lilredrooster
lilredrooster
Joined: May 8, 2015
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May 30th, 2022 at 6:53:29 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson



Wendover at their $5 table with no setting allowed.



that's kinna interesting - I've never heard of "no setting allowed" before

so, the casino actually believes the player can get an edge by setting the dice and this rule is to prevent that_______?



I don't actually play craps - jut fool around on the Wiz's online craps - and enjoy analyzing various strategies

.
"𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘭𝘧 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘴𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘯𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳"______Edgar Allan Poe
kewlj
kewlj
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May 30th, 2022 at 10:41:22 AM permalink
Alan, you have every right to be a bit annoyed that some of these guys are only telling part of their stories. (Don't get excited Mods, I am not talking about you know who).

If someone is going to reveal a play like Darkoz had, he should reveal the entire cost of the play. Not doing so just is not very honest. For years some of these guys didn't want to talk about the free play bonanza (especially using multiple cards) and that was fine, but don't tell half the story. I think this can be talked about now. There IS an initial cost to this play. And that is a large coin-in play that initiates the offers. I don't know why they are leaving this out. The offers that roll in for up to 6 months are worth much more than the cost of that initial coin in.

I have used this play, albeit, a much smaller level than I am now learning some of these guys played for my first 10 years in Vegas, to supplement my blackjack play and income. I did so because I was convinced by another AP that not taking advantage of these disproportionately lucrative mail offers was leaving money on the table.

So here is how it worked for me at my lower level. The play starts with a big coin in. I decided what I wanted that amount to be and when I hit it, I was done. No wiggle room. No extra play (because it is initially -EV). I wanted to hit the target that would generate the offers I was looking for and that is it.

So then a month, or 2 months at some locations, the mailer offers would start rolling in. At my prime I was getting 30 mailers a month and another 10 -12 in my partners name. Usually for 2 months, I would get the top amount of free play that I was looking for, followed by 2 months at about half that and then 2 months reduced even more (maybe a quarter of the first two months). The offers would continue to go down but I wasn't interested after that third reduction. At that point it wasn't worth it to chase these smaller amounts all over the city, so that is whn I would hit another large coin-in and start the cycle all over again. For me, the totality of the free play was 4-5 times the cost of that initial coin in. But only if you were disciplined enough to stick to the target and only play the free play amounts. Any "extra" play would eat into the who thing considerably.

So that is it. Unless I am missing something, these other guys are/were just doing much larger amounts than I was. I was just supplementing my main AP income from blackjack. I also hated doing this. I don't enjoy and kind of machine play. And I hated taking time away from what I really moved to Vegas for, to play blackjack. As soon as I could, I pushed this play off on my partner and he handled all our play which we split. He passed away at just the time Vegas casinos began tightening up on mailer offers (lead by Boyd with others to follow). There are still a couple good places. I am down to 3 or 4, well 2 or 3 individual casinos plus one chain. I suppose there are a few more if I looked.

But what I have learned from these discussions on both forums is that other parts of the country have not yet caugh up to Vegas in reducing these mailer offers. That in no surprise, like with 6:5 blackjack and hit soft 21 blackjack and reduced VP paytables, Vegas seems to lead the way on these cuts or negative things and the rest of the country follows.

So you are absolutely correct Alan, there is a cost that isn't being shared for whatever reason.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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May 30th, 2022 at 10:58:05 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AlanMendelson



Wendover at their $5 table with no setting allowed.



that's kinna interesting - I've never heard of "no setting allowed" before

so, the casino actually believes the player can get an edge by setting the dice and this rule is to prevent that_______?



I don't actually play craps - jut fool around on the Wiz's online craps - and enjoy analyzing various strategies

.
link to original post



There is a sign on the table at Peppermill that says "no setting"

I was barred from playing at MGM and NYNY for setting. And I did not delay the game. And while this forum does not believe setting has any value it does have a value with a controlled throw.

With an uncontrolled throw setting has no value.

At Bellagio years ago I was in a heated argument with a table crew over my controlled throw. But it was a legal throw with both dice hitting the back Wall. Management later apologized to me for the problem with the crew.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:08:03 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

So you are absolutely correct Alan, there is a cost that isn't being shared for whatever reason.
link to original post



(quote truncated)

I, for one, am not getting my nose out of joint.
Saying that there is an initiating play requirement is probably not a secret.
Saying that playing exactly $17 (example only; change some numbers and maybe add a zero or 3) with some other suggestions could be leaking the secret sauce.
May the cards fall in your favor.
kewlj
kewlj
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:08:37 AM permalink
So this dice setting technique that you do and believe in, that has netted you how much profit Alan? I mean THAT is really the bottom line isn't it?
darkoz
darkoz
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:21:47 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Alan, you have every right to be a bit annoyed that some of these guys are only telling part of their stories. (Don't get excited Mods, I am not talking about you know who).

If someone is going to reveal a play like Darkoz had, he should reveal the entire cost of the play. Not doing so just is not very honest. For years some of these guys didn't want to talk about the free play bonanza (especially using multiple cards) and that was fine, but don't tell half the story. I think this can be talked about now. There IS an initial cost to this play. And that is a large coin-in play that initiates the offers. I don't know why they are leaving this out.

So you are absolutely correct Alan, there is a cost that isn't being shared for whatever reason.
link to original post



I understand not everyone has time to read everything I write so I forgive you for any oversight.

I have been quite up front with seed money costs.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling-outside-vegas/atlantic-city/36900-gn-ac-vs-darkoz/30/

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
BillHasRetired
BillHasRetired
Joined: May 7, 2022
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:32:00 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster



that's kinna interesting - I've never heard of "no setting allowed" before

so, the casino actually believes the player can get an edge by setting the dice and this rule is to prevent that_______?

link to original post



AlHanbra Casino, Aruba, 2008--I got tossed off the only open table (only had one other player, too) because I was setting dice and lofting them. It was a $5 table too. It was all so bogus. I certainly wasn't slowing down the game, and soon after I was tossed, the other player left leaving zero craps action in the entire place. Good job, pit boss.

Browned me off to that place for the rest of the vacation, which actually turned out to be a good thing. After all, I was there with my family, and didn't go specifically to gamble, so...they lost any action I'd give them, and I spent more time with the fam.
kewlj
kewlj
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:32:11 AM permalink
I only have a minute as I am heading out to play today, still taking advantage of holiday weekend crowds for cover, one last session.

I don't want to get into a big bru-ha with you over this darkoz, but when you claim you "made" 20k on some particular week from free play, I don't beleive you calculated the initial cost of the large coin in did you? And that cost btw, would be in expectation (EV) not whether you or whoever put through the initial coin-in won or lost....THAT is just variance.

I think most of us, especially anyone who has done any variation of this play, even at lower levels like myself, understood this. But obviously to someone like Alan, they don't understand and I think that is because you were intentionally vague about this initial coin-in (or seed money as you call it).

It's all good though. I have said my piece on this. Happy Memorail Day to all and bless those who served protecting and promoting the way of life that I so enjoy.
darkoz
darkoz
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May 30th, 2022 at 11:37:04 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I only have a minute as I am heading out to play today, still taking advantage of holiday weekend crowds for cover, one last session.

I don't want to get into a big bru-ha with you over this darkoz, but when you claim you "made" 20k on some particular week from free play, I don't beleive you calculated the initial cost of the large coin in did you? And that cost btw, would be in expectation (EV) not whether you or whoever put through the initial coin-in won or lost....THAT is just variance.

I think most of us, especially anyone who has done any variation of this play, even at lower levels like myself, understood this. But obviously to someone like Alan, they don't understand and I think that is because you were intentionally vague about this initial coin-in (or seed money as you call it).

It's all good though. I have said my piece on this. Happy Memorail Day to all and bless those who served protecting and promoting the way of life that I so enjoy.
link to original post



The only brouhaha is that you are commenting on what I didn't mention or misconstrued without reading the link (labeled part 13 on that page).

I spelled out pretty much everything you say I am guilty of not spelling out.

So yes that would create a brouhaha with me. Simply read part 13 when you have the time and then return to this conversation.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
Joined: May 8, 2015
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May 30th, 2022 at 12:54:28 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster



that's kinna interesting - I've never heard of "no setting allowed" before


so, the casino actually believes the player can get an edge by setting the dice and this rule is to prevent that__




elsewhere a high rolling BJ AP player whose words I believe and who refers to himself as being addictive and compulsive has posted that due to the fact that they knew who he was he was backed off while betting thousands at roulette and baccarat - no edge - playing minus EV - likely to lose big $$$$


maybe not a lot - but there's got to be at least a few real morons working as bosses at some casinos


.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on May 30, 2022
"𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘭𝘧 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘴𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘯𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳"______Edgar Allan Poe

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