Discussion III about the Suspension List
Quote: Marcusclark66Kids love the saying, “but daddy I won’t do that anymore that was a long time ago”.
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Daddies hate stepping on Legos.
Quote: DieterQuote: Marcusclark66Kids love the saying, “but daddy I won’t do that anymore that was a long time ago”.
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Daddies hate stepping on Legos.
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Hot wheels and Matchbox cars as well.
Quote: Marcusclark66Hot wheels and Matchbox cars as well.
I played with die cast Dinky Toys and Dinky Super Toys when I was a kid.
A few years ago I started a new collection and now have over 150 of them.
It is such a hoot and a joy to join my seven year old grandson in taking the toys off the shelves, putting them on the carpet, and just "playing" with them.
He is a Godzilla nut, so Godzilla is usually involved.
Ah, life: accept no substitute.
Also, I notice that suspensions (Nukes) of people with multiple accounts may not be shown 100% of the time, especially if the identities have not been recently active.
So, the Suspension list is not intended to be a rigorously complete list.
Quote: gordonm888So, the Suspension list is not intended to be a rigorously complete list.
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You're exactly right. People with very few and low-quality posts who get nuked do not generally get the honor of making the Suspension List.
Personal insult against EvenBob https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36559-buh-bye/2/#post829330Quote: Marcusclark66Why is Axelwolf suspended? Yet Again.
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Quote: OnceDearPersonal insult against EvenBob https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36559-buh-bye/2/#post829330Quote: Marcusclark66Why is Axelwolf suspended? Yet Again.
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EB IMO is a pretty cool person, maybe a bit heavy on the food, but still pretty cool.
Really EB should come back!
Well, it's his choice. If you pine for him, he still posts on DT.Quote: Marcusclark66Quote: OnceDearPersonal insult against EvenBob https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36559-buh-bye/2/#post829330Quote: Marcusclark66Why is Axelwolf suspended? Yet Again.
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EB IMO is a pretty cool person, maybe a bit heavy on the food, but still pretty cool.
Really EB should come back!
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http://diversitytomorrow.com/member/evenbob/posts/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36338-discussion-iii-about-the-suspension-list/7/#post825434
And the purpose of this post was to placate him? Or insult him in his absence?Quote: MDawgIf one has a certain off sense of humor BillRyan’s posts (almost all of them - almost each one exhibits the same qualities) might be endearing but to most, they come off as sneeringly derisive, as if he lives to rabble rouse.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36338-discussion-iii-about-the-suspension-list/7/#post825434
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If you don't like his (posts) style, then block him.
Quote: MDawgI don't believe that Wizard was talking solely about management decisions with his general statement of BRyan's being a "chronic complainer and critic for months, perhaps years," but, maybe I got that part wrong.
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The basis of the Suspension relevant to the quote was complaining about Forum Administration. The reason cited for the Suspension was a post that, in its entirety, complained about Forum Administration. I guess you could make an argument for reading more than that into the quote, but I don't see it.
Besides, given that he blatantly cussed BillRyan out, (both knowing and not caring that he would be Suspended-which is fine) Bluejay is not exactly blameless on this one. In any event, I tend to agree with OnceDear's position that the best thing both can do (assuming both return) is block one another.
Quote: MDawgWell in general MBluejay gets to the boiling point where he lets loose with profanity or other insults (I think you can relate, no?), while BRyan is better at laying down the deadpan "chronic complaining and critical" posts one after another until his target blows up.
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I can definitely relate to that. As far as DT and WoV are concerned, I've never received a Suspension that I didn't know was coming. In fact, I'll make my post and PM a mod to Suspend me for it immediately after.
Point being, nothing about BillRyan's discourse with Bluejay, as far as I can tell, was in any way relevant to Forum Administration...and I didn't read anything more than Billryan's complaints about Forum Administration into Wizard's post.
Quote: MDawgIf one has a certain off sense of humor BillRyan’s posts might be endearing but to most
.
it's really helpful to have a sense of humor when reading your posts too
.
Quote: MDawg... I believe you might have missed the point in your suspension of him solely for bullying. Back of most everything BRyan posts is the sort of thing the Wizard clarified below.
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You might have missed that it was Dieter that marked BR's suspension as being because of bullying. In the suspension list, I put Trolling,Bullying and almost put personal insult. Since Bill came back from his most recent suspension, he has made some very measured posts with a thinly veiled tone that is critical of forum moderator policy. None of his posts were actionable in isolation, but when he upset MBJ to the level that MBJ came out with profanity, I figured we had the straw that broke the camels back. In an incident like that, where a member has been pushed to the level of an angry profanity laced reponse, should we only penalise the 'victim' of the trolling/bullying. 7 days each seemed equitable to me.
Remember that Wizard had already expressed his own exasperation with Bill. It's my understanding that Wizard might have imposed a longer penalty on Bill.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, The nub of BillRyan's issue with moderation policy seems to be that he is frustrated at what he sees as pervasive 'fiction' presented on a fact/maths based forum, and that some of that alleged 'fiction' causes suspension or loss of various good members.
Now. We moderators receive plenty of feedback and complaints, some about policy and some about the behaviour of other members. We even get third party complaints about personal insults:
E.g. X reports a post where Y insulted Z. There's a pejorative word for that kind of behaviour.
I'll re-present Wizard's opinion: If you don't like what a member posts, your primary option is to block or ignore them rather than complaining openly or by PM.
And anyone who vehemently objects to WOV moderator policy is welcome to start his own forum, or to find one more to his taste. We are all but guests here.
Quote: OnceDear7 days each seemed equitable to me.
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I approve of penalizing both the instigator and the victim equally. It wasn't always that way.
By the way, I think if you ask the Wizard directly he will confirm that when he made that post about suspending BillRyan in September that it wasn't solely about his criticism of management decisions - that by "chronic complainer and critic" he also was referring to his sneeringly derisive comments about most everything that everyone posts at WOV.
Quote: MDawgI approve of penalizing both the instigator and the victim equally. It wasn't always that way.
By the way, I think if you ask the Wizard directly he will confirm that when he made that post about suspending BillRyan in September that it wasn't solely about his criticism of management decisions - that by "chronic complainer and critic" he also was referring to his sneeringly derisive comments about most everything that everyone posts at WOV.
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No offense meant MDawg, but when you refer to 'sneeringly derisive comments' I have to ask myself whether you are implying that the poster is 'Sneeringly derisive'? After all, those properties apply better to a poster than to a post.
So, whether intended or not, whether I'm misinterpreting or not, maybe we could lighten up on implicitly criticising Bill while he is not here to defend himself. Indeed, let's not make any further judgement of his character.
Moderator policy has been applied. He's serving his time.
Let's prepare to welcome him back kindly at the end of his term. Not inflame his mood in his absense.
In any case, no, my comment referred to the tone of the posts not the character of the poster.
Quote: MDawgI don't know what BillRyan's persona or character is. And, as I have posted before and discussed with the Wizard in person, sometimes with some posters an alter ego appears online which is different from the real person. This might apply to anyone here, including me. In other words, it is not so much that forums bring out the worst in people, which is what the Wizard once suggested to me, but that it sometimes brings out some kind of alter ego.
In any case, no, my comment referred to the tone of the posts not the character of the poster.
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I have much less of a temper on the forums. That aside, I'm basically the same.
Quote: MDawg
I approve of penalizing both the instigator and the victim equally.
it's really great that you're offering some guidance
everybody wants for the forum to be managed in accordance with your approval
.
Quote: MDawgI don't know what BillRyan's persona or character is. And, as I have posted before and discussed with the Wizard in person, sometimes with some posters an alter ego appears online which is different from the real person.
Oh this is rich.
Quote: MDawgI don't know what BillRyan's persona or character is. And, as I have posted before and discussed with the Wizard in person, sometimes with some posters an alter ego appears online which is different from the real person. This might apply to anyone here, including me. In other words, it is not so much that forums bring out the worst in people, which is what the Wizard once suggested to me, but that it sometimes brings out some kind of alter ego.
In any case, no, my comment referred to the tone of the posts not the character of the poster.
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First let me mind everyone that we discourage or forbid disapproving discussion of a member during his suspension - the suspended member is unable to defend himself. In this case, that means you should stop talking about Billryan in a negative way.
MDawg, the moderators don't need advice about being watchful for sock-puppets, and we don't need thinly veiled speculation without any evidence from either you or McAllister. Put a sock in it.
Quote: gordonm888
and we don't need thinly veiled speculation without any evidence from either you or McAllister.
mcallister didn't speculate about anything
.
Quote: gordonm888Quote: MDawgI don't know what BillRyan's persona or character is. And, as I have posted before and discussed with the Wizard in person, sometimes with some posters an alter ego appears online which is different from the real person. This might apply to anyone here, including me. In other words, it is not so much that forums bring out the worst in people, which is what the Wizard once suggested to me, but that it sometimes brings out some kind of alter ego.
In any case, no, my comment referred to the tone of the posts not the character of the poster.
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First let me mind everyone that we discourage or forbid disapproving discussion of a member during his suspension - the suspended member is unable to defend himself. In this case, that means you should stop talking about Billryan in a negative way.
MDawg, the moderators don't need advice about being watchful for sock-puppets, and we don't need thinly veiled speculation without any evidence from either you or McAllister. Put a sock in it.
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Excuse me???????
Quote: gordonm888
First let me mind everyone that we discourage or forbid disapproving discussion of a member during his suspension - the suspended member is unable to defend himself. In this case, that means you should stop talking about Billryan in a negative way.
MDawg, the moderators don't need advice about being watchful for sock-puppets, and we don't need thinly veiled speculation without any evidence from either you or McAllister. Put a sock in it.
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I do not believe that is what Mcallister's post was intended to convey.
Quote: WizardI just noticed we have not had a suspension since October.
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This forum is designed to be self moderating...
Does that mean one is due?
Quote: mwalz9As the system players would say...
Does that mean one is due?
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OK. We have a decision.Quote: Wizard Bolding mine....
I am still furious about the Marcus statement. However, I don't like to make decisions when on an emotional high or low. Plus, it involves me, so there would clearly be bias. Thus, I will leave sentencing, including none at all, up to the other admins. Let the record show I am absolutely pressing charges for, at the least, false quoting.
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Whether he intended it or not, MarcusClark66 mischaracterized Wizard's previous statements about MDawg.
This has clearly annoyed Wizard, who was inclined to penalise Marcus with a suspension for 'false quoting'. But we try not to impose penalties based on mood or anger or offence felt, even by Wizard or moderators.
As I see it, what Marcus did was not exactly what I would call a 'false-quote', nor 'putting words into wizard's mouth', but he did strongly imply a high level of endorsement or verification of the whole of MDawgs contribution here. Wizard has only verified observations of a very few specific facets of MDawg's posts.
The moderators have discussed appropriate penalties and penalty has been set at 3 days suspension including time served.
Upon his return, MarcusClark is advised to be sure to not try to attribute any sort of endorsement or verification of anybody by anybody.
Again, not specific to anything or anyone.....just seems like it would be a clever way to operate. :/
But the real dastardly use of a sock puppet is for someone making claims or something that haze ZERO credibility with any of the members, then creates a sock puppet to support him, so he gains some credibility. For this one the classic example was Rob Singer/Jerry Logan, although there may be more recent really good examples. (eyeroll)
Quote: kewljSo I am just thinking.....NOT specific to this situation or anyone specific, but wouldn't it be convenient to have a sock puppet so that anything "questionable" you wanted to say or claim, the suck puppet would receive a suspension while the main account just went merrily on it's way?
Again, not specific to anything or anyone.....just seems like it would be a clever way to operate. :/
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Pretty sure Nathan did this. No one else I can think of…
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: kewljSo I am just thinking.....NOT specific to this situation or anyone specific, but wouldn't it be convenient to have a sock puppet so that anything "questionable" you wanted to say or claim, the suck puppet would receive a suspension while the main account just went merrily on it's way?
Again, not specific to anything or anyone.....just seems like it would be a clever way to operate. :/
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Pretty sure Nathan did this. No one else I can think of…
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We often discover marketing teams doing something similar. One would ask a question like where is a good bitcoin casino, and the sock would answer with a link. Some marketers get quite subtle, joining in random threads for a while. We get most eventually.
We also suspect some members of mischief as KJ describes. How we deal with them varies. The tech guys have implemented a few features to help us detect such miscreants, so they do that at their peril. Recall that the moderation here is not a court of law. We do not NEED proof to remove any user Id.
Quote: Site FAQ bolding mine
Think of the site as a “kingdom” not a democracy nor a dictatorship. If the site owners have a problem with behavior, action will be taken. You do not have a court to appeal to. However, it is not a dictatorship where folks with the “wrong” opinion are executed. Using common sense will avoid 99% of potential problems.
Quote: rulesThese rules should be considered as a guideline of what we will not tolerate. Just because a behavior is not on this list does not mean it will be tolerated or go unpunished. The administration reserves the right to punish any activity it deems disruptive to the forum, whether against these rules or not.
Quote: kewljAnd let me say this about sock puppets: The common use of a sock puppet is for someone banned to return with a new account. That is the one many people almost have fun with. Think, Nathan/karen or Buzz.
But the real dastardly use of a sock puppet is for someone making claims or something that haze ZERO credibility with any of the members, then creates a sock puppet to support him, so he gains some credibility. For this one the classic example was Rob Singer/Jerry Logan, although there may be more recent really good examples. (eyeroll)
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Without revealing any methods, let me say that this forum does take countermeasures to detect sock puppets. Paranoia about sock puppets may be fun to roll around in, but to date, there is no evidence that MarcusClarke is a sock puppet of MDawg, which is what you are clearly implying and there is indeed circumstantial evidence that he is not a sock puppet.
If you have evidence, then please state it. Otherwise eyeroll your eyes back into your head and go about your business and stop disparaging people by artful insinuation.
Nice expression, I'll save that for later.Quote: gordonm888..artful insinuation.
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Mcallister, am I disparaging you by artfully insinuating that 'someone' is disparaging gordon by artfully insinuating that gordon is disparaging KewlJ by artfully insinuating that Marcus is a sock of MDawg?Quote: mcallister3200Can’t help but notice disparaging a member within the same sentence as instructing said member not to disparage others. Rules for thee, not for me or something.
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If so, I apologise. It was not intentional. I'm not that clever. $:o)
I also implicitly rebuke me for implicitly rebuking mcallister for implicitly rebuking gordon for implicitly rebuking KewlJ for ...
Feels Like we are stuck in a hall of mirrors.
Let's all eyeroll our eyes back into our heads and go about our business
Subtle!Quote: rxwineThere is a site to direct people to for fans. OnlyFans.
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