Convinced about Dice Setter, What Would it Take?
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30 members have voted
for arguments sake, say a session is 2 hours at the table. Yeah, I know that means a lot of variation for how much you get to see one shooter.
I once observed other players were quite convinced a dice setter could influence the dice and they were following him around and passing the dice so as to minimize their own influence. At least two players were making this clear, and I felt more were in on this. I went along with it and benefited, but didn't make all that much as I stuck to betting the minimum... though with max odds and plenty of come bets.
The reason for that was that I had no idea why they were so convinced. Very easily they may have been convinced by something that wouldn't convince me, such as there being one day where the guy had lots of winning sessions. Now, for sure he did set the dice, and it did seem as though the dice were hitting the back wall very gently tossing from next to stick. So admittedly those requirements were met for me. I talked to him at the cashier line and he was definitely bragging, not just saying 'oh I was just lucky'
I would still require more than the two sessions I saw, though they came out well for him. I would be influenced no doubt if I kept betting more and winning more. If he had an occasional losing session, I would consider that normal. I probably could never get to 100% sure, but if a clear majority of sessions were winners after 20 or so, I'd consider it a good theory he could do it, or at least he's damned lucky and who cares how it is happening. I think it would be an unrealistic maybe 200 sessions to be able to say, you know, I think I did run into someone who seemed to be able to do it.
How about you?
If I'm still skeptical, I would hope to be indulged with a hopping hardway demonstration.
tuttigym
A slow-motion video that shows many shots where the dice not bouncing around in a random manner enough to beat the house edge, along with some experts explaining why and how the influence is happening.Quote: odiousgambitYou can vote in the poll, the question is, what would it take to convince you a dice setter can really do it ? Not a scientific experiment, but just observing at the same table.
for arguments sake, say a session is 2 hours at the table. Yeah, I know that means a lot of variation for how much you get to see one shooter.
I once observed other players were quite convinced a dice setter could influence the dice and they were following him around and passing the dice so as to minimize their own influence. At least two players were making this clear, and I felt more were in on this. I went along with it and benefited, but didn't make all that much as I stuck to betting the minimum... though with max odds and plenty of come bets.
The reason for that was that I had no idea why they were so convinced. Very easily they may have been convinced by something that wouldn't convince me, such as there being one day where the guy had lots of winning sessions. Now, for sure he did set the dice, and it did seem as though the dice were hitting the back wall very gently tossing from next to stick. So admittedly those requirements were met for me. I talked to him at the cashier line and he was definitely bragging, not just saying 'oh I was just lucky'
I would still require more than the two sessions I saw, though they came out well for him. I would be influenced no doubt if I kept betting more and winning more. If he had an occasional losing session, I would consider that normal. I probably could never get to 100% sure, but if a clear majority of sessions were winners after 20 or so, I'd consider it a good theory he could do it, or at least he's damned lucky and who cares how it is happening. I think it would be an unrealistic maybe 200 sessions to be able to say, you know, I think I did run into someone who seemed to be able to do it.
How about you?
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Quote: AxelWolfA slow-motion video that shows many shots where the dice not bouncing around in a random manner enough to beat the house edge, along with some experts explaining why and how the influence is happening.Quote: odiousgambitYou can vote in the poll, the question is, what would it take to convince you a dice setter can really do it ? Not a scientific experiment, but just observing at the same table.
for arguments sake, say a session is 2 hours at the table. Yeah, I know that means a lot of variation for how much you get to see one shooter.
I once observed other players were quite convinced a dice setter could influence the dice and they were following him around and passing the dice so as to minimize their own influence. At least two players were making this clear, and I felt more were in on this. I went along with it and benefited, but didn't make all that much as I stuck to betting the minimum... though with max odds and plenty of come bets.
The reason for that was that I had no idea why they were so convinced. Very easily they may have been convinced by something that wouldn't convince me, such as there being one day where the guy had lots of winning sessions. Now, for sure he did set the dice, and it did seem as though the dice were hitting the back wall very gently tossing from next to stick. So admittedly those requirements were met for me. I talked to him at the cashier line and he was definitely bragging, not just saying 'oh I was just lucky'
I would still require more than the two sessions I saw, though they came out well for him. I would be influenced no doubt if I kept betting more and winning more. If he had an occasional losing session, I would consider that normal. I probably could never get to 100% sure, but if a clear majority of sessions were winners after 20 or so, I'd consider it a good theory he could do it, or at least he's damned lucky and who cares how it is happening. I think it would be an unrealistic maybe 200 sessions to be able to say, you know, I think I did run into someone who seemed to be able to do it.
How about you?
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Of course. With variance, unless the purported DI was unreal in his ability, any good or bad result could be the result of variance.
There will be no such video, however, because there are no, nor will there ever be, legal DI who can overcome the house edge.
Quote: odiousgambitYou can vote in the poll, the question is, what would it take to convince you a dice setter can really do it ?
{snip}
How about you?
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At the tables? That's really iffy. The guy might just want to run one good long roll (~25 rolls) and escape notice by the casino. So, maybe follow him around The Strip and watch him reel off a 25-roll session, head to the next casino, do it again, over and over. That would make it 'more probable than not', especially if spread over a full week. Coming up a consistent winner is a requirement
In the lab? I'd want to see at least a 2% edge in the Seven-to-Rolls-Ratio over 1500 rolls before I'd consider DI 'more probable than not'.
Hell, if Wizard could get someone to go to Vegas for that Two Dice thing he had last week, I'm sure someone could wrangle up the Golden Craps boys (Scoblete, Dominator, Sharpshooter, etc) to convince us all. NDAs would be required, I imagine.
They'd say "variance" was responsible for the great results.
Stop wasting your time here.
Quote: AlanMendelson
{snip}
Stop wasting your time here.
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Life is short, but I do enjoy a friendly discussion.
When it no is no longer friendly or civilized, that's when I spend time elsewhere.
Besides, this time tomorrow, I'll be at the craps table in Cherokee.
I would absolutely accept a slow-motion video that shows many shots where the dice are not bouncing around in a random manner enough to beat the house edge, along with some experts explaining why and how the influence is happening.Quote: AlanMendelsonBillHasRetired even if a DI surpassed all of the requirements stated by the members of this forum they would never acknowledge Dice Influencing.
They'd say "variance" was responsible for the great results.
Stop wasting your time here.
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I would absolutely love it if DI was a real thing, there would be much money to be made.
Quote: AxelWolfI would absolutely accept a slow-motion video that shows many shots where the dice are not bouncing around in a random manner enough to beat the house edge, along with some experts explaining why and how the influence is happening.Quote: AlanMendelsonBillHasRetired even if a DI surpassed all of the requirements stated by the members of this forum they would never acknowledge Dice Influencing.
They'd say "variance" was responsible for the great results.
Stop wasting your time here.
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I would absolutely love it if DI was a real thing, there would be much money to be made.
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Would you believe me if I told you that's what the three DIs did at Caesars?
Would you believe me if I told you that's why I was thrown out of MGM Grand and NYNY and Bellagio?
No you wouldn't. Because Wizard will point out that I saw a random shooter throw 18 Yos in a row.
Okay then...
Go ahead and Google when I was interviewed in the LVRJ about the WYNN dice sliding case. The article is there. Just Google my name, LVRJ, Wynn dice sliding.
And check out my dice sliding video on YouTube. It's there too.
But even if there were such a video you'd say it wasn't real.
Quote: AlanMendelson
Okay then...
Go ahead and Google when I was interviewed in the LVRJ about the WYNN dice sliding case. The article is there. Just Google my name, LVRJ, Wynn dice sliding.
And check out my dice sliding video on YouTube. It's there too.
But even if there were such a video you'd say it wasn't real.
Alan, thank you for your link re dice sliding - it was quite interesting
a few points - quote from the Nevada Gaming Control Board Chief - "it is a common form of cheating"
quote from you in the article - "dice sliding is so obvious that it's easy to stop. It would make no sense they could get away with that much money unless they had inside help."
I don't believe anybody here is saying that a person couldn't cheat via dice sliding and profit with or without compatriots
what posters here are saying is that it cannot be done with a legal toss
so, I believe your linked article, though interesting - is irrelevant
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https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/courts/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas/
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That's like me saying Baccarat can be beat. All you have to do is arrange for the dealer to do a false shuffle. Here is video of the Tran family beating Baccarat.
Dice SLIDING is illegal. That is controlling the dice no different than a dealer is controlling the cards in a false shuffle.
That you would get those confused is rather unnerving. Advantage Players are very keen to the difference. This may be why you are being battered on your arguments.
You mention the 18 yos in a row. I don't think anyone here would contradict that it could be done via cheating. Is that what you are trying to claim?
Dont ignore what I said about the 3 DIs.
They had legal throws. They hit (very gently) the lowest part of the back wall under the alligator bumps. They could do it because the tables were shorter then.
My dice also hit under the bumps when I was told to leave Bellagio. But after the fight with the dealers I actually got an apology from Bellagio management that my throws were Legal which is why I can play there again.
I can't go back to the other two casinos where I did the same thing.
And yes at Caesars too I had a minor incident over my throws. But I wasn't winning at craps so I acquiesced to their requests. I was more interested in video poker.
My point is DI can be accomplished with totally legal throws. That I know how to do "illegal" or questionable things at a craps table does not mean that I do them or that THE FEW TRUE DIs I'VE SEEN DO THEM.
Again, I mention the illegal and questionable just to illustrate I know my stuff.
So let's return to the subject at hand:
Why do you deny DI is possible? I admit it's a fine skill very few have. Why are you certain NO ONE has the skill?
Out of all the thousands of craps players how can you be certain no one influences two dice to win?
Look, I can slide dice and SOMETIMES I can have a soft roll that is the goal of a DI, but I admit I'm not a DI.
But how can you and the others be so sure no one can do it?
Is it because I saw someone roll 18 yos in a row?
the burden of proof is upon those who say it is being done and can be done
it's all but impossible for the other side - for the nay sayers - to prove a negative
if there are those who can do it - somebody needs to step up to the plate and show a video stream of 1,000 rolls with a reputable gambling authority such as the Wizard
if it's too tiring - they can do it in several days
nobody has done that - that fact makes me very suspicious - other AP stuff such as blackjack card counting has been absolutely proven
I repeat my signature___________"believe half of what you see___________and none of what you hear"_______________Edgar Allan Poe
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Out of all the thousands and thousands of craps players how can you be certain NO ONE has the skill to influence dice?
And...
Why would ANY true DI prove his ability? What's in it for him?
Why would any CARD COUNTER prove his ability?
So they can get banned?
This is why they use a hit and run strategy... to live another day.
Please answer my question. Remember there are thousands of craps players. And not all DIs sell courses in their garage.
Quote: AlanMendelson
Why would ANY true DI prove his ability? What's in it for him?
Why would any CARD COUNTER prove his ability?
So they can get banned?
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Historically, if something is possible, it's not just the people who CAN do it that study the possibility but someone who has only a scientific interest.
Take card counting. Why would a card counter prove his ability? You should ask Thorpe why he did it. The answer is he wasn't interested in BEING a card counter. He was interested in being a scientist who could prove a theory.
When you ask your questions above, the counter argument is why hasn't there been any scientific study where it was proven PEER REVIEWED that dice control works.
There is enough interest that some science oriented person would conduct and prove beyond a doubt in a controlled and repeatable environment that dice control works.
With all the thousands of scientists, why hasn't that happened like it has for card counting?
Quote: AlanMendelsonLLR I'm going to ask you again and please answer.
Out of all the thousands and thousands of craps players how can you be certain NO ONE has the skill to influence dice?
I never said I was certain
I would say I'm very doubtful
especially about this character Sharpshooter (Pawlicki) who is the leading representative of this
people know his name and could easily find a pic of him - and if agreed to be tested a video would not have to show his face
he is selling lots of stuff - making money that way - people already know who he is - no proof - I have a very low regard for this dude
and once again, he is in business with Frank Scoblete who before DI was touting an obviously bogus counting system for craps he called the "Five Count"
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this is my last post on this subject - I've made my point of view very clear - no more words from me could be helpful
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No, for the purposes of the poll, I'm making it the same thing ... it's not actually the same thing of courseQuote: tuttigymAre you making a distinction between "setting" and "influence/control"?
tuttigym
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I've seen where the alligator bumps go all the way down to the bottom. Mostly, though, tables have a spot just above the felt where there are none. Kind of remarkable.Quote: AlanMendelson[snip] ... the 3 DIs.
They had legal throws. They hit (very gently) the lowest part of the back wall under the alligator bumps. They could do it because the tables were shorter then.
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Alan, I was hoping we would hear how long you observed these guys before you became convinced. did you vote?
I'm having this tee shirt made up - I should receive it in just 3 days
just in time for my trip to Atlantic City - I'll be playing craps for 10 hours straight 7 days in row - I'll be crushing many different casinos
casino hopping so my skills won't be detected___________________(-:/
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I don't know if I would belive you are not. I certainly don't the Wizard to point out that you allegedly saw a random shooter throw 18 Yos in a row, I think I pointed that out before he did, even if you go back to your original post about it. Heck, I didn't even need the math done on that one to know it never happen. Just like I knew your son didn't hit 5 royals in one day, and I highly doubt you lost 20 hands(or whatever number you claim) of blackjack in a row(was that at the Sahara?) I might give you the 20 lost hands in a row because you probably played bad and hit hard 20s 😀.Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: AxelWolfI would absolutely accept a slow-motion video that shows many shots where the dice are not bouncing around in a random manner enough to beat the house edge, along with some experts explaining why and how the influence is happening.Quote: AlanMendelsonBillHasRetired even if a DI surpassed all of the requirements stated by the members of this forum they would never acknowledge Dice Influencing.
They'd say "variance" was responsible for the great results.
Stop wasting your time here.
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I would absolutely love it if DI was a real thing, there would be much money to be made.
link to original post
Would you believe me if I told you that's what the three DIs did at Caesars?
Would you believe me if I told you that's why I was thrown out of MGM Grand and NYNY and Bellagio?
No you wouldn't. Because Wizard will point out that I saw a random shooter throw 18 Yos in a row.
Okay then...
Go ahead and Google when I was interviewed in the LVRJ about the WYNN dice sliding case. The article is there. Just Google my name, LVRJ, Wynn dice sliding.
And check out my dice sliding video on YouTube. It's there too.
But even if there were such a video you'd say it wasn't real.
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The fact that you admit you are not a DI, and yet, they tossed you out... proves my point about the casinos having a knee-jerk reaction and a better safe than sorry attitude. The further you go back to when Dice Control(the name they used at the time) was in its heyday, especially after the Breaking Vegas episode came out, you will see a trend where the casinos were tossing people out left and right for attempting DI, not so much nowadays.
I don't need to google anything about dice sliding, I am well aware that's a proven way to manipulate a predictable outcome of the dice.
It should also say, 18 Yo's in a row... here I come.Quote: lilredrooster_____________
I'm having this tee shirt made up - I should receive it in just 3 days
just in time for my trip to Atlantic City - I'll be playing craps for 10 hours straight 7 days in row - I'll be crushing many different casinos
casino hopping so my skills won't be detected___________________(-:/
.
.
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They should be, because that's about the only way they are going to be making any money.Quote: AlanMendelsonAnd not all DIs sell courses in their garage.
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Quote: odiousgambitI've seen where the alligator bumps go all the way down to the bottom. Mostly, though, tables have a spot just above the felt where there are none. Kind of remarkable.Quote: AlanMendelson[snip] ... the 3 DIs.
They had legal throws. They hit (very gently) the lowest part of the back wall under the alligator bumps. They could do it because the tables were shorter then.
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Alan, I was hoping we would hear how long you observed these guys before you became convinced. did you vote?
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I'm not voting.
I've only seen tables with at least two inches before the bumps start.
You get a good idea something is different with a shooter with just one throw.
I'll take that as a vote for item #1, thank youQuote: AlanMendelsonI'm not voting.
I've only seen tables with at least two inches before the bumps start.
You get a good idea something is different with a shooter with just one throw.
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Or did I miss it. How long have they had cameras on casino games? 50 years.
Is there some reason a casino would never show it?
Edit , I suppose even 2 hours might not be enough time.
Anyway, the idea is being careful you haven’t missed something occurring on the actual event vs the test.
I am sure he has had, in the past, a number of interactions with Scoblete students and followers. I personally met up with a number of them about 12 years ago. The play was over a two day period and there were 7 or 8 really nice guys who were really into DC. Over the course of that time there were 6 sessions and one player in one hand had a hand that exceeded 10 tosses before a 7 out. To say the least, the group disappointment was evident.
For me, DC/DI is impossible and the scammers like Scoblete, his stooge, Dom and the others selling their snake oil know it.
tuttigym
There are also quacks in medical care, and bogus lawyers, and imposters in every industry.
But I'm going to ask one more time: out of all the thousands of dice players are you saying there cant be ten true DIs?
How about 5?
How about 3?
Have you witnessed the play of every craps shooter in the world to reach your decision? If you have witnessed the play of every craps shooter in the world then you win the argument.
Quote: ChumpChangeI think setting the dice is a skill to learn. Throwing for results that are acceptable is a separate skill included with setting the dice. People who set the dice then random roll anyway are really no better than random rollers.
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I thought that years ago everyone knew the difference between dice setting and dice influencing.
Anyone can set dice.
The funny thing is watching someone set their dice then pick them up and shake them before throwing them to bounce all over the table.
Quote: ChumpChangeDon't forget that the world turns while the dice are in the air.
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Gosh it's amazing we don't fly away when we jump up.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere is no question that there have been snake oil salesmen.
There are also quacks in medical care, and bogus lawyers, and imposters in every industry.
But I'm going to ask one more time: out of all the thousands of dice players are you saying there cant be ten true DIs?
How about 5?
How about 3?
Have you witnessed the play of every craps shooter in the world to reach your decision? If you have witnessed the play of every craps shooter in the world then you win the argument.
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Don't need to witness "every" craps shooter just those who claim DI/DC, and I have. Thanks for the win!
tuttigym
There was another DI guy on here who had a table and complete setup. He had a very good-looking shot along with some videos. I can't remember his forum name, IIRC he was an older gentleman, I hope he is still with us.Quote: tuttigymOne of our forum members, DeMango, was a Scoblete disciple. He had his own regulation table and practiced religiously for a very long time. His toss, which I have witnessed, was incredibly consistent in elevation, distance to the back wall, velocity, trajectory, bounce, etc. First, it would be interesting to hear from him and what, if any, were his results, and second, perhaps, tell us what he has discovered about DI. What I witnessed, as far, as his results when he played was that his play was basically average.
I am sure he has had, in the past, a number of interactions with Scoblete students and followers. I personally met up with a number of them about 12 years ago. The play was over a two day period and there were 7 or 8 really nice guys who were really into DC. Over the course of that time there were 6 sessions and one player in one hand had a hand that exceeded 10 tosses before a 7 out. To say the least, the group disappointment was evident.
For me, DC/DI is impossible and the scammers like Scoblete, his stooge, Dom and the others selling their snake oil know it.
tuttigym
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FYI I have access to Ahigh former craps table here in Vegas if anyone wants to prove somthing. We would have to make it worthwhile.
Quote: ChumpChangeDon't forget that the world turns while the dice are in the air.
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Any craps tables at the equator?
Axel mentioned Ahigh - he last posted here on May 26 of this year
he is an interesting guy who loves craps - and many of his posts are quite thoughtful - I enjoyed his posts
I don't recall what he said about DI but iirc I don't think he claimed he could do it
the link is to all of his posts
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https://wizardofvegas.com/member/ahigh/posts/
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Because that's the point here.
There have been so many people claiming to be DIs that the VERY FEW TRUE DICE INFLUENCERS aren't believed.
But on second thought it's a good thing that so many people claim to be DIs because that allows the true DIs to run under the radar and just win because of "variance."
Yep, variance is a great camouflage.
We dont want the dealers rolling dice or Bubble Craps to take over.
Quote: AlanMendelsonBut I'm going to ask one more time: out of all the thousands of dice players are you saying there cant be ten true DIs?
Yes, that is my belief.
DI, like religion, is a matter of FAITH coupled to motivational perception.
https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
Quote: AlanMendelsonWe dont want the dealers rolling dice or Bubble Craps to take over.
The game appears to be losing popularity.
Our local Aqueuct racino, where players once had to wait for an open seat at a $15 bubble game, has reduced their table minimum to $1 due to a lack of players. Even at $1, only about 20% of the seats are occupied on weekends.
I went to CT. last week, to shoot dice. Foxwoods and Mohegan eliminated half their tables.
Their bubble craps seats were mostly empty.
Quote: TankoQuote: AlanMendelsonWe dont want the dealers rolling dice or Bubble Craps to take over.
The game appears to be losing popularity.
Our local Aqueuct racino, where players once had to wait for an open seat at a $15 bubble game, has reduced their table minimum to $1 due to a lack of players. Even at $1, only about 20% of the seats are occupied on weekends.
I went to CT. last week, to shoot dice. Foxwoods and Mohegan eliminated half their tables.
Their bubble craps seats were mostly empty.
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I would never play Bubble craps. How can you possibly compare bubble craps to actually throwing dice to decide the game?
Quote: AlanMendelsonIt's nice to see that some news organizations keep quoting you years later. Here's another dice sliding case, this one in Tahoe.
Kudos for that, but reading the aricle I see you are described as "a former gaming reporter."
Huh?
Your LinkedIn page, which I presume you helped construct, says nothing of you having previously reported on gaming issues; finances, business and later selling stuff seems to have been your forte.
I'd have called you "a former reporter who has long enjoyed gaming," not "a former gaming reporter."
Please advise if my analyxis is infirm; but congrats anyway for the recognition.
Quote: AlanMendelsonHow can you possibly compare bubble craps to actually throwing dice to decide the game?
I don't. That's why I spent two days in CT.
Unfortunately, the demand for felt appears to be slipping.
If this keeps up, there won't be any dice shooters left in the wild.
