Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000
October 4th, 2011 at 11:53:41 AM
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http://www.lvrj.com/business/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-130900938.html?ref=938
#1...How was the person not caught by the people running the game.
#2.. I am surprised that most casinos don't enforce the rule that the dice need to hit the back wall.
#3... It seems like cheating to me. Craps is meant to be a game of luck. Not skill.
HOWEVER, IF THE TABLE SUPERVISORS ALLOWED THE ROLL AND DID NOT CALL "NO ROLL"... THE GAMBLERS SHOULD BE PAID. IF THE ROLL RESULTED IN THE GAMBLERS LOSING MONEY, THE CASINO WOULD HAVE COLLECTED AND KEPT THE WAGERS.
I encourage any dissenting opinions to help me understand why it is not.
Quote: wizardNote: Article removed by the Wiz. Please DO NOT copy and paste entire articles on this site. I could get sued for copyright infringement, and the LVRJ has been known to do that.
#1...How was the person not caught by the people running the game.
#2.. I am surprised that most casinos don't enforce the rule that the dice need to hit the back wall.
#3... It seems like cheating to me. Craps is meant to be a game of luck. Not skill.
HOWEVER, IF THE TABLE SUPERVISORS ALLOWED THE ROLL AND DID NOT CALL "NO ROLL"... THE GAMBLERS SHOULD BE PAID. IF THE ROLL RESULTED IN THE GAMBLERS LOSING MONEY, THE CASINO WOULD HAVE COLLECTED AND KEPT THE WAGERS.
I encourage any dissenting opinions to help me understand why it is not.
October 4th, 2011 at 12:05:22 PM
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Yeah, they've been discussing this on VMB for a day or so. I agree with your point #3. A lot of rolls don't hit the back wall, and they may yell at the roller or warn them, but unless they call 'no roll' it is still a valid roll. This is basically like going back and retroactively calling 'no roll'. If the casino gets away with it in this case, why wouldn't they do it with everyone that won big, finding some excuse about their rolling to nullify wins after the fact. It sets a dangerous precedent if Wynn wins this.
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
October 4th, 2011 at 12:07:07 PM
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IMO, with limited knowledge of the real details, seems as though it was up to someone to call "no dice" ... failing that, pay them! is my first thought. Maybe if I saw what they were up to in the way of distraction I'd feel differently.
Nevada law and courts supposedly side heavily with the casinos I'm told.
Nevada law and courts supposedly side heavily with the casinos I'm told.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 4th, 2011 at 12:15:58 PM
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Quote: jwblue#1...How was the person not caught by the people running the game.
#2.. I am surprised that most casinos don't enforce the rule that the dice need to hit the back wall.
They were big players. I saw another article about this case where it said that their m.o. was to deposit such a huge amount of money at the cage that the casino was willing to bend the rules as regards the backwall. The article said that it isn't uncommon for casinos to modify or ignore rules of games for high rollers. This annoyed me enormously in that I've never heard of this particular comp before. How much to I have to be betting to make the Banker commission go away? Seriously, tell me and I will start betting that amount. Or, how about Dealer Stands On Five?
October 4th, 2011 at 12:16:46 PM
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If it was discovered after the fact that they were using loaded dice, would it still be too late because the pit did not call "no roll" at the time?
Tough case. I can see some good arguments for both sides.
Tough case. I can see some good arguments for both sides.
October 4th, 2011 at 12:22:13 PM
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Yes, it would be dangerous territory for the casinos to start calling no rolls all the time. I know I have been at the table where the shooter did not hit the backwall but hit everything else on the table so it was obvious there was nothing skill related going. The one time it was an old lady at the Paris and she hit me, the chips in front of the box man and everything else on the table and she had one of those rolls we wait for our whole trip rolling number after number and nothing was said. The casino certainly could have started calling no rolls because she was not hitting the backwall but they did not I guess because her throws were obviously random. They would then have had egg on their face if a seven was rolled on the same type of roll and nothing was said. I think as long as the dice are thrown in the air and a valid attempt to hit the backwall is made it should be a good roll wether the dice are set or not. I do not think that it is possible for anyone to be good enough for the casinos to worry about as long as the dice go airborn and down the table.
October 4th, 2011 at 12:27:31 PM
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NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:
7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.
Given the above expansive definition, dice setting could arguably charged as a felony.
7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.
Given the above expansive definition, dice setting could arguably charged as a felony.
"What, me worry?"
October 4th, 2011 at 1:05:55 PM
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Sounds like these two were identifiable but the critical "blockers" were not. Blockers physically block the view of the crew/camera and physically distract someones attention at a critical moment in time.
Sounds like the crews got lax, surveillance was asleep and now the Wynn wants its money back and is going to sweat the two front players on the team.
Anyone know where these two were the second night The M Resort opened? I heard South American team from one source but heard Ukrainian team from other sources.
Where have they been in the meantime?
Note: Depositing a tempting sum in the cage is great but usually it just gets high limit room accommodations, however there usually is no craps table in the high limit room.
I once tossed the dice and it turned out to be a lob that didn't bounce at all. I would have called in a no roll but I think the crew just looked at what my bet was and figured they would let the "roll" stand.
I think the "gaming bord ordered the arrest" is typical.
Sounds like the crews got lax, surveillance was asleep and now the Wynn wants its money back and is going to sweat the two front players on the team.
Anyone know where these two were the second night The M Resort opened? I heard South American team from one source but heard Ukrainian team from other sources.
Where have they been in the meantime?
Note: Depositing a tempting sum in the cage is great but usually it just gets high limit room accommodations, however there usually is no craps table in the high limit room.
I once tossed the dice and it turned out to be a lob that didn't bounce at all. I would have called in a no roll but I think the crew just looked at what my bet was and figured they would let the "roll" stand.
I think the "gaming bord ordered the arrest" is typical.
October 4th, 2011 at 1:10:32 PM
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Hey, let's cut to the chase. Get caught cheating in Vegas and you are looking at jail time.
Every episode of Baretta began with the song, which contained the motto, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." The song was released as a single in Europe in 1976, reaching number one in the Dutch Top 40 as "Baretta's Theme".
Evidently the Dutch do more than just wear wooden shoes !
Every episode of Baretta began with the song, which contained the motto, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." The song was released as a single in Europe in 1976, reaching number one in the Dutch Top 40 as "Baretta's Theme".
Evidently the Dutch do more than just wear wooden shoes !
October 4th, 2011 at 1:47:49 PM
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I am changing my initial thoughts:
If someone tries to cheat, the casinos should get a free shot at a cheaters money.
Quote: Jwblue"#3... It seems like cheating to me. Craps is meant to be a game of luck. Not skill.
HOWEVER, IF THE TABLE SUPERVISORS ALLOWED THE ROLL AND DID NOT CALL "NO ROLL"... THE GAMBLERS SHOULD BE PAID. IF THE ROLL RESULTED IN THE GAMBLERS LOSING MONEY, THE CASINO WOULD HAVE COLLECTED AND KEPT THE WAGERS."
If someone tries to cheat, the casinos should get a free shot at a cheaters money.
October 4th, 2011 at 2:56:27 PM
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This entire dice sliding lawsuit is just plain sleazy. It stinks of 'bad faith' on the part of the Wynn.
Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?
Are we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?
Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.
Again, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.
Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!
-Keyser
Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?
Are we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?
Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.
Again, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.
Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!
-Keyser
October 4th, 2011 at 3:11:38 PM
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I would like more data on this but I assume the slides were blocked to some degree. It may be that the crew let the issue well... slide for awhile but I assume it was mostly akin to a discovery of switched dice by an after the fact review of a tape. The casino is not bound by its crews lack of vigilance.
October 4th, 2011 at 3:14:41 PM
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Agree with Keyser. Despicable casino conduct.
October 4th, 2011 at 3:32:29 PM
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And clearly they aren't bound by any real code of ethics. It's a sleazy enough situation that I won't return to the Wynn, especially since this appears to be how they treat their high rollers that are fortunate enough to win. I hope these players have the common sense to counter sue the Wynn for 'bad faith'.
And where's gaming? Is bad faith acceptable in LV now? Is this a sign of the times in LV?
Someone needs to contact Bob Nersesian, and the LV Bear.
Again, truly disgusting
And where's gaming? Is bad faith acceptable in LV now? Is this a sign of the times in LV?
Someone needs to contact Bob Nersesian, and the LV Bear.
Again, truly disgusting
October 4th, 2011 at 3:37:02 PM
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Quote: KeyserThis entire dice sliding lawsuit is just plain sleazy. It stinks of 'bad faith' on the part of the Wynn.
Here's why... Why didn't the pit crew or surveillance stop the game once they saw that they were sliding?
The crap dealers and Boxman had to be in on it, or had been ordered to allow it to continue - to their absolute amazement.
You don't have to wait until players win or lose extended sessions. One of two instances of the cheating manuever with a few minutes of surveillance tape, plus dealer statements, it can be all over for the perpetrators.
Quote: KeyserAre we for even on minute to believe that they weren't aware of the slide until after they viewed the video tapes? Or did they just decide at the time that it's ok if they slide just some of the time, because it would give the casino a chance to win the money back even if the players won?
Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.
I hate to say it, but I fully agree with this.
Quote: KeyserAgain, this predatory gambling on the part of the casino. It's a disturbing trend in which casinos are also reviewing big wins to see if they can win back some of the money that they have lost. It's sleazy when Caesar's Palace does it, and it's sleazy when the Wynn does it. The fact that the players were foreigners makes it easier for the casinos to get away with it in the end.
Put the word out, the Wynn is sweating the money these days. If you're lucky enough to win big, then they will use their attorneys or the patron dispute process in an attempt to win their money back! Truly disgusting!
-Keyser
They weren't sweating the money at all. They were just being a bit harsh and sensationalistic about it, but wrong when they could have stopped it earlier.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 4th, 2011 at 3:38:36 PM
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Quote: KeyserAnd where's gaming?
Did you check Steve Wynn's back pocket? You can
usually find them there.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 4th, 2011 at 3:39:07 PM
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Evidently!
I wonder if the Wynn casino also tried to freeze their front money.
I wonder if the Wynn casino also tried to freeze their front money.
October 4th, 2011 at 4:05:33 PM
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Quote: KeyserAnd clearly they aren't bound by any real code of ethics. It's a sleazy enough situation that I won't return to the Wynn, especially since this appears to be how they treat their high rollers that are fortunate enough to win.
Hey - these dirtbags (and they were indeed that) - weren't any sort of high rollers!
They weren't gamblers, they were downright cheaters sliding the dice - can such a distinction be made around here???
Yet only the casino is painted as the bad guy - and not the cheaters themselves also!
(They should have indeed had equal bile sprayed on them, too!)
They were clear casino cheats whom the Wynn also wanted and waited to see win or lose for some reason they'd have a difficult time explaining away, - after the first couple of clear cheating actions, but hadn't done so. I do give you that.
That's sleazy enough.
You do NOT have to wait until the player wins money from any cheating method to strengthen your case.
Catching them straight away and putting the brakes on it strengthens your case as a casino operator!
True.
Two dice slide attempts - caught on surveillance tape - and with dealer/boxman statements, they could have been quitely detained, arrested, booked, made bail, serve some sentence (or probation with a huge fine), - without this shit hitting the papers. I do not see how their delaying dilly-dally handling of the situation had helped.
One casino that I know of arrested two people in the last five weeks on their first (but clearly caught) cheating manuevers very quietly, no press or lawsuits. A little security growl-down in one case, and an "aw, shoot - cuff me!" in another.
In Wynn's defense, perhaps they were trying to make a strong statement about this kind of crap, which I can see and understand, but feel is very misguided.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 4th, 2011 at 4:21:44 PM
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If they were openly sliding the dice, then why didn't the Wynn stop them?
Exactly how incompetent are they over there?
I suspect the Wynn got caught with their pants down and is trying to get the money back.
Again, this smells more like 'bad faith'.
Exactly how incompetent are they over there?
I suspect the Wynn got caught with their pants down and is trying to get the money back.
Again, this smells more like 'bad faith'.
October 4th, 2011 at 5:17:24 PM
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The thing is, the Wynn isn't incompetent at all in this business.
They are the best in the business on dice and other table games.
Certainly their Game Protection and Surveillance are among the very best.
You catch a casino cheat in the act right away at a place of that level, the Men In Black quietly wisk them away to a "comfy room," to explain the facts of life while waiting for Metro Police to book them - with no press coverage or any type of scene at any time. Have your lawyers call our lawyers kind of thing, make restitution, serve a sentence, pay a fine, and from now on stay out of casinos. No cable television show on this! And certainly no loud lawsuit announcement against casino cheat foreigners in the Las Vegas Review Journal. Just very distasteful, unseemly - smells very bad.
Maybe Steve Wynn was trying to set an example case as a new paradigm that this shit is completely out - this I can see as his personal bold statement on this matter.
Casino cheats get caught,
- okay, they get backed off a table, detained and arrested away from people, and so everyone calls their lawyers. They make restitution, and do some sort of a sentence or large fine, and keep the volume level low.
A lot of players try this crap in a "What Was I Thinking" kind or "Easy Money/Career Mistake Choice" kind of thing..."Advantage play" mentality, I call it, just to poke a few board members in the eye in a friendly way.
I do not understand this very public and noisy new process of handling a couple of casino dice cheats at such a high-level Strip property, unless it is to set a new model to clamp down on the risks of gamblers' thinking, "casino cheating is the new sport of the game" - which some already do think this way. The new gambling juice is the stuff that I can get away with at a casino: If I didn't get caught, and I made me some money, then "it was all legal and okay all along" is obviously the thinking of these people. Too many of them.
Some bad gamblers or cheats actually feel this way, and take action on this thinking in the casino. Don't totally blame Wynn on a harsh counter-response, as you can also blame those who started this entire mess with the cheating manuevers in the first place.
Book 'em, Dano, be done with it
They are the best in the business on dice and other table games.
Certainly their Game Protection and Surveillance are among the very best.
You catch a casino cheat in the act right away at a place of that level, the Men In Black quietly wisk them away to a "comfy room," to explain the facts of life while waiting for Metro Police to book them - with no press coverage or any type of scene at any time. Have your lawyers call our lawyers kind of thing, make restitution, serve a sentence, pay a fine, and from now on stay out of casinos. No cable television show on this! And certainly no loud lawsuit announcement against casino cheat foreigners in the Las Vegas Review Journal. Just very distasteful, unseemly - smells very bad.
Maybe Steve Wynn was trying to set an example case as a new paradigm that this shit is completely out - this I can see as his personal bold statement on this matter.
Casino cheats get caught,
- okay, they get backed off a table, detained and arrested away from people, and so everyone calls their lawyers. They make restitution, and do some sort of a sentence or large fine, and keep the volume level low.
A lot of players try this crap in a "What Was I Thinking" kind or "Easy Money/Career Mistake Choice" kind of thing..."Advantage play" mentality, I call it, just to poke a few board members in the eye in a friendly way.
I do not understand this very public and noisy new process of handling a couple of casino dice cheats at such a high-level Strip property, unless it is to set a new model to clamp down on the risks of gamblers' thinking, "casino cheating is the new sport of the game" - which some already do think this way. The new gambling juice is the stuff that I can get away with at a casino: If I didn't get caught, and I made me some money, then "it was all legal and okay all along" is obviously the thinking of these people. Too many of them.
Some bad gamblers or cheats actually feel this way, and take action on this thinking in the casino. Don't totally blame Wynn on a harsh counter-response, as you can also blame those who started this entire mess with the cheating manuevers in the first place.
Book 'em, Dano, be done with it
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 4th, 2011 at 7:02:42 PM
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All other things aside, how does one manage to SLIDE a die the length of a Craps table? And do it without both dealers, the stick, AND the boxman yelling no roll! It's purely academic to me. The Wynn is far beyond my comfort level. Although they did cheat, so bad cess to them.
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
October 4th, 2011 at 7:17:40 PM
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Lets face it, ... boxmen can be bought. And Wynn is not bound by that transaction.
October 4th, 2011 at 7:54:29 PM
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Quote: KeyserAnd clearly they aren't bound by any real code of ethics. It's a sleazy enough situation that I won't return to the Wynn, especially since this appears to be how they treat their high rollers that are fortunate enough to win. I hope these players have the common sense to counter sue the Wynn for 'bad faith'.
And where's gaming? Is bad faith acceptable in LV now? Is this a sign of the times in LV?
Someone needs to contact Bob Nersesian, and the LV Bear.
Again, truly disgusting
If someone doesn't cheat, they aren't going to go after a winner's money.
As long as someone doesn't cheat, the casino won't come after the gambler.
October 4th, 2011 at 8:12:54 PM
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Veronica Dabul
Sanitized for Your Protection
October 4th, 2011 at 8:17:32 PM
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Quote:If someone doesn't cheat, they aren't going to go after a winner's money.
It depends on the amount of money won, and the casino.
These are tough times and the Wynn, and Caesar's Palace are playing down and dirty. Consequently, fewer foreigners will be making the trip to LV and will instead opt to travel to Macau. I'd be interested in seeing just how many large payouts are being disputed these days via the patron dispute process.
Again, 'bad faith'.
October 4th, 2011 at 8:51:48 PM
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I expect it will not be easy to prove in court that they were cheating; the player who "slid" will simply shake his head and say "Huh? That's just how I throw them. It happens sometimes. The dealers saw it, the box saw it, they said nothing."
Pretty good defense, actually.
Wynn himself must have made the "executive decision" to sue the alleged scallywags, perhaps taking it personal: bad business decision on his part, most especially if, as I expect, he loses in a court of law.
Odds are it will never go to court; it should settle quietly, and most likely confidentially ... with the players keeping all or most of their winnings: unless they are running scared.
Do the South Americans have the cajones to roll the dice, winner take all, in Las Vegas?
Stay tuned ...
Pretty good defense, actually.
Wynn himself must have made the "executive decision" to sue the alleged scallywags, perhaps taking it personal: bad business decision on his part, most especially if, as I expect, he loses in a court of law.
Odds are it will never go to court; it should settle quietly, and most likely confidentially ... with the players keeping all or most of their winnings: unless they are running scared.
Do the South Americans have the cajones to roll the dice, winner take all, in Las Vegas?
Stay tuned ...
"What, me worry?"
October 4th, 2011 at 8:56:16 PM
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I use to debate with my friends abroad about how LV was the safest place to gamble. I'd tell them, "Come to Vegas!"
These days, I'm ashamed to say that I no longer believe that to be necessarily true.
These days, when the casino loses enough, it appears that they will try to send the attorneys in to get it back.
The attorneys have become the 'knock around guys'. If you win too much they will pay 'yooz' a visit.
These days, I'm ashamed to say that I no longer believe that to be necessarily true.
These days, when the casino loses enough, it appears that they will try to send the attorneys in to get it back.
The attorneys have become the 'knock around guys'. If you win too much they will pay 'yooz' a visit.
October 4th, 2011 at 9:41:39 PM
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That is not true, and ridiculous.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 4th, 2011 at 10:07:13 PM
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As absurd as it sounds, it's still what appears to be happening in Vegas.
Bad economy = 'bad faith'
Bad economy = 'bad faith'
October 4th, 2011 at 10:25:02 PM
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Quote: KeyserThese days, when the casino loses enough, it appears that they will try to send the attorneys in to get it back.The attorneys have become the 'knock around guys'. If you win too much they will pay 'yooz' a visit.
Hey, I don't have to be convinced. The casino is the Dark Side,
there is no lengths they won't go to. Just by walking thru the
door you've entered into a contract for them to try and get every
dime you have, by any means they choose.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 4th, 2011 at 10:33:18 PM
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As absurb as it sounds, it is absurd as it is.
Vegas is a great place to play, - and where good people are treated with great respect and consideration. Cheats get thankfully caught. Why are you guys defending them to the ends of the earth??
The people we are talking here were absoultely clear casino cheats who were caught.
Granted, Wynn's actions were a bit slow on this matter - but how exactly does this make these absolute "dead-to-rights" casino cheat slimebags - any sort of saints or robin-hoods or other than "bad faith??"
The dice-slider casinos cheats were the bad faith actors cheats in this drama - and from the very get-go in the matter,
- and Wynn's (also) bad faith actions don't make them an iota more innocent...so why in the world say otherwise??
Vegas is a great place to play, - and where good people are treated with great respect and consideration. Cheats get thankfully caught. Why are you guys defending them to the ends of the earth??
The people we are talking here were absoultely clear casino cheats who were caught.
Granted, Wynn's actions were a bit slow on this matter - but how exactly does this make these absolute "dead-to-rights" casino cheat slimebags - any sort of saints or robin-hoods or other than "bad faith??"
The dice-slider casinos cheats were the bad faith actors cheats in this drama - and from the very get-go in the matter,
- and Wynn's (also) bad faith actions don't make them an iota more innocent...so why in the world say otherwise??
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 4th, 2011 at 10:37:02 PM
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Well, like I've said, the whole thing is just plain sleazy.
October 5th, 2011 at 12:19:53 AM
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Well following the article and posts...
The Wynn didnot catch it at first, when they did, and were certain, the looked back to see if if the perps were routinely trying to slide the dice. The Wynn found a pattern of abuse (cheating), and prosecuted.
Then again, if I set the dice to 4-4 up, so that I can see the House mark on the back of the center pip of the "3", should I always orient the dice that way before rolling, or is that a cheat? Or should I only play craps when a certain letter appears in said position?
N&B
The Wynn didnot catch it at first, when they did, and were certain, the looked back to see if if the perps were routinely trying to slide the dice. The Wynn found a pattern of abuse (cheating), and prosecuted.
Then again, if I set the dice to 4-4 up, so that I can see the House mark on the back of the center pip of the "3", should I always orient the dice that way before rolling, or is that a cheat? Or should I only play craps when a certain letter appears in said position?
N&B
To err is human.
To air is Jordan.
To arrr is pirate.
October 5th, 2011 at 12:56:03 AM
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I've been reporting on dice influencing and the law for years. (No one can "control" dice.)
Here are the facts about sliding, why it is illegal, but why "influencing" and "setting" are legal:
My report on the Wynn event and more on dice control legality
Here are the facts about sliding, why it is illegal, but why "influencing" and "setting" are legal:
My report on the Wynn event and more on dice control legality
October 5th, 2011 at 3:08:38 AM
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Here's my stupid guess.
Steve Wynn is rabid about cheating. He admits that when he bought the Golden Nugget in the mid 1970's he fired over half the staff for being cheats. I think he is concerned enough about this problem that he wants his boxman to call "no rolls" for dice that don't hit the back wall, but he doesn't want to alienate his players.
So he needs a high profile case with a flashy client. He will quietly work out a deal, because he is on very shaky ground to explain why the boxman didn't call "no roll". In the meantime he can institute a firm "must hit the back wall" policy, and everyone in the casino will be understanding.
October 5th, 2011 at 3:23:48 AM
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Quote: pacomartinHe admits that when he bought the Golden Nugget in the mid 1970's he fired over half the staff for being cheats.
Well, yeah. My first trip to Vegas was in 1975 and it was a Mob
town. I didn't know that till later, though. It was a much friendlier
place then, the dealers were upbeat and cool. Of course, most
casinos weren't pooling tips yet, so thats a large part of it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 5th, 2011 at 3:42:13 AM
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Whoa there! I don't think this is some friendly publicity stunt.
>Steve Wynn is rabid about cheating.
Most casino owners are.
>when he bought the Golden Nugget he fired over half the staff for being cheats.
This was reluctant. He was confronted by a decades old bar-owning acquaintance whose back room was filled with top casino officials divvying up chips at the end of each graveyard shift. It was the worst time to have to fire so many of his staff, but he had no choice.
>he wants his boxman to call "no rolls" for dice that don't hit the back wall, but he doesn't want to alienate his players.
ALL casinos want that. Its a matter of degree and courtesy and alertness. Not every beautiful woman who bumps into you has just lifted your wallet. Sometimes she is just a beautiful woman in high heels whose had too much to drink. Sometimes you may even get lucky.
Boxman often keep silent the first time, say something the second time, say it more emphatically the third time, etc. No one wants a legitimate player to become offended and walk out in a huff. Likewise no one wants a dice cheat to get away with anything. The stick and the boxman are part of a team and they know how to work together to keep an atmosphere pleasant but to also run a straight game. Sometimes a stickman will make a joke, sometimes a stickman will give the nod to the pitboss.
>So he needs a high profile case with a flashy client.
Lawyers are more expensive than lighting a fire under a boxman.
No matter how fetching the defendant is, the publicity is still bad.
No matter what the players are like, the cheapest and most effective cure is inside the casino, not inside a court room.
>Steve Wynn is rabid about cheating.
Most casino owners are.
>when he bought the Golden Nugget he fired over half the staff for being cheats.
This was reluctant. He was confronted by a decades old bar-owning acquaintance whose back room was filled with top casino officials divvying up chips at the end of each graveyard shift. It was the worst time to have to fire so many of his staff, but he had no choice.
>he wants his boxman to call "no rolls" for dice that don't hit the back wall, but he doesn't want to alienate his players.
ALL casinos want that. Its a matter of degree and courtesy and alertness. Not every beautiful woman who bumps into you has just lifted your wallet. Sometimes she is just a beautiful woman in high heels whose had too much to drink. Sometimes you may even get lucky.
Boxman often keep silent the first time, say something the second time, say it more emphatically the third time, etc. No one wants a legitimate player to become offended and walk out in a huff. Likewise no one wants a dice cheat to get away with anything. The stick and the boxman are part of a team and they know how to work together to keep an atmosphere pleasant but to also run a straight game. Sometimes a stickman will make a joke, sometimes a stickman will give the nod to the pitboss.
>So he needs a high profile case with a flashy client.
Lawyers are more expensive than lighting a fire under a boxman.
No matter how fetching the defendant is, the publicity is still bad.
No matter what the players are like, the cheapest and most effective cure is inside the casino, not inside a court room.
October 5th, 2011 at 5:59:14 AM
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I couldn't find a video on Youtube of a dice slider. Which is surprising as one can usually find anything on there. Dice manipulation, and setting yes, but no die sliding on the same side across the table.
Sanitized for Your Protection
October 5th, 2011 at 7:42:05 AM
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Scarne's generation didn't have youtube but it did have "dirty crews". These are people with poker player morality who switched to dice the easy way: find out which Boxman is behind in his mortgage payments (or the equivalent). Now its all over but the proof, which I think will be coming out in court soon.
October 5th, 2011 at 8:14:50 AM
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Alan's interview with the retired agent was interesting, but the interviewee's comments only seems to muddle the issue of illegality.
It is claimed that a throw is deemed legal only if the dice are "tossed in the air, hit the table surface at least once and hit the back wall."
That might be the criteria for a casino to accept a throw, but as to whether a player can be prosecuted for not meeting these criteria is a different question entirely.
I am unaware of any Nevada statute or regulation that spells out the above criteria as defining the requirements for a legal throw; if there are any, please point them out.
I am also unaware of any appellate Nevada criminal cases wherein the courts have wrestled with, clarified and ruled on this thorny issue: I rather doubt that any Nevada court has specified the three mentioned criteria as being essential for a roll of the dice to be deemed legal.
In the absence of either statute, regulation or court case, the issue is wide open for interpretation, which should provide very fertile ground indeed for a competent defense attorney to successfully defend against a claim of cheating.
It is claimed that a throw is deemed legal only if the dice are "tossed in the air, hit the table surface at least once and hit the back wall."
That might be the criteria for a casino to accept a throw, but as to whether a player can be prosecuted for not meeting these criteria is a different question entirely.
I am unaware of any Nevada statute or regulation that spells out the above criteria as defining the requirements for a legal throw; if there are any, please point them out.
I am also unaware of any appellate Nevada criminal cases wherein the courts have wrestled with, clarified and ruled on this thorny issue: I rather doubt that any Nevada court has specified the three mentioned criteria as being essential for a roll of the dice to be deemed legal.
In the absence of either statute, regulation or court case, the issue is wide open for interpretation, which should provide very fertile ground indeed for a competent defense attorney to successfully defend against a claim of cheating.
"What, me worry?"
October 5th, 2011 at 8:40:21 AM
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Quote: MrVIn the absence of either statute, regulation or court case, the issue is wide open for interpretation, which should provide very fertile ground indeed for a competent defense attorney to successfully defend against a claim of cheating.
Personally, I don't think the casino has any case. Even if the players openly admit that they were sliding the dice, I don't see how that violates any laws. They were not using any extra equipment, just their own skill. The only chance is if the casino can show organized collusion with their employees.
That's why I think that the purpose of the accusation is to send a message that the Wynn will be hard on calling "no roll" in the future.
October 5th, 2011 at 8:54:28 AM
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Quote: pacomartinPersonally, I don't think the casino has any case. Even if the players openly admit that they were sliding the dice, I don't see how that violates any laws. They were not using any extra equipment, just their own skill. The only chance is if the casino can show organized collusion with their employees.
That's why I think that the purpose of the accusation is to send a message that the Wynn will be hard on calling "no roll" in the future.
A good point.
That is why I never understood why tables don't enforce the rule with the dice needing to hit the back wall.
The accused could say
"That is how I throw the dice."
Someone said that the casinos don't want to enforce the rule because they don't want to alienate high rollers.
Why would anyone get upset? Those are the rules.
October 5th, 2011 at 9:00:02 AM
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I wish the casino did enforce the hit the back wall rule.. I seven'd out twice with short rolls just when it was getting interesting, and refuels would have been nice...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 5th, 2011 at 9:17:48 AM
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Quote: pacomartinPersonally, I don't think the casino has any case. Even if the players openly admit that they were sliding the dice, I don't see how that violates any laws.
Frank, cheating a casino establishment violates laws, laws related to gaming. Doesn't matter how you or I see, it, it matters how the lawyers and judges will see it and rule.
Quote: PacoMartinThey were not using any extra equipment, just their own skill.
Cheating may or may not involve additional equipment, that is irrelevent. Cheating is an illegal action, whether or not an additional device is used.
Quote: pacemartinThe only chance is if the casino can show organized collusion with their employees.
No, people can try to cheat casinos with or without the collusion of internal agents. Many casino cheats are solo practitioners who are acting as their own agents.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 5th, 2011 at 9:26:43 AM
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Quote: jwblueThe accused could say
"That is how I throw the dice."
And they would be answered: "Not here can you throw the dice like that! That is cheating and you may get backed off or arrested."
Saying something like, "Well..that's how I do it" doesn't make it right.
A bank robber or car thief can also say, "Well...that's just how I pay the bills, - so it makes it all right." No it doesn't.
Quote: jwblueSomeone said that the casinos don't want to enforce the rule because they don't want to alienate high rollers.
Casinos do not wish to alienate high-rollers, that's true.
However, Casinos do not mind alienating casino cheats - that's different.
This is a difficult distinction for some to see.
Quote: jwblueWhy would anyone get upset? Those are the rules.
People get upset at rules they do not like, or don't agree with, and people get upset when people don't follow the rules.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 5th, 2011 at 9:27:24 AM
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Some of us wimps have trouble throwing the dice that far. :-)Quote: jwblueI never understood why tables don't enforce the rule with the dice needing to hit the back wall.
More than a year ago, I posted here about a casino that complained that my throws weren't bouncing to the end of the table, while I complained that their tables didn't let the dice bounce in that direction. The little cubes kept jumping to the left on every throw, twice hitting the dealer who was no where near in line with my throw.
October 5th, 2011 at 10:00:22 AM
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I'm sure the gaming commission would like to know why the Wynn chose not to enforce the gaming rules while the players won.
It's the responsibility of the casino to enforce the rules of the game. A responsible and non corrupt gaming commission could pull their license for not enforcing the rules.
For now, I guess we're supposed to believe that the craps crew at the Wynn is an incompetent bunch of boobs.
A really sleazy situation over there.
Again, can anyone say 'bad faith'?
It's the responsibility of the casino to enforce the rules of the game. A responsible and non corrupt gaming commission could pull their license for not enforcing the rules.
For now, I guess we're supposed to believe that the craps crew at the Wynn is an incompetent bunch of boobs.
A really sleazy situation over there.
Again, can anyone say 'bad faith'?
October 5th, 2011 at 10:33:30 AM
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The mystery is why their winning spree went on for so long before a dealer or stickman or boxman or floor supervisor or camera surveillance noticed. There are really only 4 possibilities:
1) A casino employee(s) colluded with the Argentinians
2) The entire chain of command for security at Wynn is incompetent
3) Security at Wynn did notice, but they declined to pursue the matter because the Argentinians had an enormous bankroll and the casino figured their dice-setting was bound to fail
4) These Argentinians are really really skilled at disguising their dice-setting
Which possibility is most likely?
1) A casino employee(s) colluded with the Argentinians
2) The entire chain of command for security at Wynn is incompetent
3) Security at Wynn did notice, but they declined to pursue the matter because the Argentinians had an enormous bankroll and the casino figured their dice-setting was bound to fail
4) These Argentinians are really really skilled at disguising their dice-setting
Which possibility is most likely?
October 5th, 2011 at 10:45:55 AM
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or option 5,
5) The casino noticed that the dice weren't hitting the backwall everytime and that they may have been sliding once in a while. Consequently the casino decided that it was a win/win situation. Meaning if the players lost, fine. The casino keeps the loss. If the players happen to win, they figured they could use the patron dispute process and attorneys to get the money back. 'Bad faith'.
5) The casino noticed that the dice weren't hitting the backwall everytime and that they may have been sliding once in a while. Consequently the casino decided that it was a win/win situation. Meaning if the players lost, fine. The casino keeps the loss. If the players happen to win, they figured they could use the patron dispute process and attorneys to get the money back. 'Bad faith'.
October 5th, 2011 at 11:18:33 AM
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Quote: reno3) Security at Wynn did notice, but they declined to pursue the matter because the Argentinians had an enormous bankroll and the casino figured their dice-setting was bound to fail
As we all know, card counting in blackjack has a drawback. If you miscount, you could actually lower your odds of winning. I have seen it in print many times that surveillance sees people trying to count cards all the time. You would expect that given the number of people who purchase books on the subject. Most of the time, security is satisfied that the player is not a very good counter, and they let them go, happy in the knowledge that they are probably going to lose money. After all, what really matters is the motivation to keep playing.
While I recognize that my opinion doesn't matter, but it is a judges call. I just imagine the following testimony:
"My client has been practicing sliding dice. He did some experiments where he threw the dice 100 times. One time he got a 6 in the single sliding dice to come up 25 times, and another time it came up 16 times. Normal expectation is that it will come up 16-17 times.
Friends of my client told him that he was just wasting his time. The casino is free to disallow dice throws that don't bounce off the back wall. My client said he wanted to fly to Vegas and try it anyway. The Wynn personnel was free to use their legal option at any time to disallow the throws. They chose not to do that."
I find it very difficult to believe a judge will find them guilty of some legal violation. They were not using loaded dice, or lasers, or computers.
The Wynn casino makes $73K per hour over a 24 hour day. It seems to me that they would not pursue this couple over $700K given that they could have stopped them at any time, by simply enforcing the back wall rule. It seems much more logical that the Casino wants a high profile case, so that they can enforce the back wall rule all the time, and most people in the casino will know about arrest. They are much less likely to protest it when "short rolls" are recalled.
