Convinced about Dice Setter, What Would it Take?
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30 members have voted
The three casinos I frequent all seem to have less action at their craps tables than was the case pre-covid.
I have avoided playing craps since covid hit due to concerns about being in unprotected proximity to others; perhaps fear of infection deters other players?
Quote:I would never play Bubble craps. How can you possibly compare bubble craps to actually throwing dice to decide the game?
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I play Bubble Craps over regular for the following reasons:
It's a faster game. There is a roll every 20 seconds.
You control all your bets. No having to wait for the dealer to ask you 'what do you want to do ?'.
Lower minimums.Minimum bet is usually $5.00.
No crowded tables. You play alone on your machine. The person next t you could be playing Roulette or Baccarat.
I'm winning!!!
You should take it up with the author of the article, MrV.
However I did write about Gaming for my website and I did cover Gaming for KCAL-TV.
But you're correct that I never claimed to be a Gaming reporter.
I think you should make a federal case out of it with a 36 page thread.
I asked, you answered: end of story.
if it's true it's on the wane everywhere, I'd blame the high table minimums we are seeingQuote: MrVBased on anecdotal evidence (me viewing things) I agree that craps is on the wane.
The three casinos I frequent all seem to have less action at their craps tables than was the case pre-covid.
I have avoided playing craps since covid hit due to concerns about being in unprotected proximity to others; perhaps fear of infection deters other players?
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Quote: lilredrooster________________
the burden of proof is upon those who say it is being done and can be done
it's all but impossible for the other side - for the nay sayers - to prove a negative
if there are those who can do it - somebody needs to step up to the plate and show a video stream of 1,000 rolls with a reputable gambling authority such as the Wizard
if it's too tiring - they can do it in several days
nobody has done that - that fact makes me very suspicious - other AP stuff such as blackjack card counting has been absolutely proven
I repeat my signature___________"believe half of what you see___________and none of what you hear"_______________Edgar Allan Poe
.
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If people can do DI, they would not want you or anyone else to know that they are capable of doing that. And certainly they would have absolutely no desire to organize and endure the extraordinary effort of videotaping 1000 throws with some authoritative person nearby to certify their throws.
I get impatient when people require extraordinary proofs requiring other people to act against their own interests and to stage monumental demonstrations. The world doesn't naturally organize itself to provide convincing video proof of 'illegal' activity so you can sit on your couch and see the proofs without making any personal effort at all.
Quote: gordonm888The world doesn't naturally organize itself to provide convincing video proof of 'illegal' activity so you can sit on your couch and see the proofs without making any personal effort at all.
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The dice influencers I observed at Caesars were not breaking any law. Their dice flew in the air, bounced on the table and hit the back wall... but below the alligator bumps.
I was breaking no law when I was thrown out of MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio. They just didnt want me winning.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI was breaking no law when I was thrown out of MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio. They just didnt want me winning.
They really don't care if you win or lose so long as you play by their rules they'll win in the long run.
DI is against their rules, so that's that.
Quote: MrVQuote: AlanMendelsonI was breaking no law when I was thrown out of MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio. They just didnt want me winning.
They really don't care if you win or lose as so long as you play by their rules they'll win in the long run.
DI is against their rules, so that's that.
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True.
Question: how successful were you with it on those occasions?
Were you killing 'em?
Do you consider youself a DI, given the fact three casinos have labeled you as such?
I see that Heavy and his crew just put on a DI tutorial in sin city recently: do you know whethre he is he still relevant in the DI world?
I ask only because you seem to follow this sort of thing.
Quote: gordonm888
If people can do DI, they would not want you or anyone else to know that they are capable of doing that. And certainly they would have absolutely no desire to organize and endure the extraordinary effort of videotaping 1000 throws with some authoritative person nearby to certify their throws.
I get impatient when people require extraordinary proofs requiring other people to act against their own interests and to stage monumental demonstrations. The world doesn't naturally organize itself to provide convincing video proof of 'illegal' activity so you can sit on your couch and see the proofs without making any personal effort at all.
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Are you kidding or serious?
I can't think of a single secret profession that doesn't have a revealer somewhere. The masked magician reveals tricks. Ex-spies reveal secrets. Successful scammers tell how they did it. There's always SOMEONE out there ready to sell out. Books, etc.,
True, there's always some elements that still manage to not get revealed, but over time, those tend to fall into the public domain.
I do agree few people want to submit to near unendurable tests. Well, except if someone offers them a big enough payday.
Quote: MrVSo Alan, you were tossed out of three casinos for your display of DI.
Question: how successful were you with it on those occasions?
Were you killing 'em?
Do you consider youself a DI, given the fact three casinos have labeled you as such?
I see that Heavy and his crew just put on a DI tutorial in sin city recently: do you know whethre he is he still relevant in the DI world?
I ask only because you seem to follow this sort of thing.
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Yes, I was killing them.
No, I'm not a successful DI. I try, but I don't have the skill.
My times at MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio were lucky. But they interpreted my luck and my "form" to mean I was a real DI.
I havent spoken to Heavy in more than ten years but I use the cross sixes set because of him.
Quote: MrV
I have avoided playing craps since covid hit due to concerns about being in unprotected proximity to others; perhaps fear of infection deters other players?
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Does this mean you will be changing your signature?
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: gordonm888The world doesn't naturally organize itself to provide convincing video proof of 'illegal' activity so you can sit on your couch and see the proofs without making any personal effort at all.
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The dice influencers I observed at Caesars were not breaking any law. Their dice flew in the air, bounced on the table and hit the back wall... but below the alligator bumps.
I was breaking no law when I was thrown out of MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio. They just didnt want me winning.
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I have a vague recollection of someone on the forum saying that in NJ the casinos can not trespass a player just because they are card-counting. Something about AP techniques alone not being a justification. If that's true would the same principal also protect a supposed DI?
Quote: TumblingBonesQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: gordonm888The world doesn't naturally organize itself to provide convincing video proof of 'illegal' activity so you can sit on your couch and see the proofs without making any personal effort at all.
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The dice influencers I observed at Caesars were not breaking any law. Their dice flew in the air, bounced on the table and hit the back wall... but below the alligator bumps.
I was breaking no law when I was thrown out of MGM Grand, NYNY and Bellagio. They just didnt want me winning.
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I have a vague recollection of someone on the forum saying that in NJ the casinos can not trespass a player just because they are card-counting. Something about AP techniques alone not being a justification. If that's true would the same principal also protect a supposed DI?
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I assume he is referring to Ceasars in Vegas since he mentioned the MGM and Bellagio.
When I was evicted for multicarding in Atlantic City, I pointed this out to the security staff and they seem to believe that the aspects of the law are specific to card counting.
They are mistaken but until it's challenged in court they will continue to misapply the law.
You cannot be evicted from a NJ Casino (or any place of business) without cause.
Cause in NJ is violation of the law. That's really it.
In fact the law specifically states if you return to a place of eviction and are obeying the law then you have an affirmative defense to being able to trespassing.
That's a reality that doesn't suit casinos however.
EDIT: NJ gives the Casino control commission powers to bar people permanently, but even those powers are highly restrictive in that the power is defined with qualifiers.
For example you can be banned from ALL NJ Casinos if you have been tried and convicted of three crimes in any NJ casino.
You can see however that even the NJ Casino control commission cannot evict a patron who has even committed two crimes only much less no crimes and the Casinos power to evict isn't supposed to supercede the power of the commission
Quote: TumblingBonesDoes this mean you will be changing your signature?
Nah.
The "What, me worry?" is of course lifted from now-defunct Mad Magazine.
Note that I had a concern about covid; properly vaccinated I am not really worried.
I figure I'll catch at eventually, as will we all.
Craps-golf. Once a month, a las vegas golf course draws out chalk squares on each green with numbers on them. And to make the point you need to put your ball in the square in par.
And.. haven't thought of the rest of the rules yet.
: }
Quote: rxwineWhile thinking about when I was watching pro-golfers filling a small area of the practice range with a bunch of well-placed shots I thought of a new game.
Craps-golf. Once a month, a las vegas golf course draws out chalk squares on each green with numbers on them. And to make the point you need to put your ball in the square in par.
And.. haven't thought of the rest of the rules yet.
: }
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Unless the "squares" are really small and the ball has to ricochet off a wall with bunches of small bumps, the house will never survive.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymQuote: rxwineWhile thinking about when I was watching pro-golfers filling a small area of the practice range with a bunch of well-placed shots I thought of a new game.
Craps-golf. Once a month, a las vegas golf course draws out chalk squares on each green with numbers on them. And to make the point you need to put your ball in the square in par.
And.. haven't thought of the rest of the rules yet.
: }
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Unless the "squares" are really small and the ball has to ricochet off a wall with bunches of small bumps, the house will never survive.
tuttigym
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That was really funny!
Quote: unJonQuote: tuttigymQuote: rxwineWhile thinking about when I was watching pro-golfers filling a small area of the practice range with a bunch of well-placed shots I thought of a new game.
Craps-golf. Once a month, a las vegas golf course draws out chalk squares on each green with numbers on them. And to make the point you need to put your ball in the square in par.
And.. haven't thought of the rest of the rules yet.
: }
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Unless the "squares" are really small and the ball has to ricochet off a wall with bunches of small bumps, the house will never survive.
tuttigym
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That was really funny!
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Also true... unless you think professional golfers are part of a con?
If a person can take say, $20,000 and turn it into $10,000,000 playing craps... yeah you've found a dice setting perfection.
Quote: ontariodealerWow, years have gone by and still the same discussion's.
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Yes the same unrealistic misconceptions about dice influencing (there is no control) continue.
I recovered my password and voted 10 sessions, but I want to qualify that would be 10 sessions of just the person shooting, and only with them attempting to avoid sevens. If they throw any "set" of dice that are turned (e.g. a hard 6 showing with the two threes angled opposite), and do have control over the dice, they'll roll closer to 125 sevens out of 1000 than 167. Three SD of sevens on 1000 rolls is ~35, so true range of 7s for that time is 132-202 roughly, controlled range would be like 100-150.
There's some overlap in those ranges, but basically if somebody could roll 1,000 controlled shots, if they hit less than 132 sevens, I'm a believer, if they hit less than 150 I'd be willing to rerun the experiment, 150+ they're full of it.
I would go with that, but as a transient condition. It sounds like fun to follow the pack around and benefit while the luck holds out. I would never believe anything more than luck is at work, much less risk serious cash betting the luck can be manufactured by influencing the rolls.Quote: odiousgambit… he's damned lucky …
I was wondering more about the real life situation, where you just have to make a judgement seeing what you see, being scientific in data collection a real challenge. Knowing what the shooter is trying to roll would need to be known, it isn't always 7 avoidance.Quote: mrfatcatI have no clue if I'm doing this right, most forums I've posted on there's a box at the bottom that you type into and so I'm sorry if I'm incorrect to just be replying to the last post.
I recovered my password and voted 10 sessions, but I want to qualify that would be 10 sessions of just the person shooting, and only with them attempting to avoid sevens. If they throw any "set" of dice that are turned (e.g. a hard 6 showing with the two threes angled opposite), and do have control over the dice, they'll roll closer to 125 sevens out of 1000 than 167. Three SD of sevens on 1000 rolls is ~35, so true range of 7s for that time is 132-202 roughly, controlled range would be like 100-150.
There's some overlap in those ranges, but basically if somebody could roll 1,000 controlled shots, if they hit less than 132 sevens, I'm a believer, if they hit less than 150 I'd be willing to rerun the experiment, 150+ they're full of it.
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That was a good response though, thanks
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: ontariodealerWow, years have gone by and still the same discussion's.
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Yes the same unrealistic misconceptions about dice influencing (there is no control) continue.
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If we want to be super technical, that MIT team did make a robot that could accurately throw dice into a small range of advantaged numbers, but that was without hitting the back wall of the rubbery alligator teeth lined craps tables. Once they hit the back wall, it went back to being true random.
Also sneaking a robotic arm into the casino I would imagine being very difficult. ;)
The few "good shooters" have the dice come to rest just under the bumps against the center back wall.
But you don't see that on YouTube.
On YouTube you see bogus claims of what DI is and you criticize the concept of true DI because of those bogus claims.
But don't worry about it. There are maybe only five people in the world who can really do it.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWho says you have to hit the alligator bumps?
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I may be wrong but In Pennsylvania which from what I understand models their laws after Vegas …specifies that you need to hit the back wall
Im like 75 percent sure about that though I’ll have to look it up
Quote: heatmapQuote: AlanMendelsonWho says you have to hit the alligator bumps?
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I may be wrong but In Pennsylvania which from what I understand models their laws after Vegas …specifies that you need to hit the back wall
Im like 75 percent sure about that though I’ll have to look it up
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The alligator bumps don’t cover the very bottom of the back wall.
Easy. I'll believe it when the Wizard says it can be done.Quote: odiousgambit...the question is, what would it take to convince you a dice setter can really do it?
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Quote: heatmapQuote: AlanMendelsonWho says you have to hit the alligator bumps?
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I may be wrong but In Pennsylvania which from what I understand models their laws after Vegas …specifies that you need to hit the back wall
Im like 75 percent sure about that though I’ll have to look it up
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Do the alligator bumps on tables in Pennsylvania start right where the wall meets the table?
They don't here in Vegas. Some tables give you a few inches of a smooth wall before the bumps start.
Let me know the next time you go into a casino.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: heatmapQuote: AlanMendelsonWho says you have to hit the alligator bumps?
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I may be wrong but In Pennsylvania which from what I understand models their laws after Vegas …specifies that you need to hit the back wall
Im like 75 percent sure about that though I’ll have to look it up
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Do the alligator bumps on tables in Pennsylvania start right where the wall meets the table?
They don't here in Vegas. Some tables give you a few inches of a smooth wall before the bumps start.
Let me know the next time you go into a casino.
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Not a problem ill check it out
Quote: heatmapQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: heatmapQuote: AlanMendelsonWho says you have to hit the alligator bumps?
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I may be wrong but In Pennsylvania which from what I understand models their laws after Vegas …specifies that you need to hit the back wall
Im like 75 percent sure about that though I’ll have to look it up
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Do the alligator bumps on tables in Pennsylvania start right where the wall meets the table?
They don't here in Vegas. Some tables give you a few inches of a smooth wall before the bumps start.
Let me know the next time you go into a casino.
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Not a problem ill check it out
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im looking at what i think to be a legit picture of a pa craps table and what you are saying seems to be consistent with that statement
Gene
Gene
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPhStanding offer to any dice control proponent. I will take your class free of charge, and you provide me with all books, instruments, materials, whatever to "control the dice". I will practice 40 hours a week for 6 months to become proficient. Then I will, at your expense, travel the country in a tricked out van going from casino to casino playing craps with your bankroll. You set mins and max. You set betting patterns and betting strategy. With my winnings, after you recover your expenses, we split the proceeds 50/50, Deal?
Gene
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Mr.DRPh: You are a little late to this party. I would suggest that well over 98% of forum members are quite confident that DI/DC is impossible. Perhaps you could go to one of the DC forums and make that challenge, but you would have to sweeten the pot by putting your own assets on the line for the "challenge" to have any legs otherwise where is the incentive?
tuttigym
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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Dice CONTROL does not exist. Dice INFLUENCING has different levels of success.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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Dice CONTROL does not exist. Dice INFLUENCING has different levels of success.
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No it doesn’t.
No matter how many times you say it does.
Fact.
Quote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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I offered such a challenge years ago. It was accepted. After failing, the wannabe DI politely paid me. I truly think the experience changed his mind on the subject.
I offer it this way. ‘Tell me what you think you can do and I’ll offer you a bet that you can’t’. As an example, if a DI guy says he can cut his 7’s down to 6 out of 60 from an expected 10 out of 60, I’d make the bet something like he wins on 6, 7 is a tie, and 8 or more I win.
I do understand I could lose by unlucky variance, But I’ll take the chance.
Quote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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Again, wrong forum. I believe it is safe to assume that no one here are "DC proponents." Thinking something is real or possible does not make them proponents; it makes them advocates without proof and certainly not active participants.
tuttigym
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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Dice CONTROL does not exist. Dice INFLUENCING has different levels of success.
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No it doesn’t.
No matter how many times you say it does.
Fact.
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In the entire world there isn't just one player who can influence dice?
Gene
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/craps-not-set-in-stone/
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: SOOPOOQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhI'm daring the DC proponents to put their money where their mouths are. There are at least 1 or more people here who think DC is real.
Gene
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Dice CONTROL does not exist. Dice INFLUENCING has different levels of success.
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No it doesn’t.
No matter how many times you say it does.
Fact.
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In the entire world there isn't just one player who can influence dice?
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Correct. Just like there isn’t one person that can run 100 yards in 8 seconds. Just like there isn’t one person that can correctly guess roulette bets 80% of the time. (‘Even chance’ bets).
I am not saying there isn’t someone who can’t throw the dice soft, or rotate them somewhat more or less. I am only saying there is no human that can influence the result of the dice using a casino legal throw, in a manner that will overcome the house edge in craps. Alan, just look at a few slow motion videos of thrown dice and it will really become obvious to you that I am correct.
Quit a few casinos have shut their doors over the last few years. I must be from all those DI's they didn't take seriously.Quote: GenoDRPhWho and where is he or she?
Gene
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