Free play doesnt last forever
September 8th, 2022 at 8:25:49 AM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: AxelWolfIf you were able to buy unlimited free play at 95%, given a high enough denomination such as $100 you would be making upwards of 10's of thousands per hour. So yeah, it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that.
It's not so crazy, since there have been casino promotions and various private deals where you could buy Freeplay for a discount.
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Lately, I am getting an average of $10K a month in table game freeplay. I don't really even pursue all I COULD be getting but if there are takers out there to buy these at 95%, I could step it up and probably double that, maybe more. While sometimes I have taken those freeplay chips to extraordinary levels, still - I'll sell you all the promo chips you want at 95 cents on the dollar.
Didn't someone else say that the return on promo chips at Blackjack should be at least 99%?
And here I thought that the $2000. DarkOz gave me was going to be the only material benefit from joining these forums.
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"it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that."
Seems like an offer to buy my FreePlay at 95 cents on the dollar. Was it backpedaled?
Quote: AlanMendelsonMdawg what denomination are your free play chips? I think that's crucial for a buyer to know.
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Typically they will be 500 and 1000 promo chips, but I have also received them in 100 denominations. I could specify the denomination the cage doesn't care. When they are chips they do not expire (within reason - eventually the casino may change what the promo chips look like) but when they are paper slips such as issued at Caesars they must be used typically within 3 days. I don't believe there is any easy way to trace actual chips to the person who received them, but obviously those printed out free play slips could be traced however whenever I have played those paper slips or watched others play them I haven't seen the dealers do anything more than look at them briefly to determine their value after a winning hand. Once lost those chips and slips are stuffed into the slot.
Yes I suppose that eventually if a person playing above board with a player's card kept showing up with promo chips an investigation could be launched into how he's getting all these if no promos are showing up on his account, but then - I didn't make the claim that "it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that" I'm here to sell my chips for 95 cents on the dollar to the guy who made the post.
As a disclaimer, anyone who plays with table game promo chips would know - they are good on even money bets only, may not be used for example on Bacc tie bet.
Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 8, 2022
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 8:33:55 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfWho said anything about buying free play or playing on somebody else's card? I said if YOU won a drawing/contest or something. That is a real thing that actually comes up where the casinos will offer more free play than cash.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfObvious, I wouldn't be willing to download $5 at a time, I have been to the East Coast many times, there are many different slots available that can be 100%+ where you would hopefully get some significant action in. Not all the casinos are going to always have 100% + machine opportunities, but I would certainly find something much better than 86 %. Perhaps if nothing else, the higher limits would be an option. Worst case scenario you'll get 86k in value instead of locking yourself into 60k.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfObviousy paying more than the free play is worth would be retarded. We were talking about the VP regarding paying 95%. Go read Alan's original question and my response.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfYou are back on that? If you were able to buy unlimited free play at 95%, given a high enough denomination such as $100 you would be making upwards of 10's of thousands per hour. So yeah, it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonWednesday free play report.
Had $5 @ Suncoast which seems to be the minimum, and I haven't tables there for months. Cashed at $3.50 @ Bonus Poker.
$15 @ Red Rock. Cashed out $11.
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Now that's a good Freeplay report.
Also note your return even at VP was not anywhere near 95% which is why I feel it's crazy to be willing to pay that for Freeplay.
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It's not so crazy, since there have been casino promotions and various private deals where you could buy Freeplay for a discount.
Let's say you win a drawing worth 100k in free play, but they offer 60 % in cash, are you telling me you would take the cash?
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Is that $100,000 to only be used at slots or it can be used at VP and VBJ as well?
Is that $100'000 at once or spread out? Is the cash option at once or spread out?
For that matter, is the Freeplay offers revocable?
I'm curious how you feel that, say, 86% slots return would be wise to purchase Freeplay at 95% value?
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Even if only available on slots, why would you choose a machine that only has an 86% payback? Heck, I would be thinking I might even find a machine with over 100% payback. If not, ill gladly go for 86k over 60k. As an advantage player, you are looking for ways to gain value, not toss it away. I think 26k is too much to give up.
It's ok man, I realize you are mostly a specialist in one area of advantage play. IIRC you once said, if they did away with free play, you would be out(or something like that). For me, I would be jumping for joy and praying the variable state machines were next. This would drastically weed out a significant portion of Advantage Players and hustlers. The casinos would then be forced into coming up with various promotions and marketing, that with some understanding of different areas of AP and outside-the-box thinking would be highly exploitable.
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+100% slots?
Unless you are planning to vulture, downloading $5 at a time from your $100,000 Freeplay every time you see someone leave behind a couple of Scarabs etc, I don't know what machines you are talking about.
Perhaps they have +100% slots in Vegas but not on the East Coast.
I suspect that if you had to operate on the East Coast you would get a bit of an education. I suspect a lot of opportunities you have in Vegas would be missing from your repertoire here.
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The problem with going to higher limit rooms is jackpots. I know of a quite a few Casinos on the East Coast (though admittedly not all) where winning a jackpot on someone else's Freeplay will be checked!
Imagine paying $95,000 for $100,000 freeplay, winning a jackpot about$2,000 in and then finding your card pin locked with about $90,000 to go!
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Okay I was mingling the two discussions, one about selling freeplay and the other this singular question of taking a cash payout over Freeplay.
You still haven't answered my return questions. What is the time frame, what machines can the freeplay be used on, etc.
It reminds me of the Revel promotion with refunds up to $100,000. That didn't work out too well when it came to collecting the Freeplay.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 8:39:11 AM
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Regarding Caesars' printed free play vouchers:
I DONT KNOW how they work today, but FIVE YEARS AGO the printed vouchers were tied to your player's card. Without your card inserted the vouchers would be rejected.
I DONT KNOW how they work today, but FIVE YEARS AGO the printed vouchers were tied to your player's card. Without your card inserted the vouchers would be rejected.
September 8th, 2022 at 8:42:06 AM
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Darkoz please be specific when you say there are tax considerations.
There are no taxes when you're given free play.
Free play has no value.
What you win might be taxed.
There are no taxes when you're given free play.
Free play has no value.
What you win might be taxed.
September 8th, 2022 at 8:42:07 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonRegarding Caesars' printed free play vouchers:
I DONT KNOW how they work today, but FIVE YEARS AGO the printed vouchers were tied to your player's card. Without your card inserted the vouchers would be rejected.
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That makes sense but it wasn't everywhere. Atlantic City Ceasars vouchers could be used without player's cards.
But I know you needed the card inserted at Foxwoods when using their vouchers. That was also years ago but they had a choice of digital download or using a voucher printed at the kiosk. Ultimately you had to insert your own player's card regardless.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 8:42:25 AM
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I use mine at table games. I have not seen any staff examine the slips closely or make sure they belong to the person to whom they were initially issued.
Quote: MDawgI don't believe there is any easy way to trace actual chips to the person who received them, but obviously those printed out free play slips could be traced however whenever I have played those paper slips or watched others play them I haven't seen the dealers do anything more than look at them briefly to determine their value after a winning hand. Once lost those chips and slips are stuffed into the slot.
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I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 8:47:04 AM
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Let me clear up the $100,000 Freeplay tax issue.
Axel said it was won during a promo drawing. That makes the cash won from the Freeplay totally taxable.
Another consideration in Axel's hypothetical!
The reason it's taxable is because it's NOT considered a rebate on purchases if it's won through a drawing. Rebates have to be tied directly to the purchase (like monthly mailers based on your rated play).
Actually winning from a drawing Freeplay and it becomes taxable no different than if you won a car or the mentioned $60,000
Axel said it was won during a promo drawing. That makes the cash won from the Freeplay totally taxable.
Another consideration in Axel's hypothetical!
The reason it's taxable is because it's NOT considered a rebate on purchases if it's won through a drawing. Rebates have to be tied directly to the purchase (like monthly mailers based on your rated play).
Actually winning from a drawing Freeplay and it becomes taxable no different than if you won a car or the mentioned $60,000
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 8:51:43 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonDarkoz please be specific when you say there are tax considerations.
There are no taxes when you're given free play.
Free play has no value.
What you win might be taxed.
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I answered above.
The Freeplay value isn't the issue. Of course it's going to eventually turn into cash after play through. That cash isn't taxable because it's from the rebate based on prior play, i.e. past purchases.
Axel hypothetical is for a $100,000 promo drawing. That's not a rebate and would fall under earnings through winning.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 9:00:05 AM
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Quote: MDawgI use mine at table games. I have not seen any staff examine the slips closely or make sure they belong to the person to whom they were initially issued.
Quote: MDawgI don't believe there is any easy way to trace actual chips to the person who received them, but obviously those printed out free play slips could be traced however whenever I have played those paper slips or watched others play them I haven't seen the dealers do anything more than look at them briefly to determine their value after a winning hand. Once lost those chips and slips are stuffed into the slot.
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I played at Borgata in AC a few months ago and the pit boss took the free play vouchers and scanned them with my players card before letting me play them.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
September 8th, 2022 at 9:02:04 AM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: MDawgQuote: AxelWolfIf you were able to buy unlimited free play at 95%, given a high enough denomination such as $100 you would be making upwards of 10's of thousands per hour. So yeah, it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that.
It's not so crazy, since there have been casino promotions and various private deals where you could buy Freeplay for a discount.
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Lately, I am getting an average of $10K a month in table game freeplay. I don't really even pursue all I COULD be getting but if there are takers out there to buy these at 95%, I could step it up and probably double that, maybe more. While sometimes I have taken those freeplay chips to extraordinary levels, still - I'll sell you all the promo chips you want at 95 cents on the dollar.
Didn't someone else say that the return on promo chips at Blackjack should be at least 99%?
And here I thought that the $2000. DarkOz gave me was going to be the only material benefit from joining these forums.
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"it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that."
Seems like an offer to buy my FreePlay at 95 cents on the dollar. Was it backpedaled?Quote: AlanMendelsonMdawg what denomination are your free play chips? I think that's crucial for a buyer to know.
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Typically they will be 500 and 1000 promo chips, but I have also received them in 100 denominations. I could specify the denomination the cage doesn't care. When they are chips they do not expire (within reason - eventually the casino may change what the promo chips look like) but when they are paper slips such as issued at Caesars they must be used typically within 3 days. I don't believe there is any easy way to trace actual chips to the person who received them, but obviously those printed out free play slips could be traced however whenever I have played those paper slips or watched others play them I haven't seen the dealers do anything more than look at them briefly to determine their value after a winning hand. Once lost those chips and slips are stuffed into the slot.
Yes I suppose that eventually if a person playing above board with a player's card kept showing up with promo chips an investigation could be launched into how he's getting all these if no promos are showing up on his account, but then - I didn't make the claim that "it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that" I'm here to sell my chips for 95 cents on the dollar to the guy who made the post.
As a disclaimer, anyone who plays with table game promo chips would know - they are good on even money bets only, may not be used for example on Bacc tie bet.
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I'm not the only one who mingled the two discussions I see.
MDawg, Axel is referring to $100,000 in Freeplay that he or you or I may win and are given a choice by the casino to accept cash at a lower denomination.
He is not discussing selling or buying $100,000 in freeplay.
I could literally sell Axel this month $100,000 in freeplay!!! Off different cards naturally. And for only $95,000, a real discount according to him.
But I won't and here is why! I am quite certain that if I sold him the freeplay that would alert him to the exact location that type of Freeplay can be earned (obviously he would need to play it at XYZ Casino) and no way in hell am I alerting an advantage Player where it's possible to earn that amount.
Trust me he will be all over the play, trying to earn the offers there himself.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 9:05:48 AM
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Quote: darkozLet me clear up the $100,000 Freeplay tax issue.
Axel said it was won during a promo drawing. That makes the cash won from the Freeplay totally taxable.
Another consideration in Axel's hypothetical!
The reason it's taxable is because it's NOT considered a rebate on purchases if it's won through a drawing. Rebates have to be tied directly to the purchase (like monthly mailers based on your rated play).
Actually winning from a drawing Freeplay and it becomes taxable no different than if you won a car or the mentioned $60,000
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What do you mean by taxable? Taxable as in a W-2G is issued?
I have won drawings where cash was the prize - a W-2G was issued.
I have won tournaments where promo chips were the prize - no W-2G issued.
Obviously at year's end all net proceeds from the casino are taxable, but no casino is going to issue any W-2G for promo chips because the recipient might turn them into a ton or might lose them all.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 9:08:20 AM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozLet me clear up the $100,000 Freeplay tax issue.
Axel said it was won during a promo drawing. That makes the cash won from the Freeplay totally taxable.
Another consideration in Axel's hypothetical!
The reason it's taxable is because it's NOT considered a rebate on purchases if it's won through a drawing. Rebates have to be tied directly to the purchase (like monthly mailers based on your rated play).
Actually winning from a drawing Freeplay and it becomes taxable no different than if you won a car or the mentioned $60,000
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Obviously at year's end all net proceeds from the casino are taxable, but no casino is going to issue any W2-G for promo chips because the recipient might turn them into a ton or might lose them all.
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You answered the question above.
At years end all net proceeds from the promo is taxable.
Again, not promo chips from rated earned play. But from tournament wins, yes.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 9:10:17 AM
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Quote: darkoznot promo chips from rated earned play.
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What is that supposed to mean?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 9:11:18 AM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: darkoznot promo chips from rated earned play.
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What is that supposed to mean?
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My guess is that he means it doesn’t fall into the IRS exception to income for rebates.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
September 8th, 2022 at 9:12:48 AM
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i.e. What's the difference? If you get your promo chips from rated play or you get them from winning a tournament. In either case you will get no W-2G but if you are able to turn these promo chips into cash, then that cash will be considered income from the casino - as applied against any loss at the casino that same year.
What are you trying to say, that promo chips from rated play are somehow placed in a different category from promo chips from a tournament?
What are you trying to say, that promo chips from rated play are somehow placed in a different category from promo chips from a tournament?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM
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Quote: darkozThat makes the cash won from the Freeplay totally taxable.
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Of course anything you win with free play is taxable. But free play is not taxable.
Free play has ZERO value. What you win with free play has value.
Case in point: you are given a $500 free play chip. You place it on the 5 on a craps table. The next roll is 7-out.
Are you going to report that $500 free play chip as income, or a casino win? You'd better not.
Another case in point: you place the $500 free play chip on 5 and the next roll is 5. You're paid $700. You now have a $700 taxable win (which can be offset by losses.) You do not have a $1200 win because the $500 free play chip has no value.
September 8th, 2022 at 9:21:02 AM
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Because, I don't think all that matters all that much. Worst case....86% return vs 60% return it's a no-brainer to me.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfWho said anything about buying free play or playing on somebody else's card? I said if YOU won a drawing/contest or something. That is a real thing that actually comes up where the casinos will offer more free play than cash.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfObvious, I wouldn't be willing to download $5 at a time, I have been to the East Coast many times, there are many different slots available that can be 100%+ where you would hopefully get some significant action in. Not all the casinos are going to always have 100% + machine opportunities, but I would certainly find something much better than 86 %. Perhaps if nothing else, the higher limits would be an option. Worst case scenario you'll get 86k in value instead of locking yourself into 60k.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfObviousy paying more than the free play is worth would be retarded. We were talking about the VP regarding paying 95%. Go read Alan's original question and my response.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfYou are back on that? If you were able to buy unlimited free play at 95%, given a high enough denomination such as $100 you would be making upwards of 10's of thousands per hour. So yeah, it would be dumb for an advantage player not to take advantage of a situation like that.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonWednesday free play report.
Had $5 @ Suncoast which seems to be the minimum, and I haven't tables there for months. Cashed at $3.50 @ Bonus Poker.
$15 @ Red Rock. Cashed out $11.
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Now that's a good Freeplay report.
Also note your return even at VP was not anywhere near 95% which is why I feel it's crazy to be willing to pay that for Freeplay.
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It's not so crazy, since there have been casino promotions and various private deals where you could buy Freeplay for a discount.
Let's say you win a drawing worth 100k in free play, but they offer 60 % in cash, are you telling me you would take the cash?
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Is that $100,000 to only be used at slots or it can be used at VP and VBJ as well?
Is that $100'000 at once or spread out? Is the cash option at once or spread out?
For that matter, is the Freeplay offers revocable?
I'm curious how you feel that, say, 86% slots return would be wise to purchase Freeplay at 95% value?
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Even if only available on slots, why would you choose a machine that only has an 86% payback? Heck, I would be thinking I might even find a machine with over 100% payback. If not, ill gladly go for 86k over 60k. As an advantage player, you are looking for ways to gain value, not toss it away. I think 26k is too much to give up.
It's ok man, I realize you are mostly a specialist in one area of advantage play. IIRC you once said, if they did away with free play, you would be out(or something like that). For me, I would be jumping for joy and praying the variable state machines were next. This would drastically weed out a significant portion of Advantage Players and hustlers. The casinos would then be forced into coming up with various promotions and marketing, that with some understanding of different areas of AP and outside-the-box thinking would be highly exploitable.
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+100% slots?
Unless you are planning to vulture, downloading $5 at a time from your $100,000 Freeplay every time you see someone leave behind a couple of Scarabs etc, I don't know what machines you are talking about.
Perhaps they have +100% slots in Vegas but not on the East Coast.
I suspect that if you had to operate on the East Coast you would get a bit of an education. I suspect a lot of opportunities you have in Vegas would be missing from your repertoire here.
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The problem with going to higher limit rooms is jackpots. I know of a quite a few Casinos on the East Coast (though admittedly not all) where winning a jackpot on someone else's Freeplay will be checked!
Imagine paying $95,000 for $100,000 freeplay, winning a jackpot about$2,000 in and then finding your card pin locked with about $90,000 to go!
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Okay I was mingling the two discussions, one about selling freeplay and the other this singular question of taking a cash payout over Freeplay.
You still haven't answered my return questions. What is the time frame, what machines can the freeplay be used on, etc.
It reminds me of the Revel promotion with refunds up to $100,000. That didn't work out too well when it came to collecting the Freeplay.
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Why didn't that work out too well? Were you there? I know I was.
It worked out fantastic for many people, just how it was supposed to, even better than just the value of the loss rebate. Some people were getting significant amounts of free play on top of and after they collected losses/or won straight up. The 20 weeks of collecting or whatever it was, was known upfront.
The main issue was that they expelled a few people from the player's rewards program and revoked RFB after the fact. Those issues were isolated to a few guys who were targeting the $100 slots.
And people up to shenanigans, I predicted that would happen before even I went. I even warned them what they were doing was dumb. I also watched as the management was watching them and let them know they were being watched.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 8th, 2022 at 9:35:01 AM
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MDawg and Alan.
Freeplay has no value except what it is turned into after playing through it.
What is won is ONLY TAXABLE if it's not a rebate.
To claim the Freeplay vouchers are your rebate but the money won isn't is ridiculously wrong and not the way the IRS works.
In that case I would save up $100,000 in freeplay promo chips, hand it to the IRS at the end of the year and ask how much was my rebate (zero since it hasn't been played).
If you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable. If you guys have been paying taxes on that then you have been overpaying.
Taxes on cash won at Casinos from freeplay is only taxable if it's won (not a rebate such as in tournament play or drawings).
Ask yourself this. Do you pay taxes on your RFB? No! Because it's a rebate.
The cash value of the hotel, free food, etc isn't taxable.
Don't say yeah but that's not cash. Try winning a car or a $10,000 Rolex in a drawing and telling the IRS, that it's not taxable because it's an item and not cash.
The cash aspects are not the issue.
Discover Card and other credit cards gives cashback on purchases. That's cash sent to you. You don't pay taxes on your cashbacks because it's considered a rebate.
But if Discover Card or some other card offered you a $1000 sign up bonus that WOULD BE TAXABLE because it's not a rebate. You didn't purchase anything.
I always surprised how people have a difficult time separating this.
Won versus earned(through purchase) = taxable versus non-taxable (rebate).
Freeplay has no value except what it is turned into after playing through it.
What is won is ONLY TAXABLE if it's not a rebate.
To claim the Freeplay vouchers are your rebate but the money won isn't is ridiculously wrong and not the way the IRS works.
In that case I would save up $100,000 in freeplay promo chips, hand it to the IRS at the end of the year and ask how much was my rebate (zero since it hasn't been played).
If you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable. If you guys have been paying taxes on that then you have been overpaying.
Taxes on cash won at Casinos from freeplay is only taxable if it's won (not a rebate such as in tournament play or drawings).
Ask yourself this. Do you pay taxes on your RFB? No! Because it's a rebate.
The cash value of the hotel, free food, etc isn't taxable.
Don't say yeah but that's not cash. Try winning a car or a $10,000 Rolex in a drawing and telling the IRS, that it's not taxable because it's an item and not cash.
The cash aspects are not the issue.
Discover Card and other credit cards gives cashback on purchases. That's cash sent to you. You don't pay taxes on your cashbacks because it's considered a rebate.
But if Discover Card or some other card offered you a $1000 sign up bonus that WOULD BE TAXABLE because it's not a rebate. You didn't purchase anything.
I always surprised how people have a difficult time separating this.
Won versus earned(through purchase) = taxable versus non-taxable (rebate).
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 9:52:42 AM
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Let's get things nice and sparkling clear.
On my recent trip, I received 2100 in promo chips that I received for theo generated at the tables. I took those to $19,500 real dollars and cashed out. You're saying that I do not need to pay tax on that income? That this $19,500. should not be applied or considered in any way at the end of the year as far as net win/loss at the casino.
On my recent trip, I received 2100 in promo chips that I received for theo generated at the tables. I took those to $19,500 real dollars and cashed out. You're saying that I do not need to pay tax on that income? That this $19,500. should not be applied or considered in any way at the end of the year as far as net win/loss at the casino.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 9:57:19 AM
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Quote: MDawgLet's get things nice and sparkling clear.
On my recent trip, I received 2100 in promo chips that I received for theo generated at the tables. I took those to $19,500 real dollars and cashed out. You're saying that I do not need to pay tax on that income?
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Of course not!
Example, you purchase a Lamborghini. The deal comes with a $20,000 rebate on the purchase which is sent to you in the form of a check in thirty days.
You deposit the check. You consider that income? You pay taxes on the rebate for your car purchase?
You have reported what must be a few hundred grand in hotels for months long stays. Have you been reporting that as income? I hope not!
However if you go on the Price is Right and win a month long stay at that same hotel room you stood in, be prepared to pay taxes on it. It's not a rebate in that context but free rooms you won in a contest.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 10:01:55 AM
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I smell an audit coming.
Does the IRS consider cashback and free-play gambling income?
Marissa Chien, Enrolled Agent and co-author of Tax Help for Gamblers, tells her clients that cashback is gambling income, whereas free buffets aren’t. The standard she applies is that cashback is statutory, while a comp from the players club booth or your host, such as the free buffet, is discretionary. Since the comp is entirely up to the host’s discretion — i.e., he or she could refuse to issue it for any reason— to Marissa, that doesn’t fall under the definitions of income in the tax code. Cashback is earned pursuant to a particular formula and you’re entitled to that cashback if you meet the statutory requirements of earning it.
The biggest argument as to why cashback is income is that if you’re 86ed (barred) from a Nevada casino, Nevada Gaming Control has ruled time and time again that you’re entitled to the cashback earned, whereas comps in your comp account are forfeited, since they’re discretionary.
As for free play, these days, casinos often give you free play instead of cash rewards. Free play comes in credits that must be played through a video poker or slot machine at least once before you can cash it out for money that you can put in your pocket.
This again is a gray area not specifically addressed by the IRS or any court cases. Some people don’t include free play in their gambling win, since they say it’s just like comps, a non-cash gift from the casino. Some only count as a win what they actually have left to cash out after they play it through the machine once, as required by the casino. Others keep churning it through the machine until they have nothing left (in which case they feel they have no “win”) or until they hit a big jackpot (which they do count as a win).
Marissa recommends that free play be incorporated into one’s log of session results. If someone receives $2,500 in free play, the actual proceeds after playing it through the machine should be recorded and reported as a win. A big difference between free play and cashback is the fact that free play always has an expiration date and is usually valid for only a short period of time. Cashback can expire as well (for example, if for a lack of play during a set period, your players account is closed), but it’s usually available to collect for a much longer period of time.
And here’s another nuance to the cashback issue. As soon as you pick up your cashback, it becomes income and needs to be accounted for as such. But what if you don’t pick it up? For example, there might be valid reasons for not collecting cashback, as when it’s a small amount or a player plans to pick it up later, but never gets back to that casino, so his or her account is closed. I believe it would be very hard for the IRS to argue that it should count as income, even if you file as a business on an accrual basis. (I suppose if you do, you’d have to declare it as income, but then you’d probably write it off as a bad debt, though that doesn’t make much sense either.) Actually, at some point, it should be declared as retained earnings by the casino.
The same is true for free play. Many players don’t always collect their free play, especially if it’s a small amount and/or it’s not convenient or a good use of one’s time to go back to that casino before it expires. Therefore, it’s logical not to count it as gambling income until you actually redeem it.
Does the IRS consider cashback and free-play gambling income?
Marissa Chien, Enrolled Agent and co-author of Tax Help for Gamblers, tells her clients that cashback is gambling income, whereas free buffets aren’t. The standard she applies is that cashback is statutory, while a comp from the players club booth or your host, such as the free buffet, is discretionary. Since the comp is entirely up to the host’s discretion — i.e., he or she could refuse to issue it for any reason— to Marissa, that doesn’t fall under the definitions of income in the tax code. Cashback is earned pursuant to a particular formula and you’re entitled to that cashback if you meet the statutory requirements of earning it.
The biggest argument as to why cashback is income is that if you’re 86ed (barred) from a Nevada casino, Nevada Gaming Control has ruled time and time again that you’re entitled to the cashback earned, whereas comps in your comp account are forfeited, since they’re discretionary.
As for free play, these days, casinos often give you free play instead of cash rewards. Free play comes in credits that must be played through a video poker or slot machine at least once before you can cash it out for money that you can put in your pocket.
This again is a gray area not specifically addressed by the IRS or any court cases. Some people don’t include free play in their gambling win, since they say it’s just like comps, a non-cash gift from the casino. Some only count as a win what they actually have left to cash out after they play it through the machine once, as required by the casino. Others keep churning it through the machine until they have nothing left (in which case they feel they have no “win”) or until they hit a big jackpot (which they do count as a win).
Marissa recommends that free play be incorporated into one’s log of session results. If someone receives $2,500 in free play, the actual proceeds after playing it through the machine should be recorded and reported as a win. A big difference between free play and cashback is the fact that free play always has an expiration date and is usually valid for only a short period of time. Cashback can expire as well (for example, if for a lack of play during a set period, your players account is closed), but it’s usually available to collect for a much longer period of time.
And here’s another nuance to the cashback issue. As soon as you pick up your cashback, it becomes income and needs to be accounted for as such. But what if you don’t pick it up? For example, there might be valid reasons for not collecting cashback, as when it’s a small amount or a player plans to pick it up later, but never gets back to that casino, so his or her account is closed. I believe it would be very hard for the IRS to argue that it should count as income, even if you file as a business on an accrual basis. (I suppose if you do, you’d have to declare it as income, but then you’d probably write it off as a bad debt, though that doesn’t make much sense either.) Actually, at some point, it should be declared as retained earnings by the casino.
The same is true for free play. Many players don’t always collect their free play, especially if it’s a small amount and/or it’s not convenient or a good use of one’s time to go back to that casino before it expires. Therefore, it’s logical not to count it as gambling income until you actually redeem it.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 10:05:42 AM
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Wow. There's a lot to fix in your post. But here are the key points.
Correct.
Are you trying to tell me that if I took my $3 of cashback money and played it in a Megabucks machine and won $12-million (the current jackpot) it would NOT be taxable?
link to original post
Quote: darkoz
Freeplay has no value except what it is turned into after playing through it.
Correct.
Quote: darkoz
If you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable. If you guys have been paying taxes on that then you have been overpaying.
Are you trying to tell me that if I took my $3 of cashback money and played it in a Megabucks machine and won $12-million (the current jackpot) it would NOT be taxable?
link to original post
September 8th, 2022 at 10:12:35 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWow. There's a lot to fix in your post. But here are the key points.
Quote: darkoz
Freeplay has no value except what it is turned into after playing through it.
Correct.Quote: darkoz
If you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable. If you guys have been paying taxes on that then you have been overpaying.
Are you trying to tell me that if I took my $3 of cashback money and played it in a Megabucks machine and won $12-million (the current jackpot) it would NOT be taxable?
link to original post
link to original post
Under current IRS guidelines that's correct.
But I am certain you would have to argue the case in tax court.
The only difference between cash from freeplay based on prior purchase and cash from say credit card cashbacks rewards is that one is a fixed amount (credit card sends you specific amount known in advance) and one is not fixed (you stand a chance of winning more than the value of the proffered Freeplay.)
The IRS has no such distinctions however they haven't had a court challenge yet. Probably they will create the distinction if you challenge the above scenario.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 10:22:49 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonWow. There's a lot to fix in your post. But here are the key points.
Quote: darkoz
Freeplay has no value except what it is turned into after playing through it.
Correct.Quote: darkoz
If you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable. If you guys have been paying taxes on that then you have been overpaying.
Are you trying to tell me that if I took my $3 of cashback money and played it in a Megabucks machine and won $12-million (the current jackpot) it would NOT be taxable?
link to original post
link to original post
Under current IRS guidelines that's correct.
But I am certain you would have to argue the case in tax court.
The only difference between cash from freeplay based on prior purchase and cash from say credit card cashbacks rewards is that one is a fixed amount (credit card sends you specific amount known in advance) and one is not fixed (you stand a chance of winning more than the value of the proffered Freeplay.)
The IRS has no such distinctions however they haven't had a court challenge yet. Probably they will create the distinction if you challenge the above scenario.
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Darkoz:
I'm willing to learn something new every day. Please show the IRS guidelines that say I dont have to pay tax on $12-million I win from a Megabucks machine using free play or rebate money.
September 8th, 2022 at 10:24:11 AM
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Quote: MDawgLet's get things nice and sparkling clear.
On my recent trip, I received 2100 in promo chips that I received for theo generated at the tables. I took those to $19,500 real dollars and cashed out. You're saying that I do not need to pay tax on that income? That this $19,500. should not be applied or considered in any way at the end of the year as far as net win/loss at the casino.
link to original post
MDawg, sorry, my fault for not reading your linked post
You took $2100 in promo chips and you"took it to $19,500".
What you described is winning with the promo chips (the cash return) AND THEN continuing to play until you worked it up further to $19,500.
Yes, that part is taxable.
These weird questions are purposefully gotchas but really it's common sense guys.
If I get $1000 Freeplay and after the very LAST FREEPLAY spin, I have $990 in the machine that's not taxable.
Now if I continue to play and win $19,000 more then that is taxable because I took my rebate (my cash) and won.
This goes back to just a few pages ago where I ribbed on Alan for not separating his actual Freeplay turned into cash versus his wins from continued play.
I mean if you got a $20,000 rebate check from purchasing a Lamborghini, would you go to the casino and wager the cashed check working it up to $100,000 and then tell the IRS that was part of your Lamborghini rebate?
Yeesh.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 10:31:55 AM
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Darkoz you wrote:
"If I get $1000 Freeplay and after the very LAST FREEPLAY spin, I have $990 in the machine that's not taxable."
Again I'm willing to learn something new every day. Show me where this is not taxable? (Considering offsets, of course.)
"If I get $1000 Freeplay and after the very LAST FREEPLAY spin, I have $990 in the machine that's not taxable."
Again I'm willing to learn something new every day. Show me where this is not taxable? (Considering offsets, of course.)
September 8th, 2022 at 10:45:34 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonDarkoz you wrote:
"If I get $1000 Freeplay and after the very LAST FREEPLAY spin, I have $990 in the machine that's not taxable."
Again I'm willing to learn something new every day. Show me where this is not taxable? (Considering offsets, of course.)
link to original post
Cash rebates are not income.
Your example of winning the $12 million Megabucks has not been brought to tax court! I didn't say you didn't have to pay taxes on it. I said you would have to challenge it in tax court.
However digging deeper I will stand corrected.
You have to deduct the cash basis of the purchase. The $3 Freeplay amount isn't the issue. It's what amount of gambling losses you incurred (the purchase or money spent for the rebate).
That would get deducted.
So if you lost $100,000 playing at XYZ Casino and they gave you $3 Freeplay (which I hope would piss you off as that's a lousy offer) and you then won $12 million with the Freeplay, you could deduct the $100,000 loss as your purchase.
Another more obvious example is if you won a $100,000 jackpot from your Freeplay and lost $100,000 to earn that Freeplay that would not be considered income as you won it in the form of a rebate.
But I am pretty certain you would have to defend your position in tax court.
Now comes the MDawg question.
He claims he doesn't lose but gets all his free promo stuff from Theo. It sounds like the tax court could insist he owes for all those RFB he has received.
Has he been reporting that as income?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 10:49:45 AM
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Sorry. I dont see how the $12-million win wouldn't be taxable.
You'll have to explain it to me.
You'll have to explain it to me.
September 8th, 2022 at 11:01:05 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonSorry. I dont see how the $12-million win wouldn't be taxable.
You'll have to explain it to me.
link to original post
I just did explain it to you.
Go back. Read my last post above.
Maybe you should hire a tax accountant!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 11:13:54 AM
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I smell an audit coming, and as well this might explain why DarkOz has posted conflictingly about whether or not he pays taxes. If in fact his entire operation is based on cashing out free play derived from actual coin in play, and since he apparently doesn't believe any of that is taxable, then that would explain why he doesn't pay any taxes. Of course an alternative explanation would be that he doesn't make any money to begin with, and has no taxable income. In any case, this belief of his might explain the discrepancy in his posts about whether or not he or other APs should or do pay taxes.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 11:29:55 AM
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Quote: MDawgI smell an audit coming, and as well this might explain why DarkOz has posted conflictingly about whether or not he pays taxes. If in fact his entire operation is based on cashing out free play derived from actual coin in play, and since he apparently doesn't believe any of that is taxable, then that would explain why he doesn't pay any taxes. Of course an alternative explanation would be that he doesn't make any money to begin with, and has no taxable income. In any case, this belief of his might explain the discrepancy in his posts about whether or not he or other APs should or do pay taxes.
link to original post
Please link to a post where I claimed not to pay taxes?
In fact I have stated to other posters surprise that I in fact do pay taxes.
I most likely pay more than I am supposed to as showing losses from other people's player's cards is not an option.
Repeatedly on this forum over the years this has been incorrectly stated.
But call the IRS. I have years of tax returns and we aren't talking a few thousand dollars to show. In Fact it wouldn't surprise me if an Audit showed the IRS owed me money. I am not concerned.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 11:41:57 AM
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Darkoz wrote:
"then won $12 million with the Freeplay, you could deduct the $100,000 loss as your purchase."
Good luck in tax court.
"then won $12 million with the Freeplay, you could deduct the $100,000 loss as your purchase."
Good luck in tax court.
September 8th, 2022 at 12:06:17 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: MDawgI smell an audit coming, and as well this might explain why DarkOz has posted conflictingly about whether or not he pays taxes. If in fact his entire operation is based on cashing out free play derived from actual coin in play, and since he apparently doesn't believe any of that is taxable, then that would explain why he doesn't pay any taxes. Of course an alternative explanation would be that he doesn't make any money to begin with, and has no taxable income. In any case, this belief of his might explain the discrepancy in his posts about whether or not he or other APs should or do pay taxes.
link to original post
Please link to a post where I claimed not to pay taxes?
In fact I have stated to other posters surprise that I in fact do pay taxes.
I most likely pay more than I am supposed to as showing losses from other people's player's cards is not an option.
Repeatedly on this forum over the years this has been incorrectly stated.
But call the IRS. I have years of tax returns and we aren't talking a few thousand dollars to show. In Fact it wouldn't surprise me if an Audit showed the IRS owed me money. I am not concerned.
link to original post
You made a post or posts about how you pay all your taxes. Then another one about how APs don't have to declare all of their income - is this what you were talking about? with this "free play derived from actual coin in play is not taxable" scheme?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 12:16:08 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozQuote: MDawgI smell an audit coming, and as well this might explain why DarkOz has posted conflictingly about whether or not he pays taxes. If in fact his entire operation is based on cashing out free play derived from actual coin in play, and since he apparently doesn't believe any of that is taxable, then that would explain why he doesn't pay any taxes. Of course an alternative explanation would be that he doesn't make any money to begin with, and has no taxable income. In any case, this belief of his might explain the discrepancy in his posts about whether or not he or other APs should or do pay taxes.
link to original post
Please link to a post where I claimed not to pay taxes?
In fact I have stated to other posters surprise that I in fact do pay taxes.
I most likely pay more than I am supposed to as showing losses from other people's player's cards is not an option.
Repeatedly on this forum over the years this has been incorrectly stated.
But call the IRS. I have years of tax returns and we aren't talking a few thousand dollars to show. In Fact it wouldn't surprise me if an Audit showed the IRS owed me money. I am not concerned.
link to original post
You made a post or posts about how you pay all your taxes. Then another one about how APs don't have to declare all of their income - is this what you were talking about? with this "free play derived from actual coin in play is not taxable" scheme?
link to original post
You will have to link to that post.
I'm quite certain I never said AP's don't have to declare all their income.
At best I may have stated AP's often don't declare their income.
Freeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
You seem to be confusing different discussions.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 12:17:33 PM
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Quote: darkozFreeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
I smell an audit coming
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 12:27:48 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: MDawgLet's get things nice and sparkling clear.
On my recent trip, I received 2100 in promo chips that I received for theo generated at the tables. I took those to $19,500 real dollars and cashed out. You're saying that I do not need to pay tax on that income? That this $19,500. should not be applied or considered in any way at the end of the year as far as net win/loss at the casino.
link to original post
MDawg, sorry, my fault for not reading your linked post
You took $2100 in promo chips and you"took it to $19,500".
What you described is winning with the promo chips (the cash return) AND THEN continuing to play until you worked it up further to $19,500.
Yes, that part is taxable.
These weird questions are purposefully gotchas but really it's common sense guys.
If I get $1000 Freeplay and after the very LAST FREEPLAY spin, I have $990 in the machine that's not taxable.
Now if I continue to play and win $19,000 more then that is taxable because I took my rebate (my cash) and won.
This goes back to just a few pages ago where I ribbed on Alan for not separating his actual Freeplay turned into cash versus his wins from continued play.
I mean if you got a $20,000 rebate check from purchasing a Lamborghini, would you go to the casino and wager the cashed check working it up to $100,000 and then tell the IRS that was part of your Lamborghini rebate?
Yeesh.
link to original post
Not exactly. I took a single 1000 promo chip to $5000. (net $4000. - Session #1) and a single $100. and single $1000. promo chip to $15,500. (Session #2). The entire $19,500. was derived directly from the promo chips. When the promo chips lost, I stopped each session. The only chips I laid in the circle for these two sessions, were the promo chips themselves. If I had added regular chips to the bets (wish I had), I would have cleared far more than $19,500.
I didn't even want to play and was in a hurry to go pick up dinner and get back, but at one of the casinos the host who gave me the chip(s) claimed that the chip(s )would expire (later another host told me this was nonsense), so I just sat down and declared that I would play until I lost a hand. I got sucked into playing both of those sessions but I can't imagine how they could have ended up much better. They did set up my usual table for me and everything even though I told them I was not going to stay long.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 12:30:46 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozFreeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
I smell an audit coming
link to original post
Mdawg you'll have to be specific, too.
The article you quote talks about free play being a gray area.
And your article is the opinion of one tax pro.
September 8th, 2022 at 12:32:13 PM
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Well, that's the nature of audits. They don't necessarily come in and say that you're wrong, just that you need to substantiate what you did, and why. If you can't, or they don't buy it, the matter goes on.
It goes on.
It goes on.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 12:41:25 PM
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Quote: darkoz[
At best I may have stated AP's often don't declare their income.
I would say most often AP's don't declare all of their income.
You can't know everything, but you can know anything.
September 8th, 2022 at 12:42:38 PM
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Freeplay rebates are not the same as cash rebates from purchases (the IRS section you posted earlier). To be clear, the IRS has not yet ruled either one way or the other on the taxability of freeplay rebates. But, under the clear rules of tax law, the absence of a ruling on the taxability of an income item does NOT imply that the income item in question is not in fact taxable.Quote: darkoz
Freeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
September 8th, 2022 at 1:28:33 PM
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Quote: UP84Freeplay rebates are not the same as cash rebates from purchases (the IRS section you posted earlier). To be clear, the IRS has not yet ruled either one way or the other on the taxability of freeplay rebates. But, under the clear rules of tax law, the absence of a ruling on the taxability of an income item does NOT imply that the income item in question is not in fact taxable.Quote: darkoz
Freeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
link to original post
While Casino Freeplay rebates have not been directly addressed yet by the IRS both credit card cashbacks (considered non-taxable rebates) as well as frequent flier miles (considered non-taxable rebates for prior travel) have been addressed by the IRS.
I don't see what argument they can make that Freeplay is not similar in nature to frequent flier miles. One is free gambling and one is free airfare, both basing their awards in size based on prior purchases.
A competent attorney would draw the comparisons.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 1:40:12 PM
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It’s an open question of law, with good arguments on both sides.Quote: darkozQuote: UP84Freeplay rebates are not the same as cash rebates from purchases (the IRS section you posted earlier). To be clear, the IRS has not yet ruled either one way or the other on the taxability of freeplay rebates. But, under the clear rules of tax law, the absence of a ruling on the taxability of an income item does NOT imply that the income item in question is not in fact taxable.Quote: darkoz
Freeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
link to original post
While Casino Freeplay rebates have not been directly addressed yet by the IRS both credit card cashbacks (considered non-taxable rebates) as well as frequent flier miles (considered non-taxable rebates for prior travel) have been addressed by the IRS.
I don't see what argument they can make that Freeplay is not similar in nature to frequent flier miles. One is free gambling and one is free airfare, both basing their awards in size based on prior purchases.
A competent attorney would draw the comparisons.
link to original post
FWIW, the reason the IRS generally considers card cashbacks and frequent flyer credits as non-taxable is because they view them as a passive reduction the purchase price of the original item. These are rebates attached to the underlying purchase of a tangible good. Not so sure that rationale would apply to casino freeplay, but it might. Until we get a resolution from the IRS (which may not happen for a long time), both the “it’s taxable” and “it’s not taxable” viewpoints are correct.
September 8th, 2022 at 1:44:32 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozFreeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
I smell an audit coming
link to original post
If I were DarkOz I'd hope that someone else becomes the poster child test case. It's one thing to get some casual free play and not report the benefits derived, quite another to have one's entire income be based on free play and then argue that it's okay to decline to report any of it.
I needed this break, this moment of peace and refuge, before we did the Drug Conference. It was going to be quite a different thing from the Mint 400. That had been observer gig, but this one would need participation - and a special stance: At the Mint 400 we were dealing with an essentially simpatico crowd, and if our behavior was gross outrageous . . . well, it was only a matter of degree. This time our very presence would be an outrage. We be attending the conference under false pretenses and from the start, with a crowd that was convened for d purpose of putting people like us in jail. We were the Menace - not in disguise, but stone - obvious drug abusers, with a flagrantly cranked - up act that we intended to push all the way to the limit . . . not to prove any final, sociological point, and not even as a conscious mockery: It was mainly a matter of life - style, a sense of obligation and even duty. If the Pigs were gathering in Vegas for a top - level Drug Conference, we felt the drug culture should be represented.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 1:56:49 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: MDawgQuote: darkozFreeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
link to original post
I smell an audit coming
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If I were DarkOz I'd hope that someone else becomes the poster child test case. It's one thing to get some casual free play and not report the benefits derived, quite another to have one's entire income be based on free play and then argue that it's okay to decline to report any of it.
I needed this break, this moment of peace and refuge, before we did the Drug Conference. It was going to be quite a different thing from the Mint 400. That had been observer gig, but this one would need participation - and a special stance: At the Mint 400 we were dealing with an essentially simpatico crowd, and if our behavior was gross outrageous . . . well, it was only a matter of degree. This time our very presence would be an outrage. We be attending the conference under false pretenses and from the start, with a crowd that was convened for d purpose of putting people like us in jail. We were the Menace - not in disguise, but stone - obvious drug abusers, with a flagrantly cranked - up act that we intended to push all the way to the limit . . . not to prove any final, sociological point, and not even as a conscious mockery: It was mainly a matter of life - style, a sense of obligation and even duty. If the Pigs were gathering in Vegas for a top - level Drug Conference, we felt the drug culture should be represented.
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At this point you are both calling me a liar since I have stated that I pay taxes on my income as well as calling me a tax cheat.
You are an attorney so I assume you understand the term cease and desist!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 2:07:52 PM
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I said "and then argue that it's okay to decline to report any of it" - which is what you're doing here, no? isn't that what you are arguing?
In any case, you're saying that it is okay to not pay any tax on said free play because no tax is due. You want to spend pages arguing a point and then get upset because someone points out that this is what you are saying?
In any case, you're saying that it is okay to not pay any tax on said free play because no tax is due. You want to spend pages arguing a point and then get upset because someone points out that this is what you are saying?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 2:17:16 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: MDawgQuote: darkozFreeplay rebates are not income per IRS regulations so there is no income to report.
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I smell an audit coming
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If I were DarkOz I'd hope that someone else becomes the poster child test case. It's one thing to get some casual free play and not report the benefits derived, quite another to have one's entire income be based on free play and then argue that it's okay to decline to report any of it.
Lol, you cut a chunk of your own quote to make it look more benign.
The entirety of your statement above is that I should hope someone else has the freeplay is non-taxable theory tested because I derive my income from freeplay and I decline to report any of it.
Combined with another post just earlier today that either I don't pay taxes or don't even have an income it's clear you are not simply pointing out what I said but accusing me of not paying my fair share of taxes.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 2:22:06 PM
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How is it unfair if you don't owe the taxes in the first place (according to you)?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 2:36:37 PM
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Quote: MDawgHow is it unfair if you don't owe the taxes in the first place (according to you)?
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You missed one of my posts or chose to ignore it.
Freeplay is a rebate only good for the amount of the purchase.
At any rate as I stated earlier I probably pay more than I should because I don't want to have to make the IRS understand what I do, how I do it and where.
To claim my Freeplay is a rebate I would have to show how my losses are credited to other players etc.
I'm not getting into that with the IRS.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 8th, 2022 at 2:37:45 PM
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I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
September 8th, 2022 at 3:00:24 PM
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Kiosk game free play seem to be different than redeeming a mailer free play at the kiosk. It's a distinction I'm failing to notice. Shouldn't free play be free play?
5. PRIZES: During the Promotional Day, the Member must visit a promotional kiosk to play a bonus game for a prize valued between $15 and $10,000 in free slot play, free table play (in the form of promotional chips) or cash, in Encore Boston Harbor’s sole discretion. Maximum of one (1) bonus prize per Member. Free slot play valued up to $99 is valid until 5:59 a.m., one (1) calendar day after issuance. Free slot play valued at $100 and above is available for thirty (30) days after the date of issuance. No substitution of prize or transfer of prize to others or request for a cash equivalent is permitted. Members shall be solely responsible for any and all prize-related expenses and fees, including without limitation, any and all federal, state and/or local taxes (including sales tax), and winners shall be responsible, where applicable, to complete and execute an IRS Form 1099 and release and waiver liability form in order to receive any prize.
https://www.encorebostonharbor.com/promotions/terms-and-conditions
So you win $600 or more of free play annually on kiosk games, you might get a 1099 form at the end of the year. But redeem $600 or more of free play at the kiosk because of mailers, you won't get a 1099. How would they know the difference?
I'm more of the opinion that I should keep track of all the free play I've won then deduct it from my overall winnings, rather than keeping track of my cash-outs from free play alone. Example: I won $1,800 in free play over the year from free play mailer redeeming, and $3,200 of free play from the kiosk games, I'd deduct $5,000 from my overall winnings because of the free play exemption. However, if kiosk game free play isn't deductible, I can only deduct $1,800 of mailer free play and cannot deduct the $3,200 of kiosk game free play, and I'd get a 1099 for that at some point. So I've got to make a notation of whether free play was from mailer redemption or whether it was from a kiosk game, but that came on a mailer also!
Now there's gifts that I have absolutely no use for.
4. GIFTS: During the pick-up date and hours designated in Section 3 above, Eligible Members may pick-up one (1) Macy’s Promotional Gift Card valued at $200.000.
5. PRIZES: During the Promotional Day, the Member must visit a promotional kiosk to play a bonus game for a prize valued between $15 and $10,000 in free slot play, free table play (in the form of promotional chips) or cash, in Encore Boston Harbor’s sole discretion. Maximum of one (1) bonus prize per Member. Free slot play valued up to $99 is valid until 5:59 a.m., one (1) calendar day after issuance. Free slot play valued at $100 and above is available for thirty (30) days after the date of issuance. No substitution of prize or transfer of prize to others or request for a cash equivalent is permitted. Members shall be solely responsible for any and all prize-related expenses and fees, including without limitation, any and all federal, state and/or local taxes (including sales tax), and winners shall be responsible, where applicable, to complete and execute an IRS Form 1099 and release and waiver liability form in order to receive any prize.
https://www.encorebostonharbor.com/promotions/terms-and-conditions
So you win $600 or more of free play annually on kiosk games, you might get a 1099 form at the end of the year. But redeem $600 or more of free play at the kiosk because of mailers, you won't get a 1099. How would they know the difference?
I'm more of the opinion that I should keep track of all the free play I've won then deduct it from my overall winnings, rather than keeping track of my cash-outs from free play alone. Example: I won $1,800 in free play over the year from free play mailer redeeming, and $3,200 of free play from the kiosk games, I'd deduct $5,000 from my overall winnings because of the free play exemption. However, if kiosk game free play isn't deductible, I can only deduct $1,800 of mailer free play and cannot deduct the $3,200 of kiosk game free play, and I'd get a 1099 for that at some point. So I've got to make a notation of whether free play was from mailer redemption or whether it was from a kiosk game, but that came on a mailer also!
Now there's gifts that I have absolutely no use for.
4. GIFTS: During the pick-up date and hours designated in Section 3 above, Eligible Members may pick-up one (1) Macy’s Promotional Gift Card valued at $200.000.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 8, 2022
