Wizard
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Wizard
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MrCasinoGames
May 5th, 2019 at 4:20:15 PM permalink
Let me start by saying that Intertops is one of the largest Internet casinos to take US players and generally have a very good reputation for good customer service and fast payouts. That said, I don't want to this post to come off that I'm an Intertops hater, but more as a warning about falling into a trap that I fell in regarding bonus rules. I also plan to write a full article on this topic and am fishing for comments to decide what angle I should take. I will be honest in this thread and try to not hold anything back.

That said, Intertops offers bonuses on slots once or twice a week that despite huge play-through requirements and a $10 maximum bet, can be quite lucrative. They have a lot of RTG slots to choose from, which are generally volatile to begin with, but are kind enough to give a volatility rating on each one. By choosing high variance games, like Paydirt, and betting the maximum, I strongly believe an advantage could be had by betting the maximum every spin over as few pay-lines as possible (four lines at $2.50 each) with a shoot for the moon strategy or go bust trying. It is icing on the cake of the random bonus on a game is high.

I made a deposit of about $1,000 in early 2018 and played through lots of bonuses. In the typical bonus I would deposit $100 or $200, which would get a 100% match, sometimes more. Usually I busted out, but sometimes reached my play-through requirement with a small four-figure profit. After doing this for about a year, my balance was about $2,500. Then I heard through the grapevine that they were getting tough on bonus abusers and got worried. I still played a few more bonuses, which didn't go well. When my balance got to $2,000 I decided to cut and run.

After putting in a withdrawal I got the following Email a couple days later:

Quote: Intertops


Dear Michael,

Thank you for choosing Intertops.

This e-mail is to advise you that your pending withdrawal via Bitcoin for US$1998 has been declined as in checking your account the terms and conditions were not adhered to.

Casino Terms & Conditions

Section 2: Bonus Promotions & Slot Tournaments

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

As a result of the above US$1137.77 has been deducted from your account as you are in violation of our terms and conditions (Coupons "MOTHER2018" redeemed on May 12, 2018 and "SPARKLINGWIN" redeemed on May 25, 2018 were both claimed on US$100.00 transfer to the casino which were not actual deposits).

Should you require any further information or assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Yours Sincerely,

Jade

Intertops Financial Services



Okay, a couple points here.

First, like many Internet casinos, Intertops has what I'll call a "main wallet" as well as wallets for the various ways to gamble within Intertops, specifically the Casino Classic, Casino Red, Sportsbook, and Poker. Whatever you want to play, you have to transfer money from your main wallet to one of the four sub-wallets I just listed. Whenever I finished playing a bonus if I had any money left, I transfered it back to the main wallet. Personally, I always considered it just moving money around within Intertops and not making deposits and withdrawals each time I played. I would like to emphasize that I only once made a deposit to Intertops with outside money.

Second, it was plainly obvious what I was doing. Intertops was blasting me with bonus offers by bonus Email and postal mail on a weekly basis. It would seem by their interpretation of rule 2.3, which they quote, is that you must use new money to play a bonus, which hasn't been played yet before. I circulated the same money back and forth with them for over a year and they had never had an issue. Furthermore, I know of other players who did this on a much larger scale than I did and never had an issue. By tempting me with bonus offers when I was already a proven long-time player with what I'll call "old money" in my account, they were setting me up to fail. Lose gambling and I lose. Win gambling and they throw rule 2.3 in my face and seize my winnings down the road when I ask for it.

The next step I took was to file a dispute with the Casino Reps feature at our sister site, Latest Casino Bonuses. LCB is a great site that strives to resolve disputes between their members and casinos they promote. One of these casinos is Intertops. In my request for some help, I stated the same arguments I'm making here. Intertops came back with the following in a very expedient manner, which I applaud.

Quote: Intertops


Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for your useful input.

Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players. Transferring chips (and winnings) in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits. A thorough auditing takes place as soon as a real payout is requested and then we apply our rules. We send frequent bonus offers, as players are able to make frequent new deposits. Many players take advantage of these bonus offers by making frequent deposits many of them even a few times a day.
We kindly ask you to accept our decision, which applies to our rules.

If you have any further question, please contact our casino support team at casino@intertops.eu, thank you!

Kind regards,

Your Intertops Affiliate Team



So there you have Intertop's side. I concede they make a valid point.

The big picture here is casino and bonus rules are getting so long and complicated that it is like navigating a minefield for a player to do a bonus and not violate any rules. Not just Intertops -- but seemingly everybody! Even when a player does carefully obey every rule, many casinos will seize funds anyway and file it under "bonus abuse" and quote the ubiquitous policy that they "reserve all rights" and "decisions of casino management are final."

In closing, let me say that this situation is a bit complicated and I'm not saying that I am completely innocent. I'll even say that Intertops has some good qualities. As long as you don't play any bonuses or are a consistent loser, you'll probably be very happy with them. I tell this story as a general warning about bonus pitfalls in general.

I welcome all comments, pro and con. Again, I plan to write an article on this and am looking for feedback on how I should spin it.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
vegas
vegas
Joined: Apr 27, 2012
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May 5th, 2019 at 4:57:46 PM permalink
I used to play a lot online as there were some really advantage bonus offers. Over the years the rules got more and more slanted in the casinos favor. You are right in that the rules get more and more complicated. The play through is also unreasonable in many places. The end came for me when I took a 100% match up to 500. I deposit the 500 and start with 1000. The play through was 30X on the bonus only. I could live with that and knew I had to play a total of 500 X 30 = 15,000 plus my original 500. The max bet was only 5 dollars per spin. The rule I missed and was not aware of was it had to be cleared in 7 days.

I was enjoying myself and was way ahead thanks to some big hits. I log in on the 8th day and the money is gone....WTH. That is when I found out I had to clear the bonus in 7 days. Chat told me there was nothing they could do as it was in the T&C. I asked how I was supposed to clear 15,500 in just 7 days at max 5 a spin? I had a total of 3,400 in my account that was wiped out. I did not always play even close to the max bet as I was having fun and wanted it to last. I asked for my deposit back....fat chance. That was the end of online gambling for me.


Your problem was completely different I realize but still the rules are made as a casino advantage. Like me your issue was covered in the T&C so you have no recourse. After you initial deposit you offered the casino no incentive as to keep you as a valuable player. They had your money and they knew it. Their only hope was you would lose all your money and send some new dollars. Once you decided to withdraw they pounced.

I think your article should slant how the T&C are complicated and grossly favor the casino. If you are going to deposit understand every rule before you send money. In 2019 online casino gambling is generally not a good investment. I would say if you must play don't take bonuses. Also today there is usually a brick and mortar casino not too far from your home. If you win, you will be paid.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:00:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

...

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.


I can understand how they'd be p1553d if you are only moving money to an offline wallet. But this rule would actually preclude taking your money out of the casino, buying a round of drinks with it, depositing some cash from your own back pocket while taking a bonus and playing some more. Now THAT would be outrageous on their part.
If you are enjoying the game, you're already winning.
Face
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Face 
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:21:02 PM permalink
So I understand...you (for example) put $1,000 "in", but played $100 (for example) at a time. You viewed each hundred as a deposit, whereas they looked at the $1,000 as the deposit?

On the surface and with limited understanding, this sounds more a case of Wild Wild Westitis as opposed to manufactured malfeasance for malfeasancanceses sake. In other words, with no standardized set of rules, the rules are left to interpretation, all of which requires a lawman's level of legal understanding to nail. As a layman, I can understand their view (assuming my above assumption on the incident is correct)

BUT, this obviously isn't a good look, as the grey area is such that one could CLAIM the same ol internet nonsense of taking with no recourse. It also seems foolish as their rules would cause people chasing these bonuses to make many smaller deposits as opposed to one big one, which 1) doesn't protect your bonus, and 2) lessens the amount they as a company "have". Everyone knows once you convert to credits/tickets/chips/cheques/tokens/gift cards, you are tons more likely to spend the entirety of it at that location. And this policy discourages that, as well as slashes at the convenience of it all.

If my understanding of the incident is accurate, I'd say it's worthy of discussion but not pursuit. I give it 2 pitchforks out of 7.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
DogHand
DogHand
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:21:06 PM permalink
WoO,

I'm trying to understand the quoted T&C's.

If you had withdrawn your money after each session, then made a new deposit for each new session, you would have been in compliance?

Dog Hand
GWAE
GWAE
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
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OnceDear
May 5th, 2019 at 5:26:10 PM permalink
I think it sucks but I think seeing the actual Tc would give us a better idea. To me it seems like if you are transferring to their main wallet then you should not be eligible for the bonus and their ruling is valid. Yes it is crap that they only uphold the rule when you lose. I think their system should.be smart enough to not allow a bonus from that money anyways.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
GWAE
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:30:41 PM permalink
Let me add that I was taken by cool Kat casino the same way for 2k. I played and won, did cash out with no problems. Received a card in the mail for deposit bonus. Did the bonus and won a jackpot of 2500. Met the play through and withdrew. Was told that you are not allowed another bonus with redeposited money. So basically if you ever win you cant get another bonus until you have given back all of your winnings.

So even if you pulled the money out a redeposit it in wonder if they would say the same based on those quoted terms
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:43:43 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

they only uphold the rule when you lose. I think their system should.be smart enough to not allow a bonus from that money anyways.



Exactly. If they awarded the bonus on a transfer in from a wallet, then they indeed DID award a bonus. They should honor that or not award it.
If you are enjoying the game, you're already winning.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:50:32 PM permalink
I'm having a real problem with the math/logic of the take-back.

I guess they're saying you won on those 2 bonuses, and saying since the bonus receipt was illegal in each case, they took back ALL the winnings? Of which they included what: the hundred you used to fund those bonuses, as well as the $100 bonus match, and winnings above that?

In those 2 transactions, did they allow you to keep the $100 seed money in both cases?

I take it they didn't return/account for your "illegally" LOST starting money the other times you "incorrectly" funded a sub-wallet from your main wallet? The times you busted out the bonus and base bet, when you would not have gambled, had they not offered the 100% match?

That type of selective accounting is very inequitable, perhaps actionable. They should refund the $100, win or lose, with which you staked EACH gambling session beyond the first bonus from the $1000 br.

But Idk your balances or results other than what you've reported, so perhaps I'm missing something.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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May 5th, 2019 at 5:51:30 PM permalink
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I would say that any money from ANY source put into your main wallet is a deposit, else leave it in the sub-wallet. Its not some internal transfer, it is a deposit if it goes into the main wallet.

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