Brand New Counter - $40,000 bankroll - What should be my bet spread and at what table minimum?
Quote: 1BBSo you're playing 8 deck H17?
Yes the majority, but mixed in with some, 8 deck S17, 6 deck S17, and occasionally 2 deck S17.
Quote: OnceDearA couple of questions Stabworld: What proportion of the time would you say the count is TC+2 or better (Or whatever TC you place significant bets.) What is your current ramp regime?
I'd say between 10%-15% of the time but prob closer to 10%.
AC Games ----------->
$10 1 spot 2 spot
0 10
+1 10
+2 100 75
+3 200 150
+4 400 300
$15 1 spot 2 spot
0 15
1 15
2 100 75
3 200 150
4 400 300
$25 1 spot 2 spot
0 25
1 50 50
2 100 75
3 200 150
4 400 300
PA and CT Games------->
$10 1 spot 2 spot
0 10
1 50 25
2 100 75
3 200 150
4 400 300
$15 1 spot 2 spot
0 15
1 50 25
2 100 75
3 200 150
4 400 300
$25 1 spot 2 spot
0 25
1 50 50
2 100 75
3 200 150
4 400 300
$50 1 spot 2 spot
0 50
1 150 100
2 300 200
3 400 300
4 400 300
Quote: stabworldAxiom- What do you mean by this? "overbetting his bankroll by a factor of 5 or 10" . Sorry not that mathematically educated on terminonlogy.
You massive swings are worrisome. Perhaps 5 or 10x was an overstatement but I am very conservative when it comes to (non-replaceable) bankroll requirements.
2/3 of your win came from 15 hours of play. Over a time period as short as 15 hours, you could just as easily have lost big as won big. That means that could easily be even or down at this point.
Quote:I ask because, I have been worried lately, that I have been max betting to high for my bankroll. (what I consider to be my bankroll, we already know the opposition to this, so lets not go over that again.)
My max bet is $300 X 2. current bankroll - $53,000.
Maybe I'm wrong then. By the "100 big bets" rule of thumb you are right where you should be. You swings seem very large, though. I would be extremely nervous if I had swings that big with that size bankroll.
Quote: stabworldYes the majority, but mixed in with some, 8 deck S17, 6 deck S17, and occasionally 2 deck S17.
Wait, you have 2D S17 available to you, and you spend most of your time at 8-deck H17?
How bad is the pen in 2D S17? I love 2D S17. If you can get 5/8 pen (65 cards) or more that game is great.
Quote: stabworldI'd say between 10%-15% of the time but prob closer to 10%.
AC Games ----------->
$10 1 spot 2 spot
0 10
+1 10
+2 100 75
+3 200 150
+4 400 300
Umm... no wonder you are getting heat. I'm not a big fan of cover but jumping from $10 to $100 or 2x75 in one hand (and trying to get away with a 60-1 spread) seems a little much.
Edit: Ignore my statements about betting too much at +2.
Quote: richbailey86what does card counting drop the house edge to
Your edge comes from betting more when you have the edge, and betting less (or walking away) when you don't. So it depends how much you bet when you have the edge and how little you bet when they have the edge.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWait, you have 2D S17 available to you, and you spend most of your time at 8-deck H17?
How bad is the pen in 2D S17?
Axiom,
If this is the game that he was asking about in the very beginning of this thread, it is a good game to play. I play here often but it is $50 min and watched closely if you camp out. I really do not understand why the OP plays at all in AC when much better rules are available in PA. They all offer surrender and S17. The only reason that I can imagine is that there are many shops in close proximity but in my experience it is not worth it.
Quote: SlackJawYokelAxiom,
If this is the game that he was asking about in the very beginning of this thread, it is a good game to play. I play here often but it is $50 min and watched closely if you camp out. I really do not understand why the OP plays at all in AC when much better rules are available in PA. They all offer surrender and S17. The only reason that I can imagine is that there are many shops in close proximity but in my experience it is not worth it.
The DD S17 games allow surrender? Do they allow DAS too? That is a ridiculously good game. You are +EV on any positive running count. I love games like that because it's easy to put on the "crazy high roller" act.
I thought that the MGM high limit DD game was good but they don't allow surrender....
1. Yes late surrender
2. DAS no RSA
The penetration is mediocre to very good, dealer dependent. I am not going to say much more but there is money to be made here.
is it a ridiculously good game at 45% pen? The game is not a secret and the pen is absolute garbage.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe DD S17 games allow surrender? Do they allow DAS too? That is a ridiculously good game. You are +EV on any positive running count. I love games like that because it's easy to put on the "crazy high roller" act.
I thought that the MGM high limit DD game was good but they don't allow surrender....
Quote: 1BBPenetration trumps rules. At 45% the pen is abysmal.
Penetration doesn't always trump rules. With the rules given the game should still be beatable.
Penetration USUALLY trumps rules. But if the rules are so good that the house edge is so low as .15%, then penetration does become less important, because you don't need as many higher counts to overcome the smaller house edge. I am a penetration guy, seeking out the best I can find. I don't have any .15% house edge games in my regular rotation, :( but if I did, I would be willing to play some lesser Pens than I normally go for.
The 100 max bet rule is a very loose rule. It originated in the days of better games, with lower house edges to overcome and less volatility and massive swings. I really don't think it even applies anymore and hate to hear people even bring it up. Today we have software, and simulations to which we can figure just what BR is needed to play a reasonable RoR. Any professional type player, playing to a non-replenishible BR is going to play to a minutely small RoR. Anyone still using that outdated 100 max bet rule better up the max bets needed to 150 -200.
Those are some insanely big spreads stabworld is applying. I can't get away with playing 1-40 spreads and don't really try. I played AC for 5 and a half years and didn't dare play those size spreads at the time. I am 5 years removed from those days, so maybe AC has changed as far as tolerance levels, I don't know.
There is a very loose rule of thumb, that was told to me by a pit friend, that I have adopted. "Never spread through more than 2 colors". Spreading through 3 colors gets noticed. Spreading $10 to $400 is spreading through 3 colors, red-green-black. Spreading $25-$400 is only spreading 2 colors. But if you go above $500 and start spreading $25-$500 and playing purple, you have then gone back to 3 colors.
This is one of the reasons I max bet in the $400-$450 range for most games. Well, that and $500 is one of those threshold points that draws more attention, but that's another topic. Oh, and even if you spread $10-$400, but wager all your $300 and $400 wagers in green rather than black that still counts as spreading 3 colors because, the dealer will attempt to pay you in black, unless you request green and requesting green for all $400 wagers probably draws even more attention, so there is just no good way to spread $10-$400 without going through 3 colors. I don't know how you are getting away with it stabworld and I wonder how long you will continue to do so.
Congrats on your good fortune stabworld. As you know, I am concerned about what you are doing, but I sincerely hope it continues to work for you.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWait, you have 2D S17 available to you, and you spend most of your time at 8-deck H17?
How bad is the pen in 2D S17? I love 2D S17. If you can get 5/8 pen (65 cards) or more that game is great.
The game is watched very closely, and they already pretty much suspect I am counting. The penetration in this game is very bad, 50-55%.
Quote: SlackJawYokelAxiom,
If this is the game that he was asking about in the very beginning of this thread, it is a good game to play. I play here often but it is $50 min and watched closely if you camp out. I really do not understand why the OP plays at all in AC when much better rules are available in PA. They all offer surrender and S17. The only reason that I can imagine is that there are many shops in close proximity but in my experience it is not worth it.
The problem with these games, although they have great rules, the penetration sucks, and you can never get less then a full table at the lower limits.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe DD S17 games allow surrender? Do they allow DAS too? That is a ridiculously good game. You are +EV on any positive running count. I love games like that because it's easy to put on the "crazy high roller" act.
I thought that the MGM high limit DD game was good but they don't allow surrender....
the rules of this game are the best out of any game I seen posted on this site for the "las vegas blackjack survey" the el cortex is the best with a .16% house edge. The above mentioned game has a .15% house edge.
rules are as follows:
$50 min bet, 2 deck, DAS, resplit aces allowed but only 1 card, split up to 4 times, late surrender, S17.
The problem with this game is it is watched very closely, and penetration is almost always at exactly 50%, and your lucky to get 55%, 60% at very best which is rare.
Quote: SlackJawYokelTo answer your questions (HA .15%)
1. Yes late surrender
2. DAS no RSA
The penetration is mediocre to very good, dealer dependent. I am not going to say much more but there is money to be made here.
your wrong about the no RSA, you can resplit aces, I have done it.
Quote: kewljJust a couple thoughts about the recent posts in this thread.
Penetration USUALLY trumps rules. But if the rules are so good that the house edge is so low as .15%, then penetration does become less important, because you don't need as many higher counts to overcome the smaller house edge. I am a penetration guy, seeking out the best I can find. I don't have any .15% house edge games in my regular rotation, :( but if I did, I would be willing to play some lesser Pens than I normally go for.
The 100 max bet rule is a very loose rule. It originated in the days of better games, with lower house edges to overcome and less volatility and massive swings. I really don't think it even applies anymore and hate to hear people even bring it up. Today we have software, and simulations to which we can figure just what BR is needed to play a reasonable RoR. Any professional type player, playing to a non-replenishible BR is going to play to a minutely small RoR. Anyone still using that outdated 100 max bet rule better up the max bets needed to 150 -200.
Those are some insanely big spreads stabworld is applying. I can't get away with playing 1-40 spreads and don't really try. I played AC for 5 and a half years and didn't dare play those size spreads at the time. I am 5 years removed from those days, so maybe AC has changed as far as tolerance levels, I don't know.
There is a very loose rule of thumb, that was told to me by a pit friend, that I have adopted. "Never spread through more than 2 colors". Spreading through 3 colors gets noticed. Spreading $10 to $400 is spreading through 3 colors, red-green-black. Spreading $25-$400 is only spreading 2 colors. But if you go above $500 and start spreading $25-$500 and playing purple, you have then gone back to 3 colors.
This is one of the reasons I max bet in the $400-$450 range for most games. Well, that and $500 is one of those threshold points that draws more attention, but that's another topic. Oh, and even if you spread $10-$400, but wager all your $300 and $400 wagers in green rather than black that still counts as spreading 3 colors because, the dealer will attempt to pay you in black, unless you request green and requesting green for all $400 wagers probably draws even more attention, so there is just no good way to spread $10-$400 without going through 3 colors. I don't know how you are getting away with it stabworld and I wonder how long you will continue to do so.
Congrats on your good fortune stabworld. As you know, I am concerned about what you are doing, but I sincerely hope it continues to work for you.
I maybe put out a $400 bet 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months, only because I was forced to play 1 spot. 99% of the time, I make sure I am able to play 2 spots, and I am betting $300 X 2.
What is considered to be my max bet when I'm trying to figure the 100X max bet, or 150X max bet for bankroll purposes? If I am playing $300 X 2 on 1 hand? Is my max bet considered to be $600, $400, $500? I'm unsure on this. I know it's not $300.
Thanks.
Quote: stabworldthe rules of this game are the best out of any game I seen posted on this site for the "las vegas blackjack survey" the el cortex is the best with a .16% house edge. The above mentioned game has a .15% house edge.
rules are as follows:
$50 min bet, 2 deck, DAS, resplit aces allowed but only 1 card, split up to 4 times, late surrender, S17.
The problem with this game is it is watched very closely, and penetration is almost always at exactly 50%, and your lucky to get 55%, 60% at very best which is rare.
50% is plenty. Is this common in PA? What is the max bet?
Quote: stabworldCan somebody answer this question for me:
What is considered to be my max bet when I'm trying to figure the 100X max bet, or 150X max bet for bankroll purposes? If I am playing $300 X 2 on 1 hand? Is my max bet considered to be $600, $400, $500? I'm unsure on this. I know it's not $300.
Thanks.
I'd go with $450.
Your bankroll requirement vary greatly depending on the quality of the game though. I doubt that 150 is enough for that crappy 8 deck game.
Edit: Ignore my statements about betting too much at +2. Somehow I was dividing by 2 twice.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice50% is plenty. Is this common in PA? What is the max bet?
I don't recall, but I think the table max is eighter $2,000 or $2,500.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'd go with $450.
Your bankroll requirement vary greatly depending on the quality of the game though. I doubt that 150 is enough for that crappy 8 deck game. You are also betting too much at +2, IMO. That adds tons of variance and adds nothing to your expected win.
I do agree, with betting too much at the +2, especially on H17 games with a .67% house edge, my edge is only 1/3 of a percent at a +2. However, I like to be very aggressive with any edge however small it may be. Also, it allows me to transition to my +3 and +4 bets a lot easier by just doubling the bet at each count. Thats the reason I designed the ramp in that way. $75 at a +2, $150 at a +3, and my max bet of $300 at a +4. I think it looks more natural to just leave the money on the table if I won the previous bet and the count went up by +1. The only problem is the jump from $10, $15, or $25 up to $75. I try to throw in a bet somewhere in between at around a +1 - +1.5, so the jump is not so high.
Lately, I have been toning it down on the +2 counts, I have been incorporating just a $50 bet instead of a $75 bet.
Quote: stabworldyour wrong about the no RSA, you can resplit aces, I have done it.
Stab,
With all due respect I think that you may be wrong about this or the dealer did not know the rules. As I am sure you know, the PA rules were set by the state. The rules are found in PA Bulletin 10-323 section 549.12 Splitting pairs c(2) "A player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace and may not elect to receive additional cards."
I could look this up online but I have this bulletin printed and referenced that.
In regards to penetration of this game the worst that I have ever seen is about 45% the best is far better than that. It is very dealer dependent. They only had 2 or 3 tables of the dd for the longest time but that is no longer the case. I play alone or with one other person a large majority of the time but I go at off peak times. Everybody knows about this game, just do not camp out and you can do well here.
Slack
Quote: SlackJawYokelStab,
With all due respect I think that you may be wrong about this or the dealer did not know the rules. As I am sure you know, the PA rules were set by the state. The rules are found in PA Bulletin 10-323 section 549.12 Splitting pairs c(2) "A player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace and may not elect to receive additional cards."
I could look this up online but I have this bulletin printed and referenced that.
In regards to penetration of this game the worst that I have ever seen is about 45% the best is far better than that. It is very dealer dependent. They only had 2 or 3 tables of the dd for the longest time but that is no longer the case. I play alone or with one other person a large majority of the time but I go at off peak times. Everybody knows about this game, just do not camp out and you can do well here.
Slack
That's what I thought and that's what I saw when I was there. This game is a counter trap. That's all anyone needs to know. Losers are always welcome.
Quote: 1BBThat's what I thought and that's what I saw when I was there. This game is a counter trap. That's all anyone needs to know. Losers are always welcome.
Great opportunity to test out your act :) Is this game generally available all over PA, or do only a few places offer DD?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceGreat opportunity to test out your act :) Is this game generally available all over PA, or do only a few places offer DD?
I'm not sure. I was only at the one and they had a very sharp pit.
Quote: SlackJawYokelStab,
With all due respect I think that you may be wrong about this or the dealer did not know the rules. As I am sure you know, the PA rules were set by the state. The rules are found in PA Bulletin 10-323 section 549.12 Splitting pairs c(2) "A player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace and may not elect to receive additional cards."
I could look this up online but I have this bulletin printed and referenced that.
In regards to penetration of this game the worst that I have ever seen is about 45% the best is far better than that. It is very dealer dependent. They only had 2 or 3 tables of the dd for the longest time but that is no longer the case. I play alone or with one other person a large majority of the time but I go at off peak times. Everybody knows about this game, just do not camp out and you can do well here.
Slack
Slack,
I initially thought it was only split aces once. But, I resplit aces not only on the lower limit games there, but also the DD game. I was surprised when I asked and the dealer allowed me, but I'd say with 80-90% confidence that you can resplit aces there. I will double check next time I play there. You could be right and I'm wrong, but pretty certain you can.
Quote: 1BBThat's what I thought and that's what I saw when I was there. This game is a counter trap. That's all anyone needs to know. Losers are always welcome.
1BB- what do you mean, when you say it's a "counter trap"?
Quote: 1BBI'm not sure. I was only at the one and they had a very sharp pit.
I second that statement. The pit there is not stupid and very perceptive to play. They definately picked up on my counting. Not only the pit, but the dealers as well. They threw in little comments here and there, asking about my play. The floor said to me, how come you took insurance, you know that's not basic strategy? Then the dealer said to me, do you always play 2 spots or just at certain times? Because I would spread to 2 spots only when the count was positive. She picked up on it.
blackjack pays 2:1
8 deck
H17
split once
DAS
double allowed only on 10 or 11
split aces (one card on each)
no surrender
insurance pays 2 to 1
player loses to a push, except on blackjack
I'm able to figure out the house edge on every rule, except I could not find a calculator that has the option that you lose on a push.
It's a +1.35% edge to the player, leaving out the "losing to a push" rule - but, once you add that in, it has to dramatically drop the edge,I would think.
Quote: stabworldCan somebody help me figure out the house edge on the following game?:
blackjack pays 2:1
8 deck
H17
split once
DAS
double allowed only on 10 or 11
split aces (one card on each)
no surrender
insurance pays 2 to 1
player loses to a push, except on blackjack
I'm able to figure out the house edge on every rule, except I could not find a calculator that has the option that you lose on a push.
It's a +1.35% edge to the player, leaving out the "losing to a push" rule - but, once you add that in, it has to dramatically drop the edge,I would think.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
Go allllll the way down to the bottom, because it is the worst possible rule. Almost 9% to the house.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicehttps://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
Go allllll the way down to the bottom, because it is the worst possible rule. Almost 9% to the house.
Wow! forget that game...
Quote: stabworld1BB- what do you mean, when you say it's a "counter trap"?
A counter trap or AP trap is a game with better rules than the majority of games in the same casino and is more closely watched. It is usually, but not exclusively, single or double deck. It will have the more experienced pit bosses and floors assigned to them. Surveillance will also get in the act. You must exercise restraint to avoid a back off.
On the subject of heat, not everything you see is going to be heat. The pit boss and floors will watch your table. They could be watching the dealer, timing the waitress or daydreaming about their next day off. Their job requires them to be on the phone for dozens of reasons. It is normal. A H17 eight deck game is just not a top priority.
If you pound any game for 15 hours and win almost $600 an hour you will attract attention. I don't know where you played but a skills check could have been ordered. You certainly gave them enough time. They may have determined that you aren't a threat or they may be waiting to take action upon your return. It's happened to me more than once.
By the way, there are S17 games outside the high limit rooms in AC.
Quote: 1BBA counter trap or AP trap is a game with better rules than the majority of games in the same casino and is more closely watched. It is usually, but not exclusively, single or double deck. It will have the more experienced pit bosses and floors assigned to them. Surveillance will also get in the act. You must exercise restraint to avoid a back off.
On the subject of heat, not everything you see is going to be heat. The pit boss and floors will watch your table. They could be watching the dealer, timing the waitress or daydreaming about their next day off. Their job requires them to be on the phone for dozens of reasons. It is normal. A H17 eight deck game is just not a top priority.
If you pound any game for 15 hours and win almost $600 an hour you will attract attention. I don't know where you played but a skills check could have been ordered. You certainly gave them enough time. They may have determined that you aren't a threat or they may be waiting to take action upon your return. It's happened to me more than once.
By the way, there are S17 games outside the high limit rooms in AC.
Thanks for sharing of experience. Yes, I'm aware of all the S17 games outside the high limit pits in all the AC casino's. Unfortunately, as you may already know, there are not too many and only a few select casino's have them.
edit to above statement: actually now that I think about it, 4 out of the now 8 remaining casino's do in fact have a S17 table outside the high pit areas. All of them being $25 tables (taj 8 deck, trop 6 deck , borgota 6 deck ) and 1 casino having a $10, $15, and $25 (resorts 8 deck).
The other casino's don't have a low limit S17, those include, the total rewards properties, (harahs, caesars, & bally's) and the golden nugget.
I thought there were less, because only 2-3 weeks ago, when the revel, trump plaza, and the showboat were opened and all a part of my regular rotation, none of those had low limit S17 games. So as a whole - less casino's - at the time - had low limit S17 tables. But, as of right now - with 8 casino's remaining, 50% of them do in fact have them.
Quote: 1BBA counter trap or AP trap is a game with better rules than the majority of games in the same casino and is more closely watched. It is usually, but not exclusively, single or double deck. It will have the more experienced pit bosses and floors assigned to them. Surveillance will also get in the act. You must exercise restraint to avoid a back off.
On the subject of heat, not everything you see is going to be heat. The pit boss and floors will watch your table. They could be watching the dealer, timing the waitress or daydreaming about their next day off. Their job requires them to be on the phone for dozens of reasons. It is normal. A H17 eight deck game is just not a top priority.
If you pound any game for 15 hours and win almost $600 an hour you will attract attention. I don't know where you played but a skills check could have been ordered. You certainly gave them enough time. They may have determined that you aren't a threat or they may be waiting to take action upon your return. It's happened to me more than once.
By the way, there are S17 games outside the high limit rooms in AC.
I never stay longer than 1 or 2 shoes in any 1 casino on the same shift for that week. I leave after any shoe in which my max bet has been exposed. I play every possible casino, on every shift, every week. I do this, so I am not a familiar face with any one pit, dealer, floor, etc. Although, I have slowly but surely became - or am becoming - a memorable face to the floor on some casino's graveyard shift -since there is not many people who play during that time.
I would be curious to learn, if somebody may know the answer to this: Does surveillance watch multiple pits?, or is there separate surveillance guys watching for each individual pit?
I ask this because, sometimes I may in the larger casino's with multiple pits and different floors, play in another pit on the same shift, even sometimes after my max bet has been exposed at the previous pit.
I been on a long down swing that feels like its never going to end. I'm down 8k this month and -5k for last month.. overall i;m still in the black by 6k, but if I have 1 more bad week in AC, i'm going to have to adjust my betting ramp and max bet to something lower to stay within the ROR i'm comfortable with.
Besides that I have 2 questions for anybody who can answer for me.
1. Lately, I have been trying to fine tune my deck estimation from 1 decks to half decks when calculating the true count.
With this, I wanted to ask, at what point or percentage of the count do you hit your hard 16 vs. the dealers ace? TC -.5 or TC -1? The index play is to stand at a TC of 0 or higher, but at what point do you take the hit? obviously it falls between TC -.0000001 and TC -1.
2. I want to start doing a side count of aces. With this new side count of aces (using the Hi-Lo count), how does this affect or change currently my index plays (fab 4 surrender ILL18, and 20 more index plays) and betting ramp structure?
Is the side count of aces worth the extra mental work for the value it will bring?
also, the shift supervisor snapped a picture of me from his cell phone right before he asked me to get up from the table with my chips,... Too late now.. but if I requested for him to delete the picture, isn't that my right? Can somebody snap a picture of me, for whatever there purpose is without my permission. ? I mean , my assumption is that he is going to keep it on file at the casino for future reference.. but I hope he's not sharing it with other casino's...
Quote: stabworldwell this certainly sucks.. been backed off on my 2nd casino... funny thing is I'm down money in this particular casino...what a nerve... they said I'm ban in the state of the casino,,,... can they do that?
also, the shift supervisor snapped a picture of me from his cell phone right before he asked me to get up from the table with my chips,... Too late now.. but if I requested for him to delete the picture, isn't that my right? Can somebody snap a picture of me, for whatever there purpose is without my permission. ? I mean , my assumption is that he is going to keep it on file at the casino for future reference.. but I hope he's not sharing it with other casino's...
I would consult with others to confirm, but I'm pretty sure if they didn't read you the trespass act that you can still go to their properties. However, I wouldn't do so for a while, and I wouldn't play rated. Your card has probably been flagged if you were using one.
I think I recall you had some crazy high spread (like 25-1 or something). You might need to reconsider this as well, at least at those properties.
Quote: stabworld
...
also, the shift supervisor snapped a picture of me from his cell phone right before he asked me to get up from the table with my chips,... Too late now.. but if I requested for him to delete the picture, isn't that my right? Can somebody snap a picture of me, for whatever there purpose is without my permission. ? I mean , my assumption is that he is going to keep it on file at the casino for future reference.. but I hope he's not sharing it with other casino's...
I don't know the particular laws of the state you're playing in (whichever it is), but in general....
When you step into a casino, anywhere, you are on camera. I would think the casinos have sewn up their right to take your picture being included in your voluntary entry onto their property a long time ago. So I would expect that a) the phone he used is a business phone issued by the casino b) your picture will go into their files associated with your player account c) your picture will be shared onto whatever security network that casino maintains with others, whether in the state, in their chain, or by agreement.
Quote: stabworldupdate to my play (to those who are interested):
I been on a long down swing that feels like its never going to end. I'm down 8k this month and -5k for last month..
Quote: stabworldwell this certainly sucks.. been backed off on my 2nd casino... funny thing is I'm down money in this particular casino...what a nerve...
Welcome to the REAL world of card counting, stabworld. :(
On losing: Card counting is easy when you are winning. It's a little different when you are losing, and I am talking about long losing periods, day after day, week after week, month after month. You count well, make all the right plays, continue to throw out you big bets when called for...and have nothing to show for it. This is where you begin to realize that card counting for a living is a little harder than just reading a couple books. This is where you find out if you are mentally strong enough.
You have to be able to withstand these LONG negative runs both mentally and financially. This is why such a large bankroll is required. And that bankroll can't have any limitations, like needing to be paid back on a certain date (time limitations), because you just don't know where in the cycle where you are going to be on that certain date. Tried to tell you that.
On backoffs: When you say you were "down money in this particular casino", I am not sure if you mean down for that day/session or down overall. But either way, in my own experience, most of my backoffs have occurred during losing sessions/days. I have come to the conclusion that casinos really enjoy pulling the plug when you happen to be in a hole. A handful of players that I network with have also had similar experiences.
But if you examine the situation analytically, instead of emotionally, the backoff more likely resulted because you showed too much information. The count went high, we threw out our larger bets because we had an advantage (showing info), but unfortunately, didn't win those hands resulting in a loss. It's really about showing the information, rather than whether you won or lost right then. And sadly, many players think that losing buys some kind of cover and will then play longer, showing more information than if they were not losing. This is completely incorrect. Losing buys you nothing. When they evaluate you, it isn't about if you are winning or losing, it is about if you are a threat.
The bottom line is that it is easy to read a book and learn how to count cards. Probably a monkey could be taught to do so. Learning how to be able to continually ply this skill and actually be allowed to play is the hard part. For me, it's all about finding the tolerance or comfort level for each situation. This varies by casino, time of day, day of week and even individual pit person. But identifying these tolerance/comfort levels has been the key to my longevity.
Still hoping it all works out for you the way you want.
Quote: kewljWelcome to the REAL world of card counting, stabworld. :(
On losing: Card counting is easy when you are winning. It's a little different when you are losing, and I am talking about long losing periods, day after day, week after week, month after month. You count well, make all the right plays, continue to throw out you big bets when called for...and have nothing to show for it. This is where you begin to realize that card counting for a living is a little harder than just reading a couple books. This is where you find out if you are mentally strong enough.
You have to be able to withstand these LONG negative runs both mentally and financially. This is why such a large bankroll is required. And that bankroll can't have any limitations, like needing to be paid back on a certain date (time limitations), because you just don't know where in the cycle where you are going to be on that certain date. Tried to tell you that.
On backoffs: When you say you were "down money in this particular casino", I am not sure if you mean down for that day/session or down overall. But either way, in my own experience, most of my backoffs have occurred during losing sessions/days. I have come to the conclusion that casinos really enjoy pulling the plug when you happen to be in a hole. A handful of players that I network with have also had similar experiences.
But if you examine the situation analytically, instead of emotionally, the backoff more likely resulted because you showed too much information. The count went high, we threw out our larger bets because we had an advantage (showing info), but unfortunately, didn't win those hands resulting in a loss. It's really about showing the information, rather than whether you won or lost right then. And sadly, many players think that losing buys some kind of cover and will then play longer, showing more information than if they were not losing. This is completely incorrect. Losing buys you nothing. When they evaluate you, it isn't about if you are winning or losing, it is about if you are a threat.
The bottom line is that it is easy to read a book and learn how to count cards. Probably a monkey could be taught to do so. Learning how to be able to continually ply this skill and actually be allowed to play is the hard part. For me, it's all about finding the tolerance or comfort level for each situation. This varies by casino, time of day, day of week and even individual pit person. But identifying these tolerance/comfort levels has been the key to my longevity.
Still hoping it all works out for you the way you want.
Thanks for the feedback kewlj. Appreciated.
Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know the particular laws of the state you're playing in (whichever it is), but in general....
When you step into a casino, anywhere, you are on camera. I would think the casinos have sewn up their right to take your picture being included in your voluntary entry onto their property a long time ago. So I would expect that a) the phone he used is a business phone issued by the casino b) your picture will go into their files associated with your player account c) your picture will be shared onto whatever security network that casino maintains with others, whether in the state, in their chain, or by agreement.
gotcha...thanks..
Quote: stabworldwell this certainly sucks.. been backed off on my 2nd casino... funny thing is I'm down money in this particular casino...what a nerve... they said I'm ban in the state of the casino,,,... can they do that?
also, the shift supervisor snapped a picture of me from his cell phone right before he asked me to get up from the table with my chips,... Too late now.. but if I requested for him to delete the picture, isn't that my right? Can somebody snap a picture of me, for whatever there purpose is without my permission. ? I mean , my assumption is that he is going to keep it on file at the casino for future reference.. but I hope he's not sharing it with other casino's...
They can't ban you from playing in the state unless your state only has publicly owned casinos all managed by the same company. If this were not true, every employee would be a government official, liable for civil rights claims under USC 1983. Though that does not apply to you, it would mean the state waived or self-abrogated it's sovereign immunity, potentially exposing itself to torts committed by the janitor. Narrower, this would at least apply to that particular individual who did the banning.
You had no expectation of privacy. It was your right to ask him to delete it. It was his right to ignore you. If you were trespassed, it is no longer your right to ask in person, though you may call. Contrary to popular belief, they don't have to read the trespass statute to you. They have to give you a minimum of constructive notice, and it appears they did. A certified letter in the mail may follow. They want you to sign for it (assuming you didn't sign something already) so they can prove beyond a doubt you had actual notice in case you become a problem. If this does not describe your situation at all, you may have just been backed off.
At least the first casino I was approached at, he said I could play blackjack, just that I have to bet the table minumim, and identify myself when I sit down to the floor as an advantage player.
