Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000

Quote: rdw4potus

Being drunk and disorderly is illegal. So is being underage and loitering on a casino floor. Counting cards is not illegal. So, yes, I'm still kind of confused.

Dan will be glad to unconfuse you. If you play BJ within the rules but are deemed capable of winning, you will be accused of cheating and soon barred. What is confusing about that ??

No, I will be glad to clarify it instead:

"You may be expelled from a premises without technically breaking a law of the penal code, by virtue of breaking a house rule of a business establishment."

That's it.

How is this difficult to understand or confusing to you?

Quote: Buzzpaff

If you play BJ within the rules but are deemed capable of winning, you will be accused of cheating and soon barred. What is confusing about that ??

Counting is NOT within the house rules of casino blackjack at this point. It just isn't. So this means that it is NOT within the casino's rules, - regardless of its status within county or state laws and codes.

This seems to be a major obstacle for people who are smart enough to count, but not smart enough to understand the difference between a casino's house rules, and a county or state's penal code system. Players DO get backed off, we have threads describing actual real-world backoffs occuring. We see it, we know about it, but we can't seem to grasp the cause-and-effect actions of:
1. counting cards and
2. then being backed off for it.
There is actually a cause-and-effect relationship going on here. Come on, people, connect the dots: "against casino rules = backed off."

I wonder if the scorpion argued long with the turtle before they tried to cross the river....

They may have.

Counting is NOT within the house rules of casino blackjack at this point. It just isn't.

It sure as hell is not excluded by anything within the house rules !!!

Nareed Not my fault Dan has brought a knife to a gun fight.

No.
I told gamblers - at a gamblers' forum of all places - how casino management simply has to operate.
This was met with storms and screams in the night.

Quote: buzzpaff

Counting is NOT within the house rules of casino blackjack at this point. It just isn't.

It sure as hell is not excluded by anything within the house rules !!!

Yes, it is, Virginia. Card-counters do not get backed off because it is Tuesday and it is raining.
They get backed off because....they got caught counting cards.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
I told gamblers - at a gamblers' forum of all places - how casino management simply has to operate.
This was met with storms and screams in the night.

The protests were mostly about being labeled cheaters while playing within the posted rules. Not looking for a free lunch!

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, they may indeed - so as long as it was not for race, religion, or ethnicity.
So as long as the reasons pertain to their business needs, and are reasonably justified by that need - out you go.

They don't have to pertain to anything. You can kick a person out for being too black or not black enough, as long as you don't tell him it's what he was kicked out for.

Should he eventually try and seek recourse, which is itself unlikely, you can always backdoor a reason.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
I told gamblers - at a gamblers' forum of all places - how casino management simply has to operate.
This was met with storms and screams in the night.


Yes, it is, Virginia. Card-counters do not get backed off because it is Tuesday and it is raining.
They get backed off because....they got caught counting cards.

There is nothing within the posted rules that say a player can not count. NOTHING

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
I told gamblers - at a gamblers' forum of all places - how casino management simply has to operate.
This was met with storms and screams in the night.


Yes, it is, Virginia. Card-counters do not get backed off because it is Tuesday and it is raining.
They get backed off because....they got caught counting cards.

Buzz's point, and this is pretty clear now, is that the sheet of house rules that must be available (by law) for any game that a casino in NV spreads DOES NOT INCLUDE A SPECIFIC RULE AGAINST COUNTING CARDS. If it isn't illegal, and it doesn't violate a published house rule...

Seriously now, is adding that explicit statement really too difficult for casino management?

Quote: rdw4potus

Buzz's point, and this is pretty clear now, is that the sheet of house rules that must be available (by law) for any game that a casino in NV spreads DOES NOT INCLUDE A SPECIFIC RULE AGAINST COUNTING CARDS. If it isn't illegal, and it doesn't violate a published house rule...

Seriously now, is adding that explicit statement really too difficult for casino management?

YES

Quote: buzzpaff

The protests were mostly about being labeled cheaters while playing within the posted rules. Not looking for a free lunch!

Now, if you're an advantage player, then why in the world would you cry about what surveillance or casino management thinks?
Does a cat care about a mouse's opinion? No. Does it matter? No. Oh, and by the way, card counters and AP's are viewed as seeking a free lunch, - like bringing tupperware to the Buffet for extra take-home.

Quote: buzzpaff

There is nothing within the posted rules that say a player can not count. NOTHING

Believe whatever you choose to believe.
Surveillance doesn't put card counters on casino watch lists because they dig their blue suede shoes.
They put card counters on watch lists because of...card counting.
Kid yourself if you want.

Quote: Paigowdan

Now, if you're an advantage player, then why in the world would you cry about what surveillance or casino management thinks?
Does a cat care about a mouse's opinion? No. Does it matter? No.


Believe whatever you choose to believe.
Surveillance doesn't put card counters on casino watch lists because they dig their blue suede shoes.
They put card counters on watch lists because of...card counting.
Kid yourself if you want.

And once again Dan's answer has nothing to do with the question. He will never admit the following statement is TRUE

Quote: buzzpaff
There is nothing within the posted rules that say a player can not count. NOTHING

Quote: buzzpaff

There is nothing within the posted rules that say a player can not count. NOTHING

Quote: Paigowdan

They put card counters on watch lists because of...card counting.

I don't see how is this statement disproving buzzpaff or really in any way answering him. You're burning a strawman.

Quote: P90

I don't see how is this statement disproving buzzpaff or really in any way answering him. You're burning a strawman.

Dan is like the moth drawn to the flame. You are winning, therefore you must be cheating.

I'm kind of late to this game and admit that I haven't read all 20+ pages of the thread. But I'm not going to let that stop me from giving my opinion.

Buzzpaff, why do you feel it's important that it be a posted rule? We don't have a posted rule that says you can't treat our employees poorly but I can assure you that you will be shown the door for doing so. I can't refuse you service for any federally protected reason (like race, gender etc) but I can if I don't like the color of your shirt.

Mark

Quote: buzzpaff

Dan is like the moth drawn to the flame. You are winning, therefore you must be cheating.

It's against the rul...oh, we didn't bother to write that one down?!? Well, you're banned anyway. Please give us back our chips on your way out.

Quote: rdw4potus

Buzz's point, and this is pretty clear now, is that the sheet of house rules that must be available (by law) for any game that a casino in NV spreads DOES NOT INCLUDE A SPECIFIC RULE AGAINST COUNTING CARDS. If it isn't illegal, and it doesn't violate a published house rule...

Seriously now, is adding that explicit statement really too difficult for casino management?

Yes. It's distasteful and bad business. It is a published house rule, certainly on the surveillance reports and watch lists, which are NOT distributed to the players like promo chips and free-play tickets. You want a copy? - Get a job in surveillance.

So then, it is not explicit, but it is indeed common knowledge and practice, and does indeed happen; it is discretionary in practice, obviously. Back offs are practiced on an "as caught and handled" individual basis between surveillance and pit crews. For that matter, some drunks and abusive players are more tolerated than others.
Pit management decides if an action is or is not necessary.

Quote: buzzpaff

Dan is like the moth drawn to the flame. You are winning, therefore you must be cheating.

No, not at all. I love winners who win cleanly, have no problm with that - zero.
I don't love APs, belligerent drunks and shot-takers, also part of the landscape, but so what?

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. It's distasteful and bad business. It is a published house rule, certainly on the surveillance reports and watch lists, which are NOT distributed to the players like promo chips and free-play tickets. You want a copy? - Get a job in surveillance.

So then, it is not explicit, but it is indeed common knowledge and practice, and does indeed happen; it is discretionary in practice, obviously. Back offs are practiced on an "as caught and handled" individual basis between surveillance and pit crews. For that matter, some drunks and abusive players are more tolerated than others.
Pit management decides if an action is or is not necessary.


No, not at all. I love winners who win cleanly, have no problm with that - zero.
I don't love APs, belligerent drunks and shot-takers, also part of the landscape, but so what?

There he goes again. No rules I am allowed to see, but since I use my brain and count I do not win cleanly !

What the hell is wrong with you people? It seems pretty clear to me what is going on here, and you can talk circles around each other all day and not make any progress, or just drop the whole thing.

1) We can all agree card counting is not illegal by any government code.
2) Dan is saying card counting is against the UNWRITTEN house rules of the casino, and hence they are within their right to show you the door for such activity.
3) buzzpaff is intent on arguing that they shouldn't be able to do this since the rule isn't written down.

Listen, I'm a card counter and I fully agree with Dan's point of view. We all know it's against the house rules and we do it anyway. What's the point in arguing nomenclature? It's private property. If they don't like your action, out the door you go. Simple as that, take it or leave it. If you want to count cards, go nuts and know all the caveats.

I don't see the point of continuing this argument, but then again I didn't start it...

" 3) buzzpaff is intent on arguing that they shouldn't be able to do this since the rule isn't written down."

Perhaps I am not expressing myself properly. The casino has every right to do this. But do NOT accuse me of CHEATING or
violating any WRITTEN rules. That all.

When you get 86-ed from a casino and end up in the parking lot, you're not using your brain.
When you are effectively using your brain, you have a better shot to get exactly the results you wanted.

Quote: Paigowdan

When you get 86-ed from a casino and end up in the parking lot, you're not using your brain.
When you are effectively using your brain, you have a better shot to get exactly the results you wanted.

Perhaps I am not expressing myself properly. The casino has every right to do this. But do NOT accuse me of CHEATING or
violating any WRITTEN rules. That all. Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge ???

Quote: buzzpaff

" 3) buzzpaff is intent on arguing that they shouldn't be able to do this since the rule isn't written down."

Perhaps I am not expressing myself properly. The casino has every right to do this. But do NOT accuse me of CHEATING or
violating any WRITTEN rules. That all.

I apologize for mis-stating your intentions - I will try to stay out of it from here on out. In any case I still feel like it's a fruitless discussion.

Paigowdan, I appreciate your hanging around here even with all of the abuse you get from those of us on the other side of the table. It's cool to have your perspective, along with Face's, on stuff like this when a lot (most?) of us don't know any casino personnel.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I apologize for mis-stating your intentions - I will try to stay out of it from here on out. In any case I still feel like it's a fruitless discussion.

Paigowdan, I appreciate your hanging around here even with all of the abuse you get from those of us on the other side of the table. It's cool to have your perspective, along with Face's, on stuff like this when a lot (most?) of us don't know any casino personnel.

Damn Now I have to admit I'll miss Dan too when he sails off into the Sunset with EZ Pai Gow providing a steady money stream .

Quote: AcesAndEights

What the hell is wrong with you people? It seems pretty clear to me what is going on here, and you can talk circles around each other all day and not make any progress, or just drop the whole thing.

1) We can all agree card counting is not illegal by any government code.
2) Dan is saying card counting is against the UNWRITTEN house rules of the casino, and hence they are within their right to show you the door for such activity.
3) buzzpaff is intent on arguing that they shouldn't be able to do this since the rule isn't written down.

Listen, I'm a card counter and I fully agree with Dan's point of view. We all know it's against the house rules and we do it anyway. What's the point in arguing nomenclature? It's private property. If they don't like your action, out the door you go. Simple as that, take it or leave it. If you want to count cards, go nuts and know all the caveats.

I don't see the point of continuing this argument, but then again I didn't start it...

Thank you....finally.

I have to say, I agree with both dan and buzzpaff. I'm not sure how doing math in your head could be called cheating. I also agree that a private casino can do whatever the hell they want - including calling anyone they want a cheater. As dan said, why would you care if they call you a cheater. Plus, doesn't that make it more fun? The reason I threw crab apples at cars in 8th grade was for the chase. The reason I knocked on doors and ran in 4rth grade was for the chase. The reason toilet papered houses in high school was for the....well that was cuz i was crushin' on some chicks.

Quote: buzzpaff

Just because someone views me as a cheater does not make me a cheater.

What Dan does at all costs is avoid saying what
the casino really hates isn't counting, its WINNING.
Many casinos will tolerate counters who
lose, which is most of them. What they loathe is
winners, who come back and do it again and again.
So they call them cheats, because the truth exposes
what the casino really is.

Quote: slackyhacky

I'm not sure how doing math in your head could be called cheating. I also agree that a private casino can do whatever the hell they want...

Actually, in Common Law countries only. Civil Law tends to differ on the matter.

Of course no law can keep a casino from setting its table limits at $10-$50, $25-$100 and $100-$500, like how you don't have the option to bet $100 a spin on nickel slots.

Quote: buzzpaff

The casino has every right to do this. But do NOT accuse me of CHEATING

Would you feel any better if the casino called you a "violator" or a "rules breaker"?

Quote: buzzpaft

or violating any WRITTEN rules.

If you think that the casino's internal policies should be written and released to the public, start a lawsuit or put together a group action and go to court to try to compel that.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Would you feel any better if the casino called you a "violator" or a "rules breaker"?

The dictionary definition of cheater is: "A person
who acts dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.
To deprive by trickery; defraud. To swindle."

None of these describe a card counter and the NV
Supreme Court has said as much. So yes, rules
breaker is fine, cheater is not.

Quote: EvenBob

The dictionary definition of cheater is: "A person
who acts dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.
To deprive by trickery; defraud. To swindle."

None of these describe a card counter and the NV
Supreme Court has said as much. So yes, rules
breaker is fine, cheater is not.

We're not talking "in the eyes of The Supreme Court" or in
"The Eyes of The Constitution of THE GREAT UNITED STATES OF AMERIKA."

We're talking about how card counters are viewed in the eyes of the casino pit boss who's showing them the door. They feel you're cheating, they feel you're taking advantage, they feel like it's taking a gallon-sized tupperware tub to the Buffet for some extra take-home, what do you care what's in their heads about you that you insist on taking personally?
This is different. This is just business.

And yes, card counting is trickery or defrauding in his eyes and in surveillance's eyes, which are the eyes that count. Not yours.
Your opinion and feelings, as meaningful as they are to you, along with a $1.75, will get you a cup of coffee and a stale doughnut at a 7-11. Because you ain't getting comped the Steakhouse for card counting play.

You can resent it, or get over it. You can wail all you want to the security guard about "Where does it SAY [waah!] - WHERE IS IT WRITTEN [waah!] in the Constitution of The United States of America..." - when it written on his lips as he is saying to you, "Buddy, you are done for the night. Get over it."

Quote: Paigowdan

We're talking about how card counters are viewed in the eyes of the casino pit boss

Now we're getting somewhere. So a counter, or
any AP, isn't really 'cheating', under any definition
we know of as cheating. He's walking away with
money a casino wrongfully considers as 'theirs',
even though it was won fairly and squarely. Thats
a rather skewed view of reality, Dan. Do you really
endorse that way of thinking?

I've read about burglers who firmly believe that if
they successfully break into your house, everything
in it now belongs to them. I mean, they really
believe that, and if you try and stop them, you're
breaking their 'rules' and deserve whatever you get
for stopping them. I've heard car thieves say if you
leave your doors unlocked, its an unspoken invitation
to have your car stolen, its in their 'rules'.

Quote: EvenBob

Now we're getting somewhere. So a counter, or
any AP, isn't really 'cheating', under any definition
we know of as cheating.

No, it's fully biased and based on point-of-view, based on your particular "side" - AP or casino mgt.
What's good for the casino isn't always good for the AP, and what's good for the AP isn't always good for the casino. So the two seldom meet, so what? If a pit boss views a card counter as a cheater - and he very well may indeed - what do you care if someone puts a label on you in his mind. You'd be a moron to worry in your own head about what's in other people's heads. If you're gonna be a true AP, you've got to say "#$%^ what they think, this is business, a game of numbers - instead of cry about it.
If every BJ table hand 50% or less penetration and strictly-enforced flat bet requirements, - would you feel that's cheating? A casino can declare deck penetration and table limits as they damn well see fit, - only to knock out all AP's.
A tourist wouldn't care less and wouldn't cry about it, or even notice, now, not noticing penetration or varying from his flat bet amount.

Quote: EvenBob

He's walking away with
money a casino wrongfully considers as 'theirs',
even though it was won fairly and squarely.

No, it wasn't, it was money "nefariously gotten away with," - and that's different. What then, you'd be a fool to care, if you score it without getting caught, eh? So don't complain if you can't get away with it, either.
Again, POV that you care too much about..

Quote: EvenBob

Thats
a rather skewed view of reality, Dan. Do you really
endorse that way of thinking?

Sure. if it's against the house rules, - and we do know the ground rules at this point, now - then it's just wrong, IMO. You view playing by the rules as warped thinking, now THAT's what is warped.

Quote: EvenBob

I've read about burglers who firmly believe that if
they successfully break into your house, everything
in it now belongs to them. I mean, they really
believe that, and if you try and stop them, you're
breaking their 'rules' and deserve whatever you get
for stopping them. I've heard car thieves say if you
leave your doors unlocked, its an unspoken invitation
to have your car stolen, its in their 'rules'.

There you go, you see this thinking now? "If I can get away with it, then it makes it rightfully mine, - right?"
I suppose the car thief who hotwires a mobster's car, only to find a 'hit squad' bomb be triggered on start-up, would also say, as a ghost, "Yeah - that's rightfully mine, too!"
if a burglar thinks what's in the house is rightfully his, then he has also got to consider the 00 buckshot blown into his neck and torso by the homeowner just as much "rightfully his." Live by the sword? don't complain about consequences.

Quote: Paigowdan

We're talking about how card counters are viewed in the eyes of the casino pit boss who's showing them the door.

That's exactly why APs today are - and rightly so - moving away from counting, too visible and too demonized, and into hole-carding and more advanced forms of play that pit bosses aren't as wary of.

That's why people who aren't even APs will keep cheering them on their wins, because "we are right in doing anything we want" attitude only prompts "we are right in doing anything we can get away with" response.

A Robbin' hood and all that glorious jazz.
It's a cat & mouse game of great sorts.
Hole carding? Shufflemaster invents the flush mounted I-deal response. California Casino inserts a bottom cut card before the dealer's 3CP hand packet is removed from the dispenser.
Get arrested for casino fraud? Tell the judge in this town that you're a righteous dude, like Ferris Beuller, a robin hood.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it wasn't, it was money "nefariously gotten away with,"

Nefarious means 'wicked or evil. Dark, immoral.'
Counting is none of those, Dan. Its simply a superior
way to play BJ, nothing more. The casino is like
a typical poor loser, they call the winner names
and besmirch his character, all because he won
fair and square. You probably think we beat this
thing to death, but thats because you're on the
inside, nobody is calling you a cheater. AP's are
not cheating, just because the casino says it doesn't
make it so. If you don't like the play, discontinue
the game, but don't call the people who are
smart enough to win crooks.

Quote: Paigowdan

A Robbin' hood and all that glorious jazz.

Robin Hood wouldn't be half as glorious without the Sheriff of Nottingham.

By deliberately positioning yourself as an antagonist and flaunting a "with us or against us" attitude, you are feeding Robin Hood's popular support base.

deleted

Quote: EvenBob

Nefarious means 'wicked or evil. Dark, immoral.'
Counting is none of those, Dan. Its simply a superior
way to play BJ, nothing more. The casino is like
a typical poor loser, they call the winner names
and besmirch his character, all because he won
fair and square. You probably think we beat this
thing to death, but thats because you're on the
inside, nobody is calling you a cheater. AP's are
not cheating, just because the casino says it doesn't
make it so. If you don't like the play, discontinue
the game, but don't call the people who are
smart enough to win crooks.

Well said !

Quote: Paigowdan

If every BJ table hand 50% or less penetration and strictly-enforced flat bet requirements, - would you feel that's cheating? A casino can declare deck penetration and table limits as they damn well see fit, - only to knock out all AP's.

Yes, you can. Also, it has to be pointed out that you only need or, not and - any one will do the trick. No, that would not be cheating, not any more than offering a non-countable game like Baccarat is.

So go ahead. If nefarious counters keep nefariously cleaning out your joints, playing a game you are offering, the way you are offering it, the solution is to change your offer so that it isn't beatable. Place the cut card closer, install a CSM, enforce flat-betting or just limit the spread to 4x-5x within any given shoe, which is enough to zero a counter's EV while not affecting a casual player - but you don't have to treat honest players, successful at playing a game you are offering, like cheaters.

[doublepost]

Quote: SanchoPanza

Would you feel any better if the casino called you a "violator" or a "rules breaker"?

If you think that the casino's internal policies should be written and released to the public, start a lawsuit or put together a group action and go to court to try to compel that.

I think the problem here started when Dan chose to say "house rule" in reference to what counters would be violating. House rules really do have to be disclosed to the players. In writing. By law.

Quote: P90

Yes, you can. Also, it has to be pointed out that you only need or, not and - any one will do the trick. No, that would not be cheating, not any more than offering a non-countable game like Baccarat is.

So go ahead. If nefarious counters keep nefariously cleaning out your joints, playing a game you are offering, the way you are offering it, the solution is to change your offer so that it isn't beatable. Place the cut card closer, install a CSM, enforce flat-betting or just limit the spread to 4x-5x within any given shoe, which is enough to zero a counter's EV while not affecting a casual player - but you don't have to treat honest players, successful at playing a game you are offering, like cheaters.

1. All of the various solutions are used, and they have stopped all the joints from being cleaned out. And they work: CSMs, flat-betting mild counters, 86-ing aggressive counters, penetration reduction, all are used when needed, all get the job done. Gripes about it only come from APs who resent having their little AP ploys shut down, pure sour grapes, little sympathy from table games workers. Pit boss and shift managers make the call, fine with me. Game protection counter measures get put in place, and 'x' percentage of the population says "drats! Foiled again! My hopes and dreams were dashed! Oh, the horrors!" What are casino supervisors and dealers going to say? "I feel your pain?" "Cry me a River?" "Go play Roulette..." It's the AP who says when backed off: "Fine, I'm outta here, good night fellas" is the one who lives best, to fight another day in this cat and mouse game...Bad enough from your POV you get backed off; if you resent it then you'll be giving yourself some additional punishment, long after being 86-ed, so why worry about it or defend it?
2. We don't treat honest players like cheaters. We treat honest players like honest players, cheaters like cheaters, and APs like APs. People win clean money, we are happy for them, we really are, we like to see that. A Royal? Good for you. Hit a number straight up on Roulette? Great! Trips on Three Card? How wonderful.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. We don't treat honest players like cheaters. We treat honest players like honest players, cheaters like cheaters, and APs like APs. People win clean money, we are happy for them, we really are, we like to see that. A Royal? Good for you. Hit a number straight up on Roulette? Great! Trips on Three Card? How wonderful.

Can't help but notice that you don't even acknowledge that it's possible for a player to legitimately win at BJ...

Quote: rdw4potus

I think the problem here started when Dan chose to say "house rule" in reference to what counters would be violating. House rules really do have to be disclosed to the players. In writing. By law.

Really now....Pit boss and surveillance make a call on an AP player, he gets backed off, done for the night. They made a call, and you're out of there. No receipt, no eight-by-ten color glossies, no nothing. He goes to the police, and says: "I DEMAND you arrest the pit boss at Johnny's Casino, - right now!!! Why, they didn't even give a copy of their HOUSE WAY!"
What do you think would happen in Vegas? Or in Macau, China? Or Anywhere. Cops tell you, "go file a complaint with gaming. Good luck."

Quote: Paigowdan

We're talking about how card counters are viewed in the eyes of the casino pit boss who's showing them the door. They feel you're cheating, they feel you're taking advantage, they feel like it's taking a gallon-sized tupperware tub to the Buffet for some extra take-home, what do you care what's in their heads about you that you insist on taking personally?

It doesn't matter if a pit boss feels that a card counter is cheating. Cheating is defined by statute and, in reference to EvenBob's quote, that definition has nothing to do with the dictionary definition. That doesn't stop the pit boss from tossing a counter out for whatever reason, including that they may be "cheating in the eyes of the pit boss", that they're abusing staff, or that they just look shifty. But insofar as "cheating in the eyes of the pit boss" is different than "cheating in the eyes of the State of Nevada", there is no actual wrongdoing involved. To be clear: counting cards is not cheating according to even the most liberal interpretation of the Nevada statutes.

Consider a hypothetical person with super-human intelligence. Actually, there was a short-lived show on ABC called "No Ordinary Family" about such a person -- the son in the family had the ability to visualize complex physics and intuitively solve large mathematical problems. Suppose for the sake of argument that he were in a casino and able intuitively to know not just the count of a blackjack shoe, but exactly what the EV was (positive or negative, and by how much), and could therefore use that information for perfect Kelly betting. And further suppose that he could visualize the landing zone of the roulette ball within 4 numbers. If he went to the casino and cleaned up, would he be cheating? No. The pit bosses may very well ban him from playing, and they may hate the fact that he can, with his own mind, beat games that mere mortals cannot -- but use of one's own super-human intelligence isn't cheating. Use of a device is, which is why duplicating such super-human intelligence in a concealed computer (e.g. an iPhone card counting or wheel clocking app) is felony cheating.

If anything, the casino countermeasure of preferential shuffling on player-favorable counts is more likely to fall under the statutory definition of "cheating" than varying ones bet based on an understanding of the contents of the remainder of the deck. But to my knowledge that theory hasn't been tested in court.

Quote: rdw4potus

Can't help but notice that you don't even acknowledge that it's possible for a player to legitimately win at BJ...

Oh, yes I do. I've seen CSM tables dump on Black action. Tourists winning it, obviously not APs, playing on a CSM, too. Comp them RFB.

Quote: Paigowdan

Really now....Pit boss and surveillance make a call on an AP player, he gets backed off, done for the night. They made a call, and you're out of there. No receipt, no eight-by-ten color glossies, no nothing. He goes to the police, and says: "I DEMAND you arrest the pit boss at Johnny's Casino, - right now!!! Why, they didn't even give a copy of their HOUSE WAY!"
What do you think would happen in Vegas? Or in Macau, China? Or Anywhere. Cops tell you, "go file a complaint with gaming. Good luck."

You're right. Gaming would blow it off, so it's OK. My bad.

Quote: MathExtremist

It doesn't matter if a pit boss feels that a card counter is cheating. Cheating is defined by statute and, in reference to EvenBob's quote, that definition has nothing to do with the dictionary definition. That doesn't stop the pit boss from tossing a counter out for whatever reason, including that they may be "cheating in the eyes of the pit boss", that they're abusing staff, or that they just look shifty. But insofar as "cheating in the eyes of the pit boss" is different than "cheating in the eyes of the State of Nevada", there is no actual wrongdoing involved. To be clear: counting cards is not cheating according to even the most liberal interpretation of the Nevada statutes.

Consider a hypothetical person with super-human intelligence. Actually, there was a short-lived show on ABC called "No Ordinary Family" about such a person -- the son in the family had the ability to visualize complex physics and intuitively solve large mathematical problems. Suppose for the sake of argument that he were in a casino and able intuitively to know not just the count of a blackjack shoe, but exactly what the EV was (positive or negative, and by how much), and could therefore use that information for perfect Kelly betting. And further suppose that he could visualize the landing zone of the roulette ball within 4 numbers. If he went to the casino and cleaned up, would he be cheating? No. The pit bosses may very well ban him from playing, and they may hate the fact that he can, with his own mind, beat games that mere mortals cannot -- but use of one's own super-human intelligence isn't cheating. Use of a device is, which is why duplicating such super-human intelligence in a concealed computer (e.g. an iPhone card counting or wheel clocking app) is felony cheating.

If anything, the casino countermeasure of preferential shuffling on player-favorable counts is more likely to fall under the statutory definition of "cheating" than varying ones bet based on an understanding of the contents of the remainder of the deck. But to my knowledge that theory hasn't been tested in court.

Stacy, card counting isn't super-human skill we're talking about here. It is a fairly easy skill and ploy considered to be in "bad faith, "cheating," "improper play," "a reason for a back off," and the like by the human beings who have to watch and account for the action that goes on in the table games pit. And I am just against preferential shuffling as I am any Ap play, for that matter, I really am. Either it's clean or not, there is no such thing as "a little bit kosher." It doesn't matter which way the money is dirty, it matters if it is dirty!!! Pit bosses are not legal scholars, they look for Advantage play, and then back them off using the guidelines issued by the corporate law department of their casino operator. That's it. This is because blackjack - for the longest time until Ed Thorpe - was considered to be uncountable, until he proved otherwise. By then the game was entrenched and intractable.

The "good faith" non-counting approach that is required to successfully (and profitably) run the game - by the casino operator's POV - who is offering the game in the first place - was done by disallowing or backing off "bad faith" card counters. And it's still done to this day. Doesn't matter what the pit boss thinks of you (as you'd be a moron to really care, or to spout off, "where is it legally written in the Holy Scolls of gambling that..." really!...). It matters that he runs the pit as he is charged to do so, and that you abide by his call, as he runs the pit, - and not Mr. Off-the-street card counter. So what if some middle-aged pit boss thinks you're a dirtbag of sorts, trying to grab some easy money; and he will look at some APs like they're hungry trolls with ready-to-go tupperware at the Buffet, like chazzers.
Who cares, as we are talking about hurt feelings over casino pit business calls being made here.
You're 86-ed, but you'd be a fool to have hopes and dreams of the old glory days of the great card counters, instead of getting a real job and a real life.
If there is ANY dissonance within you about some sort of a "constitutional human right" to take shots at a casino or gambling hall operation, you've got issues. Indeed, sometimes I worry that I got issues being a dice dealer and gambling game designer, - involved with debates about gambling here, when not at work! - instead of being an engineer, a book editor at a publishing company, or something like that. Anway....

But let's say there is other than an Amazing Kreskin type super-computer genius hitting the tables.

Let's say Harry Potter and his crew hit the Bellagio. A Hogwarts' fundraiser of sorts.
They buy in for $500 each. They bet the table max on the Yo and the rest on the pass line.
Harry says...
Alla ka-ZAM,
Alla ka-ZOA,
let me throw...
a FREAKIN' YO!"

- then [poof!] - rolls an 11.
After a couple of rounds of this, the pit boss bars the crew from playing. Says, "Go see a movie, fellas..."
Did he call them cheaters? No.
Is there a rational explanation for this? No.
Is the pit boss spooked by this? Hell, yes....
Is the decision binding? yes.
Should you cry about the call? No...