OnceDear
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OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
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May 5th, 2019 at 6:09:35 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

So even if you pulled the money out a redeposit it in wonder if they would say the same based on those quoted terms



That's sadly typical of how they rip us off. Rule 1. The casino can close your account and or seize your balance whenever the mood takes it, at its absolute discretion.

And they do!
If you are enjoying the game, you're already winning.
vegas
vegas
Joined: Apr 27, 2012
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May 5th, 2019 at 6:12:39 PM permalink
The Wiz made a deposit to a wallet inside Intertops. He sends money from wallet to casino in Intertops leaving the rest in the wallet. Wiz wins at the casino and sends the winning back to the wallet. What he had to do was withdraw the win and there would be no problems. He takes his winning out of Intertops and then he can make a deposit from the remaining wallet money back to the casino...no problem. His problem was he did not withdraw the winnings but sent it back to the wallet and use it to gain another bonus deposit.

If he withdraws aech win to his outside holder he is ok. He did not do that
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
Gialmere
Gialmere
Joined: Nov 26, 2018
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May 5th, 2019 at 6:42:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I tell this story as a general warning about bonus pitfalls in general.


How carefully do you have to tread? The quoted sentence above seems to be the fairest--and in your case safest--angle to use. If anyone else here wrote such an article it would be fine. It's an important warning. You however, as a payed employee of the Wizard sites and whose very name and likeness come with the package, are in a more awkward position. The 2nd and 3rd to last paragraphs of the OP essentially amount to an indictment of the entire online gaming industry, to the point that a schlub like me is thinking of just sticking to brick-and-mortar casinos to avoid all the internet pitfalls. Such a broad-brushed message might not sit well with current ownership. I don't envy your situation.

P.S. This is what happens when you play at a non "Wizard Approved" site.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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Thanks for this post from:
MichaelBluejayIndyJeffrey
May 5th, 2019 at 6:55:28 PM permalink
Thank you for all the comments thus far.

First, I did many bonuses there and didn't keep track of the result of each one. So, I don't even know if they gave me back the original buy in for each one. To be honest, I am surprised they didn't seize my full balance, as I am quite sure that I won on more than two bonuses. I say this at some risk as I put in a withdrawal for the $800+ on Friday that I have left and that is still pending. It would not surprise me if I get audited again and they take that away too.

Second, I think it should be noted that they seem to contract themselves.

Quote: Rule 2.3

If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.



Quote: Response to my complaint

Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players. Transferring chips (and winnings) in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits.



So what does it mean to make a withdrawal? Is it talking about moving money completely out of Intertops or from wallet to wallet? The way I would interpret rule 2.3 is moving money completely out and then new money back in later. You can see in their response to LCB they are interpreting their vague language however benefits them.

The most dreaded rule of all is rule 2.6 below. Emphasis in bold is mine.

Quote: Intertops Rules & Conditions


Section 1: General Casino Rules
1.1 Sportsbook and Casino are operated by Thinkquick Ltd., a company registered by the government of St. Kitts and Nevis.

1.2 The legal betting age is 18 (eighteen).

1.3 Players should consult their local laws, as to whether or not placing a wager online is an illegal activity for the player in the player's jurisdiction.

1.4 Only one account may be opened per customer, per household, per shared computer and shared IP address.

1.5 All casino games are monitored by Intertops at all times. Consequently Intertops has the ability to track and review each hand/roll/slot pull/spin for each player and game offered.

1.6 Intertops shall make every effort to ensure the full protection of its customers. However, certain unforeseen events are beyond the control of Intertops. In the event of a disconnection for any reason whatsoever between the player and the casino, Intertops shall not be held liable for any resulting losses. The balance of a player’s account shall at all times be as recorded on the Intertops Casino games server.

1.7 Intertops Casino will not serve any customers from Costa Rica. Please see the general Intertops rules on the Intertops Sportsbook page for any other restricted countries at Intertops.

Section 2: Bonus Promotions & Slot Tournaments
2.1 Only one bonus per customer, per household, per shared computer and shared IP address at any given time.

2.2 All bonuses awarded to customers shall be considered as betting credits only. Intertops reserves the right to audit all requests for withdrawals, to reclaim any bonuses or winnings that have been accorded prior to a failed audit and to alter or discontinue a promotion at any time for any reason whatsoever, without notice.

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

2.4 Terms and Conditions for Intertops Casino Bonus

Deposit bonuses that are exclusive to our Casino have to be redeemed with the specific Coupon Code in the “Redeem Coupon” section of the cashier in the casino client. This must be done BEFORE the deposit is made. A bonus cannot be credited in retrospect.

Only one bonus per customer can be active at any time. The identity of a customer will be determined on the basis of all or any combination of the following: name, mailing address, e-mail address, IP address, credit card number, computer, and any other forms of identification which may be required.

Standard Wagering Requirements:
The bonus plus the corresponding deposit are credited to the bonus balance and have to be played through 30 times, unless otherwise stated. After completing the wagering requirements, the bonus balance is transferred to the withdrawable balance.

The bonus balance cannot be transferred from the casino.

Example:
In the event that Intertops awards a 100% bonus and the customer deposits $100, the customer must make wagers totaling at least $6,000 in the casino in order to request a withdrawal.

Only the following games count towards fulfilling the wagering requirements and are allowed to be played with an active bonus:

Bingo games
European Slot Poker
Keno
Scratch Cards
Slots
All bonus offers may include specific small print regarding the valid promotion period, bonus amount, play through requirements and allowed games.

Intertops reserves the right to change promotions at any time. In case of dispute, the decision of Intertops is final.

100% Welcome Bonus
The 100% Welcome Bonus can be only credited to accounts of players who have never before deposited into their Red Casino account (RTG).

Players are subject to the standard wagering requirements.

The minimum deposit required to receive the bonus is $20.

Non-Deposit Bonus
Any free money given without requiring a deposit has a maximum payout of 5 times the bonus amount.

This rule is also valid when a customer’s balance is positive at the time of redeeming the non-deposit bonus. After redeeming the bonus, the rule will only be annulled after the customer’s balance has reached $0 again.

Players are subject to double the standard wagering requirements.

Our birthday no-deposit bonus must be redeemed within one month of the birthday, all other no-deposit bonuses within one month of their receipt.

Customers cannot redeem multiple free bonuses/free spins offers consecutively: When a customer uses two or more free bonuses without making a real money deposit in between, management reserves the right to void any bonuses and winnings.

Free Spins
The winnings from Free Spins have to be wagered 60 times before a withdrawal can be made. A maximum of 5 times the initial free spins value in USD can be withdrawn, if no deposit was required - unless otherwise stated.

Free Spins are always limited to one specific game.

Free Spins must be completed at the specified game before any other game can be played.

The Free Spins do not change the terms and conditions of a corresponding deposit bonus.

Customers cannot redeem multiple free bonuses/free spins offers consecutively: When a customer uses two or more free bonuses without making a real money deposit in between, management reserves the right to void any bonuses and winnings.

General Intertops Deposit Bonus offers
If a deposit bonus granted in the Sportsbook is transferred into the casino, the standard wagering requirements as defined in 2.4 apply before a withdrawal can be processed.

2.5 In the event of customers’ deposits qualifying for more than one bonus promotion, the bonus with the highest percentage is valid.

2.6 Bonus programs are intended for recreational bettors only. Professional players or players considered to be abusing the bonus system may have their bonuses, as well as any winnings from wagers based on such bonuses, forfeited and be subject to further sanctions at the sole discretion of the Intertops management. In case of abuse, Intertops reserves the right to discontinue a customer's membership and to prevent the player from accessing any Intertops sites in the future.

2.6.1 Please note that customers who have not made any deposits can only claim free bonus winnings one time.

2.6.2 Customers whose last deposit is older than three months and claim a free bonus, are not entitled to a withdrawal.

2.6.3 Winnings made on linked accounts using same offers will automatically be voided. Intertops reserves the right to remove the bonuses and winnings from the accounts.

2.6.4 Max bet rule for all bonuses = $10.00. Any winnings plus bonus amounts will be voided in accordance with this max bet rule.

2.7 Intertops reserves the right to exclude customers from certain or all bonus promotions without prior notice. No correspondence will be entered into.

2.8 For additional and specific details see the small print of individual bonus promotions.

2.9 Slot Tournaments
The Tournament Buy-In will be deducted from your Real Money account balance. Bonuses cannot be used for Buy-Ins to Slot Tournaments.

The Intertops Bonus Rules apply to the Slot Tournament Buy-Ins. If you use the playable balance originating from a no-deposit bonus to enter a tournament, the maximum payout of 5 times the bonus will be applied to any tournament winnings.

Freeroll Tournaments are only for depositing customers. If a customer has never deposited, then they are ineligible for our Freeroll Tournaments.

Players excluded from redeeming bonuses cannot enter any Slot Tournaments.

If you are disconnected from the system during tournament play, the following rules apply: If you are disconnected during play, the slot will not spin on your behalf. If you reconnect within the tournament time, you can continue playing in the tournament. If you cannot reconnect, your Win Box total will remain static, reflecting the amount at the time of disconnection.

In case a slot tournament is canceled, the Buy-In will be refunded to the player account.

General Intertops Rules
Note: Intertops customers are subject to the general Intertops Sportsbook rules. Please click here for further details.



Source: https://casino.intertops.eu/en/terms

In all fairness, everybody seems to have a rule like 2.6. If I might make a radical suggestion to the industry, I think a fair way to think of bonus players is to congratulate them on their winnings and outsmarting the casino, pay them their money, close their account, and try to learn something from the experience. To seize money from a player who obeyed all rules would be like Jeopardy taking 1.6 million from James Holzhauer because he was being too greedy.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
SkittleCar1
SkittleCar1
Joined: Feb 7, 2014
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Thanks for this post from:
Forager
May 5th, 2019 at 7:17:43 PM permalink
Can you imagine a brick and morter casino seizing your money if you won on free play?

All these rules are just shady.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 5th, 2019 at 7:27:43 PM permalink
You need to use your Wizardly status and tell them to pay you, or else. Then you need to tell them to make it more clear upfront( A pop up notice/warning when people opt in for a bonus) and don't even award a bonus for a wallet transfer. How hard is it to program that into their system? There is only one good reason I can think of that they allow you to take bonuses via a wallet transfer, and that is so they can free roll you. Had you lost would they have refunded your money? I can answer that with a BIG FAT NO. They shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. What would happen if you made transfer to the casino from your wallet, took a bonus, made a few wagers and then you realized didn't do it right and contacted support?

Are you still eligible to play new bonuses using outside deposits? If so, just do that and make back all the money they took plus some.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizard
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Wizard 
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May 5th, 2019 at 7:42:24 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You need to use your Wizardly status and tell them to pay you, or else.



Well, you can see I'm already writing about this here and plan to write an article. As angry as I am over this, it's important to me to be fair and to not act out of anger or revenge. I also need to stress that this is an industry-wide problem, especially for US players who have few choices.

It would be nice if any Internet casino would step us and declare that they respect their own rules and honor their own deals.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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May 5th, 2019 at 7:54:32 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The big picture here is casino and bonus rules are getting so long and complicated that it is like navigating a minefield for a player to do a bonus and not violate any rules.



Heh, reminds me of years ago when I tried to follow a guy's strategy for winning free sweepstakes. The really sketchy contests had really onerous rules, that became a real PITA to follow.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
bobbartop
bobbartop
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
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May 5th, 2019 at 8:32:01 PM permalink
In the beginning, cerca 2000 to 2001, the honest online casinos got their butts kicks. Many were new and didn't understand the business. Savy players took advantage of easy bonuses with easy and vulnerable terms and conditions. I say the honest casinos, because the dishonest ones had their own strategies, and they weren't going to be beat anyway. But this is 2019 now. The legit online casinos have had 20 years to learn how to write terms and conditions, and generally tweek all the holes in their game. They are NOT going to be beat now, not by bonus users at least. That opportunity has come and gone. I'm sure many of us took full advantage twenty years ago. I know I did. Just accept it as good memories, the good old days, because you are not going to win the same way now. Not going to happen. And not worth the headache. Wait till the United States industry is wide open. They'll probably make the same dumb mistakes and have to go through a learning curve just like the foreigners did.
Don't believe anything until it is officially denied.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 5th, 2019 at 8:35:54 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Well, you can see I'm already writing about this here and plan to write an article. As angry as I am over this, it's important to me to be fair and to not act out of anger or revenge. I also need to stress that this is an industry-wide problem, especially for US players who have few choices.

It would be nice if any Internet casino would step us and declare that they respect their own rules and honor their own deals.

Guess who is to blame for the industry acting how it does?

It's the affiliates fault. Without them, most of the online casinos would not exist. You are a rare exception who seems to really care. Most of the affiliates(large and small) don't want to be too hard on their cash cows. Oftentimes, it's only the most egregious acts that get online casinos on a blacklist. Then there are all those casino friendly levels they attach to the online casino's. ALL casinos online should start off on New Play With Caution list and earn their grade.

Affiliates should run their sites more like a good heath department where you have to pass a test before you ever get on an affiliate site. If there is a problem, put them and black list and make them fix the problems or else they stay there. There should be a 3 strikes and you are out rule.

I would love to see how many affiliates are still getting affiliate money from casino they even have on a lower tier list.
*I reserve the right to have an affiliate site that is hypocritical everything I just said.

A side question. When an online casino gets a certified payback percentage (let's assume its a legitimate certification, I'm not sure if that's even possible)

Do they count the bonuses into their overall payback percentage? There is a well known online casino that makes some outrageously high payback claims. If true, IMO, they would be getting crushed by the bonuses and the affiliate programs from the regular players. Lots of weekly bonuses, buy in bonus etc 100% match, 10- 35x rollover on slots that are supposedly only a 2% loss. Now pay affiliates some outrageous amount. Does not compute.

Not to mention, my experience is telling me it's no where close to the payback percentage they are claiming. I would be willing to make a wager on it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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