Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?
Quote:
MrV
A self-professed DI must swagger up to his table and do his stuff; then we can examine the video and see if the dice remain on axis etc.
Nothing else will do.
After thinking about this, any DI, would be a fool to show that they could beat the math of the game! To begin with, if they did beat the math of the game it might just be that they got lucky. This discussion about the DI's will go on forever, nobody is going to prove it either way. Luck has a lot to do with it, every time you go to the tables, what is happening on the tables could influence the out-come of what a shooter is doing! I get way with making short rolls all the time and guess what, most of them turn out to be a seven out!
Sure there are some that will make a point, but no DI that I know of will ever intentionally try to short roll the dice! They are all taught to hit the back wall, so the casino can't say anything to them, but that does not stop the casino employees from claiming the shooter didn't hit the back wall.
Quote: MrVHow can he prove it?
He admits that he cannot do it himself, and nobody else has demonstrated a documented ability on his table, under video conditions,to control the dice.
So, how can he prove it?
Mathematically via analysis of many rolls?
No: GIGO.
My point: unless / until Ahigh videotapes a shooter clearly demonstrating control of the dice on his table, the proposition will remain unproven by him.
A self-professed DI must swagger up to his table and do his stuff; then we can examine the video and see if the dice remain on axis etc.
Nothing else will do.
MrV, I don't know how to prove it?
I guess I don't convey my thoughts very well.
It just seems that if there were any proof it might come from him?
I watched those video's on the web from those selling di and although they are the pros at dc I was less than convinced by the videos. Even though they were edited
I watched some throws in real slo mo and they do so much jumping around and spinning that can't be seen with the naked eye it's amazing. After the dice hit the rubber's they spin and gyrate at an amazing velocity. Don't know if you watched that one guy, Koga? His throw is beautiful in regular speed. Slow it down and it's obvious that they don't land at the same time or the same place or hit the wall or spin the same amount or speed. If the human body is going to control that it would be some feat indeed. Regardless, there is much luck involved.
If these dice schools are the best out there, the casino's have nothing to fear.
I never saw the finale, Ahigh don't you have a mechanical dice thrower? Can a machine or a robot even throw with the precision to control the dice?
I dunno. I know it doesn't take much to get the die's to go askew one way or the other. The new dice are the worst, every little laser sharpened corner digs in and flips them in some wild direction.
I'm certain it won't be me proving it.
Btw, MrV what was your take on the high roller vs the low roller on no roll called?
I'm with you on the rules got to be in writing or they really don't count as per your discussion with mr. M.
The "other way" is proved thousands of times daily.Quote: superrickAny DI, would be a fool to show that they could beat the math of the game! To begin with, if they did beat the math of the game it might just be that they got lucky. This discussion about the DI's will go on forever, nobody is going to prove it either way.
Quote: AhighAnd no I don't even claim to be able to advantage play the game
Quote: MrVHe admits that he cannot do it himself
Where? In the statement above? Is this a demonstration of how you employ logical conclusions?
Let me admit something: I think the logic in what you write is lacking a great deal of due diligence.
Quote: MrVFrankly Alan, I don't give a damn what his OPINION is on the issue; we all have opinions, and they are irrelevant.
Obviously MrV there is no sense having a discussion with you, because you KNOW and the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Commission merely has an opinion. Tell me, MrV, why do you bother to get involved in these conversations when you know all the answers already? When you say the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Commission only has an opinion and "they are irrelevant."
Enough said.
I do think petro understands since he has the technical background to understand some of what I'm doing.
You guys with logical reasoning skills and technical knowledge of physics that are a bit lacking need to take the back seat and simmer down a little bit.
All this arguing is going nowhere. But believe what you will, I suppose.
In any case, if you can't see a case for short rolls creating opportunity for player advantage, you probably wouldn't even believe it with a sound technical proof with solid documentation anyway.
But not believing in something doesn't make it go away. Otherwise, just stop believing in murder and nobody can kill you.
Quote: AhighI am curious how many other people have seen a roll that was only short (no other conditions) and called a no roll. IE: both dice passed the mid-way point of the table, but one or more die came up short.
Ahigh... At Caesars years ago I was warned that I would be no rolled if at least one die didn't hit the back wall. But that was back in the days when they had boxmen.
But at Bellagio I was no rolled and bets on the 9 were not paid when both dice hit the back wall but did not bounce off far enough. I was no rolled for three rolls in a row with the dice leaning against the back wall showing 5-4.
At MGM I was no rolled. Several times. And it got to the point that a floorman or pit boss warned the tables where I played that "If Mr M misses the back wall even once take the dice away from him."
You have criticized me for making blanket statements and I suggest you reconsider yours. Short rolls do get no rolled. I admit not often, but it happens. Especially to shooters who happen to have some "control" over the dice. Perhaps you don't get no rolled because you have no control? Did you ever consider that? Plus a shooter who is more likely to be no rolled has a more gentle, lower level throw than what I've seen you do on your videos. No Ahigh, I don't think you risk being "no rolled" because you don't look like you have any control at all over the dice. You just look like a totally random shooter.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe "other way" is proved thousands of times daily.
Genius! First off, I think you meant "proven." Is it possible that your logic could be applied to prove that card counters that are not identified don't exist? If so, you might want to rethink things a bit.
Quote: AlanMendelsonAhigh... At Caesars years ago I was warned that I would be no rolled if at least one die didn't hit the back wall. But that was back in the days when they had boxmen.
But at Bellagio I was no rolled and bets on the 9 were not paid when both dice hit the back wall but did not bounce off far enough. I was no rolled for three rolls in a row with the dice leaning against the back wall showing 5-4.
At MGM I was no rolled. Several times. And it got to the point that a floorman or pit boss warned the tables where I played that "If Mr M misses the back wall even once take the dice away from him."
You have criticized me for making blanket statements and I suggest you reconsider yours. Short rolls do get no rolled. I admit not often, but it happens. Especially to shooters who happen to have some "control" over the dice. Perhaps you don't get no rolled because you have no control? Did you ever consider that? Plus a shooter who is more likely to be no rolled has a more gentle, lower level throw than what I've seen you do on your videos. No Ahigh, I don't think you risk being "no rolled" because you don't look like you have any control at all over the dice. You just look like a totally random shooter.
I watch a lot of play. And it's possible that you are much better at the game than I. I am merely making the case that advantage play is very plausible using logic, not that rolls are never no-rolled. As far as my broad sweeping generality that short rolls are generally always paid except in extremely rare circumstances, I think those circumstances are very infrequent in today's casinos and I stand by that assertion.
Casinos are very tolerant of conditions that would allow for advantage play through short rolls, especially if you seek those casinos out. You could even convince me that a certain casino (let's just say Binions for example) does not allow any advantage play at all for even one roll if you got really aggressive. But getting too aggressive just cuts the revenue, and it's not wise.
In any case, the opportunity for advantage play is easy to see in my opinion regardless of whether it is occurring, the opportunity is there mirrors the warnings about short rolls.
If you want to have another conversation, create a new thread, but generally speaking, my understanding is that this thread is about being banned for advantage play and/or does that really happen, and it really does because advantage play craps is a reality with certainty in the domain of short rolls.
You will absolutely find pit crews that agree with this; that much I can guarantee you. Go and ask anyone in the pit at Casino Royale if it's possible to advantage play craps at 20x odds on short rolls. They know over there. Give me the name of who you ask and what they tell you, and I'll look them up to verify that you asked as part of my due diligence.
You can have a different opinion, for sure. But you certainly can't tell me that pit crews don't believe in advantage shooting that is happening out there on a day by day basis as a result of shorties. That's why they warn. And that's what we're talking about to the best of my understanding here.
I'll wait for the admins to direct that action.Quote: AhighYou guys with logical reasoning skills and technical knowledge of physics that are a bit lacking need to take the back seat and simmer down a little bit.
Utterly ludicrous analogy. Murder is so realistic it can be proven by any number of methods. There is no way that can apply to dice influencing.Quote: AhighOtherwise, just stop believing in murder and nobody can kill you.
Quote: AhighMost people are so busy (on this forum) reading about arguments that they have no idea what I'm even doing on the technical side of this issue. And it's not like I'm going to point you over to where I am talking about it, because those who don't already know probably don't have the technical expertise to understand it.
I do think petro understands since he has the technical background to understand some of what I'm doing.
You guys with logical reasoning skills and technical knowledge of physics that are a bit lacking need to take the back seat and simmer down a little bit.
All this arguing is going nowhere. But believe what you will, I suppose.
In any case, if you can't see a case for short rolls creating opportunity for player advantage, you probably wouldn't even believe it with a sound technical proof with solid documentation anyway.
But not believing in something doesn't make it go away. Otherwise, just stop believing in murder and nobody can kill you.
Stop patting yourself on the back. You have done nothing except video tape random rolls and take roll dafa from people you don't know is accurate.
ZCore13
Quote: SanchoPanzaI'll wait for the admins to direct that action.Utterly ludicrous analogy. Murder is so realistic it can be proven by any number of methods. There is no way that can apply to dice influencing.
Completely appropriate analogy when considering how the belief system does not modify the world to fit how you see it.
Quote: Zcore13Stop patting yourself on the back. You have done nothing except video tape random rolls and take roll dafa from people you don't know is accurate.
Now you know everything that I have not done. Interesting! You logic skills as reflected in your posts are very very poor.
All I've seen you do is come up with baseless assertions using a poor excuse for logical analysis.
Quote: AhighNow you know everything that I have not done. Interesting! You logic skills as reflected in your posts are very very poor.
I see AHigh the post grader has come back again.
Just can't help yourself, can you.
Quote: thecesspitJust can't help yourself, can you.
I'm sure you left off the question mark as bait.
Yes, you can be banned for dice control, just as you can be banned for causing a fight at the table, or stealing chips, or taking your losing chips off the table before the dealer can sweep them away. Personally I have never seen anyone banned for dice control. However, I was told to leave the table at NYNY and the dice were taken away from me when the boxman and crew thought I was controlling the dice. I was not. My rolls were random and I got lucky. I did, however, set the dice --- but the dice bounced all over the place.
I only know of two true dice influencers -- neither has been banned to the best of my knowledge. I was with them at Caesars and in both cases the floorman and crew were supportive and actually amazed at their skill. Both always hit the back wall.
At MGM I was no rolled because one or both dice were not hitting the back wall using a "controlled throw" and a floorman followed me to other tables at MGM and told the crew at each table "If Mr M fails to hit the back wall even once take the dice away from him."
At Bellagio the crew "no rolled me" and refused to pay three bets -- 5 and 4 leaning against the back wall -- because I set the dice, used a slow, low roll, and the dice did not bounce off the back wall far enough. Later Bellagio management apologized to me and said the crew was being "retrained" because my rolls were valid. While an intervening floor person had the crew pay me for the third 9, I was never paid for the first two 9s. In all honesty, these rolls with the dice coming to rest against the back wall showing 5-4 (I use the cross sixes set with 5-4 in front) were accidents -- one in a million occurances.
A few weeks later at Bellagio a floorman made it rather obvious to me that I was not welcome to play there. When I was having a good roll he asked me for my players' card and when I did give it to him and he swiped it he threw the card back at me, hitting my hand as I was about to pick up the dice. I said to my wife "I think they want me to leave" and the floorman responded "that would be a good idea."
I have written about these incidents many times on the Internet over the years.
Quote: Dicenor33I believe Ahigh made an excellent point . You throw 3 regular shots and when it's time to 7 out you throw a short roll . Perfect cover . I'm gonna try it . Let's call it Ahigh's theorem .
Wow. You know when you created an account on GoodShooter, I deleted all of your posts and your account because I thought your posts there were what I would refer to as the "weak sauce."
The most memorable parts of your posts are the spaces before the periods. I guess for some, the weak sauce turns a $0.99 burrito into something that doesn't taste like glue. But you have to be willing to eat a $0.99 burrito to begin with. All I see in your posts are the spaces before the period, I'm not even reading the other parts.
Quote: Dicenor33I start to wear safety goggles when I play craps
I need to wear safety googles when I read any more threads about dice conrol, dice influence, short rolls, dice laws vs. dice rules, sliding, back walls, ........
Quote: AhighAll I see in your posts are the spaces before the period, I'm not even reading the other parts.
I have to admit, that's all I see too. I can't look
away from them . them . them .
Quote: AhighI guess for some, the weak sauce turns a $0.99 burrito into something that doesn't taste like glue. But you have to be willing to eat a $0.99 burrito to begin with.
I'm not saying I agree with this post , but that's hilarious !
I love this guy !
There are 4 ways to hit big when playing in casino:Quote: MidwestAPI need to wear safety googles when I read any more threads about dice conrol, dice influence, short rolls, dice laws vs. dice rules, sliding, back walls, ........
#1win a jackpot in slots
#2 monster roll in craps
#3 catch a trend in baccarat
#4 dealer busts a lot in BJ
Anything else is hot air, one day you win$200 and next you loose $200
Quote: AlanMendelsonObviously MrV there is no sense having a discussion with you, because you KNOW and the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Commission merely has an opinion. Tell me, MrV, why do you bother to get involved in these conversations when you know all the answers already? When you say the Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Commission only has an opinion and "they are irrelevant."
Enough said.
*sigh*
Alan, I do not "know" the answer: never said I did.
You are the one saying that you know, because some guy told you so.
He's just a guy, Alan.
He told you his opinion, but did not cite to the relevant written authority.
Where is the LAW which supports the proposition that short rolling is or is not "illegal?"
What does it matter whether he thinks it is or is not illegal?
Bottom line: Where is the statute, the reg, or the case law that criminalizes it?
As an investigative journalist, one would hope that these are not new concepts for you.
To summarize: "Where's the beef?"
You right ,the bitter truth about dice control does tests like 0.99 burrito and I 'd rather eat this one than pie in a sky. Thanks for correcting my typing.Quote: AhighWow. You know when you created an account on GoodShooter, I deleted all of your posts and your account because I thought your posts there were what I would refer to as the "weak sauce."
The most memorable parts of your posts are the spaces before the periods. I guess for some, the weak sauce turns a $0.99 burrito into something that doesn't taste like glue. But you have to be willing to eat a $0.99 burrito to begin with. All I see in your posts are the spaces before the period, I'm not even reading the other parts.
Quite telling, actually.
As the authoritative "Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage" specifies, "proven" is not widely recognized as the participle of the verb "prove." William and Mary Morris proceed to add, "Actually, "proven" is the past participle of "peeve," a Scottish verb. "Proven" is most generally relegated to the function of attributive adjective.Quote: AhighGenius! First off, I think you meant "proven."
Whooosh! The point about the difficulties of dice influencing just as validly applies to counting cards.Quote: AhighIs it possible that your logic could be applied to prove that card counters that are not identified don't exist? If so, you might want to rethink things a bit.
Quote: MrVAhigh seems to becoming increasingly condescending, as evidenced by his ongoing attempts to portray himself smarter than others.
Quite telling, actually.
And that is different from how he has always thought of himself from his posts?
We are all just small fry in Ahigh's pond and he lets us know it everyday.
I guess I just have to accept I am not as smart as Ahigh. But I think I will continue to do just fine at the end of the day.
Quote: BozAnd that is different from how he has always thought of himself from his posts?
.
I can deal with this version of him, it's the 'other' Ahigh
that bugs me.
Quote: MrVAhigh seems to becoming increasingly condescending, as evidenced by his ongoing attempts to portray himself smarter than others.
Quite telling, actually.
What's telling is the ongoing struggle to understand the most basic concepts in this thread's topics and the inability for people to stay on topic.
For instance, trying erroneously to be a grammatical nitpicker.Quote: AhighWhat's telling is the ongoing struggle to understand the most basic concepts in this thread's topics and the inability for people to stay on topic.
Quote: SanchoPanzaFor instance, trying erroneously to be a grammatical nitpicker.
Losing battle, he is far smarter than all of us combined. Dont believe me??? Just ask HIM.
And Ahigh, this forum is not like yours where one superior being controls what gets posted and when and doesnt delete what they feel is "Off topic". And imagine this, a forum where someone is NOT banned for not agreeing with a point of view.
Now go get your shinebox!!
Quote: Bozthis forum is not like yours
Quote: Dicenor33Score boards are used to spot trends in game like baccarat, but in craps they don't mean much
They don't mean much in baccarat either. Unless your name is gr8dicenor.
That's True he had a cool show .....Thats total bullshit no one on this board had anything to do with his show ending but AHIGH.Quote: petroglyphIn my opinion
He's put a lot of effort and resources into it and even had a pretty cool craps show on ustream, but I think people here killed it.
.
For what ever reason lets hope he brings it back, whether you believe its possible to beat craps or not.
Ahigh or anyone is there any evidence that SHORT ROLLS have and advantage? Please I want to get some information on this.
IDGAF if it's a rule or not at some of the casinos. Its not a law.
on a side note I seen a guy at the Plaza yesterday who was playing alone obviously trying to DI(DCW wannabe). Everything looked good however he was hitting the back wall so hard, I cant see how anyone can think they have any DI what so ever.
Possibly if the 2 sides that are facing inwards on your set, come up less often for some unknown reason and you can get your dice to roll softly to the back wall, then maybe baby you have something.
Quote: AxelWolfThat's True he had a cool show .....[Thats total bullshit no one on this board had anything to do with his show ending but AHIGH.
For what ever reason lets hope he brings it back, whether you believe its possible to beat craps or not.]
Ahigh or anyone is there any evidence that SHORT ROLLS have and advantage? Please I want to get some information on this.
IDGAF if it's a rule or not at some of the casinos. Its not a law.
on a side note I seen a guy at the Plaza yesterday who was playing alone obviously trying to DI(DCW wannabe). Everything looked good however he was hitting the back wall so hard, I cant see how anyone can think they have any DI what so ever.
Possibly if the 2 sides that are facing inwards on your set, come up less often for some unknown reason and you can get your dice to roll softly to the back wall, then maybe baby you have something.
Maybe you are correct that the constant smackdown had nothing to do with the show discontinuing? That would be a good thing if his armor was up and the BS didn't get to him. It was just an opinion. I certainly can't speak for anyone else.
If the rest of that sentence was directed toward me "whether you believe its possible to beat craps or not" I'll throw this out there.
I'll make a definitive statement on that. No, craps cannot be beat, nope, no how, unh uh, not gonna happen, unpossible. Even if a person were a lifetime
winner, the game still will stand, unvanquished. The only thing that might beat craps is if people quit playing it and all the tables are taken away. What also might beat craps is if casino management watches some of these dice school claims about dice control and getting rich after taking there class and reading there books. HAHA. Just follow me son, I'll having you shitting horse turds as big as diamonds.
I'm not entirely positive that the casinos aren't behind the dice schools? That would make sense to me. What a great way to get dcw's to the table's with secret methods of di and an all new system of betting [spoiler; bet the passline w/odds and the 6&8]. BWAhaha
On the short roll discussion. I've never tried anything but hitting the back wall, but seriously doubt I'd have any influence if I only had to roll them a couple of feet. If for some reason I throw a short roll it is entirely unintentional, I dislike being told to hit the back wall. I don't like those super bouncy tables where the dice take off on some moon shot and leave the table after hitting other patron's in the eye. [unless cleavage is involved]
On the dcw, what the hell. I talk to slot machines, sometimes curse although in reality I know they can't hear me. The dcw had hope. I think that's what keeps the lights on, the illusion that maybe each person has some special mojo. If people stayed informed of the facts [percentages/statistics] and didn't think they were somehow special and going to win, these casino's would close rapidly.
Quote: petroglyphI talk to slot machines
Me too!
The problem is, when they talk back all they say is what a fool I am and how they're going to take all my money.
Damned sadists.
Quote: MrVMe too!
The problem is, when they talk back all they say is what a fool I am and how they're going to take all my money.
Damned sadists.
The trick is to pretend you can't hear them.
Quote: AhighThat show was taking too much of my time and wasn't paying a dime. On top of that, I was accused of having an axe to grind. Want to know what's on my mind? That you may never find. But I will agree some people on here are not too kind. After answering a question for the fourth and fifth time, it loses the aura of the sublime, and just seems to suck up all your time. So it's fine.
Not all good things can be measured in dollars.
Hopefully the boy excels at math and it's fun for him.
I don't know about the repeated questions, but I now have the zr1000, thanks.
I understand contributor burnout.
The show did have potential for exponential growth, but to a particular subset of people. You weren't in it for the money.
Quote: petroglyphYou weren't it for the money.
Au contraire: "That show ... wasn't paying a dime."
Quote: BozWasn't paying a dime? Unlike your "advantage" craps play that casinos fear. OK I now see the difference, but again according to you I am not able to understand some things.
I'm a researcher not a professional gambler. Casinos are concerned about any short rolls for anyone who seems to be able to throw a consistent enough shot. Maybe fear is the wrong word, but they are concerned about it if for no other reason they have a job to make sure the rolls are within the guidelines of what the casino allows.
I have been told at the Wynn that my shot is just on the edge of what that casino allows. I appreciate this comment more than the comments at Binions where they tell me my shot isn't legal even though I hit the back wall and we get into an argument about what other casinos will allow that Binion's doesn't.
But the comment about payment is in reference to time allocation related to other things that I do that do generate money (not craps play).
My craps play is not a source of (lifetime) income for me, and I don't think I have ever made the claim that it is. If anything, I'm proud to admit it's a hobby and not something that makes me better off financially.
But that being said, I'm pretty sure I know more about the game than others who are fooling themselves into thinking it's a sound long-term investment of their time in terms of revenue generated (playing the game).
I've made a couple thousand progress in a matter of a couple of hours, but I do keep track of the long term, and I'm still a lifetime loser. I would have to win something like a couple hundred thousand (lifetime) for it to be a wise investment of my time though. I spent too much time on it already.
Quote: MrVAu contraire: "That show ... wasn't paying a dime."
And half the reason I said that, is because it was a rhyme. Your conclusion is nearly a crime.
Quote: AhighI'm a researcher not a professional gambler.
This is where you cross the line. You are not a researcher. You are an advocate trying to prove your point under the guise of being a researcher.
You tell us you have a controlled shot, then you fall back on the "it's about having fun" or "I am researching" when you can't prove you have a controlled shot.
You tell us you know all about casino craps in Vegas and is "knowing all" the function of a researcher?
When you are a winner you are a great craps shooter, but when you lose it's all for fun and for research.
If you were more honest you would be more believable.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis is where you cross the line. You are not a researcher. You are an advocate trying to prove your point under the guise of being a researcher.
You tell us you have a controlled shot, then you fall back on the "it's about having fun" or "I am researching" when you can't prove you have a controlled shot.
You tell us you know all about casino craps in Vegas and is "knowing all" the function of a researcher?
When you are a winner you are a great craps shooter, but when you lose it's all for fun and for research.
If you were more honest you would be more believable.
Exactly. I actually laughed out loud when I saw he thinks he's a "researcher". I'm sure there a lot of researchers out there that have a website with a forum where if you don't agree with the premise you get kicked off.
ZCore13
