Thread Rating:

Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
Thanked by
RSTomG
January 12th, 2020 at 12:22:00 PM permalink
If you are an AP, even very part time, or you are a friend of an AP you should leave this forum. It is being used as a weapon against APs.

If you don't get why the information darkoz is posting is so damaging, that's understandable. But perhaps everyone who is an AP and sees it as very damaging knows what they are talking about.

This is stuff that really can impact people's lives in a major way. Some of these people have families.

IDK exactly why darkoz is posting it. Only reasons that make sense are, he wants attention and he doesn't get along with certain posters and wants to show them what happens when you mess with him.

Either way he is willing to harm many others with no involvement.

Now, mission is actually publishing articles about it, using the words of myself and others who object to fill out the articles.

Mission's motives are probably clearer. He has unpaid debts to some of these same APs.

So we've got a pair of people who are sabotaging the incomes and lives of others, many perfect strangers who don't even post here, out of some pretty sleazy motivations.

This site not only condones , but actively promotes it.

I was going to write more about why this isn't about free speech (if you can't discuss politics free speech is no longer an issue) and the ethics of betraying your peers. But it really boils down to this.

Do you want APs to be screwed or not?

If this place is going to be about people messing up your livelihood, or the livelihood of someone you care about for petty personal reasons, do your part. Don't participate in this place. Don't provide content. Don't help bring traffic.

It sucks cuz I love butting heads over movies or weed. I love talking about food and sports and even gambling and helping people improve their games, without drawing a diagram for casinos or bookies on how to plug leaks.

But I can't help destroy my own livelihood. I can't contribute here.

Several others have jumped ship already. Do the right thing and join us.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
HugoSlavia
January 12th, 2020 at 1:14:01 PM permalink
I think youíll see in the interview with Darkoz that he didnít see the info as damaging and that I also explained why it could be. All of this is going to become pretty clear.

Youíre going to also see that Iím trying to help both sides come to an understanding, but Iím doing it in my own way. I donít think attacking people helps, but trying to understand them without making too many assumptions can help.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3815
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
Thanked by
HugoSlaviaMinty
January 12th, 2020 at 1:24:24 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

If you are an AP, even very part time, or you are a friend of an AP you should leave this forum. It is being used as a weapon against APs.

If you don't get why the information darkoz is posting is so damaging, that's understandable. But perhaps everyone who is an AP and sees it as very damaging knows what they are talking about.

This is stuff that really can impact people's lives in a major way. Some of these people have families.

IDK exactly why darkoz is posting it. Only reasons that make sense are, he wants attention and he doesn't get along with certain posters and wants to show them what happens when you mess with him.

Either way he is willing to harm many others with no involvement.

Now, mission is actually publishing articles about it, using the words of myself and others who object to fill out the articles.

Mission's motives are probably clearer. He has unpaid debts to some of these same APs.

So we've got a pair of people who are sabotaging the incomes and lives of others, many perfect strangers who don't even post here, out of some pretty sleazy motivations.

This site not only condones , but actively promotes it.

I was going to write more about why this isn't about free speech (if you can't discuss politics free speech is no longer an issue) and the ethics of betraying your peers. But it really boils down to this.

Do you want APs to be screwed or not?

If this place is going to be about people messing up your livelihood, or the livelihood of someone you care about for petty personal reasons, do your part. Don't participate in this place. Don't provide content. Don't help bring traffic.

It sucks cuz I love butting heads over movies or weed. I love talking about food and sports and even gambling and helping people improve their games, without drawing a diagram for casinos or bookies on how to plug leaks.

But I can't help destroy my own livelihood. I can't contribute here.

Several others have jumped ship already. Do the right thing and join us.



Ridiculous. Nobody destroyed your livelihood. If you are a 1 trick pony and something comes out that affects you, that's your fault for being so narrow in focus. Winning teams adjust to anything thrown at them. So do winning people. I've been here over 10 years. I've seen dozens just like you complain and then leave. I can promise you, it will keep on going.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
Minty
January 12th, 2020 at 1:26:05 PM permalink
To be clear, I understand why they wouldnít want certain information to become more widely known. Youíll see in the interview that I convey these thoughts to DarkOz, but weíre really spoiling the build up here...lol
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
bobbartop
bobbartop
  • Threads: 133
  • Posts: 2595
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
January 12th, 2020 at 2:24:02 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Ridiculous. Nobody destroyed your livelihood. If you are a 1 trick pony and something comes out that affects you, that's your fault for being so narrow in focus. Winning teams adjust to anything thrown at them. So do winning people. I've been here over 10 years. I've seen dozens just like you complain and then leave. I can promise you, it will keep on going.


ZCore13




There's still full pay deuces for quarters. Too bad quarters aren't made of silver anymore. (at $18 an ounce, can you imagine?) ABOLISH THE FED!
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
Thanked by
HugoSlavia
January 12th, 2020 at 2:44:14 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

If you are an AP, even very part time, or you are a friend of an AP you should leave this forum. It is being used as a weapon against APs.

But perhaps everyone who is an AP and sees it as very damaging knows what they are talking about.

This is stuff that really can impact people's lives in a major way. Some of these people have families.

Do you want APs to be screwed or not?

But I can't help destroy my own livelihood. I can't contribute here.

Several others have jumped ship already. Do the right thing and join us.



I edited your post to the important parts.

If I was a casino exec who read the NY AP move I probably would have said wow, that casino made a tactical error and paid for it.

However after reading your post, I probably would be saying holy cow, there are a lot of people doing it. So much there are public calls for a boycott. Now I better investigate.

Good going guys!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 101
  • Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
January 12th, 2020 at 3:06:31 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I edited your post to the important parts.

If I was a casino exec who read the NY AP move I probably would have said wow, that casino made a tactical error and paid for it.

However after reading your post, I probably would be saying holy cow, there are a lot of people doing it. So much there are public calls for a boycott. Now I better investigate.

Good going guys!



No, actually, YOU should have asked around before you decided to print the details of a play you THINK is dead. But I'm less and less confident you did it for the reasons you first said you did.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 3:08:49 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

No, actually, YOU should have asked around before you decided to print the details of a play you THINK is dead. But I'm less and less confident you did it for the reasons you first said you did.



Wait, I have to ask permission lol?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28877
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
January 12th, 2020 at 3:13:35 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Wait, I have to ask permission lol?



I told you last year what darkoz was
and I was told to shut up. A 'see I
told you so' is appropriate here.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 101
  • Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
January 12th, 2020 at 3:16:42 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Wait, I have to ask permission lol?



Wow. You still don't get it.

So far about 12 people have left thanks to you doing this. Probably more I don't know about yet. Nice work there, guy.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
  • Threads: 234
  • Posts: 6704
Joined: May 8, 2015
January 12th, 2020 at 3:16:48 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Ridiculous.




I've noticed several times that you call people's posts ridiculous when they are not ridiculous

I believe your definition of ridiculous is anybody who doesn't see things your way
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 3:18:54 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Wow. You still don't get it.

So far about 12 people have left thanks to you doing this. Probably more I don't know about yet. Nice work there, guy.



Good so maybe I can single handedly eliminate AP's from the web.

I will start posting to all the gambling sites I can
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28877
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
January 12th, 2020 at 3:45:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Good so maybe I can single handedly eliminate AP's from the web.



I thought darkoz made it clear he
doesn't care about APing, he's
only doing it to write a book
nobody will buy. Why is this
a surprise to everybody that
he's now giving away secrets.
Just another chapter for a book
that be at the bottom of the
Amazon best seller list.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 5058
Joined: Apr 30, 2015
Thanked by
BozRSHunterhillRigondeaux
January 12th, 2020 at 3:55:50 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Wow. You still don't get it.

So far about 12 people have left thanks to you doing this. Probably more I don't know about yet. Nice work there, guy.


You can make that 13. I enjoy this forum but not if it condones hurting peopleís livelihoods. Iím logging off and Iím not sure if/when Iíll be back.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. ó Amarillo Slim Preston
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
January 12th, 2020 at 4:07:30 PM permalink
I guess we're going to have to rename him to the Most HATED Secretive Well known Bus Ridding AP On The East Coast,
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
Thanked by
HugoSlavia
January 12th, 2020 at 4:17:33 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I guess we're going to have to rename him to the Most HATED Secretive Well known Bus Ridding AP On The East Coast,



No need!

I think Most Feared has now been proven on its own
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Boz
Boz
  • Threads: 155
  • Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Thanked by
RSRigondeauxonenickelmiracle
January 12th, 2020 at 4:23:36 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Wow. You still don't get it.

So far about 12 people have left thanks to you doing this. Probably more I don't know about yet. Nice work there, guy.



Make it 14 after PG. Only said a brief Hello to Rig once but everyone I respect says the guy is the real deal. To me being trustworthy is the most important thing in the AP community. Iím no FT AP but have made a good amount of money from learning from people who trusted me and helped me. I could never repay that to them but I appreciate the trust shown in me.

Unlike typical Boz Iím not going to go out with a suspension saying what I really think. You all know how to find me.

#supportRig
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 4:35:50 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

If you are an AP, even very part time, or you are a friend of an AP you should leave this forum. It is being used as a weapon against APs.



I will be sorry to see you, but understand why. Thank you for your many years of contributions. I hope there are no hard feelings against me personally as I have zero against you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 4:40:24 PM permalink
Just for the record,

I too am sad to see anyone leave especially if its on my account

I would never quit a forum over this but everyone is different
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TDVegas
TDVegas
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 1186
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
January 12th, 2020 at 4:57:04 PM permalink
Should an AP player even be on a public forum in the first place? Openly discussing?

What did this guy do to force an exodus of members? Curious.
HugoSlavia
HugoSlavia
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 160
Joined: Aug 16, 2017
January 12th, 2020 at 5:08:16 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

What did this guy do to force an exodus of members? Curious.

Mission explained it here:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-1/
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
Mission146
January 12th, 2020 at 5:19:58 PM permalink
Quote: HugoSlavia

Mission explained it here:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-1/

FYI, the fact that Mission wrote that article is what pushed people over the edge.

Some people never learn.(hint to Mission).

I will quote Mission. "You were right Axle, spreading AP information is f****** stupid." or something like that.
Writing about people talking about AP information I'm feeling it front and center on the Forum basically the same thing.

Mission you know I love ya, and it is what it is. I prefer just to drop it all so no real reason to respond. I get it.

P.S. I too am going to abstain from posting for a while.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3815
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
Thanked by
darkoz
January 12th, 2020 at 5:33:46 PM permalink
I wonder If I should quit my job because competitors have stolen my ideas for promotions? They took food out of my families mouth and I had to create new and different ones.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
happahero
happahero
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 8, 2011
Thanked by
RS
January 12th, 2020 at 5:41:04 PM permalink
Quote: Boz

Make it 14 after PG. Only said a brief Hello to Rig once but everyone I respect says the guy is the real deal. To me being trustworthy is the most important thing in the AP community. Iím no FT AP but have made a good amount of money from learning from people who trusted me and helped me. I could never repay that to them but I appreciate the trust shown in me.

Unlike typical Boz Iím not going to go out with a suspension saying what I really think. You all know how to find me.

#supportRig



15th
Dost thou even hoist
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 5:50:00 PM permalink
Maybe this will spur them to form the UAP local 7711

An AP union is what seems in order here

They can all pay dues to help fund Advantage Plays
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 6:00:49 PM permalink
I heard all the magicians are refusing to use YouTube as well since so many magic tricks are being discussed over there

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-virgin-us&source=android-browser&q=magic+three+ropes+trick
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
redietz
redietz
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 767
Joined: Jun 5, 2019
January 12th, 2020 at 6:49:51 PM permalink
This is all interesting to me. I'm a sports bettor, and I can't be data-mined, and I don't really use "angles," so none of this AP debate is applicable to me, but I have questions.

What I don't really understand is darkoz's motivation for exposing a play and his cost/benefit perspective. I guess the latter is what concerns me. I don't get it.

Obviously, the forum owners here have an email address associated with darkoz. My brother-in-law was a big-time PI (even wrote a surveillance book), and my understanding is that once you have an email address, you are 50/50 as a professional to be able to track down someone's real name and address. If the owners of the forum have darkoz's email address(es), then all it'll take to acquire them is money. Throw enough money at it, and you'll have darkoz's email. From there, you have a good start to having darkoz. From there, if people are sufficiently perturbed, it's the end of darkoz.

Maybe that's his goal. Who knows? Create personal risk to sell a book/movie script? Good plan if you survive, I guess, and if you have nobody related to you who is also at risk.

I have no real moral compass on any of this stuff, other than if I had been the person who told darkoz the play originally, and I had acquired a promise from him to not expose it, I would be forced to take matters into my own hands.

It's all fun and games until somebody's siblings wind up in the East River.
"You can't breathe dead hippo waking, sleeping, and eating, and at the same time keep your precarious grip on existence."
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 264
  • Posts: 2282
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
Thanked by
RS
January 12th, 2020 at 7:04:23 PM permalink
Quote: redietz



I have no real moral compass on any of this stuff, other than if I had been the person who told darkoz the play originally, and I had acquired a promise from him to not expose it, I would be forced to take matters into my own hands.

It's all fun and games until somebody's siblings wind up in the East River.



I suppose since I taught myself how to do it I will have to kill myself then, lol
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
Thanked by
Mission146RSMinty
January 12th, 2020 at 7:04:41 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I will be sorry to see you, but understand why. Thank you for your many years of contributions. I hope there are no hard feelings against me personally as I have zero against you.



You're my friend but I think you are quite misguided here.

First, perhaps consider the actual material impact of publicizing what could be termed trade secrets. It's not an abstract matter. It's not about hurt feelings. If this becomes the "Darkoz blows up plays" forum, some people might be in very different places in the future as a result.

If it is wrong to insult someone out of spite, why isn't it wrong to attack their income?

On that note, when I say darkoz is a narcissist, I'm not calling him a jerk or a poopy pants. I'm observing a pattern of behavior. There are many indicators like giving himself grandiose titles.

But the relevant example... A lot of people will step on you for money or love or whatever. A narcissist will step on other people just to satiate their ego. In this case, I think partly to prove his naysayers wrong. Though those people are 1% of those he is hurting, he just doesn't care.

I've also noticed the mask comes off real fast with such people. They evade and deflect for a while but soon enough they show themselves...

Quote: darkoz

No need!

I think Most Feared has now been proven on its own



Yep. That's all this is about.

Any normal person would consider all of the people saying, hey I have no problem with you but you're wrong here. And say, hmmm, maybe I'm wrong.

And even if they still disagreed, they would think, well, is it worth all of this just for me to brag on the internet?

Only one type of person thinks it is.

If someone acting as though they have a malignant personality disorder lashing out at the well being of forum members and others is protected by forum rules but he would be banned for calling them a butt head, the rules need adjustment.

Having said that, there are no NDAs in AP and nothing going on is illegal. So of course you are free to allow it.

But then anyone who is involved with AP or friends or benificiaries of AP would be foolish to contribute.

As I've said, many of us are/were happy to provide a lot of help and guidance, without blowing up the advantages. That helps nobody other than the casinos.

Those people are gonna be gone. All because one man has an insatiable ego.

Quote: darkoz

Good so maybe I can single handedly eliminate AP's from the web.

I will start posting to all the gambling sites I can



Again, these people reveal themselves pretty quickly.

He needs it to be all about him. And it is. It's all about dark Oz now. He wins, everyone else loses.

If that's an outcome you're OK with, so be it. I think it's too bad.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
January 12th, 2020 at 7:10:53 PM permalink
That was almost entirely an extremely measured well-put post that made excellent points.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
redietz
redietz
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 767
Joined: Jun 5, 2019
January 12th, 2020 at 7:23:42 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I suppose since I taught myself how to do it I will have to kill myself then, lol




I noticed you didn't say that you discovered the play. You said that you taught yourself how to do it. Two different things.

I hope you and yours got Kevlar for Christmas. Hey, that would make a great song, "Kevlar for Christmas." Maybe work it into the darkoz feature film, based on the book.

"Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Hollow points whizzing by your nose.
Yuletide dirges being sung by a choir,
Kevlar vests bulk you up like Eskimos...."

I'll work on it.
"You can't breathe dead hippo waking, sleeping, and eating, and at the same time keep your precarious grip on existence."
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3815
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 7:25:50 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

You're my friend but I think you are quite misguided here.

First, perhaps consider the actual material impact of publicizing what could be termed trade secrets. It's not an abstract matter. It's not about hurt feelings. If this becomes the "Darkoz blows up plays" forum, some people might be in very different places in the future as a result.

If it is wrong to insult someone out of spite, why isn't it wrong to attack their income?

On that note, when I say darkoz is a narcissist, I'm not calling him a jerk or a poopy pants. I'm observing a pattern of behavior. There are many indicators like giving himself grandiose titles.

But the relevant example... A lot of people will step on you for money or love or whatever. A narcissist will step on other people just to satiate their ego. In this case, I think partly to prove his naysayers wrong. Though those people are 1% of those he is hurting, he just doesn't care.

I've also noticed the mask comes off real fast with such people. They evade and deflect for a while but soon enough they show themselves...



Yep. That's all this is about.

Any normal person would consider all of the people saying, hey I have no problem with you but you're wrong here. And say, hmmm, maybe I'm wrong.

And even if they still disagreed, they would think, well, is it worth all of this just for me to brag on the internet?

Only one type of person thinks it is.

If someone acting as though they have a malignant personality disorder lashing out at the well being of forum members and others is protected by forum rules but he would be banned for calling them a butt head, the rules need adjustment.

Having said that, there are no NDAs in AP and nothing going on is illegal. So of course you are free to allow it.

But then anyone who is involved with AP or friends or benificiaries of AP would be foolish to contribute.

As I've said, many of us are/were happy to provide a lot of help and guidance, without blowing up the advantages. That helps nobody other than the casinos.

Those people are gonna be gone. All because one man has an insatiable ego.



Again, these people reveal themselves pretty quickly.

He needs it to be all about him. And it is. It's all about dark Oz now. He wins, everyone else loses.

If that's an outcome you're OK with, so be it. I think it's too bad.



Too funny. Maybe I'll start exposing some plays and promotions. Oh wait, I'm probably "allowed" because I work for the "Dark Side". You act like being an AP is some noble position.

I wonder if Derek Web. Is quitting the business and running away because others have taken food out of his families mouths by inventing good 3 card games?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 5058
Joined: Apr 30, 2015
Thanked by
RS
January 12th, 2020 at 7:28:12 PM permalink
Quote: redietz

This is all interesting to me. I'm a sports bettor, and I can't be data-mined, and I don't really use "angles," so none of this AP debate is applicable to me, but I have questions.

What I don't really understand is darkoz's motivation for exposing a play and his cost/benefit perspective. I guess the latter is what concerns me. I don't get it.

Obviously, the forum owners here have an email address associated with darkoz. My brother-in-law was a big-time PI (even wrote a surveillance book), and my understanding is that once you have an email address, you are 50/50 as a professional to be able to track down someone's real name and address. If the owners of the forum have darkoz's email address(es), then all it'll take to acquire them is money. Throw enough money at it, and you'll have darkoz's email. From there, you have a good start to having darkoz. From there, if people are sufficiently perturbed, it's the end of darkoz.

Maybe that's his goal. Who knows? Create personal risk to sell a book/movie script? Good plan if you survive, I guess, and if you have nobody related to you who is also at risk.

I have no real moral compass on any of this stuff, other than if I had been the person who told darkoz the play originally, and I had acquired a promise from him to not expose it, I would be forced to take matters into my own hands.

It's all fun and games until somebody's siblings wind up in the East River.


Darkozís email? Heís posted his full name on the forum in a thread that HE created. If DO cares about the info people know then he has done a terrible job.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/4655-queen-rock-opera-help/

Quote: Darkoz

Sorry again for the long ramble but I wanted you to hear everything.
Thanks, Aaron Denenberg.

You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. ó Amarillo Slim Preston
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 7:39:33 PM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Darkozís email? Heís posted his full name on the forum in a thread that HE created. If DO cares about the info people know then he has done a terrible job.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/4655-queen-rock-opera-help/



Yes, now go out and buy my book.

Its on Amazon

I am not the one who is fearful on here obviously
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
redietz
redietz
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 767
Joined: Jun 5, 2019
January 12th, 2020 at 7:41:20 PM permalink
LOL. Thanks, PokerGrinder. Well, then the man has decided that personal risk is needed to make his book/screenplay saleable. Wow. I guess some folks think bad things never happen.

Good luck with that.

Long live the fearless...and their families.
"You can't breathe dead hippo waking, sleeping, and eating, and at the same time keep your precarious grip on existence."
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 7:43:03 PM permalink
Quote: redietz

I noticed you didn't say that you discovered the play. You said that you taught yourself how to do it. Two different things.

I hope you and yours got Kevlar for Christmas. Hey, that would make a great song, "Kevlar for Christmas." Maybe work it into the darkoz feature film, based on the book.

"Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Hollow points whizzing by your nose.
Yuletide dirges being sung by a choir,
Kevlar vests bulk you up like Eskimos...."

I'll work on it.



Really???

The most ridiculous quibble.

I discovered it.

I taught myself how to do it

No one even on this forum thought of doing it my way.

They arent even upset at my description of the move but at possible hypotheticals that could come from its exposure

No one in my circle is coming to get me because I am the master teaching everyone else within my circle.

The people on my team rely on me. and they will still rely on me regardless of some posts on an internet forum
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
Thanked by
Minty
January 12th, 2020 at 7:50:24 PM permalink
There aren't many people who invent stuff 100% on their own. Issac Newton, of all people, said he stood on the shoulders of giants.

(Jeff Foxworth voice) If you lack the humility of Issac freaking Newton, you just might be a malignant narcissist.

Even if you invent a new way to saw a lady in Half, you owe a debt to people who invented the first way, and to the people who came up with the whole framework of performing illusions for audiences.

And even if you independently conceived of the whole thing while living in a cave, yelling out how the trick is done during someone else's performance of a similar trick is scummy.


Quote: redietz

This is all interesting to me. I'm a sports bettor, and I can't be data-mined, and I don't really use "angles," so none of this AP debate is applicable to me, but I have questions.

What I don't really understand is darkoz's motivation for exposing a play and his cost/benefit perspective. I guess the latter is what concerns me. I don't get it.

Obviously, the forum owners here have an email address associated with darkoz. My brother-in-law was a big-time PI (even wrote a surveillance book), and my understanding is that once you have an email address, you are 50/50 as a professional to be able to track down someone's real name and address. If the owners of the forum have darkoz's email address(es), then all it'll take to acquire them is money. Throw enough money at it, and you'll have darkoz's email. From there, you have a good start to having darkoz. From there, if people are sufficiently perturbed, it's the end of darkoz.

Maybe that's his goal. Who knows? Create personal risk to sell a book/movie script? Good plan if you survive, I guess, and if you have nobody related to you who is also at risk.

I have no real moral compass on any of this stuff, other than if I had been the person who told darkoz the play originally, and I had acquired a promise from him to not expose it, I would be forced to take matters into my own hands.

It's all fun and games until somebody's siblings wind up in the East River.



He's already posted a link to his novel on Amazon, as pg said. I think the chances of violence are remote, but non zero. If he keeps yapping, it probably becomes significant

Being the center of attention and getting back at people who disrespected him > safety of his family.

You just might be...
unJon
unJon 
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4656
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
Thanked by
Rigondeaux
January 12th, 2020 at 8:02:16 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

There aren't many people who invent stuff 100% on their own. Issac Newton, of all people, said he stood on the shoulders of giants.



That line, supposedly, was an insult directed at Newtonís contemporary, fellow member of the Royal Academy and sometimes rival, Robert Hooke. Hooke was a hunchback, hence no ďgiant.Ē

ETA: Newton used the expression in a letter he wrote to Hooke.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Thanked by
Zcore13Mission146ZugaIndyJeffrey
January 12th, 2020 at 8:24:11 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

You're my friend but I think you are quite misguided here.



You make many good points and that was a very well-written post.

Ultimately, there is not a rule against revealing plays here and there is a respect of free speech. Nevertheless, I respect your opinion, a lot.

What is said to Rigondeaux applies to all those leaving -- I harbor no hard feelings and hope you understand my position and harbor none against me. Do what you have to do.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
Thanked by
Mission146MintyIndyJeffrey
January 12th, 2020 at 8:28:43 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Too funny. Maybe I'll start exposing some plays and promotions. Oh wait, I'm probably "allowed" because I work for the "Dark Side". You act like being an AP is some noble position.

I wonder if Derek Web. Is quitting the business and running away because others have taken food out of his families mouths by inventing good 3 card games?


ZCore13



If you were posting about weak dealers at your casino for people to hole card because someone ticked you off, I'd find that unethical.

I don't expect people not connected to AP to be much upset by this issue.

I'm not suggesting anyone quit AP. I'm suggesting the do not participate in sabotaging it.

I've worked for the dark side too. I saw first hand that most of our money came from addicts. I watched regulars mess up their lives. I didn't feel great about it but came to terms with working in a dirty business.

As a poker player, far fewer of my opponents were addicts, but sometimes I do feel bad about, say, cleaning out a drunk. Even if we blame these people, they have families.

My roommate was a gambling addict who stole thousands from me so I know it doesn't just affect the addict.

AP is neutral I think. Your opponents are investors who have made a calculated choice to enter a sleazy battle for money. They have home field advantage. They make all the rules.

You can be a pos as an AP but you can also help people. I try to do the latter. Makes my day to help someone who really needs money to make some fast cash. Not that I do it out of charity, but it's still cool.

I think Most professions are neutral like that and it comes down to how you conduct yourself.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 8:34:56 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

There aren't many people who invent stuff 100% on their own. Issac Newton, of all people, said he stood on the shoulders of giants.

(Jeff Foxworth voice) If you lack the humility of Issac freaking Newton, you just might be a malignant narcissist.

Even if you invent a new way to saw a lady in Half, you owe a debt to people who invented the first way, and to the people who came up with the whole framework of performing illusions for audiences.

And even if you independently conceived of the whole thing while living in a cave, yelling out how the trick is done during someone else's performance of a similar trick is scummy.

..



I dont know why everyone wants me to say someone taught me something I taught, discovered and took advantage of myself.

That is not a lack of humility. That is simply the truth and the way it went down.

Historically there is very little ethics when it comes to discoveries. Anyone who knows the history of who invented the telephone or the movie projector or ether for surgery would question most of the people who claim to know about ethics on here.

BTW, I studied briefly to be a magician (no joke) and today you can purchase very complicated magic acts on the internet for a hundred bucks. My favorite trick was turning 5 $1 bills into 5 $100 bills.

So even your magic secrets comparison falls apart like a wet napkin

https://www.dreamlandmagic.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItsL80-D_5gIVBLbICh3KTQwbEAAYASAAEgLfZPD_BwE

The ethics of magicians, lol
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Minty
Minty
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 536
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
January 12th, 2020 at 8:49:22 PM permalink
I really think the best outcome here would be if DarkOz apologized for revealing what could and no doubt is a significant source of income to many here and agree not to do anything like it again in the future and forum members agree to be nicer to DarkOz. It's hard to know what led to this, but if it was an attempt to prove his value as an AP or get back at those that he perceived to slight him then the years of chiding comments and teasing may have reached a tipping point.

I personally love learning from the APs of this forum and it's one of the reasons I joined after lurking for something like a decade. With that said, after some reflection I think the majority here are right and this much information should not have been exposed so freely. There's a lot of risk in doing something like this and a lot less to be gained. Think about it like this: earnings from your book (and I've heard Richard Munchkin mentioned books hardly pay anything), could completely be eradicated by you killing plays and wising up casino personnel. It's like when casinos cut shoes in half trying to stop counters. They hurt their bottom line by trying to help it. You might be doing the same in blowing high value plays for your own satisfaction or writing.

I'm not leaving, but I think apologies and good faith agreements would be a good place to start for those involved here.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 2549
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
Thanked by
MintyRS
January 12th, 2020 at 9:03:55 PM permalink
So you've put the mask back on for a minute with half baked deflections and nonsense.

I simply don't believe that you independently conceived of advantage play from the ground up. I think you did figure out one particular angle that overlaps with many others.

Posting that info where casino execs can see it is not comparable to buying a magic kit. It is comparable to handing out papers that explain a magicians tricks to people at the box office. That would suck even if you independently conceived of all the tricks.

In other words, you are sabotaging the incomes of your peers, as you well know. And you know it, if for no other reason, because they are telling you so directly. Repeatedly. And not one has defended you.

However, you win. It's all about you. You got back at the people who disrespected you. You sure showed them. Nobody messes with Aaron!

You've disrupted a community that's been together for years. We all had to make changes to our lives because of you. Even those who stay, are losing some members they probably enjoyed. All because of you.

It's the dark Oz show. It's the Aaron show. Everyone is paying attention. Everyone is affected by you. Like cancer. Congratulations. You win.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28877
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
January 12th, 2020 at 9:10:11 PM permalink
edited
Last edited by: EvenBob on Jan 12, 2020
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 4921
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
January 12th, 2020 at 9:13:25 PM permalink
Everyone should leave Kansas, because of tornadoes.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
January 12th, 2020 at 9:17:04 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

So you've put the mask back on for a minute with half baked deflections and nonsense.

I simply don't believe that you independently conceived of advantage play from the ground up. I think you did figure out one particular angle that overlaps with many others.

Posting that info where casino execs can see it is not comparable to buying a magic kit. It is comparable to handing out papers that explain a magicians tricks to people at the box office. That would suck even if you independently conceived of all the tricks.

In other words, you are sabotaging the incomes of your peers, as you well know. And you know it, if for no other reason, because they are telling you so directly. Repeatedly. And not one has defended you.

However, you win. It's all about you. You got back at the people who disrespected you. You sure showed them. Nobody messes with Aaron!

You've disrupted a community that's been together for years. We all had to make changes to our lives because of you. Even those who stay, are losing some members they probably enjoyed. All because of you.

It's the dark Oz show. It's the Aaron show. Everyone is paying attention. Everyone is affected by you. Like cancer. Congratulations. You win.



Wow, so again my ability is questioned.

I have been very truthful from day one on this forum. Not saying I said things that were not always incorrect but was always truthful to a fault.

It sounds to me like the APs on here realize they arent so good. They cannot believe someone could think of major plays on their own which means the AP,s on here pretty much couldnt do it for themselves

Well, I am sorry I am so good and thats about the only apology I feel obligated to hand out.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
  • Threads: 54
  • Posts: 1582
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
January 12th, 2020 at 9:29:42 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

They took food out of my families mouth...


ZCore13



How many families ya got?

;)
Vote for Nobody 2020!
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28877
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
January 12th, 2020 at 9:30:57 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Yes, now go out and buy my book.
Its on Amazon



I checked it out. Oh. My. Dear. God.

First of all, it's self published, big
surprise. Second, in 10 years it's
gotten 4 reviews, of which only
1 is from a verified purchaser.
The other 3 reviews are from
friends of yours, or from people
who didn't buy it. 4 reviews in
10 years means no sales.

I read what was free to read.
Did you have anybody edit
this thing for you? Here's
an example of what I mean:



Do you see what you did there? Oops.
What I read is riddled with amateur
mistakes. Way too many hyphenated
words. The writing is either rambling
or short and jerky. The plot is confusing.
The characters are undeveloped and
undefined. Hollywood turned this down?
This shocks you?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Minty
Minty
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 536
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
January 12th, 2020 at 9:34:09 PM permalink
When trying to put out a fire, it's often best not to add a bunch of wood and gasoline to it. There's got to be some part of you that realizes that maybe you've said too much and your actions can have negative consequences, right? I think a lot of people really enjoy your presence here, but it's like you're deliberately pushing them away. If you are in a low point in your life or are feeling down that's ok, and there are good ways to work through it, but becoming combative isn't the way. Reach out to someone if you want some support.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
  • Jump to: