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TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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April 16th, 2016 at 7:01:25 AM permalink
I call your edit, you're bluffing...
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
MrV
MrV
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April 16th, 2016 at 10:23:52 AM permalink
Regarding the recent suspensions of members for inappropriate flagging:

The USA is a nation of laws; people are expected to follow the rules.

The rules are required to have been published and knowable to the public: you cannot be punished if no law prohibits it: call it "Notice and opportunity to comply."

It seems that some members flagged a post, and the Wiz didn't like the fact that they did so, so he suspended them.

Which would have been fine, except so far as I can tell there was no rule prohibiting that conduct in effect at the time, at least none which had been in existence long enough for people to know about it and govern themselves accordingly.

As justification for the suspensions, the following new rule was posted YESTERDAY to the list of rules: "Flagging: The primary purpose of flagging is to rid the forum of spam but can also be used for other obvious rule violations. Flagging legitimate posts, for any reason, is not allowed. (Added 4/15/2016)"

It is unfair to invent a new rule, a rule nobody knew existed, and suspend people for its violation BASED ON CONDUCT WHICH PREDATED THE NEW RULE.

We the American People abolished such Ex Post Facto laws / rules a couple hundred years ago.
Last edited by: MrV on Apr 16, 2016
"What, me worry?"
MrV
MrV
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April 16th, 2016 at 10:54:50 AM permalink
I'm not screaming bloody murder, heck it's only a short suspension from a message board.

But this thread is for discussing the rules, and I'd be remiss in not pointing out the Ex Post Facto angle.

Whatever, life goes on.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 16th, 2016 at 11:23:23 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Ok. I'm going to give you 1 day of it, starting now, then Axel serves the third one himself (he's done 1).



Because Axel's stability in the casino depends
directly on this place, I will volunteer to take
his 3rd day. It's the humane thing to do..
It does not suck to be me.
chickenman
chickenman
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April 16th, 2016 at 11:24:21 AM permalink
Most excellent.
Face
Administrator
Face
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April 16th, 2016 at 12:06:13 PM permalink
Quote: MrV


But this thread is for discussing the rules, and I'd be remiss in not pointing out the Ex Post Facto angle.



Regarding the rule in question, wasn't it just the final sentence (flagging valid posts) that got added? I could swear there was literature addressing this.

Perhaps I am confusing it with in-thread conversations that have been had. I recall dust ups from the Logan/Singer days where an as of yet unidentified sock was being busted by the masses, and a sort of powwow was had regarding the proper use of the flag option. I suppose your argument could still stand as that was not a "written rule" and you can't expect people to remember snippets they may have not even read 5 years ago, but... I don't know. I always looked at it as "this ain't mine", to include the thing my own self writes. So to use the forum software to "take" what wasn't theirs, while perhaps not expressly forbidden, should have still struck some as wrong.

I do reckon you'd win in court, but that's the best thing about dictatorships. No lawyers ;)
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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April 16th, 2016 at 12:31:28 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Because Axel's stability in the casino depends
directly on this place, I will volunteer to take
his 3rd day. It's the humane thing to do..



Request denied. Since you had nothing to do with it, you may not serve any of Axel's time.
ďExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.Ē -- Carl Sagan
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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April 16th, 2016 at 12:34:52 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Regarding the recent suspensions of members for inappropriate flagging:

The USA is a nation of laws; people are expected to follow the rules....

It is unfair to invent a new rule, a rule nobody knew existed, and suspend people for its violation BASED ON CONDUCT WHICH PREDATED THE NEW RULE.

We the American People abolished such Ex Post Facto laws / rules a couple hundred years ago.



First of all, I am arguing that the flagging was a violation of rule 9 against trolling and bullying. I amended the rule list to add this situation in the interests of clarity.

Second, I never said this forum was a democracy. Perhaps a dictatorship would be the better comparison.
ďExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.Ē -- Carl Sagan
RonC
RonC
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April 16th, 2016 at 12:46:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Second, I never said this forum was a democracy. Perhaps a dictatorship would be the better comparison.



...which is why I always say my opinion matters little most of the time; probably not at all here...but I will still state my opinion anyway. I believe that the flagging of acceptable posts should be frowned on but this is a new use of the term "bullying" and it seems a stern warning about this being unacceptable should have been the end of it...this time...

The board is better when less people are suspended. When in doubt, not suspending should be the answer.

We've lost a lot of good members and I know this is a dictatorship, but the less good contributors we lose moving forward, the better.
terapined
terapined
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April 16th, 2016 at 1:45:04 PM permalink
I always wondered how flagging worked in the background?
If a post just gets 1 flag, is it ignored"?
I hope so because in the several years I have posted here
A few times I have hit flag instead of quote or reply by mistake
I got to figure this dumb mistake by me has been by others as well
Just a slight shift of the mouse and boom, you just flagged somebody.
If flagging is an issue, maybe program in a question after hitting flag "are you sure you want to flag, click yes or no"
Do admins ignore single flags?
How many flags on a single post attract attention? 2?
WOV supports censorship. Bring back free speech challenging lies.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 16th, 2016 at 1:57:31 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

...A few times I have hit flag instead of quote or reply by mistake..


Happens a lot, mainly due to the location of the flag button and my "back button" on my phone. Usually I try and leave a message saying it was a mistake.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 16th, 2016 at 2:04:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Request denied. Since you had nothing to do with it, you may not serve any of Axel's time.



Oh well, it was the gesture that counts.
It does not suck to be me.
Dalex64
Dalex64
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April 16th, 2016 at 2:55:59 PM permalink
It is an automated process, requiring no moderator intervention.

People have a weighted vote, and when enough weight has been put on the flag button, the post goes away.

The enjoyable part of that is seeing a spam post disappear with you casting the final necessary vote.

Perhaps a couple of useful new features would be that instead of removing the post, the post became only visible to moderators, the moderators get notification that it happened, and all posts have visible only to the moderators the names of the people who have flagged the post, even if the post hasn't become hidden yet.

Un-flag would be useful to me as well - several times on my small screen I have accidentally clicked on the flag button.
RonC
RonC
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April 24th, 2016 at 5:31:44 AM permalink
The outcome of the QFIT/Kewlj issue is still a huge negative for the forum. We've lost Kewlj's input on both gambling and other topics and gotten absolutely nothing in return. The more posters like Kewlj that go down the tubes, the less interesting this forum becomes. It may be 100% true that the outcome was correct based on the issue between the two gentleman but it still has had a negative impact on the board. QFIT has only shown up here to defend himself. No other contributions in quite a while.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 24th, 2016 at 5:41:23 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

The outcome of the QFIT/Kewlj issue is still a huge negative for the forum. We've lost Kewlj's input on both gambling and other topics and gotten absolutely nothing in return. The more posters like Kewlj that go down the tubes, the less interesting this forum becomes. It may be 100% true that the outcome was correct based on the issue between the two gentleman but it still has had a negative impact on the board. QFIT has only shown up here to defend himself. No other contributions in quite a while.

Someone told me that QFIT supports/recommends some football tout who's on his site and sells picks or something.

I don't know all the facts however if there's any truth to that I can understand Kewlj's beef.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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April 24th, 2016 at 6:23:49 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Someone told me that QFIT supports/recommends some football tout who's on his site and sells picks or something.

I don't know all the facts however if there's any truth to that I can understand Kewlj's beef.



Dan Gordon. He doesn't like shill or for him or anything. Believe he has software or something that supports/has Gordon's rankings/parameters or whatever. Gordon is a member there but doesn't really ever participate other Than a couple times a year says his opinion on a game and doesn't try to push or sell his books or picks on the site.

How would that be related to KJ's beef though? 99.92% of touts are scammers and s***heads, but it's a completely unrelated issue. Lots of online casinos are sketchy af, but I don't hold it against WoV owners for allowing some to advertise.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Apr 24, 2016
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:19:26 AM permalink
Ah yeah. I meant to cross post this here.

It came up in this thread. Note, I did not go digging this up. Someone else posted it in another discussion. This was the first time I can remember visiting qfits site.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/sports/25230-tailing-a-pro-math-help/2/


Here is how it is relevant to KJ. KJ suggested that QFIT allowed dishonest operators to propagate bad gambling advice that could be dangerous to newcomers. I am not knowledgeable enough about BJ to know if this is true, though other people who are seem to agree.

However, I am knowledgeable about sports and here is QFIT in no uncertain terms endorsing a fraud on his site.

https://www.qfit.com/nfl-football-software.htm

I don't know who wrote the article. If it was Dan, it is a deceptive article because it is made to look like a neutral endorsement. If it was QFIT, he is endorsing a fraud.

I do not know for sure if QFIT makes money if people buy the worthless products that are linked to, and more importantly, begin a relationship with the tout, Dan Gordon. But it certainly looks to be the case.

Whatever "truce" he was pressured into making, KewlJs characterizations of the site were accurate. It has information that could be dangerous to a new gambler. Getting involved with someone like Dan Gordon could cost the right person tens of thousands of dollars. I would discourage a new gambler from going to QFIT's site myself. If some truce existed between me and QFIT and a noob was like, "hey I'm going to go to that site for sports betting advice" I too would feel compelled to break it and speak my mind.

We can see IN THE WOV THREAD ABOVE, naive gamblers being led to mistaken belief about touts, partially because of that article.

I find it extremely hard to reconcile the Wizard's "free speech, public information is good" stance, as in the Plaza thread and the position that KewlJ should not make an earnest warning to new gamblers about a site that pedals bad advice.

I did not know that the latter point was true, about QFIT pedaling bad advice, but now we can see it as a fact. It's right there.

We've also seen, in this thread only a few pages ago, QFIT make false allegations of personal attacks and slander, and dubious insinuations of antisemitism (in the interpretation of everyone but him.)

So, we lost perhaps the single most valuable forum member, a guy who put in hundreds if not thousands of hours making this a better place and helping people, because he told the truth about something as a matter of conscience.

IMHO, he is owed an apology. I know Mike an the admins were trying to be even handed, but the more that comes to light, the more it becomes clear that even handedness was a bad approach because KJ was basically right about all the facts and expressing a legitimate opinion.

Actually, I think KewlJ probably earned the right to make a mistake himself. But, it turns out that he didn't.

Note: One can take a "buyer beware" view. Maybe QFIT's position is that he does not absolutely know the good from bad advice and so he just markets it all, and the reader should be cautious. I'm not as militantly anti-tout as some. But the point isn't that QFIT is a horrible guy, it is that KewlJ's claims are factually accurate and his heart was in the right place.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:24:55 AM permalink
Quote: QFIT


Given your comparison to "fraudulent sports touts", "con artists", etc.; It appears his false accusations worked. This is exactly why such false accusations should be halted in their tracks.



I wasn't actually comparing QFIT to a tout in the relevant post. I was suggesting that KewlJ saw him as analogous to someone like Colin Cowherd who gives them a platform.

But, woops.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:38:50 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



However, I am knowledgeable about sports and here is QFIT in no uncertain terms endorsing a fraud on his site.

https://www.qfit.com/nfl-football-software.htm

I don't know who wrote the article. If it was Dan, it is a deceptive article because it is made to look like a neutral endorsement. If it was QFIT, he is endorsing a fraud.

I do not know for sure if QFIT makes money if people buy the worthless products that are linked to, and more importantly, begin a relationship with the tout, Dan Gordon. But it certainly looks to be the case.



Wow, that didn't take long for him to remove the post after you just linked to it. Very fishy.

I'm with Kewl!

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:40:39 AM permalink
Maybe I should stipulate that, there is only a 99.92% chance that Dan Gordon is a fraud, to use mcallister3200's estimate. You can see the discussion in the thread, along with links to Dan's sites which might nudge it up to 99.992% with the bogus sounding testimonials and so forth.

It is logically possible that a guy panhandling for customers on facebook crushes the NFL and is willing to give up his info for $900/yr and that his picks don't influence the lines, etc. It is just extremely unlikely.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:48:47 AM permalink
This is a shameful, slanderous post. Iíve known Dan Gordon for probably 15 years. Heís nuts and I no longer communicate with him. But, heís absolutely honest and has a knowledge of football thatís unbelievable. Name a date in the last 30 years, and if there was a football game on that day; heíll recite the details from memory. Dan penned sports columns for mainstream newspapers including the San Francisco Examiner, Boston Herald, Los Angeles Herald Examiner, and Village Voice. He was advisor to Pete Axthelm when he was on NBC and ESPN until Axthelmís untimely death. Comparing him to some IíNet tout that claims 80% winning picks or money-back guarantees is ludicrous. He has a 56.5% win rate, which is entirely possible. Name any fraud that makes such a reasonable claim. He also states outright that you will have losing years.

It was just asked again why I donít contribute here. Why would I contribute where a handful of posters continue to make foul accusations of fraud against me?

The page you linked to is obsolete and has not been pointed to anywhere on my site for many years. I just removed it.

As for your claim that I accused KJ of being anti-Semitic, thatís a lie. But, he still continues to post to a Holocaust-denial site that has had new anti-Semitic posts every day for as long as I can remember. It disgusts me that anyone would support such a site. KJ posted three days ago on that site that he will celebrate on the day I die. (Incidentally, there have been two death threats (using a Bushmaster AR15) against me on that site.)
Last edited by: QFIT on Apr 24, 2016
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:55:14 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

Maybe I should stipulate that, there is only a 99.92% chance that Dan Gordon is a fraud, to use mcallister3200's estimate. You can see the discussion in the thread, along with links to Dan's sites which might nudge it up to 99.992% with the bogus sounding testimonials and so forth.

It is logically possible that a guy panhandling for customers on facebook crushes the NFL and is willing to give up his info for $900/yr and that his picks don't influence the lines, etc. It is just extremely unlikely.



That's your evidence? Dan demands that his handful of clients bet in small amounts to avoid changing lines. He has actually canceled clients when he has discovered that they are over-betting. Seriously, before besmirching someone's reputation on a public forum, you need actual evidence, ar at least point to absurd claims.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:57:30 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Wow, that didn't take long for him to remove the post after you just linked to it. Very fishy.

I'm with Kewl!

ZCore13



Maybe he realized it was something he did not want on his site and took it down so his site would be better.

I want to emphasize that I'm not out to prove QFIT is a bad person. I know it is very hard to put information out about gambling without leading people to -ev. I have a picks site myself. Though the picks are free, I link to online books. Maybe that's not what Jesus would do. I've considered doing a paid newsletter with some other guys. Even if you give good advice, most people will lose money trying to follow it. I've also worked on the darkside, scooping up money from people who should be using to buy their kids school clothes.

But, if someone merely pointed that stuff out, they would be doing nothing wrong. That's the issue.

Anyway, here's the gist of the removed page:

Quote: Wizard

Link removed by management out of copyright concerns.

Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Apr 25, 2016
RS
RS
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April 24th, 2016 at 9:57:55 AM permalink
Quote: QFIT

That's your evidence? Dan demands that his handful of clients bet in small amounts to avoid changing lines. He has actually canceled clients when he has discovered that they are over-betting. Seriously, before besmirching someone's reputation on a public forum, you need actual evidence, ar at least point to absurd claims.



It's funny you say that...
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:03:16 AM permalink
Yes, KJ has made innumerable, evidence-free accusations of fraud against a number of people hundreds of times over the last seven months on five forums. Just yesterday he made another post filled with outright lies. (A follow-up to the post where he said he will celebrate on the day I die.) Seriously, if anyone here is a real friend to this man, you should stop defending increasingly bizarre behavior and engage in an intervention before he hurts himself or someone else.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
RonC
RonC
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:10:50 AM permalink
Quote: QFIT

Yes, KJ has made innumerable, evidence-free accusations of fraud against a number of people hundreds of times over the last seven months on five forums. Just yesterday he made another post filled with outright lies. (A follow-up to the post where he said he will celebrate on the day I die.) Seriously, if anyone here is a real friend to this man, you should stop defending increasing bizarre behavior and engage in an intervention before he hurts himself or someone else.



We're not talking about what he has done on other forums here. I guess that played somehow into Mike's decision, but I could really give two craps about other forums. This is this forum and I see where Kewlj was a legitimate and thoughtful contributor and you seem more like someone who swooped in for a few minutes and brought a boatload of trouble to bear for the forum. No false allegations or accusations there--that is a 100% true statement. Truces, other forums, whatever...they are not any part of what I am addressing.

I don't know what Kewlj is doing on any other forward and I don't really give a darn about what you or he does somewhere else (short of actual criminal acts--not just perceived slights).
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:17:18 AM permalink
KJ made scores of posts on this site falsely accusing four members of BJTF of fraud. He accused me, here, of purposely allowing misleading posts to somehow make money off of new players.

Again, why would I contribute to a site which keeps restarting these absurd accusations? And now claims that I make money from a sports fraud?

An apology to Dan Gordon is in order and an honest site would remove all of this.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:19:55 AM permalink
Want to point out that i didn't specifically say anything about Dan, just what many here already know that many other touts a little shady. Feel like my words got twisted, didn't seem intentional or malicious toward me though. Dan probably gets assumptions made about him all the time based on being someone who sells pics, doesn't mean it's right to make assumptions though.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:42:39 AM permalink
Quote: QFIT



An apology to Dan Gordon is in order and an honest site would remove all of this.

Just do whatever you did last time.

Wizard protects free speech.

Note to self: Don't claim 80% win rates, keep it low to around 56% so people don't get suspicious or call you a fraud .

56.5 WIN RATE!!! WTF IS HE DOING SELLING PICKS??????? JUST BET THEM YOURSELF AND STFU!!

This guy reminds me of this song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7PuWRyXceY
JOE WALSH lifes been good.
I have a mansion forget the price
Ain't never been there they tell me it's nice

My Maserati does 185

I have a limo, ride in the back

They say I'm crazy but I have a good time

Read more: Joe Walsh - Life's Been Good Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Apr 24, 2016
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:50:08 AM permalink
He does bet them. But, he makes small bets that won't change the line. I followed his picks for couple of years. I saw no false claims. His client base is very small. But, they are incredibly loyal. A tout makes absurd claims, makes lots of picks, pulls in a large number of suckers, refunds to some losers, and makes money on the winners. Blackjack scam systems make money in the same manner. The claim that Dan is a fraud is totally without merit or evidence.

There are two posters on BJTF that provide picks. One used to be a handicapper for a book. Neither of them charge anything to anyone.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:53:58 AM permalink
I have zero respect for qfit in regards to this forum. He NEVER posts unless he is just trying defend himself- so therefore he adds nothing here in my eyes whatsoever
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 10:54:32 AM permalink
I don't care how much Gordon knows about football. That's silly. The sharpest guys I know bet on sports they've never seen.

His clients bet sizes aren't all that relevant. When RAS releases a pick, the lines move within seconds because they are known to be sharp picks.

Dan claims that a $100 bettor would be well served buy paying $900 a year for his picks. Come on.

If that is true, why didn't you just bankroll his picks and split the money? You can bet tens of thousands, and sometimes more per game on the nfl.


I realized that I should stipulate that it is logically possible for a tout to be legit, but extremely unlikely and did so. This position is held by almost everybody who understands the issue and is not involved with touts.

Here is the 2+2 thread, with many people who are smarter than I am weighing in on the matter. I'm quoting a guy called propplayer.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/buying-picks-tout-discussion-thread-should-i-purchase-tips-discussed-1312358/

"Just my opinion here: generally speaking it is mostly scammers selling tips (picks). Many posting tips (picks) also have no more chance of flipping a coin heads than anyone else. However there are exceptions to this; I learned a lot about football (soccer) totals from a guy who never placed bets in his life and was initially giving out the info for free (not selling it).

I suggest reading the update I made to the FAQ:

Why do lines move?
What are off-market prices? (What are shaded lines?)
Is Beating the Pinnacle Price Profitable?
What is a No-Vig win probability/price/odds (how can I remove vig?)
Whatís the Fair Price for Buying a Half Point?
What is Steam?
What is a Limit Collar? (What are Personal Limits?)
What are Dual Lines?

Understand betting is similar to a market of supply and demand. The higher your bankroll is the less +EV bets there are for your optimal bet size hanging around. When they do pop up there is a competition for them. So, if you're talented at sports betting it isn't long before you're placing max bets. Do you want to A) sharpen the market faster on the exact opportunities you are attacking by drawing attention to these spots, B) help others increase their bankroll to the point they're now competing with you up where there are far less spots? It doesn't make too much sense.

Because it doesn't make sense you have a combination of 1) running good for short period, 2) actual talent that will soon realize it is not worth it to sell picks, 3) those in it for the attention 4) fakers 5) scammers.

Even if there was such a thing as a great tipster in time all you would get is either 1) they quit and move on. 2) You have to use ninja speed to bet their tips (picks) before the odds move.

Why pay for tips (picks) when you can find the same cycle for free on forums, twitter and blogs (just tracking to see who to follow)? I think for the most part you have just as much chance of finding a good free tipster than you do a paid one. In fact might even have a better chance at a good free one, though I'm sure a few others might disagree.

There's a lot more than can be added here about padded records, not widely available odds and much more. But this is a good start regarding this topic."


Here is a quote from Dan Gordon's facebook page.

Dan Gordon Sports Picks is now 11-6 (64.7%) on NFL point-spread selections in the 2014 season. There is still time to save YOUR NFL season. Read more at dangordonsportpicks.net and sign up!!
NBA selections just two weeks away!! Went 70-48 (59.3%) in NBA selections in the 2013-14 season. You can ask me more about my NBA service at danlgordon@aol.com
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https://www.facebook.com/Dan-Gordon-Sport-Picks-346517802192931/

Sounds like a run of the mill tout to me.

Maybe I'm wrong. But my honest advice to any new gambler would be to steer clear of that guy. I wouldn't promote him on my site either.

I agree that someone is owed an apology, but it ain't that guy.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 11:01:19 AM permalink
Pure supposition. You are calling him a fraud because frauds exist. That is not evidence that he is a fraud. Using that logic, this site is a fraud and every author of every gaming book is a fraud.

Fact is, 98% (give or take) of gaming book authors and gaming sites are frauds. But, before calling someone a fraud, you need actual evidence.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 24th, 2016 at 11:14:31 AM permalink
Quote: QFIT

He does bet them. But, he makes small bets that won't change the line..

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 11:23:27 AM permalink
I don't think 98% of gaming books and sites are frauds. However, it is more like 99.92% of touts are frauds. Or, if that is too strong a word, they sell a bad product.

OK. He claims that a $100 bettor should buy his picks for $900.

That means, obviously, he is suggesting that he could start out in an 0-9 hole every season and still be significantly +ev.

If someone like TomG will agree that this is the kind of approach that will yield such phenomenal results, I'll stand corrected:

Thus, in summary, we have a Bronco team with a much improved defense and an offense certainly not much worse than their record 2013 one. On the other side, we have a Colt offense that seems worse (with its offensive line problems) than 2013 and a defense about as weak as last yearís version.

Thus, on the spread, GIVING the Colts four or 4 ½ MORE points of value than they had in 2013 seems ridiculous. Since I donít wager on favorites in the first four weeks of an NFL season (and most seldom like to give over -3 in ANY regular season game), I feel that the value here is with the money line. With my power rating on this game being Broncos -13 ½ (which translates to -7.00 on the money line), they have all the value here. Laying -3.88 or less gives the Broncos over a 10% value edge in this game (if one could lay the best available money line of -3.10, this value edge increases to 15.8%).

http://www.dangordonsportpicks.net/what-my-clients-receive.html

"I don't bet on favorites in the first four weeks of the NFL season" seems like absolute nonsense to me. But someone can show otherwise.

15.8% edge?

"The inherent logic of an earner like Lion Man and the long-term bottom line of someone like him encourage me to be most happy to bet an underdog that is the better team, ESPECIALLY IN A GAME OF GREAT SIGNIFICANCE TO THEM!!"

Oh please.

Everything he says sounds like the guys on pregame, at best.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 11:42:39 AM permalink
Sorry, but you really do not understand the service. That is, you don't know what you are talking about and you are making things up to fill in the gaps.

1. Where did you get $100 from? His bets are usually $400-$600. This is not enough to change the line.
2. He is excellent at making season wagers, which pay off at better odds.
3. He makes occasional prop bets that also pay off at better odds.
4. Where did he claim "phenomenal results"?

You seem to be bending over backwards trying to suggest he's selling a bad product when you know nothing about him. Seriously, is this the kind of basis used for advice here?

BTW, I know two highly respected BJ authors that swear by his picks. (Dan has also authored a BJ book under a pen name.)
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
RonC
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April 24th, 2016 at 12:08:17 PM permalink
Quote: QFIT

KJ made scores of posts on this site falsely accusing four members of BJTF of fraud. He accused me, here, of purposely allowing misleading posts to somehow make money off of new players.



He accused you of doing something on your board that he felt was wrong. The funny thing is that I don't see a whole lot of defense here of your actions on those boards by anyone but you; only that you are "well respected"..."respect" is earned and no one here has to respect you; you earn respect (or don't earn it) each and every place you go.

Quote: QFIT

Again, why would I contribute to a site which keeps restarting these absurd accusations? And now claims that I make money from a sports fraud?



You succeeded in getting one of the best contributors here suspended when it seems no one but you and the one that really counts here seems to see anything wrong with his posts here. Since his demise, you've been offered to opportunity to contribute but you, at my last check, have given the board nothing of any substance from your vast knowledge of blackjack. You just come here to defend yourself from whatever you feel you need to defend against. Why not start contributing other stuff and see if attitudes change over time?

Quote: QFIT

An apology to Dan Gordon is in order and an honest site would remove all of this.



So now you want to control the content of this board, too. I think that is a bit over-reaching.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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April 24th, 2016 at 12:24:48 PM permalink
You only contribute to defend yourself , it's beyond obvious.
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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April 24th, 2016 at 12:26:23 PM permalink
"Letís use dollar amounts to show what I mean. Letís say I charge $600 for an NFL season. Letís say my customer does well that year, going 58-42 ( a respectable 58% win rate) on my picks. To keep things simple, letís also say that all of my customerís bets are the same. This would mean that the customer ended up 11.8 bets ahead after paying the 11-to-10 odds the sports books require. If my customer was betting $100 a game, heíd end up making $1180 minus the $600 for my fee.

Over the course of the season, I would have to end up more than six bets ahead just to cover what this person paid me. Over 100 bets, I would have to win almost 56 percent (56-44) before a person betting $100 per game saw any profit. As for a bettor who can only afford to bet $50 a game, he is betting far too little to be paying me for advice."

In this instance he says he might charge $600. Elsewhere it's $900 so my bad on that I guess.

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/nfltouts.htm

Obviously, $100 bettors should not be paying for touts unless it is all just recreational and they don't mind losing.

I'd like to see what forum members who are knowledgeable about sports betting have to say about the picks and write ups that this guy posts on his own site.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 12:48:54 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

You succeeded in getting one of the best contributors here suspended when it seems no one but you and the one that really counts here seems to see anything wrong with his posts here. Since his demise, you've been offered to opportunity to contribute but you, at my last check, have given the board nothing of any substance from your vast knowledge of blackjack. You just come here to defend yourself from whatever you feel you need to defend against. Why not start contributing other stuff and see if attitudes change over time?


When will anyone take responsibility for their own actions? I succeeded in NOTHING as I made no such attempt. HE succeeded in getting himself nuked. And, it's the fourth forum where he has had problems. As for contributing, I contribute where I'm wanted. If a small group of people stop restarting these attacks, I'll consider it then.

Quote: RonC

So now you want to control the content of this board, too. I think that is a bit over-reaching.


Where did I demand any such CONTROL? Why do people keep making things up? I stated my opinion. It is my opinion that Dan deserves an apology from someone that has attacked him again and again without any evidence. Frankly, the board deserves an apology for misleading info.

Look, the last few years Dan has called my and offered a referral fee if I refer people. I have never done that because I don't do things like that. In fact, the Blackjack Weather Center I posted about here could be considered an ad for CBJN. CBJN offered me a fee for anyone I referred, three times. I said don't worry about it and don't make a cent off of it. Know who owns CBJN? The owner of this site. So, not only was it a contribution of info (ongoing as I update it monthly) but a contribution to the site's income. I was attacked twice here for making that contribution. One is not tempted to feed people that bite one's hands.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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April 24th, 2016 at 12:59:11 PM permalink
It just want stop.
It's like a new Bac System.....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
RonC
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April 24th, 2016 at 1:12:25 PM permalink
Quote: QFIT

An apology to Dan Gordon is in order and an honest site would remove all of this.



This is your comment--you are saying that this board is not honest unless it removes these posts.

Is that not trying to control what remains posted here as opposed to making an argument for your case?

As to Kewlj's "problems" with four other boards, who freaking cares? You...and that is about it.

You won't even try here just because some don't like you so far...it appears you have no interest in contributing here because we go days without anything said about this whole deal and you still don't post.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 1:23:09 PM permalink
1. An honest site would not allow evidence-free slander. There has to be an actual reason to believe a business is fraudulent before making such a claim. That is my opinion. Funny, when KJ repeatedly accuses four people of being frauds based on only his imagination, that's an opinion. When I state an opinion, I'm trying to control the board. It is KJ that tried to control BJTF for, now, seven months.

2. "Days" is obviously not a test. Frankly, my experiences in this thread leave a terrible taste in my mouth., Constant personal attacks without evidence. I contributed and was attacked. There is no reason for me to contribute again. I'm simply not that stupid. When a significant period of time goes by without seeing these kinds of personal attacks; I'll reconsider. Until then, there just is no reason for me to contribute given the strong evidence that I'll just be attacked again. In fact, I don't have to do or say anything to be attacked. You just restarted the attacks here out of the blue. Demanding that someone contribute to a forum is ridiculous. Basically, by saying that the attacks might end if I contribute is like threatening me if I don't contribute. You can't threaten people into making contributions.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
RonC
RonC
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April 24th, 2016 at 1:42:43 PM permalink
Quote: QFIT

2. "Days" is obviously not a test. Frankly, my experiences in this thread leave a terrible taste in my mouth., Constant personal attacks without evidence. I contributed and was attacked. There is no reason for me to contribute again. I'm simply not that stupid. When a significant period of time goes by without seeing these kinds of personal attacks; I'll reconsider. Until then, there just is no reason for me to contribute given the strong evidence that I'll just be attacked again. In fact, I don't have to do or say anything to be attacked. You just restarted the attacks here out of the blue. Demanding that someone contribute to a forum is ridiculous. Basically, by saying that the attacks might end if I contribute is like threatening me if I don't contribute. You can't threaten people into making contributions.



This is all I said:

"The outcome of the QFIT/Kewlj issue is still a huge negative for the forum. We've lost Kewlj's input on both gambling and other topics and gotten absolutely nothing in return. The more posters like Kewlj that go down the tubes, the less interesting this forum becomes. It may be 100% true that the outcome was correct based on the issue between the two gentleman but it still has had a negative impact on the board. QFIT has only shown up here to defend himself. No other contributions in quite a while."

I did not slander you or attack you, I merely said that we lost a valuable poster and that you have not had anything to contribute besides in this thread.

Sorry, QFIT, I happen to miss Kewlj's contributions. I think we lose something when a quality poster is nuked, even if the nuke is deserved. In this case, i still disagree with it.
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 1:42:54 PM permalink
I will contribute one bit of advice here. We know that the vast, vast majority of advertised systems for beating casinos, the track, sports, anything involving gaming, are pure nonsense. But, I will tell you one thing about Grosjeanís tome that some people miss. The most important lesson you can gain from reading this book is not about any one of the particular studies. It is what the book as a whole teaches. That, with enough thought, you can find an opportunity to beat just about anything.

Yes, we must be skeptical of any new concept. But, unless itís just another goofy progression, we must not be overly dismissive. It is a mistake to assume that CSMs, or Roulette, or some new carny game with horrid odds canít be beaten in some manner, under some circumstances. And, itís a mistake to assume that everyone in the field is a fraud because most people are frauds. There is more to AP than grinding HiLo or VP machines.

ďThere are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.Ē
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8)
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 24th, 2016 at 3:12:44 PM permalink
Quote: QFIT

1. An honest site would not allow evidence-free slander.


Quote: QFIT

Fact is, 98% (give or take) of gaming book authors and gaming sites are frauds. But, before calling someone a fraud, you need actual evidence.


An honest adult would not permit themselves to post evidence-free slander either, and the hypocrisy in your statements should not be lost on anyone. This itself is a gaming site, and at least four of the forum members here are either gaming book authors or owners of (other) gaming sites, including myself. One might read your post as proffer that at least three of them are frauds.

Unless you believe that virtually every business owner here is a charlatan, you should apologize. You should also give yourself a timeout from this forum so you can cool down and not subject everyone here to your own evidence-free slander.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 3:23:58 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

An honest adult would not permit themselves to post evidence-free slander either, and the hypocrisy in your statements should not be lost on anyone. This itself is a gaming site, and at least four of the forum members here are either gaming book authors or owners of (other) gaming sites, including myself. One might read your post as proffer that at least three of them are frauds.

Unless you believe that virtually every business owner here is a charlatan, you should apologize. You should also give yourself a timeout from this forum so you can cool down and not subject everyone here to your own evidence-free slander.



That's a ludicrous interpretation of what I said. I have two books on Blackjack and five sites. I contributed 100 pages to Schlesinger's book (for free). According to your logic, I called myself a fraud several times over.

I accused zero of you or this site fraudulent. Do you deny that the vast majority of sites and books are frauds? Browse through the thousands of books on Amazon on beating lotteries, Keno, every game with progressions, etc. The most popular books are by John Patrick and the like. The vast majority of sites on gaming sell progression nonsense. I obviously was not talking about this site. It was someone else that posted, sans evidence, several times, that Dan was a fraud to try to prove that I know a fraud. It was KJ that accused four people of frauds with zero evidence.

And I am perfectly cool. It is KJ that posted a few days ago that he will celebrate on the day that I die, and a lot of nonsense claiming I don't bathe, etc.

This really is beyond ridiculous. As I have said before, stop putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my brain that never existed. That seems to be a common habit here.

Why would anyone want to contribute to a site when people constantly claim he believes and says things totally alien to him?
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 24th, 2016 at 3:36:34 PM permalink
Quote: QFIT

That's a ludicrous interpretation of what I said. ... I obviously was not talking about this site.

That wasn't obvious at all. Rather than having to reject a plain-language interpretation of what you said, you should be more precise in your language in the future. I don't know what's in your head, all I know is what you write. What you wrote was that 98% of gaming authors and site owners are frauds. If you don't want such a statement to be ludicrously misinterpreted, don't make such ludicrous statements in the first place.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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April 24th, 2016 at 3:41:37 PM permalink
Qfit..... Do you realize you contribute to absolutely zero but to the suspension list discussion.... This amazes me- add something worthwhile instead of coming here and complaining .... Stick that in your pipe and smoke it for a minute .
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
QFIT
QFIT
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April 24th, 2016 at 3:46:52 PM permalink
MathExtremist, I said it because I believe it, precisely. I'm frankly shocked that people here don't believe it. Have you ever looked at YouTube? It's drowning in such frauds. Doesn't mean there aren't a few useful videos. But, most people have no idea how to tell good from bad. If I think someone here is a fraud, I will say who and present my evidence.

Again, do not put words in my mouth and thought in my brain. I accused no one here of fraud.

Wizardofnothing, I have seen you post nothing but churlish insults.
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus

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