and response" since, but the 3 day standard applies. See you then.

This post shall refer to action taken against darkoz on the thread VBJ (NY AP MOVE) PT. 2, which has been closed. I'm addressing it here to give an opportunity for comment.

It is the opinion of forum moderators that the original post in that thread was made in the interests of revenge and escalating an already divisive topic discussed in this thread. Forum management continues to respect free speech, but we also oppose offering a platform for feuds. As often happens, we were faced with conflicting interests in this situation and chose what we feel is an intelligent middle ground.

Action taken against darkoz is as follows:

• Suspension for three days for making false and insulting claims about a forum moderator.
• May not create new threads for 3 months (to end 4/13/20) without prior moderator approval.
• May not initiate discussion about any "plays" unless said play is already recently introduced by another forum member in good standing. Exceptions may be made with forum moderator permission. This rule to also have a 3-month term.

Forum moderators wish to state that this action is not taken out of backsliding in our respect of free speech or impede an exodus of members.

DarkOz is a dead play, just ask the central servers.

Quote: Zcore13

I agree. now, I admit, AP is not illegal (in most cases), but to me most are bottom feeders.


ZCore13

wait don't tell me - let me guess

APs are bottom feeders but casino management personnel are high quality honorable people who always have the best interests of their patrons close to their hearts

puh.....leeeeeeeze......................................................a ridiculous post if there ever was one





oh gee whiz - if I was looking for the best deal on a mortgage I would scour the web looking for promos from brokers

I get a great deal but I feel so bad because 𝑰 𝒕𝒐𝒐𝒌 𝒂𝒅𝒗𝒂𝒏𝒕𝒂𝒈𝒆

oh, woe is me - I feel like a bottom feeder - I didn't think how much I might be hurting banks or brokers...................ROTFLMAO

I'm not a big contributor on this forum, but I've been a full-time AP for awhile now and I've made a fairly substantial amount of money doing it. I occasionally check this forum and a few like it because every now and then I find something interesting. Having read darkoz's play and, in particular, the articles written by Mission in response to this play and the fallout afterward, I think OP's and others' actions in leaving the forum are justifiable and, at least, have a logical basis. It's natural to want to boycott something that actively hurts you. But I guess I'm having trouble grasping the self-righteous indignation for darkoz's particular post and response. Shack is not a full-time AP. He enjoys writing about AP plays for the greater reading public. He has, in the past, consulted for casinos. I don't think he's ever even given the implication as being a friend to the AP community. Other gambling authors consult for casinos while simultaneously ostensibly teaching people how to be APs, and I can see the moral hypocrisy there, but I don't think anyone has become an actual AP from Shack's work. As far as I can tell, his general MO is to educate the recreational gambler.

What I'm getting at is that the interests of APs and Shack's interests have never been the same, and I don't think Shack would claim otherwise. If he deems it in his interests, he will expose whatever plays you share with him, presumably excluding those you have reached an agreement to keep hidden. He has no professional responsibility to do otherwise, because he is not really part of the profession.

It seems in the last few years people have gotten more brazen about sharing AP secrets, and I would argue that it is more damaging to the profession now than in the past due to the easy access to the Internet. Before, if a book existed that spoke of a play, you would first have to know the book even existed, then you would have to track it down. Now, many formerly secret plays are a google search away. People are holding workshops and spitting out newbie APs by the dozen. While I think that APs probably would overall benefit from boycotting this forum, or at least stop from sharing secrets publicly and/or with Shack, I don't understand the sudden outcry against Shack and the forum. It's just a matter of scale. So while I personally would encourage APs to be more tight-lipped, I do have to say that this sudden public outrage strikes me as disingenuous.

I wasn’t sure if my opinion would be valid here. I’m not an AP, and I don’t want to be an AP. That life is not for me, I do fine doing what I’m doing. I think of myself as an “aware ploppie”. I know what I’m doing, I accept the odds, I play for fun, and when it isn’t fun, I leave.

But I thought about it for a few days. You can’t gamble for 25 years, even casually, without seeing something and thinking, “Huh? What did I just see?” And watching closer, and then betting on the information you just collected.

The few times that has happened, and that I’ve posted about it here, the only way I’ve discussed it in detail is through PMs, with people whom I “know” and respect. And the reason for that is out of respect for the entire profession. I’m not on the inside, I’ll never be, and I don’t want to be. But nevertheless it is fascinating. I love seeing people find a legit edge and exploit it. I don’t need to know how it’s done. It’s just cool knowing it’s being done.

I like darkoz’s persona. Assuming it’s genuine, I like darkoz. But his decision to reveal a play, even a dead one, was self-serving in a way that doesn’t serve him as an AP, and doesn’t serve APism in general. If you do it, part of doing it is taking the money, keeping your mouth shut, and ignoring what others say and think. Just because THAT play is dead, there certainly will be others that work on the same principle.

Don’t say anything if you can wink. Don’t wink if you can nod. And don’t nod if you don’t have to. And screw ‘em if they don’t like it, it ain’t their business anyhow.

Quote: Mosca

Don’t say anything if you can wink. Don’t wink if you can nod. And don’t nod if you don’t have to. And screw ‘em if they don’t like it, it ain’t their business anyhow.

(Quote clipped, relevance)

You have to be able to at least wink, but there are subtle ways to go about things. The tendency of an advantage player is to read between the lines, not accept things at face value (or the immediate assumption would be all gambling is losing gambling---as so many have) and try to pick up on messages.

For example, I conveyed information in one of my most recent...I think ten or twenty posts...but the only people who are going to pick up on that information are the ones looking for it to be there. If you think it would be a fun exercise, search my posts and see if you can find it, PM me, and I'll let you know if you were right. Anyone not looking is going to see what I said as a flippant, perhaps even silly, comment. I bet you can find it.

That said, I agree that there is a pretty big difference between spelling out the game plan on certain concepts and merely hinting at them. Far be it from me to try to tell people what to do, though, I just offer suggestions.

I do think this is a productive conversation to have come up from time to time, even if the end result is that of people allegedly (or actually) leaving. What should we or should we not talk about? To what extent can it be discussed? So on and so forth.

But, stopping the talking on one website...or leaving and tacitly allowing it to occur unchecked...is not going to solve the problem. I'm not necessarily saying that there shouldn't be a Brotherhood, just that the Brothers would do well to treat someone as a Brother when that person has the goods on the Brotherhood.

Leaving ain't changing our Google rating. There are other outlets for those inclined to say whatever they want...and good luck stopping it if they get REALLY determined. The best way to handle this sort of thing is with requests, not with demands and insult. A defensive posture rather than an attacking one.

casino management personnel are bottom feeders if you ask me - since a fair portion of their profits and bonuses come from stoking the addiction of compulsive gamblers

Quote: lilredrooster

casino management personnel are bottom feeders if you ask me - since a fair portion of their profits and bonuses come from stoking the addiction of compulsive gamblers

Yup. You'll like Article III. The title was intentionally misleading.

please delete

Quote: lilredrooster

casino management personnel are bottom feeders if you ask me - since a fair portion of their profits and bonuses come from stoking the addiction of compulsive gamblers

I try not to view casino management in an adversarial role. I'm not sure how they feel about it, but still, that's my two cents.

Time to press the AZ-5 button on this thread.

everybody knows some blackjack players beat the casino for substantial bucks by counting cards

but we have posters here making a living off of machines

as a tribute to them I would like to say that is pretty amazing

a great many people would not believe that if you tried to convince them of it - it took me a long time to believe it

if you tried to call a major newspaper with a story about people beating machines I doubt they would have any interest - they just wouldn't believe it - or it would take a whole lot of convincing to get them to believe it

so, here's to you guys and gals for your amazing accomplishment...................