GN AC vs. Darkoz

Okay. Read it. Ready for more.

Love this thread.

The lies and inconsistencies in the incident report would definitely be relevant if the guy ever does take the stand. Imagine how easy the cross examination would be, starting with “sir are you sure every detail in that incident report is accurate?”

Give us more please. Im hooked

Part ten:

Armed with the newly discovered (created?) Incident report, the DA now felt confident moving forward with the charges. My next scheduled court date the case was going in front of the judge finally.

But while you wait to get to that part of the story, you will have to share some of the anticipation I experienced as we do another time jump. This time, we will be moving forward to mid 2019.

In 2019, after all the harassment, I thought switching to must hits might be worthwhile. The idea being making a living from an Advantage Play that is within the rules of casinos and wouldn't get you evicted if caught.

Locally the only real place for me was Atlantic City. There were a few other locations but they only had a smattering of machines.

To be clear I was only interested in long distance traveling for major must hits such as $16,000+.

This isn't the thread to discuss Must Hits. I had a smidgen of success, not enough to feel comfortable making it a play. For one thing, I kept must hits separate from my multicarding. After all, if I was serious about an AP that was tolerated by casinos, combining it with multicarding defeated the purpose.

In the end, it basically boiled down to when the must hit was +EV, they were already occupied and when the machines weren't occupied, they weren't +EV.

Again, this isn't about must hit machines. It's about what happened regarding this Golden Nugget issue. Tangentially, I had a serious concern.

What if I sat at one of the $50,000 must hits (there are two at Tropicana) and after dropping say, thirty grand, I get surrounded by security, ordered to leave and besides dropping all that money in one session I leave a big early Christmas gift in the form of a high meter for the next player?

I needed to determine what to expect from each casino before going hard.

Golden Nugget and Resorts International I already was trespassed from. Oceans and Hard Rock opened after I was evicted from Golden Nugget so they didn't get the "memo" and to this day I even receive comps from them.

That left Borgata, the CET trio of Ceasars/Harrah's/Bally's and the Tropicana.

THE BORGATA

My first exploration of what security would do was here. Borgata had turned off my comps like all other AC casinos in 2016 when the Valley Forge spread a description of the "incident in Pennsylvania".

But Borgata had just completed being absorbed into the MGM fold. I was golden with MGM. Mostly this was because on Memorial day, 2017, out with some friends, I entered an MGM property and bragged about having money and cajones to play a $100 per spin machine. I never played that before so my friends all had a good laugh as I loaded $1000 into the machine and watched pull after $100 pull get absolutely nothing and then bam, I hit for $45,000. Beginner luck, (regardless of belief in such a phenomenon) because having played $100, $200 and even $250 spins over the successive years, I have never again come close to that high a win! I paid for dinner that evening!

MGM began showering me with off the charts :) offers.

A guest and I were flown to the Beau Rivage with RFBTP (Room, Food, Beverage, Travel, Play). I attended gratis the opening of the MGM Springfield. And I was comped at the Luxor when I attended my first Spring Fling (where I introduced myself in mask).

So I had an idea why I was offered free rooms at the Borgata when my card had already been no-mailed at that location.

My biggest concern was the Borgata suddenly notifying MGM corporate and my card offers being lost at all MGM properties or perhaps even trespassed everywhere. But I had to determine if playing high amount must hits made sense.

At the Borgata, I checked in with some trepidation at the front desk. Would she inform me there was a problem with my account and I needed to wait patiently for a technician while in actuality buying time for security to install themselves (not inconspicuously) at all surrounding points? But soon enough she handed me my room keys and it turned out to be no problem. The desk clerk even asked if I wanted to use my comp dollars to pay for the rooms checkout resort fees and taxes. She said I had enough to cover it.

I declined. After settling into my room I went to the food court, and attempted to pay with my MGM card. (I vaguely recall needing to get a Borgata card because they weren't integrated yet but that may have been a different occasion). My card purchase was not going through. Hmmm!

After paying cash and eating my meal, I go to complain at customer rewards. The clerk studies my account, then calls over a supervisor, points to something on the screen and then the supervisor says "There appears to be an issue with your account. Just be patient while a technician comes to fix it."

"A technician" I somewhat sneered.

She seemed to detect that because her reply was terse. "Can you step to the side while we take the next customer. And don't go anywhere. Someone will be down to discuss your account shortly".

Yes, of course she didn't want me going anywhere!
It was Groundhog Day all over again. I began scanning the game floor in all directions and sure enough, security guards were positioning themselves, one to my West, one to the East, and North and South.

Bored, I was probably making replies to posts on WOV, waiting for these slow poke guards to hurry up and close the phalanx. This was old hat to me now!

Finally they approached me. Same script! A warrant was out for my arrest. They needed to detain me for apprehension by the police. Absolute refusal to consider they might be wrong. Patiently waiting.

The main security officer was really tall. My eyes were practically level with his belt buckle. (That put him close to the height of Andre the Giant who I had the pleasure of shaking his finger once. Yes, finger. His hands were so daunting that he always extended his finger. And I was eye level with his belt buckle also.)

After fifteen minutes the supervisor was notified there was no warrant out for my arrest. I smiled and said he owed me an apology. Perhaps I pushed too hard. Because he replied, "I don't know what behavior caused this but I am going to ask you to leave the property."

"WHAT? You just received confirmation your information is incorrect but you are still evicting me?"

"That's correct. I will escort you to the front door."

My MGM comps were flashing before my eyes. This wasn't going good. "Well, you can't escort me out until taking me to my room to retrieve my belongings."

He paused. "What room are you in?". After telling him, instead of walking me, he crossed behind the rewards desk and pulled up my reservation in the computer.

"You have comped rooms!". It was a statement but his tone was of surprise and uncertainty so I pounced.

"Yes, you sent me an invite to be here based on my qualifications of play, not to mention sending me to the Beau Rivage and Vegas."

His face contorted in thought as he relished Corporate seemed to have no problems with me and he didn't fully understand what I was accused of. He finally said I was free to finish my stay at the Borgata. I came about as close as one can to being evicted without it happening.

Nonetheless, I caught that he claimed not to know why the warning had been sent about me. I didn't feel comfortable risking money at Borgata. One casino down, four to go.

CEASARS/HARRAH'S/BALLY'S.

This one is quick. I checked into all three casinos on different occasions and had no problems. Got my card at each rewards desk. Gambled on the card with no problem and won jackpots over the years with no problem.

In fact even though I get zero mailers, I discovered I still accrue points and have no problems using them for purchases. As a result I gambled the must hits quite often at CET properties and I even had a host reach out to me although I didn't reply. I didn't feel like pushing my luck.

TROPICANA

For the Tropicana we need to time jump again. Sometime in 2018, after I won the jackpot at the Golden Nugget and they refused to pay but before I was evicted, I ran a card that didn't belong to me at the Trop as a test. I purposely chose a slot with $1.25 a spin to avoid jackpots. The only possible way to trigger a handpay was if I won the astronomical odds progressive on the machine which was just over $5,000. Fat chance!

At such a low denomination, I was just button mashing and daydreaming to pass the time when suddenly, the bells and bleeps halted and my button pressing felt hollow. You know, that feeling when you push the slot button and nothing is happening.

I come out of my daydream to see a blue message saying "Handpay $5000". Slightly better than that but not by much.

Don't try to win a jackpot! Never works But trying NOT to win. Guaranteed! Never seems to fail. This wasn't the first time either.

Remember, this is before I was purposefully testing casino security response. I yank out the other person's players card and waited. When the attendant came I handed over my ID, informed her I was playing"unrated" and after she left began scanning the gaming floor for signs of security officers positioning themselves to my East and West and North and South.

But that didn't happen! After the normal expected time for a payment on a jackpot, the attendant arrived, paid me and even handed me a copy of my Tropicana player's card and suggested I use it next time I gambled for the credit.

I knew my account was turned off prior to this. Was I reinstated? At the Tropicana, you can easily see if your card is pin locked by swiping at the kiosk.

A few moments later I discovered my account was still pin locked. The card I was handed was useless at earning comps. I guess security and the slots department were handled separate at the Trop.

So now we can forward again to 2019 when I was testing the different casino response to my being on property. I still had that very same players card from the Trop in my pocket. It was time to see what would happen if I played using it.

Remember, by this time I had already begun to use my CET card with no issue.

So, I purposely sat down at a slot with my card inserted. I wrote about this contemporaneously on WOV but didn't give all this backstory. People were horrified I had tried to gauge a response from security. I was accused of possibly trying to get backroomed on purpose to trick up a lawsuit. People questioned how an AP of my caliber considered this "staying under the radar.". And I admit reading the original post, I was a bit cocky. I was flying high a bit after all the craziness of the past few years I have recounted in this thread.

Perhaps a bit too cocky so as to be misunderstood.

At any rate, here is the original post from September 19th, 2019.

Quote: darkoz

So I go into the Tropicana in AC.

I am NOT trespassed but I know I am flagged there as an advantage player whose MO is to use other players cards.

I purposefully sit at a slot and insert a players card into the machine and start playing waiting to see how long before security shows up.

Took about ten minutes.

Three guards approached from the right, 2 from the left.

When the phalanx closes, the biggest guard who happened to be at the front of the group of three snatches the players card out the slot machine and then demands ID.

I nonchalantly hand my ID over.

The guard stares at the players card and my ID like he just ate some confusing psychedelic mushrooms.

See, I was using my own players card!

And per NJ statute, they cant evict me without cause and they just caught me doing... nothing against the rules.

The security guard handed both back to me without comment and the security circle moved off to the side about 8 feet away.

They conversed together and radioed surveillance standing there for about 5 or so minutes while I smirkingly continued to play.

I have no fear. They do!!!

Anyway....

Here is why security and surveillance is so stupid I can run rings around them all day.

Since its my card flagged, why would they rush out when I am using it

DUHHHHHH!

If I am using my own card you cant do anything.

I suppose that they might have thought I sent someone else in to use my card... but that would just qualify security and surveillance for dumbness of the year award.

You see, they turned my account activity off long time ago. While my card records win/loss, it earns no comps, no free rooms or comp dollars. Its basically a dead card as far as the players club is concerned

So lets say they caught someone else using my card.

Were they seriously going to evict someone who is playing a negative expectations slot with a dead card that earns no advantage just because the card belonged to someone else?

Just proves what dumbies they are.

And how much they truly fear me.

Fun and games of an AP!
link to original post

I don't know if that explains the full motives behind my actions at that time but perhaps everything is a bit clearer now.

At any rate, I wasn't totally happy with hitting the must hits. And then Covid shut down casinos and when they reopened, social distancing shut down half of the must hits which almost always sat side by side. Then the competition really increased.

So I abandoned the must hit experiment!

Perhaps one day I will revisit the must hits.

Next post - an appointment with court in front of the judge.

To be continued

This feels like one of those filler episodes in anime shows where the characters talk for the whole episode in the middle of the action to fill time lol. Anyways I’m enjoying the thread Darkoz

Part Eleven:

Quick recap:. After an eleventh hour discovery of the documents that supposedly proved I was trespassed verbally the day I won the jackpot in January 2018, the DA office was moving forward with prosecution of my defiant trespassing charge for being caught in the Golden Nugget in June of 2018 using other players rewards cards.

I ran through what testimony I was going to deliver over an over until the day finally arrived when the case of the Golden Nugget AC versus Darkoz was going in front of the judge.

I arrived before my attorney. He texted me to sit inside the court room and respond present if they called my case and explain my defense attorney would be in attendance momentarily.

While seated watching the proceedings, two cases were heard. The first was a traffic violation and I drifted off into a daydream. The second case involved someone accused of defiant trespassing just like me and my ears perked up for that one.

It wasn't long after that case was heard that my attorney arrived and motioned me to be seated in the first row bench near him.

When my case was called, he stepped behind a podium on the right side of the court room, pointing to a position two feet to his left for me to stand.

The DA stood behind a podium on the left side with an employee of the Golden Nugget to her left as well.

I noticed the employee was NOT the one who had attended all prior court proceedings, that being the guard who had grabbed me in an arm lock and forcefully guided me to the backroom. Neither was it the security guard who wrote and signed the incident report that claimed I was notified verbally I could not return from the prior incident when I won the jackpot. His was the critical testimony according to my attorney. And he wasn't present.

Instead there was an older man who I had never laid eyes on before. His demeanor pegged him for someone with authority from the Golden Nugget. As someone not witness to the events he could not testify. Anything he had to say was hearsay and inadmissible. I was confused why he was present.

After preliminary introductions, the judge looked through paperwork in front of her desk. She kept flipping through pages. Finally she says, "I have a very solid docket. I don't see anywhere to fit you in for at least two months. Any possibility you guys can come to a settlement or plea agreement?"

I relaxed a bit. This wasn't trial! This was the court date to schedule the trial. Leave it up to the justice system to schedule a date in court to schedule a date in court.

The DA had a whispered discussion with the Golden Nugget mystery employee and I understood the Golden Nugget, with trespassing cases handled all the time, knew this was not a date the security officers testimony was required. They had sent someone who was given authority to confer with the DA in matters of plea or settlement such as the judge was asking.

The DA finally addressed the judge. "Your honor, the defendant is a serial offender who uses other players rewards cards. He has done it in multiple states including Pennsylvania. The Golden Nugget intends to pursue the matter to the fullest extent of the law. We offer no plea agreement at this time."

My attorney stated I do not deny using other players rewards cards but have not been charged in any way. What I do is legal and he intends to prove to the court through a preponderance of evidence I was not guilty of trespassing.

After a moment of silence, the judge suggests (which meant we had to) attempt to find a middle ground. "If you still cannot agree then come back in and we will schedule you in but I am not convinced yet that a plea agreement is out of the question."

So, we all exit the court and the DA motions myself and my attorney into her office. It's the one and only time I was allowed inside the DA's office.

She closes the door. The Golden Nugget representative is waiting outside.

She questions me about the "incident in Pennsylvania". What charges if any were filed. I inform her none. What I do simply isn't illegal.

She questions my attorney what the underlying law says on the matter. He pointed out that there are laws making it illegal to use or steal a patrons offers WITHOUT their permission but it was fine with their permission.

She seemed a bit unsold. My attorney singled out the Golden Nugget report that the DGE officer who responded was informed of my use of multiple cards and would not entertain pressing charges. "If it was inherently illegal, the DGE officer would not have ignored that. He has police powers."

After some ruminating, she rises and calls in the representative from the Golden Nugget.

The DA addresses him. "This is a first offense case. The judge prefers we don't proceed to trial. What do you want to do?"

The Golden Nugget rep was adamant. "He uses other players rewards cards. It's against rules and regulations. Golden Nugget wants to set example. He is guilty of trespassing. There is no doubt about that. He's guilty and we aren't setting for a plea."

The DA turns to me. "Are you certain no one ever told you not to return to the Golden Nugget?"

I made it clear that's what I was first told when they refused to pay me for my jackpot but then I requested the DGE rule and it went in my favor and I left after being paid. I hadn't done anything to be evicted. I stress the point that, "All I did was win a jackpot!"

The Golden Nugget representative then piped in, "we don't need to have a cause for evicting you. We can refuse service to whomever we want."

My attorney hopped in quickly. "You willing to testify to the judge right now you don't need just cause for eviction? Let's go."

The DA glared at the GN rep waiting for a quick response. NJ trespassing was not like anywhere else in the nation. What he had just described was true in other states but NOT New Jersey!

He did respond quickly, extricating himself from his mispeaking.. "He is guilty of trespassing. He was told he couldn't return by our security officer at the time. The reason he is trespassed is for undesirable behavior in the past, specifically his conduct in Pennsylvania."

I spoke up, remembering the last thing the security supervisor had told me was an apology as I left. (I asked you to remember this in previous posts.). "The security supervisor actually said to me, he apologizes for the misunderstanding. He actually ran over to me to make certain I understood it was all a mistake."

The GN rep seemed incredulous and in an accusatory tone, said, "Never! No one from the security department ever approached you and apologized for any mistake the day you won the jackpot. You were being evicted."

One thing I love to do is suggest they look at their camera surveillance. "You viewed the footage? I will point out exactly where he approached me. It was as I left to go down the escalator to the Valet in the center of the main floor."

"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! DESCRIBE HIM?"

I gave a description. Remember this was the guy who first refused to pay me, requesting I leave and nothing I could do on this Earth would make me force him or the Golden Nugget to pay my jackpot and then he changed his tune when I demanded the DGE get involved. I was able to describe him very well.

"That guy doesn't work for security. That's the slots department supervisor!"

"Well, how am I supposed to know that? He was dressed in a spiffy suit and approached me surrounded by security. He didn't identify himself!". Neither of us was shouting but slowly the treble in our discussion was getting elevated.

"Well, I am sorry for you that you were misled but the slots supervisor doesn't have authority when it comes to eviction. That's the sole realm of the security department. That's the way it works!"

Now my attorney pounced. "Is that going to be your testimony? Because to prove defiant trespassing you have to prove my client UNDERSTOOD he was trespassed. The slots supervisor was an authorized employee of the Golden Nugget. If you are willing to testify that my client was misled and didn't understand he was trespassed due to this slots supervisor let's go right now into the court "

"THAT'S NOT WHAT I AM SAYING..."

"HOLD ON, everyone be silent!" shouted the female district attorney (in a strong, authoritative but surprisingly demure voice). All the males in the room suddenly became eerily quiet.

She turned to me amid the electrical emotions in the room. "Excuse me. Please wait outside!"

It was obvious to me the District Attorney had not enjoyed what she had just heard. She was the one who was going to be speaking and attempting to prove the Golden Nugget case.

I sat outside, then, for what seemed a long time, the door to the DA's room shut, me, twiddling my thumbs.

When the door finally opened my attorney motioned me into a corner to discuss my case. "The Golden Nugget offered a plea deal. Guilty to trespassing and pay a $500 fine and no trial. I'm sorry I didn't ask you but I assume you refuse such a deal. Am I correct?"

"If they are NOW offering a plea deal it's because they see how weak their case is. I'm not guilty and I sure am not going to plead to that."

"That's what I thought. I told them no deal "

I was surprised when the Golden Nugget representative approached us. "I tried to make it easy on you. Don't say I didn't."

"I'm not guilty.". It sounded stupid when I said it. Doesn't everyone protest their innocence?

"Yes, you are," was his predictable reply.

He then left the courthouse. His need to be there was over and he had to return, I suppose, to his position at the Golden Nugget. I expected never to see him again.

[Flash forward: I can't say I never saw him again. I ran into him in a convenience store about nine months later. He understood he knew me but couldn't place where. I refreshed his memory and then he actually apologized, said he was under order from the Golden Nugget to press hard. I asked him if I wrote a letter asking for my eviction to be lifted could I address it to him and he said no, he no longer was employed there. He had been let go. He didn't specify why and I didn't ask. He actually gave me the name of who to address the letter to but I didn't write it down. I was only joking about the letter. Flash back to the court house now!]

We were called back into the court and took up our positions in front of the judge. The DA informed her we could not come to a resolution. She confirmed with both attorneys they were available for a date and time two months away. I was not part of the scheduling decision. For all they knew I could have been scheduled to have my gallbladder removed that day. My time wasn't important.

Outside, my attorney seemed confident. "I don't believe you need prepping for trial. You are one of the few clients I ever felt confident saying that. Just testify to the judge what you have told me and you will be fine. Be concise and detailed. Be confident you remember it correctly. I will strike holes in testimony of this security officer who can't even remember the time correct on his written reports. I'll sew doubt that he remembers correctly telling you anything. And then we are in the hands of the judge."

So, we had a reasonable strategy.

By this point in time eight months had passed what with the constant six weeks and two months delays. Trial was set for April, 2019, which was ten months since I was backroomed at the Golden Nugget in June of 2018.

But we were finally going to trial.

To be continued.

Great installment.

Quote: unJon

Great installment.
link to original post

I was really looking forward to writing this one.

Thanks!

If you write the next one sometime in the next few days, I can read it while looking at the Golden Nugget. (I don’t like GN. Didn’t like ‘em before, don’t like ‘em now.)

I just binged watched this whole season in 1 night.

I can't wait for more!

This thread just reinforces my opinion that there are enough interesting stories on this forum to put together a pitch to one of the studios. In the past the TV shows have always centered on the casinos and their staff. I'm thinking maybe a mini-series on Netflix that weaves together multiple player-centric story-lines.. We have

• D-Oz's tale of unjust persecution in AC to provide a window into the not necessarily glamorous life of a successful AP
• the travels of Poker Grinder adds some exotic backdrops and also adds appeal for global marketing (a big plus these days)
• the high-rolling lifestyle a'la MDawg would provide an excuse to include some eye-candy

Quote: TumblingBones

This thread just reinforces my opinion that there are enough interesting stories on this forum to put together a pitch to one of the studios. In the past the TV shows have always centered on the casinos and their staff. I'm thinking maybe a mini-series on Netflix that weaves together multiple player-centric story-lines.. We have

• D-Oz's tale of unjust persecution in AC to provide a window into the not necessarily glamorous life of a successful AP
• the travels of Poker Grinder adds some exotic backdrops and also adds appeal for global marketing (a big plus these days)
• the high-rolling lifestyle a'la MDawg would provide an excuse to include some eye-candy

link to original post

do you own an iphone or a smartphone in general? you can just make the movies yourself with how powerful newer phones are and some movies out today contain footage from the higher quality cell phones

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TumblingBones

This thread just reinforces my opinion that there are enough interesting stories on this forum to put together a pitch to one of the studios. In the past the TV shows have always centered on the casinos and their staff. I'm thinking maybe a mini-series on Netflix that weaves together multiple player-centric story-lines.. We have

• D-Oz's tale of unjust persecution in AC to provide a window into the not necessarily glamorous life of a successful AP
• the travels of Poker Grinder adds some exotic backdrops and also adds appeal for global marketing (a big plus these days)
• the high-rolling lifestyle a'la MDawg would provide an excuse to include some eye-candy

link to original post

do you own an iphone or a smartphone in general? you can just make the movies yourself with how powerful newer phones are and some movies out today contain footage from the higher quality cell phones
link to original post

Half the fun of making a movie is spending the ridiculous budgets the studio gives you.

Quote: billryan

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TumblingBones

This thread just reinforces my opinion that there are enough interesting stories on this forum to put together a pitch to one of the studios. In the past the TV shows have always centered on the casinos and their staff. I'm thinking maybe a mini-series on Netflix that weaves together multiple player-centric story-lines.. We have

• D-Oz's tale of unjust persecution in AC to provide a window into the not necessarily glamorous life of a successful AP
• the travels of Poker Grinder adds some exotic backdrops and also adds appeal for global marketing (a big plus these days)
• the high-rolling lifestyle a'la MDawg would provide an excuse to include some eye-candy

link to original post

do you own an iphone or a smartphone in general? you can just make the movies yourself with how powerful newer phones are and some movies out today contain footage from the higher quality cell phones
link to original post

Half the fun of making a movie is spending the ridiculous budgets the studio gives you.
link to original post

and now you know why tik tok was a success kids aint got time to wait around for some executive to give them permission to do something they are entitled to do already

we all learn something new every day

Quote: heatmap

Quote: billryan

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TumblingBones

This thread just reinforces my opinion that there are enough interesting stories on this forum to put together a pitch to one of the studios. In the past the TV shows have always centered on the casinos and their staff. I'm thinking maybe a mini-series on Netflix that weaves together multiple player-centric story-lines.. We have

• D-Oz's tale of unjust persecution in AC to provide a window into the not necessarily glamorous life of a successful AP
• the travels of Poker Grinder adds some exotic backdrops and also adds appeal for global marketing (a big plus these days)
• the high-rolling lifestyle a'la MDawg would provide an excuse to include some eye-candy

link to original post

do you own an iphone or a smartphone in general? you can just make the movies yourself with how powerful newer phones are and some movies out today contain footage from the higher quality cell phones
link to original post

Half the fun of making a movie is spending the ridiculous budgets the studio gives you.
link to original post

and now you know why tik tok was a success kids aint got time to wait around for some executive to give them permission to do something they are entitled to do already

we all learn something new every day
link to original post

I wonder if each of the stories could fit into the Tik Tok 10 minute limit.
I also wonder if the storytellers will be satisfied with the Tik Tok content monetization system ("LOL NONE" unless you get a brand sponsor to pay you directly to create).

Maybe I can get a cosmetics brand to sponsor me to tell casino stories while I do a smokey eye tutorial and feature the latest palette of lip shades.

It's not about money. It's about having followers. Just as the old Norse gods dies out when people stopped following them, Tik Tok is creating new gods. Most of us have no idea of the power gained by having a few million people following and adoring you.

Do you realize that each year more than a thousand TV shows are pitched but fewer than a dozen actually get picked up?

Frankly I'd love to see a reality show about PLAYERS but would the CASINOS grant access?

I still hope that one day the shooter who threw the 18 yos will find this forum and post.

Don't forget guys, I worked in Hollywood, pitching scripts which never got made while working as a technician on blockbuster films

Yes, a 15 year career on blockbuster films. One of those 500 names you guys walk out on. I was low enough on the totem pole that my family would berate me every time we went to see one of my films (because by the time my name scrolled by the lights had been long on, the ushers already passed us doing cleaning and every seat in the house empty but of course I made them wait for my name).

I used to joke that getting something done in Hollywood was harder than beating a casino. I was just joking and then I discovered AP.

So, yeah, it's easier to beat a casino than break into Hollywood

Quote: AlanMendelson

Frankly I'd love to see a reality show about PLAYERS but would the CASINOS grant access?

Ever see Fox's The Casino? That featured a number of players, and it was obvious that most, if not all, of them were in on this from the beginning as there were scenes of them traveling to the casino (which, BTW, was the Golden Nugget right after Poster and Breitling acquired it).

What I would like to see is a scene where somebody goes into one of the casino's big-ticket shops, and when asked how they are going to pay for some item, respond, "Do you know how many Internet followers I have? You should be paying me for this exposure!"

Quote: billryan

It's not about money. It's about having followers. Just as the old Norse gods dies out when people stopped following them, Tik Tok is creating new gods. Most of us have no idea of the power gained by having a few million people following and adoring you.
link to original post

probably 99.99 % of the Tik Tok and YT stars with a million plus followers are under 30 and probably 98% of them are under 25

and the stuff that they're into is new world stuff that most people over 50 can't relate to at all - and often can't even understand what's going on


.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Do you realize that each year more than a thousand TV shows are pitched but fewer than a dozen actually get picked up?

Frankly I'd love to see a reality show about PLAYERS but would the CASINOS grant access?

I still hope that one day the shooter who threw the 18 yos will find this forum and post.
link to original post

He is also the real killer of Nicole Brown Simpson!

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: billryan

It's not about money. It's about having followers. Just as the old Norse gods dies out when people stopped following them, Tik Tok is creating new gods. Most of us have no idea of the power gained by having a few million people following and adoring you.
link to original post

probably 99.99 % of the Tik Tok and YT stars with a million plus followers are under 30 and probably 98% of them are under 25

and the stuff that they're into is new world stuff that most people over 50 can't relate to at all - and often can't even understand what's going on


.
link to original post

Yes, anyone over 25 who has ever seen a Roblox video just walks away shaking their head.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: billryan

It's not about money. It's about having followers. Just as the old Norse gods dies out when people stopped following them, Tik Tok is creating new gods. Most of us have no idea of the power gained by having a few million people following and adoring you.
link to original post

probably 99.99 % of the Tik Tok and YT stars with a million plus followers are under 30 and probably 98% of them are under 25

and the stuff that they're into is new world stuff that most people over 50 can't relate to at all - and often can't even understand what's going on


.
link to original post

Yes, anyone over 25 who has ever seen a Roblox video just walks away shaking their head.
link to original post

100% house edge. Pay to play, can't cash out.
Someone is on to something.

I think your assessments on the TikTok demographics may be off. A lot of soccer moms fall outside that demographic.

Tik Tok is no different from crypto or tech. Figure out what Levi Strause would do and go from there.

Duplicate post delated

Quote: mwalz9

I just binged watched this whole season in 1 night.

I can't wait for more!
link to original post

Ditto, except during the afternoon!

Thank you for your story so far, Darkoz! I look forward to reading more…

Part twelve:

I have taken you guys up to the point where trial is set. Let us now timeskip backwards to see the Genesis of this chapter in my life and that, as mentioned is the "incident in Pennsylvania!".

In 2014, the following thread asked if using other people's players cards was illegal. On the first page, KewlJ stated in Pennsylvania, it's definitely illegal with a $5000 fine. I don't know where he got the info, I am certain he believed it, but he was wrong.

You can read the thread here. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/all-other/22695-is-it-illegal-to-play-on-a-another-persons-players-card-in-a-casino/

Pennsylvania has a specific law about "access devices" which criminalizes use of an access device WITHOUT the permission of the person the access is conferred upon. The key words being WITHOUT permission. With permission isn't against the law.

Access devices are defined as any device giving access to a companies operating systems for the purpose of usage by a customer.

Credit cards are devices giving access to a customer for the purpose of making payments on credit. CVS shopping club cards and of course casinos rewards cards are all access devices

Even your Netflix app which confers on you a password for you to access your paid service qualifies. Hand your friend your Netflix login info so he can watch Netflix and you are not committing a crime. Someone stealing your password information and logging in to watch Netflix for free is illegal.

It's all common sense when you think about it!

So, regardless of that thread I followed, I was aware it wasn't illegal. From 2014-2016, I hit Pennsylvania casinos, using a rotation from property to property. Atlantic City had all their casinos congregated together so someone like me [using the Bus :)] could easily hit multiple locations and do maybe four cards per location so it added up to twenty cards. But Pennsylvania was different. Casinos are spread out, between half an hour to two hours apart and that's using a car. When I hit a Pennsylvania casino I needed to make my travel worthwhile so I hit each specific property in turn with ten, twenty and even thirty cards.

Sugarhouse (now Rivers) had been really good although they had a glitchy system and employees who were clueless in fixing issues. If a card didn't get offers they just acted like that was normal.

At least Sugarhouse was rather simple for me travel wise. Greyhound from Port Authority to Philly, ten minutes cab ride.

Now Valley Forge was really in the middle of West Bubble Fork. Nothing anywhere near (a big shopping mall about twenty minutes away). After the two hours ride to Philly I had to take a bus for another 90 minutes but it dropped me off right on the corner of the casino

Valley Forge was small. Their website says 600 slots. You could walk around the entire gaming floor in about five minutes if that. Also, at that time they had a weirdo status as some type of private club casino forced on them by the state due to some slight legislation. This meant you could not simply walk in. The gaming area was enclosed with entry points guarded by "subway style" turnstiles and an attendant security guard. You had to pay to get in!

You had to go to the rewards desk and pay $10 for a daily access card or you could pay $80 for an annual pass.

As a result, the Valley Forge was never really crowded. People don't like paying to get in before they even have made one wager. And as far as hustlers and certainly, vultures, this place was a desert(notwithstanding deserts are actually where you find vultures but I am turning a phrase). At least as far as I observed.

When my daughter and her hubby, my partners in AP, signed up for their rewards cards and walked around the sparse gaming floor, they accused me of being nuts. "Dad, you're gonna hit this place? Surveillance has a tiny footprint to observe and hardly any customers to observe at that!"

I felt it had great opportunity. I felt they were so unused to AP tactics that I might fly right under the radar. Also, due to their circumstances, they had really strong offers. Freeplay five days a week (sometimes six if they didn't give gifts away), really good gift giveaways, free food, hotels, etc. And the Freeplay could be used at VBJ which meant a nearly 100% turnover, with just lousy blackjack rules (BJ pays even money for example) to contend with.

I didn't have people I trusted to collect my offers at that time, (my son hated the business and avoided my AP if possible and I just told you how my daughter felt about hitting the Valley Forge). But the Valley Forge freeplay had to be activated first each day which made it available for 48 hours. That meant I could theoretically take a day off and just pay someone to go activate the offers. I would have a double day when I returned (freeplay from the day before plus the current day).

They clearly didn't want to make their patrons pay to get in. It was being forced on them by the state gaming rules so a $10 entrance fee came with a $10 food court coupon to make it feel free. And the $80 annual fee came with an $80 dinner same day right on the rewards card

So I brought everyone who got me cards the annual membership. After all, getting everyone to travel all day, my people had an expectation I was covering lunch anyway.

My intuition about Valley Forge was correct. I hit them, for multiple cards, not just once, but twice. Each time, armed with first ten, then nineteen cards, my time in the Valley Forge was fun, profitable and easy peasey.

So in December, 2016 I had set up another 27 cards (with my own card making 28) and had no fear or concerns about the operation. Due to my rotation of properties I hadn't actually hit the Valley Forge since the summer. The coast, as they say, was clear.

I was going to be there all week so I split the cards into two groups. One group I only activated the freeplay for the next day, the other I both activated and gambled. And then vice versa every other day. In this manner, I had offers for all twenty seven cards every day but only played through the offers on half the cards each day

It was my first day, literally of taking offers. As I cycled through everything seemed fine until I came upon one particular card.

Now I had a long time acquaintance we will call Mr. X. And he always brought along his wife, Mrs Patricia X. When I came to Mrs Patricia X card I immediately knew something was wrong. Her player's points and comp dollars were excessively large. Not something I would have earned her and I knew she wouldn't have gambled herself. On top of that, her offers didn't appear.

Offers sometimes don't appear. There are numerous reasons. Glitches like at Sugarhouse, mailers returned by the post office can have offers taken down in Atlantic City. So, I wasn't worried yet. I needed Mrs. Patricia X to come down and enquire with her mail as proof she had offers. I had seen her mailers so I knew she was given offers

I moved on, the high comp dollars a nagging thought.

Now Mr. X had another friend he brought along named Ms.Patricia Z. I also had her card and when I arrived at it, she too had a weirdly high comp dollars amount and no offers.

When I finished my day I left a message with Mr. X. He was reliable enough I didn't stress myself.

I activated the 11 cards in that group the next day(the 13 cards now 11 without the two Patricia cards) and left another message with Mr. X.

The third day was really my second taking these offers from this group of cards. I still didn't have a reply from Mr. X. I was starting to lose money now. When I finished all the freeplay I walked to the food court and tried Mr. X again. This time he answered.

He apologized for being busy. He had my message and would drive Mrs Patricia X down on the weekend with her mail.

"Hey, let's save some gas and tolls. Make certain you bring Miss Patricia Z with you as well."

There was a definable pause. "You think that's wise?"

"Sure, I want those cards fixed ASAP and you clearly have a very busy schedule to make it all the way to Pennsylvania more than once. I don't want to wait another week for you to drive back."

"Ooookay! Soz how should I do this? Take my wife in to fix her card, then go to eat and hope we get a different attendant when we return?"

I froze! Suddenly it became clear to me. "Are you telling me Patricia X and Patricia Z are both your wife?"

"Yes, I thought you knew! Patricia Z is her ID in her maiden name. I have been bringing her all this time. It's never been a problem "

The extremely high comps dollars. Those two accounts had been merged, the comp dollars added together. If I had written them down I would have noticed they probably were for exactly the same amount. And the offers were wiped clean by marketing as they smelled a scam from someone using two different ID's. And if they had wiped clean the offers, then they felt threatened. They probably flagged the cards, to be triggered when I inserted them into the slots so they could get a visual of who was using them. And that would lead them to following me to all my cards which probably had been further tagged and flagged.

The whole food court was spinning before me. I informed Mr. X not to bother bringing his wife down. I told him he probably endangered my whole operation. He didn't believe it.

But I felt suddenly closed in. I could not wait for my food anymore. I had to escape from there so I could think. Forgoing the food court, I went to the restroom, to relieve myself before my long bus trip.

So, it wasn't totally a surprise when I exited the restroom and two State troopers awaited me. Their badges were out and they motioned me to come over.

It was a male and female. The male did most of the talking. "Surveillance has observed you using different players rewards cards. Are those people present in the casino?"

"No, but I do have their permission to use their cards. They know I am here with them."

He nodded his head. "You have a means to contact them?"

I informed him I had all their phone numbers. He said I would have to accompany him to his office located right on the property.

"Do I have a choice? Can I just leave?"

"No!"

And so he led the way.

I had already been backroomed at Resorts World in Queen's NY. They had searched all my belongings without permission. But this was different. The officers never searched my person. I wasn't yet under arrest.

They asked for me to hand over the cards. The trooper had a list of the names of eleven cards laid out in front of him. That told me they weren't following the activation of the offers. Just the downloads.

They asked for the cards and I handed over the eleven from the days batch. I held back the fourteen from the activation only batch.

The troopers spread them out on the table and the male trooper randomly lifted a card up and told me to contact that person.

It was a female friend of my daughter who I had known for many years. Since she was school age. She had an unmistakable and rare name, we will just use Jawacotemah. (I made that name up for a screenplay I wrote as a joke. It's not real).

I supplied the number from my phone and put my phone down on the desk. The trooper called the number and got a reply. He confirmed the person speaking was Jawacotemah and informed her he was a police officer from Pennsylvania, that she was in no way in any legal jeopardy but he needed to confirm that she had given permission for her offers at the Valley Forge Casino to be used by another individual and he supplied my name.

She replied, (wait for it) No! She had not given anyone permission to use her rewards card and had never heard my name before.

Now you probably think I was starting to panic. I was definitely flustered! But I knew they would need victims impact statements and she would need to testify and that she wouldn't do that.

When the officer thanked her and hung up his phone he just glared at me. "She doesn't claim to even know you."

"Well, you see I have her correct phone number. She is probably nervous because you identified yourself as a police officer. Some people don't trust police and she is young. She is only twenty six."

He just gave me that "yeah, right" look. "It could be like you say, but what do you think this looks like to me," he asked?

And then my cellphone began bleeping. It was laying on the table where I had laid it and the caller ID was "Jawacotemah's mom"

I quickly flashed the phone screen. "That's her mom calling me. How much you want to bet soon as she hung up with you she called her mom for advice? May I answer it?"

He nodded and I put the phone on speaker, and then said to the caller, "Hello! Is everything good with you?"

"Hi, I am fine. But are you okay? Jawacotemah just called me and said the police are holding you at the casino with our cards."

"Yes I am fine, but they are holding me for using them. Would you mind speaking with the officers?"

"Uhhhm, well what do I tell them?"

" Just say you gave..." I suddenly stopped and looked up at the officers who's eyes were boring into me.

"Just tell them the truth. I don't want them to say I suggested any answers to you."

And Suddenly the dynamic had altered. The male trooper smiled at me. Not a friendly smile but a knowing smile. He suddenly understood I wasn't a lowbrow con and thief but someone intimate with knowledge of the law. If he wasn't persuaded before he knew now that I most likely wasn't guilty of theft.

He confirmed with Jawacotemah mom I did have permission to use her card. He confirmed Jawacotemah birthday which her mom knew and which he had in front of him from the casino records.

After that he selected randomly four cards. Two people went to voicemail. Two answered and confirmed they gave me permission to use their cards. The trooper always asked for them to confirm their birthdays as proof he was speaking to the right person. And he always assured them they were not in any trouble themselves.

The officer recorded the remaining numbers and said he would call them later to confirm. But I was free to go now. He was of course confiscating the players cards he was handed.

"Am I going to be evicted from the premises?"

"Not my decision. Valley Forge will decide."

He called in an executive from the casino, youngish to me, late thirties perhaps. He explained to the executive that for now I was cleared as far as any crime of theft of promo offers was concerned.

The executive looked at me directly. "That's a relief. So, why do you have so many peoples cards?"

I didn't lie. Well, not quite. "You see we all live in New York. Who can travel all the way to PA five days a week? People work. So they gave me their player's cards and pins and authorized me to pick up their offers."

He silently brooded. Getting caught so quickly, on just the second time, actually worked in my favor and made him pause. The offers were high. He wasn't looking at low rollers. And remember, everyone had paid for a years membership for access to the casino. The situation looked a bit different at the Valley Forge.

"You know we thought the worst. We thought you were stealing offers. We had to call in the troopers."

"I understand. You did the wise thing.".

"Alright, I won't evict you. However you cannot use other players rewards cards. That's absolutely against the rules. If we catch you doing it again you will be evicted. I'm not going to remove these players offers either but I am pin locking their cards. They can fix them when they come to take their own offers."

I understood now for certain they didn't know I had victimized them twice before. This whole operation put in jeopardy due to one person trying to get an extra payment for obtaining casino cards.

And so I was walked back to the main gaming floor having just scraped by without an eviction.

But collectively, there was a lot of money left on the table so to speak. I had invested both time and a sizable outlay of cash for those offers

I wasn't about to leave that behind.

It had been nearly two years since I had "gone to war". Trying to evade casino surveillance when they were hotzone heavy, when they were practically searching for you. Wars were expensive. Already, offers were going to be lost, players would have to be paid to fix pins. I tried to avoid a war with the casino as much as possible.

But as I focused on the situation at hand on my (yes long) bus ride home, I knew there was no other choice.

The ValIey Forge was now a hot zone I was now at war with the Valley Forge!

To be continued

If you take a look at the current PA access device fraud law, I'm wondering if the law has changed since this story or if it was the same. There is a clause which potentially criminalizes use of an access device without permission of the issuer.

I'm still wondering if your operation was as profitable as you said it was?

This Valley Forge report does include references to previous high play by the card holders.

Again, I'm trying to determine what percentage of previous play was rebated in free play. Care to tell?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm still wondering if your operation was as profitable as you said it was?

This Valley Forge report does include references to previous high play by the card holders.

Again, I'm trying to determine what percentage of previous play was rebated in free play. Care to tell?
link to original post

That's for next part.

Just curious what you think is possible.

Quote: randomperson

If you take a look at the current PA access device fraud law, I'm wondering if the law has changed since this story or if it was the same. There is a clause which potentially criminalizes use of an access device without permission of the issuer.
link to original post

Can you post the clause in question.

I just looked and didn't see anything that potentially looks to make it illegal.

In fact there appears a very good clause for the AP using freeplay. Circled below!



As you can see there is a clear defense that if the defendant can show he was intending to meet all obligation imposed by the issuer, then he is not guilty.

Of course, there isn't any obligation to make good or due on free services. Simply showing through a preponderance of the evidence that free items have no due obligation and the defendant certainly could meet all due obligation to the issuer for items that are gifts not requiring remuneration would enough to keep use of the cards legal.

Or simply put, the casino cannot ask for free gifts to now be paid for.

EDIT:. Even considering use of a credit card that defense specifically decriminalizes use with permission.

For example, you allow your best friend use of your CC. Your best friend defense is he can make good on the obligation to the issuer because you intend to pay the bill since you gave him permission to use it.

Certainly you didn't give him permission to use your credit card and you don't intend to pay it, right?

Eagerly awaiting the next exciting episode.

The bit with the two Patricias could almost be interstitial filler between laundry soap advertisements.


Alan, it may not mean much, but my lousy math skills say that darkoz' numbers could be legit. No problems from me if you take that with a grain of salt and a wedge of lime.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm still wondering if your operation was as profitable as you said it was?

This Valley Forge report does include references to previous high play by the card holders.

Again, I'm trying to determine what percentage of previous play was rebated in free play. Care to tell?
link to original post

That's for next part.

Just curious what you think is possible.
link to original post

One-percent of coin-in as cash back is very generous. One-tenth of one percent is typical.
But I don't rule out signup bonuses. However with signup bonuses I can't imagine routine bonuses being more than $25-$100 unless someone got lucky and won $1,000 with a wheel spin.

That's what I think is possible.

Quote: Dieter

Alan, it may not mean much, but my lousy math skills say that darkoz' numbers could be legit. No problems from me if you take that with a grain of salt and a wedge of lime.
link to original post

Until we know the coin in there's no math to figure.

Dunning- Kruger effect in play here.

Quote: Hunterhill

Dunning- Kruger effect in play here.
link to original post

You're insulting someone by saying this and I hope it's not me.

I'm asking a question any news reporter would ask when someone has claimed that by using a variety of players cards they've had income of up to $20,000 a week.

We need to know how much free play the cards had, how much play or sign up bonuses were needed to generate that free play, and then what were the actual games played that generated that $20,000 of income.

To date all we've been told is that he has played 20 or more cards.

If he's revealed more than that I've missed it.

Respectfully Mr De…. Please don’t answer this question. It Depends would be sufficient. After 9 years of lurking here I literally created an account to ask you not to answer. We have been very close to each other over the years although never formally meeting. With the current conditions in our part of the country changing so drastically
( Like for example the GN Purge in January ) I think it would be prudent to keep build specific trade secrets well secret. No need to try and prove to the non believers what you make. Those in this game understand. I appreciate the insight regarding casino security protocols. That’s real Value for APs , and doesn’t give away much to anyone else.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Dieter

Alan, it may not mean much, but my lousy math skills say that darkoz' numbers could be legit. No problems from me if you take that with a grain of salt and a wedge of lime.
link to original post

Until we know the coin in there's no math to figure.
link to original post

Fair enough. Like I said, my math is lousy.

Quote: Seedvalue

Respectfully Mr De…. Please don’t answer this question. It Depends would be sufficient. After 9 years of lurking here I literally created an account to ask you not to answer.
link to original post

Welcome to the forum. You also make a good point.

Quote: Seedvalue

Respectfully Mr De…. Please don’t answer this question. It Depends would be sufficient. After 9 years of lurking here I literally created an account to ask you not to answer. We have been very close to each other over the years although never formally meeting. With the current conditions in our part of the country changing so drastically
( Like for example the GN Purge in January ) I think it would be prudent to keep build specific trade secrets well secret. No need to try and prove to the non believers what you make. Those in this game understand. I appreciate the insight regarding casino security protocols. That’s real Value for APs , and doesn’t give away much to anyone else.
link to original post

I agree.

I wrote a book about my learning experience in AP. It chronicles my first two and a half years self teaching, showing how I came upon what I do.

It reads much like this thread although they are my earlier adventures.

The book has been finished for years but I never moved forward to publishing because I feel it gives away too much. How do you say I learned this but can't explain how or what. That would make up ridiculous chapter after chapter.

And so the book remains unpublished.

The casinos currently don't have the ability to understand fully what we do. In the dossier from the Golden Nugget they wrote down their observations and explanation of what I do and they are just silly and ridiculous.

But I haven't made a secret I make $20,000 a week (but not every week) so it's not a biggie to prove that at least. The casinos already know what I am capable of.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Hunterhill

Dunning- Kruger effect in play here.
link to original post

You're insulting someone by saying this and I hope it's not me.

I'm asking a question any news reporter would ask when someone has claimed that by using a variety of players cards they've had income of up to $20,000 a week.

We need to know how much free play the cards had, how much play or sign up bonuses were needed to generate that free play, and then what were the actual games played that generated that $20,000 of income.

To date all we've been told is that he has played 20 or more cards.

If he's revealed more than that I've missed it.
link to original post

I will answer how much Freeplay the cards had because that information is literally in the dossiers from the golden Nugget.

The dossiers try to explain how I get the offers and they are wrong in a ridiculous manner. So, I can't explain that. As you see by reading this thread, the casinos aren't without their weapons. I can't supply them with the specific knowledge you seek.

EDIT:. Getting comped one tenth of one percent? That sounds like the Parx casino where I got a $10 cheeseburger comped for my play, lol. Stay away from Parx!!!

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Dieter

Alan, it may not mean much, but my lousy math skills say that darkoz' numbers could be legit. No problems from me if you take that with a grain of salt and a wedge of lime.
link to original post

Until we know the coin in there's no math to figure.
link to original post

Think of the book or the movie. When the Great and Mighty Oz says look to the left, it is because he doesn't want you looking to the right. You keep looking at one thing and missing the whole picture. See the forest, not the tree.

Quote: darkoz

Can you post the clause in question.

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

(1) uses an access device to obtain or in an attempt to obtain property or services with knowledge that:

(i) the access device is counterfeit, altered or incomplete;

(ii) the access device was issued to another person who has not authorized its use;

(iii) the access device has been revoked or canceled; or

(iv) for any other reason his use of the access device is unauthorized by the issuer or the device holder

Point iv is the most interesting point for this discussion.

So I think your defense to this is akin to saying that a players card is not actually an access device because what it accesses does not fit the definition, something which I'm very sympathetic to. Where along the path did we come out and admit one of the most obvious bad things anyway?

I'm wondering whether its possible this clause was added after what you did to try and make it illegal in the future.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm still wondering if your operation was as profitable as you said it was?

This Valley Forge report does include references to previous high play by the card holders.

Again, I'm trying to determine what percentage of previous play was rebated in free play. Care to tell?
link to original post

That's for next part.

Just curious what you think is possible.
link to original post

One-percent of coin-in as cash back is very generous. One-tenth of one percent is typical.
But I don't rule out signup bonuses. However with signup bonuses I can't imagine routine bonuses being more than $25-$100 unless someone got lucky and won $1,000 with a wheel spin.

That's what I think is possible.
link to original post

I can tell you that at one Caesar's property I was getting close to 10% freeplay based on coin in (most of it was marketing freeplay). I abused that one for many years.

Quote: randomperson

Quote: darkoz

Can you post the clause in question.

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

(1) uses an access device to obtain or in an attempt to obtain property or services with knowledge that:

(i) the access device is counterfeit, altered or incomplete;

(ii) the access device was issued to another person who has not authorized its use;

(iii) the access device has been revoked or canceled; or

(iv) for any other reason his use of the access device is unauthorized by the issuer or the device holder

Point iv is the most interesting point for this discussion.

So I think your defense to this is akin to saying that a players card is not actually an access device because what it accesses does not fit the definition, something which I'm very sympathetic to. Where along the path did we come out and admit one of the most obvious bad things anyway?

I'm wondering whether its possible this clause was added after what you did to try and make it illegal in the future.
link to original post

I understand your reading of point four but it's trumped by point two AND the defense to prosecution written into the same law.

Point two is "the access device WAS issued to ANOTHER person who has NOT authorized it's use. (Emphasis mine).

The interpretation of this can only be that it is okay to use another person's card who was issued the card and HAS authorized it's use.

Combine that with the defense written to prosecution. If you can prove through a preponderance of evidence that all obligation to the issuer was going to be met, well, the easiest thing is to have the card holder say, yes, he gave permission for the cards use and he fully intended to pay the bill.

With casino freebies it's even harder to for a prosecution to claim the obligation to the issuer cannot be met. Free stuff has no obligation.

The way it's written, I have no qualms about operating in Pennsylvania if I so choose.

The four points are joined by an “or” which means that point four alone is enough to meet the criteria for the crime.

Quote: randomperson

Quote: darkoz

Can you post the clause in question.

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

(1) uses an access device to obtain or in an attempt to obtain property or services with knowledge that:

(i) the access device is counterfeit, altered or incomplete;

(ii) the access device was issued to another person who has not authorized its use;

(iii) the access device has been revoked or canceled; or

(iv) for any other reason his use of the access device is unauthorized by the issuer or the device holder

Quote: randomperson

The four points are joined by an “or” which means that point four alone is enough to meet the criteria for the crime.
link to original post

I am not an attorney but after two court cases I have some experience reading these laws. I have gone over them with attorneys. So I am somewhat more attuned to "legalese"

The fourth point IF read alone would make you correct but it isn't alone. It's an extension followed by a defense.

A) a person commits an offense if he:

1) uses an access device to obtain or in an attempt to obtain property or services with knowledge that:

Ii) the access device was issued to another person who HAS NOT authorized it's use

Iv) FOR ANY OTHER REASON his use of the access device is unauthorized by the issuer OR the device holder.




Please note that the defense is quite specific as to which part of the law it pertains. "It is a defense to a prosecution under SUBSECTION a (1) IV".

IV is literally the part you are citing.

Not a defense to section a (1) I (use of counterfeit) nor even two (use WITHOUT permission of the person it was issued to) and not III (the access device was revoked or cancelled) but specifically point iv alone.

So the full body of the law makes it legal to use a card without authorization of either the card issuer OR the card holder if the person can show they intended to meet all obligations arising out of their use of the card.

The OR then doesn't mean what you think. It means if someone uses the card without permission of the ISSUER (and doesn't intend to honor the obligations that arise) OR someone uses the card without permission of the CARD HOLDER (and doesn't intend to honor the obligations that arise), then he has committed the offense.

Your argument may very well be correct but I don't find it satisfying. We essentially get to a point where the only reason why something is legal is because technically you met all your obligations ONLY because no obligations existed. And ultimately what that means is that this law is not written to address this issue. Although I wouldn't put it past a good DA to argue that your "obligation" was to play at the level that justified the offer.

And this is the problem with anyone pursuing charges against someone for doing a card play. All the attempts are made with laws that weren't written to address this issue. Access device fraud is meant to address someone stealing using other peoples credit cards. Theft by deception is meant to address classic conmen issues. Identity theft is meant to address someone stealing someone's personal information to steal money. In all cases, the application fails because the laws weren't written with player's cards in mind. Its like the fact that playing with computers used to be legal until specific laws were made to outlaw their use.

Quote: randomperson

Your argument may very well be correct but I don't find it satisfying. We essentially get to a point where the only reason why something is legal is because technically you met all your obligations ONLY because no obligations existed. And ultimately what that means is that this law is not written to address this issue. Although I wouldn't put it past a good DA to argue that your "obligation" was to play at the level that justified the offer.

And this is the problem with anyone pursuing charges against someone for doing a card play. All the attempts are made with laws that weren't written to address this issue. Access device fraud is meant to address someone stealing using other peoples credit cards. Theft by deception is meant to address classic conmen issues. Identity theft is meant to address someone stealing someone's personal information to steal money. In all cases, the application fails because the laws weren't written with player's cards in mind. Its like the fact that playing with computers used to be legal until specific laws were made to outlaw their use.
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Well as to using the "obligation to play" aspect, keep reading this thread. It comes up!

I'm no lawyer but I've negotiated a lot of contracts so FWIW I think your interpretation is problematic for two reasons. The first is the one previously note re the use of "or" in the text. The second issue I have is the counter-argument you make (i.e., the "Defense" clause) explicitly states that the actor (e.g., "Dark Oz") had the intent of meeting all obligations imposed by the issuer (i.e., the casino) regarding the usage of the access device. That means that the Terms of Service (ToS) imposed by the issuer and agreed to by the card holder when they accept and start using the card. If the ToS states that cards can't be loaned then while you may be off the hook, the folks providing you with use of their cards may be subject to civil litigation.