Free play doesnt last forever

Quote: AlanMendelson

When I talk about free play I'm talking about free credits that are accessed by putting a card in a machine and entering a PIN, or vouchers that you insert as if they are currency that may or may not require a players card to be in the machine. There is no playthrough requirement.

Anything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
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Normally it's a 1x playthrough.

The term turn-over/roll-over would mean something else, IE keeps my offers coming.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30

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I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.

I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.

But what really amazes me is your report:

Quote: darkoz

On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30

How can you run your "business" doing that?
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As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.

Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.

But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.

Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.

I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.

But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.

$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
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$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.

If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
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Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.

As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.

Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.

Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.

So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
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Nope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.
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Personally I wouldn’t buy anything in today’s climate. At least not at the casinos I work l. To many guys are running fake ids and doing other nonsense. Im also in the camp of oz that I would rather create the offer myself. In the past I would buy free play for 60 percent of face, but now with the countermeasures casinos are using that’s to much. At least In the regions I work. Axle probably knows ways to convert cheaply in Vegas or doesn’t have to deal with the same countermeasures casinos have put in place here. In today’s climate I would not want to introduce a card to my rotation that I didn’t know the owner. It creates a vulnerability that could potentially bring down the entire operation. Something I’m not willing to risk.
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One must go back and read the original statement regarding buying free play and the context to get what's going on here(Anyone know off hand where it can be found?)

This has slowly morphed into a bunch of afterthought reasons to justify a comment that made DO look silly.

IIRC I was Joking when I said I wouldn't play XYZ for free play (Joking, let's not drive up the price, wink wink ) DO not knowing I was joking came back with a comment in agreement that suggested free play isn't really worth much more than 50%, and that's why he wouldn't pay more. Again one must go back and read it for themselves since I don't exactly remember everything now.

Of course, you always need to be careful when making any type of deal.
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I don't know why you keep insisting I look silly.

Just a few posts ago you stated that you could guarantee at least 20% return on $5 freeplay at slots but would be willing to pay 95% of the value.

That sounds silly to me.

I also may be misquoted so to be clear I usually get back 50-80 % return on freeplay. Some days worse and some days better. Obviously I am not referring to VBJ or VP which on the East Coast is mostly disallowed. When VBJ is available I usually do a 98% return and under those circumstances I would be willing to pay more I suppose. But I am generally uncomfortable with purchasing Freeplay anyway.

If I am purchasing Freeplay it's to lock in a profit. If I pay 95% and got back 65% return that would be silly.

Even paying 60% and getting back 60% would be silly as it would be a waste of my time.

Most businesses have a do it yourself mentality. In essence if I can get my own freeplay, why do I need to purchase it from someone else?

Imagine owning a Krispy Kreme and you make your own donuts fresh and someone offers to sell you his donuts at a discount so you can save time.

That sounds silly? Yep, I thought so.

I have a team which works every month to do what needs to be done. I'm not buying freeplay and if I was to consider it, it better be really worth it. Not a 5% discount!

Finally, Axel, you sound like the patron who gets ticked off when you are offered 25% of value at a pawn shop. You probably believe pawn shops should pay 95% of value for what they buy.

It's all about locking in profit. Paying 95% in my market at least isn't doing anything but locking in a loss.

Loved

Alan I spend 40 to 60k month every month to feed the machine. You too can get free play that last forever ever by doing the same. Just be willing to work basically everyday spend countless hours traveling and pick team members with high trust over high performance. You want guys that you can trust around your wife and your money. High trust over high achievers/ performance everyday all day.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30

link to original post

I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.

I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.

But what really amazes me is your report:

Quote: darkoz

On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30

How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post

As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.

Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.

But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.

Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.

I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.

But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.

$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post

$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.

If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
link to original post

Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.

As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.

Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.

Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.

So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
link to original post

Nope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.
link to original post

Personally I wouldn’t buy anything in today’s climate. At least not at the casinos I work l. To many guys are running fake ids and doing other nonsense. Im also in the camp of oz that I would rather create the offer myself. In the past I would buy free play for 60 percent of face, but now with the countermeasures casinos are using that’s to much. At least In the regions I work. Axle probably knows ways to convert cheaply in Vegas or doesn’t have to deal with the same countermeasures casinos have put in place here. In today’s climate I would not want to introduce a card to my rotation that I didn’t know the owner. It creates a vulnerability that could potentially bring down the entire operation. Something I’m not willing to risk.
link to original post

One must go back and read the original statement regarding buying free play and the context to get what's going on here(Anyone know off hand where it can be found?)

This has slowly morphed into a bunch of afterthought reasons to justify a comment that made DO look silly.

IIRC I was Joking when I said I wouldn't play XYZ for free play (Joking, let's not drive up the price, wink wink ) DO not knowing I was joking came back with a comment in agreement that suggested free play isn't really worth much more than 50%, and that's why he wouldn't pay more. Again one must go back and read it for themselves since I don't exactly remember everything now.

Of course, you always need to be careful when making any type of deal.
link to original post

I don't know why you keep insisting I look silly.

Just a few posts ago you stated that you could guarantee at least 20% return on $5 freeplay at slots but would be willing to pay 95% of the value.

That sounds silly to me.

I also may be misquoted so to be clear I usually get back 50-80 % return on freeplay. Some days worse and some days better. Obviously I am not referring to VBJ or VP which on the East Coast is mostly disallowed. When VBJ is available I usually do a 98% return and under those circumstances I would be willing to pay more I suppose. But I am generally uncomfortable with purchasing Freeplay anyway.

If I am purchasing Freeplay it's to lock in a profit. If I pay 95% and got back 65% return that would be silly.

Even paying 60% and getting back 60% would be silly as it would be a waste of my time.

Most businesses have a do it yourself mentality. In essence if I can get my own freeplay, why do I need to purchase it from someone else?

Imagine owning a Krispy Kreme and you make your own donuts fresh and someone offers to sell you his donuts at a discount so you can save time.

That sounds silly? Yep, I thought so.

I have a team which works every month to do what needs to be done. I'm not buying freeplay and if I was to consider it, it better be really worth it. Not a 5% discount!

Finally, Axel, you sound like the patron who gets ticked off when you are offered 25% of value at a pawn shop. You probably believe pawn shops should pay 95% of value for what they buy.

It's all about locking in profit. Paying 95% in my market at least isn't doing anything but locking in a loss.
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You should reread my posts, nowhere did I say I would pay 95%if it was only playable on slots. Obviously, that would be silly.

Let's take a look at what I said...

"Now let's say a casino lets you buy as much free play as you want. I would jump at the chance to buy as much as possible for 95%. I would pay a higher percentage depending on the game selection and denominations. It would come down to the hourly rate. TBH, I would much rather buy it and have an advantage on slots, I get super bored playing standard VP. On Slots, you never worry about making mistakes and you can play super fast while zoning out until you snag a bonus round."

Quote: Seedvalue

Alan I spend 40 to 60k month every month to feed the machine. You too can get free play that last forever ever by doing the same. Just be willing to work basically everyday spend countless hours traveling and pick team members with high trust over high performance. You want guys that you can trust around your wife and your money. High trust over high achievers/ performance everyday all day.
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If I might ask, how are your "team members" compensated for their time and efforts? In other words, what is in it for them? I am going to assume that "team members" are multi-carding while playing, so what happens if one hits a "hand pay" win which would produce a W2G or create a need for an ID to receive the "hand pay"?

BTW, your post is eye opening when one considers huge amounts of free pay awards.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Seedvalue

Alan I spend 40 to 60k month every month to feed the machine. You too can get free play that last forever ever by doing the same. Just be willing to work basically everyday spend countless hours traveling and pick team members with high trust over high performance. You want guys that you can trust around your wife and your money. High trust over high achievers/ performance everyday all day.
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If I might ask, how are your "team members" compensated for their time and efforts? In other words, what is in it for them? I am going to assume that "team members" are multi-carding while playing, so what happens if one hits a "hand pay" win which would produce a W2G or create a need for an ID to receive the "hand pay"?

BTW, your post is eye opening when one considers huge amounts of free pay awards.

tuttigym
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I can't speak for Seedvalue but I have a set amount of pay for different operations. My people know what to expect.

As far as jackpot payment, they ask the casino to take out their taxes at time of pay and then whatever they win beyond that is mine. But they benefit at tax time as it usually helps their annual return.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Seedvalue

Alan I spend 40 to 60k month every month to feed the machine. You too can get free play that last forever ever by doing the same. Just be willing to work basically everyday spend countless hours traveling and pick team members with high trust over high performance. You want guys that you can trust around your wife and your money. High trust over high achievers/ performance everyday all day.
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If I might ask, how are your "team members" compensated for their time and efforts? In other words, what is in it for them? I am going to assume that "team members" are multi-carding while playing, so what happens if one hits a "hand pay" win which would produce a W2G or create a need for an ID to receive the "hand pay"?

BTW, your post is eye opening when one considers huge amounts of free pay awards.

tuttigym
link to original post

I can't speak for Seedvalue but I have a set amount of pay for different operations. My people know what to expect.

As far as jackpot payment, they ask the casino to take out their taxes at time of pay and then whatever they win beyond that is mine. But they benefit at tax time as it usually helps their annual return.
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What do they do about an ID to match the player's card?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Seedvalue

Alan I spend 40 to 60k month every month to feed the machine. You too can get free play that last forever ever by doing the same. Just be willing to work basically everyday spend countless hours traveling and pick team members with high trust over high performance. You want guys that you can trust around your wife and your money. High trust over high achievers/ performance everyday all day.
link to original post

If I might ask, how are your "team members" compensated for their time and efforts? In other words, what is in it for them? I am going to assume that "team members" are multi-carding while playing, so what happens if one hits a "hand pay" win which would produce a W2G or create a need for an ID to receive the "hand pay"?

BTW, your post is eye opening when one considers huge amounts of free pay awards.

tuttigym
link to original post

I can't speak for Seedvalue but I have a set amount of pay for different operations. My people know what to expect.

As far as jackpot payment, they ask the casino to take out their taxes at time of pay and then whatever they win beyond that is mine. But they benefit at tax time as it usually helps their annual return.
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What do they do about an ID to match the player's card?
link to original post

Different properties handle this situation different. Some check the computer for name of card inserted. Some will ask questions if noticed. Some will remain silent and just pin lock the card that was inserted or no mail.

However believe it or not those are more the exception. Most don't even bother to check. They aren't looking for multicarding. They are looking to pay a customer who just won a jackpot and who they are congratulating as a good paying customer.

So at most places it's a non issue.

For those places that prove problematic there are two solutions.

One: don't play any games more than $2-3 a spin. Then jackpots become more rare.

Two: if a jackpot is hit, then be vocal when the attendant comes over. Volunteer that you sat down and played unrated and didn't notice someone left their card in the machine by accident. That person just came by and realized they left it in and retrieved it.

This way when they see the other name in the computer, they will hopefully overlook the issue.

If you are asking if there are any issues with actually getting paid when another player card was in the machine that's 100% a zerosum question. It's never an issue.

I am unaware of any gambling venue where the "person who pushes the button" isn't automatically the person who won the jackpot. Casinos MUST pay or deal with the casino control commission or local enforcement.

Imagine if you genuinely did sit down and win a jackpot and didn't notice someone genuinely left their card in and now the casino refused to pay? It would be pandemonium if that was how they did their business because people forgetting their players cards is actually quite common. People are angry or excited and genuinely jump out their seat and forget.

The power of the "person who pushes the button" rule is so strong that even if the jackpot is won using someone else's Freeplay, the casino MUST pay the person who pushes the button. Although, expect the card to have offers wiped the next visit.

I arrived at the casino with 5 minutes to spare before the midnight deadline to play the kiosk game. This time there was a Beehive Game on the kiosk and I get to pick one of 7 honeycombs to reveal my free play win. So there's a 6 out of 7 chance I won't pick the minimum payout. I won the minimum payout. This is looking totally rigged to me after too many minimum payouts. The other honeycombs light up showing what I could have won if I picked them, no other minimum payments on the screen. I think they default the minimum payment, then figure out how to make it look like I could have won more by picking another, but if I picked that other, it would have been the minimum payment also. So, noting I have $50 in points on my card and $40 of free play, I went to the other side of the casino to get an iced soda and walk past the $15 craps table and sit down at the VP slot machine. I figure I'm going to just play to 1 session point tonight. I start with 160 credits, a few minutes in I hit a straight flush for 50 coins. I've played over 10,000 hands of the home game and never hit a straight flush! A few minutes later I hit quad Aces for 160 coins on Double Double Bonus VP. So I'm up to over $85 and just waiting to hit another quads or hitting session point number 1. At about 20 minutes in I hit session point number 1 and cash out $80. I cash out to the nearest $5 on my downward spiral so the ATM/Voucher machine will pay me $5, $10, & $20 bills and no change.

So that's 160 coin-in plus a 50 coin straight flush JP plus a 160 coin quad Aces JP minus 50 coins of loss for the <200 hands.
Multiply by 5 for 5-coin play, it'd be a $200 free play (800 coins) plus 250 coins straight flush plus $200+ quad Aces (it was a progressive but not much more than the minimum) minus 250 coins for the loss over <200 hands. A cash-out of $400+.

If I didn't hit those 2 jackpots, I would have cashed out at 100 coins or $25 (-$15); or 540 coins at 5-coin play for $135 (-$65).

Remember when you were four years old and you were eating cookies from the jar? You heard your mom coming and just sat there with the cookies in your hands?

Then your mom asked if you ate the cookies from the jar and you said you didn't know even when the cookies were still visible in your hand?

You learned to not make that mistake again. Now when you hear your mom coming you hide the evidence.

Some adults think that's a major secret.

My four year old knows how to hide evidence when the powers that be are approaching..

Major trade secrets, LMAO.

Quote: darkoz

My four year old knows how to hide evidence when the powers that be are approaching..

Major trade secrets, LMAO.
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Is Ozling hosting classes?
Dieterling has not yet managed this. Useful, but disappointing.

I'm noticing a disturbing trend in changing rooms at department stores and bathrooms at big stores being used for livestreaming porn. I'm sure if guys did that, security would be all over them in no time flat, but the females, well, let the show go on!

I just got my September mailer and my weekly free plays have been reduced from $40 back down to $10. I've got 2 more trips this month with the $40 free plays, then it's back to the grind. It's not even an incentive to visit now. It costs more than half that in gas just for the trip.
I'll have to put my focus back on the Bubble Craps and save what I won on VP for a rainy day or for when my offers go back to $40 or higher.

Quote: ChumpChange

I'm noticing a disturbing trend in changing rooms at department stores and bathrooms at big stores being used for livestreaming porn. I'm sure if guys did that, security would be all over them in no time flat, but the females, well, let the show go on!
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I haven’t had any problems… The trick is hiding the tripod in the trench coat. People think it’s a sawed-off shotgun and give me a wide berth. Could also be the anaconda gets loose sometimes…

Ahem.

Rules 6 and 7 say to keep it PG and to keep it on topic.

Please consider yourselves duly cautioned.

My 2nd to last $40 free play of the month had me winning a 50 coin quads and coming out even after losing 50 coins over <200 hands at somewhere in my 1st session point.
Unfortunately, my Bubble Craps session was a complete bust and I lost my $135 buy-in of 15X PL + Odds winning bets ($9 x 15). The bubble craps platform was getting more and more aggressive with its shaking as time went on such that I wasn't even pushing the button anymore. I should reconsider playing the Do-side because most sessions have started out severely negative and it takes a hot shooter or three to claw back to even. If I play the Don't side until I lose the odds bet once or twice per shooter then switch sides, I might have better luck.

Monday morning $5 free play at Suncoast.

Suncoast has removed at least 20 machines with 8/5 Bonus Poker, so I found myself playing 7/5.

Cashed out $5 after hitting paying pairs.

Now to Red Rock for $10 of free play.

Edited to add:

Got lucky at Red Rock. Hit quad aces on 8/5 bonus.

My last $40 Free Play of the month before I get reduced back to $10 per qualifying visit. I found a new bank of machines that I've been avoiding that has 9/6 Double Double Bonus at the 25 cent denomination on it (still only has 8/5 JoB). So I loaded my $40 onto that. I lost 60 coins down to 100 credits, then I was dealt quad 4's for an 80 coin jackpot at the 1 coin per hand bet level. Thinking back on it, was a kicker card involved and did I discard it, or was I playing a variant machine that didn't care about kicker cards? Now I wonder what game I was playing. It could have been a bastardized version of Double Double Bonus. It clearly said quad 2, 3, 4's, so it wasn't Bonus Deluxe Poker. I think I had a 10 kicker and I discarded it for a Queen, so no 160 coin payout. I still had a couple dozen hands left to play but hung tough around 180 credits and cashed out $45. I didn't get any Full Houses.

Then I went to play Bubble Craps and started Day 2 of my 2nd session of a $135 buy-in. I lost 10+ PL points very quickly and was down $90. I switched it up to stop betting odds ($3, $4, $5) and doubling my PL bet to $6, and at certain balance points I would press my bets a little (to $8, or $12). I made it back to $135 with about 13+ wins on the PL, but that was after everybody else had left the table. I don't really welcome other people to the machine when I'm playing alone and other people tend to leave the machine when I'm rolling point 7-outs non-stop. My session money would go way up if I was betting the DP for all those early 7-outs when others are at the table. I just hate betting against myself when it's my turn to shoot, and really I'm bringing the whole table down.

Chump Change do you think you have a chance at influencing the dice in bubble craps?

Bubble Craps - I just "HIT THE BUTTON!" I can't control how the dice are gonna tumble or ricochet. But I avoid hitting the button when the dice total is 7 after the point is established, and I hit the button when the dice total is 7 on the Come-outs. If the point is 5, I try to hit the button when the dice total is 5 while they're tumbling, which would usually be just a fraction of a second, and then hope for a 5. The dice have 15 seconds to bounce around and many times I never hit the button, I just let it time-out and let it auto-hit the button. If I'm waiting for a specific number to appear for a fraction of a second, it could be 3-6 rolls before it does, so I'll pick another number that isn't a 7 to hit the button on. The machine will time out with a 7 upside and I'll run a higher risk of rolling a 7. The longer into the 15 second timer I go, the more aggressive the dice platform shakes the dice. So I'll hit the button to avoid timing-out with a 7 on top. By that time, the dice are hitting the ceiling inside the enclosure and rolling all around when the button hits, so it is truly a random roll. I'd say I'm at the "set the dice" stage and the dealer's are getting antsy when I take 14 seconds to throw the dice, except I can never truly set the dice in this game, but I wouldn't play it blindfolded either. Other players may object to what I do and walk away. When I play alone, I have multiple turns to get the dice rolling my way. When others are at the table, I'm constantly picking up where they left off and there's little continuity.

Quote: ChumpChange

If the point is 5, I try to hit the button when the dice total is 5 while they're tumbling, which would usually be just a fraction of a second, and then hope for a 5.
link to original post

So you're a Bubble Craps Dice-timing Influencer?

Since you're making up new names, that seems apt.
It's got to be exhausting on the eyes though.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ChumpChange

If the point is 5, I try to hit the button when the dice total is 5 while they're tumbling, which would usually be just a fraction of a second, and then hope for a 5.
link to original post

So you're a Bubble Craps Dice-timing Influencer?
link to original post

He’s attempting to out a play and indirectly trolling everyone who is not aware of the play. Most likely because the machines have been removed or fixed in his area. Rather then traveling to find a machine that is till good he decides to stay home and now out the play indirectly online is my guess.

Standard par for the course in today’s advantage play climate.

The machine has been around since 2009. I'm terribly late to this party. Ask me what I did last night, this is my answer. Go play the machine for 100+ hours and see what you think.

i used to love playing e-Craps.
place bets paid to the cent so no need to bet in multiples of $6 on 6/8.
plus no late bettors slowing the game down.

then my casino doubled the coin-in needed for a point for all the e-Games (e-Craps, e-BJ, e-Roulette, e-Sic Bo, e-Baccarat).
from $2 per tier point (same as vp) to $4 per tier point.

Note:
e-Craps and e-Sic Bo used the same dice.
3 dice get rolled (2 white, 1 black). The black doesnt count in e-Craps

Quote: ChumpChange

The machine has been around since 2009. I'm terribly late to this party. Ask me what I did last night, this is my answer. Go play the machine for 100+ hours and see what you think.
link to original post

I’m Well aware of many different vulnerabilities from different manufacturers, and in different gaming jurisdictions. I just spent two months on one such game. I suspect you know a lot that should not be posted here.

I wouldn't call it a vulnerability, it's the game. I don't know of any vulnerabilities except the dice getting stuck and having to call over the attendant to turn a key and dislodge the dice, or people not cashing out their last one sub-dollar amount and they become the shooter while away from the machine until 15 seconds is over then it passes on. I'm currently a bit dissatisfied with the dice rolling lopsidedly, and the dice should be replaced.

Crazy day with $15 of free play at Red Rock.

I decided not to play my usual 25-cent 8/5 Bonus because the craps tables were jammed and I knew I'd have to kill some time.

So I played my $15 on 5-cent 6/5 Bonus.

I hit quad aces twice ($20 each) and then a royal for $200. I had other quads too... 2s and 4s and 10s and Ks and Qs.... I thought about moving up to the 25-cent level but I figured more big hands wouldn't be coming.

I cashed out $250 after I hit the royal.

Then the craps table opened up. I played for several hours. One player hit the ALL, I hit several sides during the session but no ALL for me.

I had a comped lunch. Then played a little more craps. Two players were only one number away from the ALL.
One player only needed to throw a ten. Another player only needed the 5.

After I cashed out at the cage I thought I'd try a different VP machine. This time at 25-cents and I put only $10 in the machine.

$10 was all I needed.

I was dealt 8888 on my second hand. To make a long story short... got quad aces two more times for $100 each. Cashed out another $250 and left.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Crazy day with $15 of free play at Red Rock.

I decided not to play my usual 25-cent 8/5 Bonus because the craps tables were jammed and I knew I'd have to kill some time.

So I played my $15 on 5-cent 6/5 Bonus.

I hit quad aces twice ($20 each) and then a royal for $200. I had other quads too... 2s and 4s and 10s and Ks and Qs.... I thought about moving up to the 25-cent level but I figured more big hands wouldn't be coming.

I cashed out $250 after I hit the royal.

Then the craps table opened up. I played for several hours. One player hit the ALL, I hit several sides during the session but no ALL for me.

I had a comped lunch. Then played a little more craps. Two players were only one number away from the ALL.
One player only needed to throw a ten. Another player only needed the 5.

After I cashed out at the cage I thought I'd try a different VP machine. This time at 25-cents and I put only $10 in the machine.

$10 was all I needed.

I was dealt 8888 on my second hand. To make a long story short... got quad aces two more times for $100 each. Cashed out another $250 and left.
link to original post

Congrats on your really good day but I don't feel your reporting is totally proper.

What I mean is the freeplay turnaround is and should be the only part of the report.

You turned over $15 of Freeplay. How much AS SOON AS THE FREEPLAY WAS FINISHED did you end with?

All the rest, your craps Play, your return to VP after the cashier visit, is just you gambling with your own cash and if you subtract the $15 Freeplay, you really are just describing a fun but normal day at the casino.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Crazy day with $15 of free play at Red Rock.

I decided not to play my usual 25-cent 8/5 Bonus because the craps tables were jammed and I knew I'd have to kill some time.

So I played my $15 on 5-cent 6/5 Bonus.

I hit quad aces twice ($20 each) and then a royal for $200. I had other quads too... 2s and 4s and 10s and Ks and Qs.... I thought about moving up to the 25-cent level but I figured more big hands wouldn't be coming.

I cashed out $250 after I hit the royal.

Then the craps table opened up. I played for several hours. One player hit the ALL, I hit several sides during the session but no ALL for me.

I had a comped lunch. Then played a little more craps. Two players were only one number away from the ALL.
One player only needed to throw a ten. Another player only needed the 5.

After I cashed out at the cage I thought I'd try a different VP machine. This time at 25-cents and I put only $10 in the machine.

$10 was all I needed.

I was dealt 8888 on my second hand. To make a long story short... got quad aces two more times for $100 each. Cashed out another $250 and left.
link to original post

Congrats on your really good day but I don't feel your reporting is totally proper.

What I mean is the freeplay turnaround is and should be the only part of the report.

You turned over $15 of Freeplay. How much AS SOON AS THE FREEPLAY WAS FINISHED did you end with?

All the rest, your craps Play, your return to VP after the cashier visit, is just you gambling with your own cash and if you subtract the $15 Freeplay, you really are just describing a fun but normal day at the casino.
link to original post

Overall,Alan probably gives up more value playing than the free is worth. That's exactly the reason they give free play. I think 90-something percent give up or have given up significantly more than the value of their free play. That's the reason they send it in the first place.

After just one $100 bet on Big Red, you’ve already given up more than $15 in value. $15 goes quickly

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?
link to original post

I'm not asking for a blanket value of your $15 freeplay.

The value is the easiest thing to report in what has become a regular basis

Day one, had $15 freeplay, finished it had $7.25.

That's the value period.

It's when you veer off and say, $15 freeplay, stuck it in, couldn't stop playing until it turned into $700 that you are not giving the value any longer.

You didn't win $700 from your $15 freeplay according to your reporting. You won a nice amount (interestingly not reported) and then your addiction was such you couldn't stop even after cashing out at the cashier but you got lucky and won using cash.

If the whole point of this Freeplay thread is about emotional value of Freeplay, one simple post could have said it all.

"The value of Freeplay is whether I win or lose my wagers I am using someone else's money and not the cash in my pocket and that feels good. Win or lose, I never lose because I don't pull anything out of my pocket. I get high off that!!!"

Okay done. Mods close this thread please!

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?
link to original post

Variance lol

The 2nd $10 deposit could have just as easily been the next day's free play and he hit some luck with it. I don't see it as out of line. His first free play, he hit a Royal which is absolute bonkers then he hit a multitude of quads after that because he had 4000 credits left to play with. I don't see anything wrong with the two reports and if he wants to throw some color in about his craps session, that's OK too. He gets to tell the story the way he wants. If he has answers to your questions, he'll get to them. But I don't think he was finishing up at the 1st session point after hitting a Royal.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?
link to original post

I'm not asking for a blanket value of your $15 freeplay.

The value is the easiest thing to report in what has become a regular basis

Day one, had $15 freeplay, finished it had $7.25.

That's the value period.

It's when you veer off and say, $15 freeplay, stuck it in, couldn't stop playing until it turned into $700 that you are not giving the value any longer.

You didn't win $700 from your $15 freeplay according to your reporting. You won a nice amount (interestingly not reported) and then your addiction was such you couldn't stop even after cashing out at the cashier but you got lucky and won using cash.

If the whole point of this Freeplay thread is about emotional value of Freeplay, one simple post could have said it all.

"The value of Freeplay is whether I win or lose my wagers I am using someone else's money and not the cash in my pocket and that feels good. Win or lose, I never lose because I don't pull anything out of my pocket. I get high off that!!!"

Okay done. Mods close this thread please!
link to original post

If you recall I did not use this free play as I normally do. I was killing time waiting for the craps tables to open up.

Gee, did I commit a crime?

Why are you asking the mods to close this thread? I never asked for your threads to be closed.

I think it's interesting to track casino offers as they have changed since Covid. Of course I'm just a little guy, not running an enterprise with dozens of players cards that don't belong to me.

But if this forum is only about huge enterprises recruiting players and using others players cards seeded with $60,000 of play then I apologize and I don't belong here.

I'm just a low level player out for a good time.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?
link to original post

I'm not asking for a blanket value of your $15 freeplay.

The value is the easiest thing to report in what has become a regular basis

Day one, had $15 freeplay, finished it had $7.25.

That's the value period.

It's when you veer off and say, $15 freeplay, stuck it in, couldn't stop playing until it turned into $700 that you are not giving the value any longer.

You didn't win $700 from your $15 freeplay according to your reporting. You won a nice amount (interestingly not reported) and then your addiction was such you couldn't stop even after cashing out at the cashier but you got lucky and won using cash.

If the whole point of this Freeplay thread is about emotional value of Freeplay, one simple post could have said it all.

"The value of Freeplay is whether I win or lose my wagers I am using someone else's money and not the cash in my pocket and that feels good. Win or lose, I never lose because I don't pull anything out of my pocket. I get high off that!!!"

Okay done. Mods close this thread please!
link to original post

If you recall I did not use this free play as I normally do. I was killing time waiting for the craps tables to open up.

Gee, did I commit a crime?

Why are you asking the mods to close this thread? I never asked for your threads to be closed.

I think it's interesting to track casino offers as they have changed since Covid. Of course I'm just a little guy, not running an enterprise with dozens of players cards that don't belong to me.

But if this forum is only about huge enterprises recruiting players and using others players cards seeded with $60,000 of play then I apologize and I don't belong here.

I'm just a low level player out for a good time.
link to original post

Multiple cards play is dead gamble it up that’s the only way to win now

I'll defend Alan here too. I don't see Mdawg-ish type boasting . Block the thread if you don't want to be tempted to view it.

the only thing I'll say is that it is much more appropriate to make these posts blogposts. Yeah, not everybody looks at the blogs. If a member doesn't like that, then I question just how much attention he craves. Time for self-examination.

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

I'm a semi retired 70 year old who likes to play craps and get a meal in the casino. And while there are no offers of free play for craps I get 5, 10 or 15 bucks as a token incentive to show up at the casino and play a machine.

Of course the casino is hoping I'll put a 20 or 2 in the machine to keep playing.

It's the same reason they used to give free buffets before Covid.

There's no value.

Its entertainment.

This is the difference between people who play for fun and you number crunchers.

Do you number crunchers enjoy what you do? Or do you break out in a sweat when that devil variance squeezes your nuts?
link to original post

I have no issue with how you use your free play or your "trip report". I was just responding to DO's post.

Firstly I had zero faith the mods would close your thread and I hope they took it as a joke.

Apparently you were unable to see the humor.

As for the reporting I am not telling you to stop. I am saying that this was a freeplay experiment and you are not reporting about Freeplay.

So as with all experimenting, once you introduce factors that cloud the results, then those results are garbage.

In particular I take umbrage that you claim you ran your $15 Freeplay into several hundred. Sure if you hit a hundreds of dollars jackpot it could happen. It's happened to me.

If you had said you won $200 before the $15 freeplay was finished and then decided to roll with it. Fine!

But I don't consider you turned $15 Freeplay into several hundred. You turned the CASH from the Freeplay into several hundred thanks to a lucky streak

Look, I understand it looks like I am being a stickler but the value of freeplay is the guarantee of profit, plain and simple. If I have $100 freeplay and I gamble ONLY the Freeplay, guaranteed I am walking out with cash!!!!

Walking out with cash every time!!!!

Once I start giving into the addiction (and I will admit even I have succumbed occasionally with both good and bad results) then I have given up the edge, given up the entire point of the Freeplay.

So, if you are going to responsibly report on the results from your Freeplay then you should do so. Separate what is freeplay results from plain old gambling.

My story is when I was homeless in 2012, a casino gave me $10 in freeplay as a new member. It started my whole career. I can WITH ALL HONESTY say "$10 Freeplay turned into millions of dollars!"

That is of course if I wish to say that using your methodology. I really and honestly did. That $60,000 investment for the players cards at Valley forge you keep pointing too as proof how expensive my endeavors are, yes, but that $60,000 first came from prior Freeplay!!!

Everything from the moment I stepped off the train, homeless to walk into Resorts World Casino in January 2012, every penny I have earned, spent and enjoyed came from that $10 freeplay

I didn't invest $60,000 at the valley forge, therefore, I just had variance from the decade long trip report of my initial $10 freeplay.

But that's not the way you would want me to report my Freeplay experience, correct? You would want me to show what I won from freeplay versus straight up gambling.

The title of the thread is Freeplay doesn't last forever. And you aren't even answering your own thread question. You are just reporting variance handing you a good time.

Sorry if it seems I am being hypercritical but this is my area of expertise (Freeplay) and I feel the need to point out distinctions.

Quote: darkoz

Firstly I had zero faith the mods would close your thread and I hope they took it as a joke.
link to original post

I cannot speak to the mindset of the aggregate moderator pool.
I haven't seen anyone running for the big red thread closure lever.


As to the reported realized value of freeplay, I personally agree it is more useful to separate the proceeds of freeplay from other results when reporting.
(My last trip, $15 freeplay, got about $9 for it, then foolishly stuck in another $15 of my own cash money, and lost all but 15 cents. Good times!)

Just to be clear for DO and others, the other posts in this thread were about running my free play thru once and cashing out.

This latest report was different.

I accept your whipping.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Just to be clear for DO and others, the other posts in this thread were about running my free play thru once and cashing out.

This latest report was different.

I accept your whipping.
link to original post

Appreciated.

And I apologise if I came down hard.

With writing your thoughts the other person may hear it differently than intended in their head so if it seemed harsh, that wasn't the intent.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're asking about value of playing $15 of free play?

Gosh you've got me stumped. What's value?

...
There's no value.
...
link to original post

I'm not asking for a blanket value of your $15 freeplay.

The value is the easiest thing to report in what has become a regular basis

Day one, had $15 freeplay, finished it had $7.25.
...
Okay done. Mods close this thread please!
link to original post

Of course, Freeplay has value
Value = Face value - Wagering Requirement x House Edge of the game.

Example:
If they give you Face Value of $15 freeplay and say you must wager it through ten times before you can cash out, then WR = 10x$15=$150. If you play it on a 95%RTP Slot with house edge of 5% ...

Value=15 - (150 x 0.05) = $7.50

Now, if the wagering requirements were 30x bonus,
Value=15 - (450 x 0.05) = -$7.50

I.e. Freeplay can have negative value. Most casinos pitch Freeplay at low positive value, assuming they will entice you to spend a little of your own funds.

That you might parlay your freeplay up to $1000's is irrelevant to it's value

Quote: OnceDear

0

Now, if the wagering requirements were 30x bonus,
Value=15 - (450 x 0.05) = -$7.50

Im no math expert, but that doesn't seem correct to me. How can you have a negative situation on free play? You are going to either end up with something or zero.

I'm not talking about the act of earning it, I'm talking about the value after the fact. Let's assume there is no prior play, it's just free play given for free that has a significant amount of wagering requirement. Certainly, that can't be worth -$7:50.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: OnceDear

0

Now, if the wagering requirements were 30x bonus,
Value=15 - (450 x 0.05) = -$7.50

Im no math expert, but that doesn't seem correct to me. How can you have a negative situation on free play? You are going to either end up with something or zero.

I'm not talking about the act of earning it, I'm talking about the value after the fact. Let's assume there is no prior play, it's just free play given for free that has a significant amount of wagering requirement. Certainly, that can't be worth -$7:50.
link to original post

Interesting point. You are right.

I was thinking of an online situation where the free play was a bonus, contingent on a buy in, where any attempt to cash out real money would result in forfeiture of any outstanding bonus balance.

In the case of free play offered after the event of some real play, you had already paid a price of the vig on your real play. It was a sunk cost by the time the free play was awarded. That cost might have been higher than the residual converted value of the bonus.

I've been supplementing my free play with cash at the start of a session. I get a $10 free play and add $10 cash to it, or I get $40 of free play and add $10 or $20 of cash to it. I'm trying to make a real mini-session out of it.
I'm looking at Slotmassacre's videos and starting to draw some sense to his play as relates to small free play sessions such as mine. If he has a $10,000 buy-in and bets $25 denom at 5 coins or $125 per hand, that'd be an 80 hand buy-in. Can he expect to hit quads before losing all of his money? I've lost all my money on 160 - 240 hand buy-ins on free play.
Playing the home game, I'm losing 10 cents per hand at $1.25 per hand. Multiply by 100 and I'd be losing $10 per hand on a $25 denom machine. Multiply by 10,000 hands, I'd be losing $100,000, so I'd be in desperate need of a Royal that pays $100,000 at that point.
How much free play do I need to play 10,000 hands? It depends on the denom. But I need $1,000 at $1.25 per hand or $200 at 25 cents per hand.

From what I've seen Slotmassacre plays few hands at $25 or $50 per coin.

Most of his play ranges from $1 to $2.

Slotmassacre has a hard time sticking to one denom in any session. But lately he's on his Free Play Tour, with less than $1,000 buy-ins at each casino. If I were him, I'd be playing 25 cent with 5 coins for Free Plays of $300+. If he gets a $200 Free Play, I'd add $100 of my own money to make it a $300 buy-in.

This is what I was watching last night and what Slotmassacre was playing 1 year ago. He could have won $400K on a Royal, but he's getting hand pays for 3 of a kind.
He had a lot more luck than I've ever had in any session. He's playing Bonus Poker which pays 2 for 1 on 2 Pair, so that's a game I should watch for.
Fantastic $500 hand High Limit Video Poker session. - Aug 31, 2021 - Slotmassacre - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZO9svlyS1U