Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000
As well, it puts the industry on notice on a cheating phenomenon that may have bilked a number of other casinos out of money. The scheme fooled Wynn, for a month, and the eye in the sky probably didn't notice for a while that it was even going on.
It seems like this was more of a long term conspiracy rather than a simple cheat scheme. The lawsuit mentions that there were other customers who were designed to distract the personnel, responsible for calling "no-roll". Sliding probably only occurred on a few percentage of the accused rolls. It was the partner who was placing bets, not the bettor. So, a few things probably happened here:
(1) Tips were in place to ensure that the dealers took a cut of the winnings and to bypass a possible "no-roll" call.
(2) Distractors were in place perhaps to block the launch of the roll or to distract the box/stick during the roll, perhaps a post-bet or some other distraction.
(3) The sliding only occurred on the rolls where the bet meant something, not to the shooter, but to the winner.
(4) It probably took Wynn security a while to figure out who the team was - others are still unidentifiable.
Still, absolutely, i agree, once a roll is called as such, (1), (2), and (3) shouldn't matter. It's the crew's responsibility to maintain the integrity of the game, no matter what happens.
Quote: boymimboLike any large company, before a lawsuit is filed, a risk analysis is completed to see what the likelihood of winning would be. After reviewing all of the evidence that Wynn had over the period of a month, and given the successful arrest of the two accused, it seems like the probability of getting their money back would be good, worth a legal battle over.
I think that the lawsuit is motivated by vindictiveness, and the Wynn attorneys may not know about dice setters, and thus not foresee the "selective prosecution" argument the defense is likely to raise.
I'm willing to bet that the Wynn loses.
Quote: kpSo a slot technician who changes the hold percentage on a slot machine is cheating?
The hold cannot be changed without the permission, and I believe the supervision, of a rep from the Gaming Commission. this prevents casinos from switching chips.
There is a different rule with server controlled slots, and I am not familiar with those rules, but I think it says that the hold for any game cannot be changed, but that games themselves are allowed to be changed. in other words, if the game "cherry pin ball has a payback of 87% at the 25-cent level" it can be switched to a "cherry pinball with a payback of 92% at the $1 level" but the payback of the $1 game cannot be switched using the server.
Wizard: a key to this whole thing is about the dealers who were reportedly "fired." Were they duped, were they unskilled in identifying sliding, or were they in on it? If they were in on it, then the Wynn case is very strong because if one of the dealers confesses to the scam then there is little the defense could do.
if the dealers were not in on it, and they just didn't do their jobs well, the defense will probably claim that the casino failed to call "no rolls." and what strengthens the defense is that this was 7 rolls over a period of time. typical shooter in any craps game throws the dice an average of five times per hand.
Average roll takes 20 seconds. That means in an hour there can be 180 rolls (3 per minute X 60 minutes), or 720 rolls in four hours.
If the shooters in the case were at a table with six total players, they could have had 120 rolls each per day of four hours of play. After 20 days of play thats 2400 rolls.
Being questioned are 7 out of 2400 rolls or less than one-third of one percent.
Without someone from the crew claiming they were in on a scheme and admitting to these exact seven slides, it would seem to me that "lucky" slides for less than one-third of one percent of the shooter's hand doesn't quite smell of anything more than chance. At least thats the way the defense can play it.
Im not much of a math guy, but that's the way I look at the legal issue.
Quote: kpSo a slot technician who changes the hold percentage on a slot machine is cheating?
No. Depends on how it is effected and the change approved.
Changing the house edge percentage via payout table modification on a game is not cheating.
Some casinos use 98% payout, some use 99% payout, etc.
Changing from "9/7" to "9/6" or "8/5" payout tables on Jacks or Better is not cheating.
For table games, paying "6/4" to "6/3" on the straight and flush payouts on the Pair Plus tables.
What is covered is not "rigging" the natural frequency of hands during the electronic shuffle and deal process on Video Poker, of rigging the card shuffler/reader/dispenser machines to stack the decks on an I-deal machine.
You just reminded me of Arlo Guthrie's song "Alice's Restaurant Massacree" and the prosecutor with the "twenty-seven 8x10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one" who was shocked and disappointed as the judge entered with his seeing eye dog.Quote: buzzpaffBut Lady Justice is blindfolded, so she will not see the dice roll!
Ah! I see an opportunity for some bookmaking!Quote: WizardI'm willing to bet that the Wynn loses.
Quote: MathExtremist
NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
....
Quote: boymimboThere is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw...
Quote: PaigowdanSliding the dice is covered by the very same NRS regulation that you quoted in black and white, right above you not seeing it covered by NRS 465.015 - to alter the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game. Sliding the dice alter the elements of chance which determine the results of a game.
Quote: MathExtremistUnder this interpretation, if sliding is altering the elements of chance, so is precision throwing. If precision throwing is a crime, so is attempting a precision throw: NRS 465.088 imposes equal punishments for cheating and attempted cheating. Therefore, everyone who sets the dice and tries to influence the outcome is guilty of a category B felony.
That cannot be the correct interpretation. Whatever sliding is, its interpretation must be consistent with the fact that it is a settled expectation that the player may manipulate the dice prior to throwing them, and may throw them in a wide variety of manners.
Stacy, Dice sliding is viewed very differently from dice setting on crap tables.
Dice sliding prevents tumbling, as one axis (the vertical axis) of each die does not rotate; the top and bottom faces of each die remain parallel to the table felt as they slide down the table, essentially keeping the same "face up" starting number setting as the dice slide along the table.
In Dice setting, you start your dice throw with a specific "dice number" orientation - but throw them in the air so that the dice DO tumble upon landing, thereby re-randomizing the dice, - although you'd like there to be a minimum amount of tumbling.
Edit: persoanlly, I like Alan M.'s recommendation/discussion/observation of using a small rod under the felt to force sliding dice to tumble. A small metal rod placed under the felt between the center prop area's "C&E" bet locations and the base dealers' areas would be discreet, effective, and force sliding dice to tumble. Something in size and shape like a rifle cleaning rod, long and narrow, under the felt in this location.
And Remember fellows, if the house does something to STOP cheating or excessive Advantage Play, it doesn't mean or make it that "the house is then cheating." It means that the players are not/cannot be cheating. For example, by using the new table-mounted I-deal shuffler machines (instead of the old 'high-rider' machines) where the bottom card of hands cannot be seen, this stops hold carding on Three-card poker, while allowing the game to proceed normally and safely.
It's just good game protection solutions.
It's hard for me to believe that the coefficient of friction is low enough to allow dice to slide across felt without tumbling. A freshly resurfaced ice rink, glass or a slick counter top, sure, but felt?
Some of the new design of felts are more glossy than fuzzy, which is fine for card games. And old worn felts get a sheen to them.
Quote: AlanCaveat..I didn't read all the pages of this thread.
It's hard for me to believe that the coefficient of friction is low enough to allow dice to slide across felt without tumbling. A freshly resurfaced ice rink, glass or a slick counter top, sure, but felt?
Indeed it is not easy, but it can be done when the dice are near the end of their "shift" when the corners are worn and the sharp edges are gone. This is one reason why dice are replaced several times a day.
Table layouts also get worn and the more "flat" the easier to slide.
I did some slides on a home mini table table. First time I ever tried. Used a new stick of dice from a Vegas casino, and had no trouble doing it. Of course there wasnt a crew there to call a "no roll."
YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPkgvNV_IuE
I'm willing to bet that the Wynn loses.
Double or nothing. Even willing to break it into two sets if you lose. I assume the trial will be in Nevada ??
Never ever bet against the house for big money in Nevada !
Quote: buzzpaffQuote: Wizard
I'm willing to bet that the Wynn loses.
Double or nothing. Even willing to break it into two sets if you lose. I assume the trial will be in Nevada ??
Never ever bet against the house for big money in Nevada !
Two words: "BOB NERSESIAN!"
Quote: PaigowdanIf you don't know why you're getting trespassed or arrested out of a casino, you're basically a clueless moron who should listen to your Legal Aid lawyer.
That simple.
By by the Rules and You Are Fine. :)
Oh, bullshit. I've been marched out of a major Las Vegas casino and later trespassed when I was doing nothing more than playing video poker, absolutely nothing unusual about my actions either then or beforehand, and they refused to tell me why and I still don't know. A friend of mine was trespassed at the same place two hours into a video poker session, was completely bewildered by it, and eventually after numerous phone calls was told it was because "you only play the promotion days". That was his fourth time there, of which two were on promotion days. And anyway, like that's breaking any kind of rule, or worthy of threatening criminal charges if he shows up on-property. Another acquaintance of mine sat down at a bar to play video poker at a medium-size near-Strip casino and had security descend and trespass him without explanation. Several phone calls later he got told that it was because he got drunk and made a scene the previous night. He wasn't there the previous night, and he never drinks, but I guess the guy on the tapes looked like him.
Quote:the house rules are written on my lips if you don't know the rules. Don't slide the dice
Great! We agree that it's the dealer or floorman's responsibility to state the rules. Personally I've played craps maybe three times in my life, and tossed the dice off the table maybe a half-dozen times. My knowledge of rules on how to shoot is limited to "don't use both hands", because the first time I picked up the dice I used both hands and got immediately barked at, which I appreciate. I did not get arrested, which I also appreciate. However, if it weren't for this discussion, I would have no idea that it's OK to try and control the dice by superstition - it's OK to try to control the dice by throwing harder or softer - it's OK to try to control the dice by setting them - it's OK to try to control the dice by avoiding having them tumble off-axis - but trying to control the dice by avoiding having them tumble at all is not only against the rules but CLEARLY a felony even if they tolerate you doing it the first dozen times, as in the current case.
I've often participated in promotions that involve a prize wheel. The casino's intent is for a random prize to come up. I will often spin carefully to try to get my desired prize to come up. Is that "altering the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game" and thus a felony? I've never heard anyone suggest such an idea before.
Quote: fivespotOh, bullshit. I've been marched out of a major Las Vegas casino and later trespassed when I was doing nothing more than playing video poker, absolutely nothing unusual about my actions either then or beforehand, and they refused to tell me why and I still don't know.
Casinos operate much like the Nazi's did. Bust
into your house at 3am, interrogate you, throw
you into a prison camp, and never tell you why.
Its paranoia run amok. Dan says 'Oh, you know
why', you cheater, you. But if you don't, they
refuse to clue you in because they're terrified
of a lawsuit. The casinos position is, throw you
out now, trespass you, and worry about the
consequences later. These people weren't hired
for their IQ's, you know..
Quote: fivespotOh, bullshit. I've been marched out of a major Las Vegas casino and later trespassed when I was doing nothing more than playing video poker, absolutely nothing unusual about my actions either then or beforehand, and they refused to tell me why and I still don't know.
I agree there are sometimes terrible mistakes made (mistaken identity, 86-ing people for playing on promo days), but by and large, most good players don't get hassled at all. Comparing casinos to Nazi's of the Third Reich is just way out there.
What's the name of that "law" that says something like "any internet argument that goes on long enough will include one side/person being compared to Hitler"? I'm sure someone here can give the proper quote and name of the "law."Quote: PaigowdanComparing casinos to Nazi's of the Third Reich is just way out there.
Do I get 86d?
Quote: fivespotAnother acquaintance of mine sat down at a bar to play video poker at a medium-size near-Strip casino and had security descend and trespass him without explanation. Several phone calls later he got told that it was because he got drunk and made a scene the previous night. He wasn't there the previous night, and he never drinks, but I guess the guy on the tapes looked like him.
>Sat down at a bar to play video poker ...
So all he really wanted was the seat, not a drink?
I'll admit, playing on promo days is perhaps a problem. I've mentioned before about Radio Shack giving away free flashlights in order to sell batteries and then six months later giving away free batteries to sell flashlights. Sometimes they find customers who take both freebies and purchase neither item. I don't think Radio Shack 86'd them, though. If a casino says a certain day is a slot multiplier day then so be it.
Machine hoggers can have their comp accounts run backwards.
Note: I've always assumed these "slides" were accompanied by distracting "blockers" and other moves. If instead the slides were open and notorious the burden shifts to the casino under the theory that if they want to call "no roll" they can't take all day to think about it and then try to waltz into court to do it. They are the professionals who are supposed to know what a proper roll looks like. An umpire may or may not have electronics available to him, but he doesn't have all day. A BoxMan doesn't have all day either and the most he has available is a call to have surveillance view the tape. I don't think a boxman should be able to wait a few months and then take the stand in a court room. The light is either Red, Green or Yellow. The box is paid to know and to announce it openly rather than conduct some internal debate with himself and then sue months later.
The pretty girl wearing the "Challenge Accepted" tee-shirt depicting an outline of a traffic signal with the yellow light illuminated is welcome at the craps table as a player. The casino likes her money and doesn't care what her driving skills are like. The other players welcome her presence for a different reason, but they welcome her as a player, not as one of the crew. If she can't call the roll promptly and accurately she is not welcome, no matter how attractive she is and no matter how humorous her tee-shirt is. The dice crew have to make their determination then, not later.
Quote: PaigowdanComparing casinos to Nazi's of the Third Reich is just way out there.
But casinos are run just like a fascist country. They
have secret rules only they know about, and if you
violate them you get tossed out without warning,
and they won't even tell you why. If you break the
rules in a fascist country, or even are suspected of
breaking them, you can spend years in jail without
even knowing the reason. Whats the difference.
Quote: EvenBobBut casinos are run just like a fascist country. They
have secret rules only they know about, and if you
violate them you get tossed out without warning,
and they won't even tell you why.
Are you talking about casinos, or a church?
Yes, it's a fine line between casinos and churches.
Dan never did explain why a casino is allowed to
permanently ban you, trespass you, and escort you
off the property, without ever telling you why. His
only explanation was, when you get banned you 'know'
why. Heck, Dan, even the cops tell you why you're
being arrested, or why they're hassling you. Casinos
tell you nothing. Doesn't this seem a little 'odd'?
Quote: PaigowdanNo it isn't.
AP's who play by the house rules and laws are fine with us. Set a Pai Gow hand in a brilliant way, and I'll pay you cash right out of the rack.
But hole-carders or Card counters go to Roulette or go home or to jail in some cirsumstances.
"Sorry - and thanks for playing. Love you, but go to Roulette." Then THEY get nasty when backed off, which is the most polite action.
Dice sliders and bet cappers get worse.
It's unreal.
Gamblers walk into a casino honestly thinking they can do or say anything like, talk to the most polite and veteran dealers like they're absolute dog sh]t thinking they can get them fired for calling a seven-out without giving a damn, only to get outraged when told that their behaviour is out-of-bounds (truly lacking in home training for lack of a better description).
When getting arrested and cuffed by Henderson PD (Police Department), they will honestly say either (happened twice in a month here, forget about the Wynn):
1. "But...I don't want to get arrested" (crying, and finally waking up...) OR
2. "Hey! You're supposed to provide customer service! This is not customer service!"
While in handcuffs at a casino's rear entrance for police pick-up.
Spending a night or a week in an urban jail/detention center like Riker's Island (NY) or CCCF (Las Vegas) is a lot rougher than being told "okay, you're done for the night."
The urban Criminal Detention Center is now the back rooming you'll get as a casino cheat, and in order to end up there, you have to reasonably be considered a dirtbag in the eyes of the Police and society, - screw the floorman's opinion - or anyone here at this forum. Some time in a cage with a town of savages looking at your butt, it doesn't matter what the $7 an hour dealer of the $120 a day floorman thinks.
Surveillance tape played to the judge and jury is tough to argue.
Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules, and that's a lot - but a lot of the casino cheating crap that gamblers justify with a straight face - at least at this forum - is illegal.
Get backed off a game - and be fine with it.
But an arrest or a civil lawsuit is something.
A week in a municipal jail and a criminal record for life really sucks. So does a $700,000 lawsuit from Steve Wynn.
Expect pity from burnt-out dealers, floormen, or policemen who honestly don't look at casino cheating as some sort of a "valid and non-dirtbag activity?"
Not going to happen, except on an Internet forum in cyberspace.
Not in a real casino pit.
+1
Quote: EvenBobMy gosh this was an exciting thread. And my friend
Dan never did explain why a casino is allowed to
permanently ban you, trespass you, and escort you
off the property, without ever telling you why. His
only explanation was, when you get banned you 'know'
why. Heck, Dan, even the cops tell you why you're
being arrested, or why they're hassling you. Casinos
tell you nothing. Doesn't this seem a little 'odd'?
They are a private business. They can refuse service to anyone for any reason. So can the local grocery store.
Quote: YoDiceRoll11They can refuse service to anyone for any reason. So can the local grocery store.
I've never been backroomed at the grocery
store. Is that by the break room? Do
they force feed you rotten bananas till
the cops get there?
Quote: EvenBobI've never been backroomed at the grocery
store. Is that by the break room? Do
they force feed you rotten bananas till
the cops get there?
Note how I said refuse service, not break your knees.
Quote: jwblue
Craps is meant to be a game of luck. Not skill.
Craps and any other game that has a house advantage is NOT a game of luck. It would be if you would have fair odds.
Its a form of entertainment, you pay whatever the house edge is(or more, depending on how you play :-)) for the pleasure of playing that game.
Quote: YoDiceRoll11They are a private business. They can refuse service to anyone for any reason. So can the local grocery store.
Not quite. Some "reasons" like appearance, skin color, facial or body shape, dress, homelessness, physical disabilities or other handicaps are illegal.
Quote: EvenBobI've never been backroomed at the grocery store. Is that by the break room? Do they force feed you rotten bananas till the cops get there?
Once I was at a Thrifty drug store (which was later bought out by Rite Aid) with a friend who stole a candy bar. After leaving a plain-clothed security guard caught up with us and back-roomed both of us. I didn't think it was fair that I got dragged back there. Even my friend admitted I had nothing to do with it. However, to answer the question, they put us in a small office next to the break room. As employees went in and out of the break room they gave us the stink eye. After making us squirm for a while he had us call each other's parents.
Although we were both banned from the store, I returned many times because it was closest such store to my house. I later developed quite a crush on a cashier there and would buy stuff almost every day just to chat with her. Of course, I never built up enough courage to ask her out.
I frequently ask for the house rules for table games, especially new games like SWITCH. I never see anything in the rules about counting. What if I am playing SD BJ and see a lot of small cards on the table and decide not to hit my 16 against a dealers 10. Have i broken a rule ? Will you have Face escort me from the premise ? If surrender is not offered, must I hit that 16 to be a law abiding citizen ???
Quote: SanchoPanzaNot quite. Some "reasons" like appearance, skin color, facial or body shape, dress, homelessness, physical disabilities or other handicaps are illegal.
Any reason aside from race, religion, or ethnicity, a private business can exclude people, typically for reasons that they feel may be counter-productive or damaging to their operations.
Quote: PaigowdanAny reason aside from race, religion, or ethnicity
That's only a formality - they can always find another reason, or simply refuse to tell you one.
Quote: buzzpaff" Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules, and that's a lot - but a lot of the casino cheating crap that gamblers justify with a straight face - at least at this forum - is illegal. "
I frequently ask for the house rules for table games, especially new games like SWITCH. I never see anything in the rules about counting. What if I am playing SD BJ and see a lot of small cards on the table and decide not to hit my 16 against a dealers 10. Have i broken a rule ? Will you have Face escort me from the premise ? If surrender is not offered, must I hit that 16 to be a law abiding citizen ???
Nobody said that.
You may play your hand as you see fit, of course. However, if it is determined that you were cheating or using an unauthorized advantage plays that were indeed against house rules, you may be asked to play another game or even ejected from the premises - AND while being fully a law-abiding citizen.
People do not have a constitutional right to be on certain business properties - whether it's a casino, a movie house, or a restaurant, if certain behaviors were deemed unacceptable to the business establishment were committed. And who decides this? Well, the business management of the business operation conducting the ejection.
Quote: PaigowdanNobody said that.
You may play your hand as you see fit, of course. However, if it is determined that you were cheating or using an unauthorized advantage plays that were indeed against house rules, you may be asked to play another game or even ejected from the premises - AND while being fully a law-abiding citizen.
People do not have a constitutional right to be on certain business properties - whether it's a casino, a movie house, or a restaurant, if certain behaviors were deemed unacceptable to the business establishment were committed. And who decides this? Well, the business management of the business operation conducting the ejection.
" Unauthorized advantage plays " means exactly what at a BJ table. Please don't say counting unless you explain exactly what you mean by "counting". I just want to make sure I do not violate the rule that is not listed in the rules that I am given by the casino's.
Quote: P90[Aside from race, religion, or ethnicity] That's only a formality - they can always find another reason, or simply refuse to tell you one.
Yes, they may indeed - so as long as it was not for race, religion, or ethnicity.
So as long as the reasons pertain to their business needs, and are reasonably justified by that need - out you go.
Casino reasons may include: advantage play, being publicly drunk and belligerent, not being of age, or causing a disturbance, etc. It doesn't matter how we feel about it, it matters if we are deemed a problem. If being ejected from a casino for being unable to conduct ourselves to certain standards is in any way traumatic, offensive, or incomprehensible to us, then we need to assess our priorities and true reasons for being there.
And "unauthorized advantage plays" simply means: "as determined by management."
If you were deemed to be a problem, - and concurrently claim "that poor little you has no idea why??" then you are either:
1. too clueless to comfortably be in a casino, or;
2. lying about what you do honestly know about your actions.
And there are no other scenarios.
Quote: WizardHowever, to answer the question, they put us in a small office next to the break room.
OMG, I was making a joke, and its turns out
to be true. Its just as well you didn't ask the
girl out, most of them say no. We have to wait
till they decide if they like us, then they let us
know. Sigh.
If you were deemed to be a problem, - and concurrently claim "that you have no idea why??" then you are either:
1. too clueless to comfortably be in a casino, or;
2. lying about it.
there are no other scenarios.
There you agree that counting is not cheating ! I do not violate any rules by counting. I am barred by management for the simple
fact that I am deemed capable of winning in the long run at BJ and this is not to be tolerated.
Quote: buzzpaffThere you agree that counting is not cheating ! I do not violate any rules by counting. I am barred by management for the simple
fact that I am deemed capable of winning in the long run at BJ and this is not to be tolerated.
A guy I know came close to being barred from an "all you can eat" pizza promo, for eating too much :)
His story is that after a while the waiters simply ignored him. His dining companion fell asleep. And the following day the promo was gone. Actually I'm astounded he went back the following day.
I don't think he violated the rules, either, as there was no limit to how much he could order. But I can see the pizza palce's point of view.
Quote: buzzpaff
There you agree that counting is not cheating !
Yes, it is not cheating in a legal sense. But neither is being publicly drunk and beligerent, or being under age, or annoying other players in any way "cheating", - but they are still reasons for expulsion.
Quote: buzzpaffI do not violate any rules by counting.
Yes, you do indeed. You violate established house rules and protocols against card-counting specifically - that indeed may bar card-counters from playing Blackjack, and yes, it is not a penal code infraction, but yes, - it is an utterly valid reason for being backed off, your agreement on this point or liking it being irrelevant.
Quote: BuzzpaffI am barred by management for the simple
fact that I am deemed capable of winning in the long run at BJ and this is not to be tolerated.
And you find this confusing to you??!!
Quote: PaigowdanYes, it is not cheating in a legal sense. But neither is being publicly drunk and beligerent, or being under age, or annoying other players in any way "cheating", - but they are still reasons for expulsion.
Yes, you do indeed. You violate established house rules and protocols that indeed may bar card-counters from playing Blackjack, and yes, it is not a penal code infraction, and yes, it is a valid reason for being backed off.
And you find this confusing to you??!!
What I find confusing is you continued desire to label cheaters those patrons that are capable of winning by betting and playing according to the established house rules for the game of blackjack !
Quote: buzzpaffWhat I find confusing is you continued desire to label cheaters those patrons that are capable of winning by betting and playing according to the established house rules for the game of blackjack !
Card counting and advantage play is viewed by the house as cheating or "taking unacceptable advantage" - regardless of the exact penal code status.
To let someone else's view - particularly the view of casino management - disturb your own peace of mind because you somehow see things differently is crazy. You, as it appears, should feel relieved that you are of a differing opinion from casino management.
Now, wouldn't you - as an advantage player - have trouble sleeping if you actually saw things eye-to-eye in concert with casino management?
Quote: PaigowdanCard counting and advantage play is viewed by the house as cheating or "taking unacceptable advantage" regardless of penal code status.
To let someone else's view - particularly the view of casino management - disturb your own peace of mind because you see things differently is crazy. You, as it appears, should feel relieved that you are of a differing opinion from casino management.
Just because someone views me as a cheater does not make me a cheater. No more than someone describing you as a grumpy bitter old man...... Ooops bad analogy there. LOL
Quote: PaigowdanYes, it is not cheating in a legal sense. But neither is being publicly drunk and beligerent, or being under age, or annoying other players in any way "cheating", - but they are still reasons for expulsion.
And you find this confusing to you??!!
Being drunk and disorderly is illegal. So is being underage and loitering on a casino floor. Counting cards is not illegal. So, yes, I'm still kind of confused.
Quote: buzzpaff
Just because someone views me as a cheater does not make me a cheater.
Very true. What do you care about the differing opinions of others, - especially if you disagree with them?
Quote: buzzpaffNo more than someone describing you as a grumpy bitter old man...... Ooops bad analogy there. LOL
Anyone who has ever met me often finds me very patient and tolerant. I take all sorts of shout downs and verbal abuse from players caught trying to take shots and make claims all the time, with a patient demeanor and smile on face, - although I may express and debate more disparaging views of such people among friends and comrades and fellow board members - who may also see things differently, too. We're here for open discussion and debate, and often find stimulating thought and arguments in it all. I'd like to think it is a more productive and interesting use of our time, - sharing our differing opinions on gaming, - than watching Home Improvement re-runs.
Quote: rdw4potusBeing drunk and disorderly is illegal. So is being underage and loitering on a casino floor. Counting cards is not illegal. So, yes, I'm still kind of confused.
True - but they too are seldom formerly arrested.
So let's clarify this:
1. Something doesn't have to be illegal by penal code standards to be against a business establlishment's house rules by house rules' standards. Simple concept here.
2. Committing an act that is against a business establishment's ground rules can rightfully get you backed off of a game or premises, and does not always have to lead to a formal arrest. It just might lead to simply being backed off, and that's it.
In other words, you might be expelled from a business establishment for behavior that is unacceptable to them, - even if it is not illegal in a "jail time required" sense. They may say, "Sir, you have to leave," and you will leave the property, without being arrested, without it being a criminal record issue.
