ams288
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January 15th, 2018 at 2:51:15 PM permalink
I know there was a thread about this game a while back when it was somewhere in California. I can't find it.

NYNY is testing Face Up PGP.

No commission. All hands push on dealer's Ace High Pai Gow. Dealer sets their cards before the players set theirs.

There is the standard fortune side bet, as well as an Ace-High bet which pays:

40 to 1: dealer and player both have ace high Pai Gow.
15 to 1: dealer has ace high Pai Gow with the joker
5 to 1: dealer has ace high Pai Gow no joker

I just played for a couple hours, it's fun.

They said this was only their 3rd day of having the game and it's been doing well so far. The dealers often have to be reminded to set their cards first because they're obviously not used to doing that.
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terapined
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January 15th, 2018 at 5:42:59 PM permalink
When I was at NYNY last month playing Pai Gow poker, there was talk of NYNY changing the rules to no commission
I really like the rule where the house sets a hand 1st
Now there is no guessing on splitting 2 pairs or keeping them together :-)
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
boymimbo
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January 15th, 2018 at 7:21:01 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

When I was at NYNY last month playing Pai Gow poker, there was talk of NYNY changing the rules to no commission
I really like the rule where the house sets a hand 1st
Now there is no guessing on splitting 2 pairs or keeping them together :-)



It's at Thunder Valley in Roseville, CA (NE of Sacramento). I've played it a few times.

Rule changes:

- No commission.
- Dealer A high is a push.
- Dealer of course sets their hand first.

It's fun to play because in a push hand you can set your lower hand to something stupid that just beats the dealer hand. You can't collude with other players because you're just trying to beat the dealer.

There is an A-high side bet which pays various amounts depending on your hand. A high no joker 5-1, with joker 15-1, dealer and player have A-H 40-1. Also plays with Fortune (normal pay table) + the Progressive side bets ($2 at Thurnder Valley)

Thread is Thread is here.
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ams288
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January 15th, 2018 at 7:55:26 PM permalink
I was playing some PGP here at the Bellagio and the dealer said everyone keeps telling her about the new game at NYNY. Then this French guy sits down and proceeds to tell us all about it. lol
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FinsRule
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:20:07 AM permalink
This game is very interesting and I'd definitely play it if it were still around when I'm there in 5 months.

This seems like definitely one of the harder games to figure out math wise. That's what I'm most interested in actually.

The second thing I'd be interested in is gameplay. Do a lot of people muck their hands, making the game faster? Does the dealer have to wait before everyone is done before starting the payout/push process?
SM777
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January 16th, 2018 at 7:16:18 AM permalink
Great game. Fun play.
boymimbo
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January 16th, 2018 at 9:27:25 AM permalink
The math is based on the House Way of each casino which would dictate what the exact HE is. In the case of TV, the rules around two pair and single pair with a K and A are important. I don't know what those rules are exactly. The s game site here says 1.60% HA.

As for gameplay, people muck their hands when they lose and they don't have a Fortune Hand which makes gameplay faster. People also muck when the dealer has A High and don't have a fortune hand and is not playing the A-High bonus.

People also set their hands faster because they simply have to make a determination of what to beat rather than think about certain plays. It doesn't stop people from slowly revealing their cards or follow whatever silly ritual (I have one too) they do in opening their cards and setting their hands.
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Romes
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January 16th, 2018 at 9:41:41 AM permalink
Might be the next leap in "new" gaming ideas... for the dealer to start playing their hands first. Of course I'm sure that would cause adjustments to rules/payouts to level the HE for the house, but it would give players a fresh way to play a lot of games. I like the idea.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Wizard
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January 16th, 2018 at 10:40:12 AM permalink
Strange, this isn't listed in Gaming's list of games on field trial.

I clicked on the web site of the game owner and got a very stern warning that it was a dangerous site. However, it showed the content for about one second before the warning came up. I managed to get a screenshot, which I am copying and pasting below. I hope the owner doesn't mind and I'm happy to remove it upon request.

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Wizard
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January 16th, 2018 at 10:54:56 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Might be the next leap in "new" gaming ideas... for the dealer to start playing their hands first. Of course I'm sure that would cause adjustments to rules/payouts to level the HE for the house, but it would give players a fresh way to play a lot of games. I like the idea.



That was tried on a poker variant at the Wynn a few years ago. It used an optical reader in the shuffler to tell the dealer how to play without the dealer knowing the cards. I take it the field trial didn't go well because I haven't seen the game since.
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ahiromu
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January 16th, 2018 at 11:14:17 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The math is based on the House Way of each casino which would dictate what the exact HE is. In the case of TV, the rules around two pair and single pair with a K and A are important. I don't know what those rules are exactly. The s game site here says 1.60% HA.



They also say 40 hands per hour at a full table. That sounds generous. Add in the fact that mistakes are very unlikely and I have a hard time seeing this be a better game than regular PGP (for the casinos). That said... More people will just fold rather than watch their hand lose. I don't know.

I do not believe I would like this game as much. You're taking away the skill element.
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jmills
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January 16th, 2018 at 11:38:19 AM permalink
Is there a progressive on this game, and if so, is it that godawful $5 progressive seen on the rest of the strip?
Romes
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January 16th, 2018 at 11:59:12 AM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

...I do not believe I would like this game as much. You're taking away the skill element.

Eh, what was the skill element before? Memorizing basic strategy and playing your hands the same way every time? In this new scenario, you simply just don't have to remember the strategy... just try to beat what you see, and if you can't try to get a push.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Hunterhill
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January 16th, 2018 at 12:14:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That was tried on a poker variant at the Wynn a few years ago. It used an optical reader in the shuffler to tell the dealer how to play without the dealer knowing the cards. I take it the field trial didn't go well because I haven't seen the game since.


I think it was called dealer bluff poker,they had it at thunder valley also,it didn't last long.
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SOOPOO
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January 16th, 2018 at 12:51:14 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Eh, what was the skill element before? Memorizing basic strategy and playing your hands the same way every time? In this new scenario, you simply just don't have to remember the strategy... just try to beat what you see, and if you can't try to get a push.



Since often many more than just your 7 cards are known to you there are changes to basic strategy that occur ever so often. The simplest being if you know no aces remain you re evaluate the strength of a KQ low hand, as an example. So 6's and 5's with a KQ I'd usually split, but if I know the dealer can't have an ace I'll put the KQ up.
Not common, but to me it's added fun when going against a house way gives added EV, even if minimal.
Deucekies
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January 16th, 2018 at 1:05:21 PM permalink
Is this the same game that was in California, or is it a similar product from a different vendor? I thought the one in California was called "Seven Up Pai Gow".
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boymimbo
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January 16th, 2018 at 1:13:32 PM permalink
This is the same game as in Thunder Valley and is called "face Up Pai Gow". I can only speak to the one in Thunder Valley. They operate four of these tables there (and 3 - 4 regular PGP pokers). Both games are exactly the same and owned by SHFL.

It's an approved game in Nevada as Face Up Pai Gow: Nevada Gaming official rules
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Romes
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:07:21 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Since often many more than just your 7 cards are known to you there are changes to basic strategy that occur ever so often. The simplest being if you know no aces remain you re evaluate the strength of a KQ low hand, as an example. So 6's and 5's with a KQ I'd usually split, but if I know the dealer can't have an ace I'll put the KQ up.
Not common, but to me it's added fun when going against a house way gives added EV, even if minimal.

But aren't you getting BETTER information with knowing the dealers hand (plus all the other cards since they're all face up)? For example, say the dealer still had their hand down and you saw all other hands on the table face up. You'd think, great, with all this info I can skillfully play better. Well, turn the dealers hand up, and that's the most info/skill you could play with?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Paradigm
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:11:17 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I think it was called dealer bluff poker,they had it at thunder valley also,it didn't last long.


Their website still has Dealer Bluff as of today: Thunder Valley Table Games (see pull down menu)...I would guess it has been at TV for 3+ years now.
ahiromu
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:16:10 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Eh, what was the skill element before? Memorizing basic strategy and playing your hands the same way every time? In this new scenario, you simply just don't have to remember the strategy... just try to beat what you see, and if you can't try to get a push.



The skill element was there to make me feel superior to people who'd never put a queen on top (this is just an example). It's not exactly the same as dropping the game to a 3CP-level of mindlessness, but it's definitely a dumbing down of the game. Please don't get me wrong, I never played PGP for the "skill" factor, but this game drops the whole strategy element and that, by itself, would make me choose regular PGP every time.
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Hunterhill
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:29:29 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Their website still has Dealer Bluff as of today: Thunder Valley Table Games (see pull down menu)...I would guess it has been at TV for 3+ years now.


I thought it was gone,my mistake.
I believe it was 2008 or 2009 when I first saw it.
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SOOPOO
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January 16th, 2018 at 2:43:26 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

But aren't you getting BETTER information with knowing the dealers hand (plus all the other cards since they're all face up)? For example, say the dealer still had their hand down and you saw all other hands on the table face up. You'd think, great, with all this info I can skillfully play better. Well, turn the dealers hand up, and that's the most info/skill you could play with?



Of course it's better info. At the cost of pushing when dealer has ace high Pai gow. The new game is like baccarat, absolutely zero skill. I prefer the regular game where I have at least a minimum of thinking to do. You can't possibly think you have an advantage with the new game? It is just a much more clearly defined house edge as the player is reduced to nothing more than a card turner-over.
boymimbo
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January 16th, 2018 at 5:23:00 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Of course it's better info. At the cost of pushing when dealer has ace high Pai gow. The new game is like baccarat, absolutely zero skill. I prefer the regular game where I have at least a minimum of thinking to do. You can't possibly think you have an advantage with the new game? It is just a much more clearly defined house edge as the player is reduced to nothing more than a card turner-over.



True, but once you have your house way memorized you are not going to turn from that really.

My house way is split two pair with a K when pairs add up to 9 or less, with an A when pairs add up to 17 or less, follow the exception rule for straights and flushes (play a high pair with an Ace rather than a straight or flush). It's the same.

Now you can vary your technique based on a different house way and collusion. That to me is when the "skill" comes in and makes regular PGP fun to play.

I think Face-up is a great way to bring new players into the game as well because they don't have to think about strategy but learn the strategy as they play.
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FinsRule
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January 16th, 2018 at 5:53:19 PM permalink
I think I'd rather play a game when the dealer getting a K high pai gow is an automatic loss, and you can see how the dealer sets their hand. Then you offer a 20-1 K high pai gow insurance bet.

Should I get a patent?

EDIT - 4% house edge is too high. Maybe Q high pai gow is an automatic loss, and there's a 5% commission, and you can see how dealer sets their hand.
Romes
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January 17th, 2018 at 8:24:58 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Of course it's better info. At the cost of pushing when dealer has ace high Pai gow. The new game is like baccarat, absolutely zero skill. I prefer the regular game where I have at least a minimum of thinking to do. You can't possibly think you have an advantage with the new game? It is just a much more clearly defined house edge as the player is reduced to nothing more than a card turner-over.

Didn't they say above that the HE was only like 1.4% or something? Isn't this along a better reason to play over the 2.7% HE of regular pai gow poker? If I ever play Pai Gow Poker, I do it for cheap, for the drinks, and to appease the other friends I'm with. I'm on auto pilot, making the right play most of the time and simply asking the dealer the rest of the time... doesn't seem to be much skill involved in the game either way, so I'd rather play the lower house edge.

If you want a skill game where you can feel better over your table mates and think, just play blackjack? They'll make you feel very skillful lol.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
SOOPOO
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January 17th, 2018 at 11:34:09 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Didn't they say above that the HE was only like 1.4% or something? Isn't this along a better reason to play over the 2.7% HE of regular pai gow poker? If I ever play Pai Gow Poker, I do it for cheap, for the drinks, and to appease the other friends I'm with. I'm on auto pilot, making the right play most of the time and simply asking the dealer the rest of the time... doesn't seem to be much skill involved in the game either way, so I'd rather play the lower house edge.

If you want a skill game where you can feel better over your table mates and think, just play blackjack? They'll make you feel very skillful lol.



I'm not an AP, I play for fun. Comps sometimes add to the fun. And over the course of my playing time, dealer errors have moved the EV needle substantially closer to even from the 2.7% you list. Not frequently, but I've played it at a positive EV occasionally. I used to play BJ, and was a fake AP, meaning I did count cards and altered my bets, but not even close to being funded appropriately. I now find BJ to be about as boring a casino game as there is. But to each his own.
Romes
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January 17th, 2018 at 2:03:04 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I'm not an AP, I play for fun. Comps sometimes add to the fun. And over the course of my playing time, dealer errors have moved the EV needle substantially closer to even from the 2.7% you list. Not frequently, but I've played it at a positive EV occasionally. I used to play BJ, and was a fake AP, meaning I did count cards and altered my bets, but not even close to being funded appropriately. I now find BJ to be about as boring a casino game as there is. But to each his own.

So wouldn't the dealer be setting their hand the EXACT same way (maybe other than an ace high adjustment)? So wouldn't this also be applicable to the same dealer mistakes, and starting only at like 1.4% instead of 2.7%? I do agree though, at the end of the day it's whatever you're specifically into as far as -EV games.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
FCBLComish
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January 17th, 2018 at 2:10:40 PM permalink
No field trial required. The game is already approved. It has been at Sunset Station since 1/2/18. By the way, the $1 progressive is at $316,000 right now....
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Wizard
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January 17th, 2018 at 8:24:28 PM permalink
I will write up a page soon but just did a simulation on Face Up Pai Gow Poker. For the base game I get a house edge of 1.81%. For the side bet I get a house edge of 9.38%.

Here is are details on the main bet:

dealer ace high pai gow= 9.36%
wins= 24.79%
losses= 26.59%
pushes= 39.26%


Side bet:

Both ace high pai gow= 0.87%
Dealer ace high pai gow with joker= 0.41%
Dealer ace high pai gow without joker= 8.08%
Loss 90.64%
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
boymimbo
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January 18th, 2018 at 12:04:02 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I will write up a page soon but just did a simulation on Face Up Pai Gow Poker. For the base game I get a house edge of 1.81%. For the side bet I get a house edge of 9.38%.

Here is are details on the main bet:

dealer ace high pai gow= 9.36%
wins= 24.79%
losses= 26.59%
pushes= 39.26%


Side bet:

Both ace high pai gow= 0.87%
Dealer ace high pai gow with joker= 0.41%
Dealer ace high pai gow without joker= 8.08%
Loss 90.64%



The site says it's 1.60%. I'm going to head over to Thunder Valley tomorrow or Saturday and ask them about their house way which may help you run your simulation a bit better. Mind you the NYNY house way might be different and I would assume you would follow the house way that you have published at WoO for MGM Grand.
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ams288
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January 18th, 2018 at 8:35:36 AM permalink
Never underestimate the stupidity of some gamblers.

The 2nd time I played this, there was one hand where the dealer had a King high pai gow with QJ on top.

Of course, we all saw this before we set our hands.

The lady next to me played a pair of aces on the bottom with J-8 on top and pushed the hand. I asked why she didn't split her aces to win the hand, and she got kinda pissy and said "I don't play that way."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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boymimbo
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January 18th, 2018 at 9:08:45 AM permalink
The splitting of a single high pair is a bonus in this game (not regular PGP), but alot of people who don't really understand the concept don't do it right.

Example: dealer has a Q h Pai Gow and you have a pair of Kings with low cards behind.

- Some people just won't fathom the idea of splitting and will take the push (seen this)
- Some people will split the pair but will forget that the two card hand < five card hand. Example: Dealar Q high Pai Gow. Player: K-K-J-T-5-3-2. Player sets K-J / K-T-5-3-2, fouls the hand and loses (seen this, harsh). The hand has to be K-T / K-J-5-3-2.

In fact in this game I always set my front hand at "just enough to beat the dealer" rather than the best possible hand just to emphasize the rules in my own head that the goal is to win. So for example if the dealer is playing a Q-T in the front, I might put a Q-J in the front even if I have a K or A I could put up there.
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Romes
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January 18th, 2018 at 9:17:41 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

Never underestimate the stupidity of some gamblers.

The 2nd time I played this, there was one hand where the dealer had a King high pai gow with QJ on top.

Of course, we all saw this before we set our hands.

The lady next to me played a pair of aces on the bottom with J-8 on top and pushed the hand. I asked why she didn't split her aces to win the hand, and she got kinda pissy and said "I don't play that way." ...

lol... I have too many thoughts/remarks. Just wow.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
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January 18th, 2018 at 12:37:36 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The site says it's 1.60%. I'm going to head over to Thunder Valley tomorrow or Saturday and ask them about their house way which may help you run your simulation a bit better. Mind you the NYNY house way might be different and I would assume you would follow the house way that you have published at WoO for MGM Grand.



I think its unlikely that a difference in the house way would lower the house edge by 0.2%, unless they are playing 2 pair very stupidly.
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boymimbo
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January 18th, 2018 at 1:17:31 PM permalink
Kind of agree.

Quote: WoO, Foxwoods House Ways


The Simple Dealer-Banker Strategy has a house edge of 2.6892% when the dealer is banking. For comparison, the House Way has a house edge of 2.7212%, and optimal strategy has a house edge of 2.5122%.



So you can improve your house edge by .2% playing optimally vs houseway/houseway. The Wizard's calculation would be more accurate if he used the house way as determined by the casino. It can only help.
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Wizard
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January 18th, 2018 at 2:44:10 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The site says it's 1.60%. I'm going to head over to Thunder Valley tomorrow or Saturday and ask them about their house way which may help you run your simulation a bit better. Mind you the NYNY house way might be different and I would assume you would follow the house way that you have published at WoO for MGM Grand.



Yeah, it may depend a little on the house way. I used the one from the Trump Plaza.
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January 18th, 2018 at 2:45:54 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

So you can improve your house edge by .2% playing optimally vs houseway/houseway. The Wizard's calculation would be more accurate if he used the house way as determined by the casino. It can only help.



My figure assumes the player plays whatever way will result in the best outcome against the exposed dealer hand, of course.
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FCBLComish
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January 18th, 2018 at 3:55:24 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

Never underestimate the stupidity of some gamblers.



Wasn't it Einstein who said that the 2 most prevalent elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity?
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January 18th, 2018 at 5:51:50 PM permalink
The casino doesn't care about intelligent play they just want FAST play so the house edge can grind exceeding small. Face up and no commission stuff always means TIME savings for the casino.
No need to track commissions, no need to prove them for the camera.,, saves the casino money.
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January 18th, 2018 at 6:08:59 PM permalink
Okay, I have a first draft done on my new page on Face Up Pai Gow Poker. Please click the link and have a look. As always, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections. Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FinsRule
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January 18th, 2018 at 6:35:01 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, I have a first draft done on my new page on Face Up Pai Gow Poker. Please click the link and have a look. As always, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections. Thank you.



My question is how the house edge is calculated. I know you said earlier you ran a simulation. Does it actually simulate every single possible hand?

It seems like the bonus bet calculation is simply the odds of each player individually getting an A high pai gow multiplied together. This may be anecdotal, but it seems like that one person having a pai gow increases the odds of another person having a pai gow. Obviously this won't overcome the high house edge, but maybe it puts a dent in it?
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January 18th, 2018 at 6:57:16 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

My question is how the house edge is calculated. I know you said earlier you ran a simulation. Does it actually simulate every single possible hand?



Thanks for asking. I just added this remark to the page, "The analysis above is the result of a simulation of over 900 million pairs of random hands. A Fisher-Yates shuffle was done between rounds, which used a Mersenne Twister random number generator. "

Quote:

It seems like the bonus bet calculation is simply the odds of each player individually getting an A high pai gow multiplied together. This may be anecdotal, but it seems like that one person having a pai gow increases the odds of another person having a pai gow. Obviously this won't overcome the high house edge, but maybe it puts a dent in it?



Actually, if one hand is an ace-high pai gow, it slightly decreased the chances another hand will be. I assume this is because there is one ace removed from the deck. I haven't actually played the game yet, but I don't think the player is allowed to make the side bet after seeing the dealer's hand.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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January 19th, 2018 at 12:40:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I haven't actually played the game yet, but I don't think the player is allowed to make the side bet after seeing the dealer's hand.



No Wiz, all side bets are made before seeing the dealer's hand. Nice try though :)
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boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 19th, 2018 at 2:29:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My figure assumes the player plays whatever way will result in the best outcome against the exposed dealer hand, of course.



I think you'd want to use the NYNY house way which would mimic MGM's I am guessing.
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ams288
ams288
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January 19th, 2018 at 3:26:25 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I think you'd want to use the NYNY house way which would mimic MGM's I am guessing.



Yes. MGM and NYNY have the same house way.

They keep two pairs of sixes and under together no matter what. That is their weirdest rule, but I kind of like it. Sometimes you get two little pairs together on the bottom with like a 9,6 on top.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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January 19th, 2018 at 3:34:01 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I think you'd want to use the NYNY house way which would mimic MGM's I am guessing.



If I had it and had the inclination to modify hundreds of lines of code, I might want.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 19th, 2018 at 4:21:30 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If I had it and had the inclination to modify hundreds of lines of code, I might want.



Well you have the house way posted at WoO for MGM.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
bitcoin
bitcoin
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January 30th, 2018 at 1:14:58 PM permalink
Yes there is a progressive bet on the game. It works just like regular paigow. I love this game, you get to see the cards first and there is no 5% commission.
bitcoin
bitcoin
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January 30th, 2018 at 1:19:11 PM permalink
yes there is a progressive on the game. It's $2 for the progressive at thunder valley, and it's $1 progressive at GSR in Reno. Those are the two casinos that i play.
PGBuster
PGBuster
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February 1st, 2018 at 8:05:45 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

Never underestimate the stupidity of some gamblers.

Well, that's for sure. We just installed this at the casino I work at in MN. Had a player who had 6655 and some other combination of three cards. I turned over kings and tens. Obviously, you split those. He also decided to split his two pair.
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