GN AC vs. Darkoz

Quote: MDawg

So then who is this guy?


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That's me!

Why is this difficult for you?

The main reason I didn't comment on this thread before is, wasn't this all posted about in minute detail at WOV years ago? You and I went back and forth discussing it with a hundred or so posts until we both got suspended over the fact that you would not admit that you had been arrested (via citation). Is this something new or the same ol' story from years ago? What's new about it?

The only thing new for me was that you posted that pic, which is why I was drawn to comment.

Quote: MDawg

The main reason I didn't comment on this thread before is, wasn't this all posted about in minute detail at WOV years ago? You and I went back and forth discussing it with a hundred or so posts until we both got suspended over the fact that you would not admit that you had been arrested (via citation). Is this something new or the same ol' story from years ago? What's new about it?

The only thing new for me was that you posted that pic, which is why I was drawn to comment.
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This is the story pertaining to the argument we had.

At that time I told you I had been arrested and no more. So this is simply the long version as opposed to saying, "I got backroomed. End of story."

I believe the argument was over whether getting a citation counted as being arrested. I feel arrest is when you get taken to jail. A citation is when you get a ticket.

I don't know why you say nothing is new to you. I never described the details or even the location of the incident until this thread.

But let's not revisit that. It got us both suspended years ago like you said.

I hope it's not the end of the story yet.
That would be a lousy denouement to jump from waiting for the next court date straight to Wiffle tables.

Quote: Dieter

I hope it's not the end of the story yet.
That would be a lousy denouement to jump from waiting for the next court date straight to Wiffle tables.
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No, there are several more posts to make. Don't let coachbelly and MDawg spoil the suspense.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Dieter

I hope it's not the end of the story yet.
That would be a lousy denouement to jump from waiting for the next court date straight to Wiffle tables.
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No, there are several more posts to make. Don't let coachbelly and MDawg spoil the suspense.
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This movie is too long. And it's not a series for ratings week on TV.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Dieter

I hope it's not the end of the story yet.
That would be a lousy denouement to jump from waiting for the next court date straight to Wiffle tables.
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No, there are several more posts to make. Don't let coachbelly and MDawg spoil the suspense.
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This movie is too long. And it's not a series for ratings week on TV.
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So leave. You didn't even pay a ticket for admission.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Dieter

I hope it's not the end of the story yet.
That would be a lousy denouement to jump from waiting for the next court date straight to Wiffle tables.
link to original post

No, there are several more posts to make. Don't let coachbelly and MDawg spoil the suspense.
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This movie is too long. And it's not a series for ratings week on TV.
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So leave. You didn't even pay a ticket for admission.
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But I bought the extra large popcorn!

Last time I recall a Darkoz story it was about theft, and it was a great read but EvenBob tried ruining the thread.

Looking forward to more installments.

A Desk Appearance Ticket is issued by a police officer to an arrested person, bypassing the traditional processing at the police station, saving the arresting officer and the person several hours of paperwork. Once in court, a person who received the DAT is treated exactly the same as anyone who had been arrested, processed, and given bail.
They are mostly issued for violations or minor misdemeanors where the person can present a government-issued picture id.
Failure to appear in court for a DAT will, in most cases, result in an additional arrest warrant.
It's a streamlined process of arresting the person and releasing them on their own recognizance..

Quote: billryan

A Desk Appearance Ticket is issued by a police officer to an arrested person, bypassing the traditional processing at the police station, saving the arresting officer and the person several hours of paperwork. Once in court, a person who received the DAT is treated exactly the same as anyone who had been arrested, processed, and given bail.
They are mostly issued for violations or minor misdemeanors where the person can present a government-issued picture id.
Failure to appear in court for a DAT will, in most cases, result in an additional arrest warrant.
It's a streamlined process of arresting the person and releasing them on their own recognizance..
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Well I will concede the point. I'm not perfect.

I just feel most people, for example drivers, if they get a speeding ticket will say "I got ticketed", not "I got arrested."

A speeding ticket is not a DAT. Most speeding tickets are violations, not misdemeanors.

If a NYC teacher gets a speeding ticket, they are under no obligation to tell anyone. If the same person gets a DAT, they are required to inform the school administration and their union rep. The same goes for a lot of jobs in government, financial services, and the military.
A few years ago, a US Senator was issued a DAT for his behavior in a men's room. He thought it was like a speeding ticket and just plead guilty. It ended up costing him his career.

Quote: billryan

A speeding ticket is not a DAT. Most speeding tickets are violations, not misdemeanors.

That is an incorrect statement. In criminal law, there are two basic categories of law: Felony or misdemeanor. Receiving a citation for any misdemeanor is an arrest subject to a court appearance or the instantaneous payment of an imposed fine which also asserts a guilty plea. Non-payment of the imposed fine will allow the court to issue a bench warrant for a mandatory court appearance.

tuttigym

Most traffic violations are infractions, not misdemeanors. A failure to appear (FTA) for an infraction might lead to a misdemeanor warrant, but the misdemeanor would be for the FTA, not the infraction itself.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: billryan

A speeding ticket is not a DAT. Most speeding tickets are violations, not misdemeanors.

That is an incorrect statement. In criminal law, there are two basic categories of law: Felony or misdemeanor. Receiving a citation for any misdemeanor is an arrest subject to a court appearance or the instantaneous payment of an imposed fine which also asserts a guilty plea. Non-payment of the imposed fine will allow the court to issue a bench warrant for a mandatory court appearance.

tuttigym
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Are you suggesting that speeding tickets are either misdemeanors or felonies?

Quote: MDawg

Most traffic violations are infractions, not misdemeanors. A failure to appear (FTA) for an infraction might lead to a misdemeanor warrant, but the misdemeanor would be for the FTA, not the infraction itself.
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In NY, you can get a DAT for failure to appear, which I think is a joke. If you fail to follow thru with a DAT and don't show up for court, I'd at least make you post bail.
Years ago, I received a DAT for being stupid. The ticket said to show up in court at a certain date and time. After talking to some people, I decided I'd hire a lawyer. I show up in court and am told that I missed my date. I'm in a panic, thinking they will issue a warrant for my arrest. It turned out that private lawyers got hearings in the morning and my lawyer had shown up and when I didn't he got the case pushed back a few weeks.
He worked out a deal with the ADA that if I stayed out of trouble for six months, they would close the case. Officially, the charges were dropped and the arrest voided as if it never existed but it popped up on a few security checks. When I asked the lawyer what to say if I was asked if I was ever arrested, he said not to answer that question. He said employers could ask about convictions, but not about arrests.

Quote: billryan

Are you suggesting that speeding tickets are either misdemeanors or felonies?
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I am NOT SUGGESTING; traffic citations ARE all misdemeanors. They are, by law, criminal events and are adjudicated as prescribed by state code. Try not paying a speeding ticket and see where you end up. What do you THINK a speeding ticket is?

tuttigym

Quote: MDawg

Most traffic violations are infractions, not misdemeanors. A failure to appear (FTA) for an infraction might lead to a misdemeanor warrant, but the misdemeanor would be for the FTA, not the infraction itself.
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I would agree with you MDawg, but then we both would be wrong. Infractions are rule breaking; citations (speeding tickets) are law breaking.

Someone here on this forum suggested that you are a lawyer. They obviously were wrong.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: billryan

Are you suggesting that speeding tickets are either misdemeanors or felonies?
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I am NOT SUGGESTING; traffic citations ARE all misdemeanors. They are, by law, criminal events and are adjudicated as prescribed by state code. Try not paying a speeding ticket and see where you end up. What do you THINK a speeding ticket is?

tuttigym
link to original post

There are three types of violations of the law.
Infractions, Misdemeanors and Felonies.
In most cases, speeding is an Infraction. Infractions are minor violations and do not go on a person's criminal record. Other examples of Infractions could be drinking beer in a park, smoking at a bus stop. Conviction of an Infraction generally results in a fine and no criminal record. In some cases, speeding can rise to a Misdemeanor but that usually involves committing other crimes.

I will point out that the same courtroom in AC handled both traffic tickets and trespassing.

Same floor, same judge, same two district attorneys, same cashier to pay after judgement.

There are other floors in the courthouse for other issues. Traffic tickets and trespassing citations seemed equivalent in scale at least.

Quote: tuttigym

Infractions are rule breaking; citations (speeding tickets) are law breaking.

Someone here on this forum suggested that you are a lawyer. They obviously were wrong.

tuttigym
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Tuttigym, I don't know why you have to make every discussion into a to the death argument that you take so personally. Plus you end up insulting people and often deserve to be suspended for that.

In any case, a citation and an infraction are two different categories of things. An infraction and a misdemeanor (and a felony) are of the same category.

A citation simply refers to a notice given to an offender that a statutory violation or crime has occurred. A citation could be for an infraction or a misdemeanor. Yes, a citation refers to a "cite and release" situation where the offender is not booked into jail. Technically, I suppose someone could even be cited for a felony, if the jails were full or there were a policy in place not to haul people into custody for non-violent offenses, such as was happening in a lot of U.S. counties during the height of the Covid crisis.

Infraction, misdemeanor and felony refer to the severity degree of the offense.

I don't think it's worth engaging with you on this one, but suffice it to say that either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are not expressing yourself clearly.

Alright guys let's put some rest to whether I was charged with a crime.

In the state of NJ, defiant trespass (what I received the court summons for) is a petty disorderly offense. See below.

And a petty disorderly offense is not a crime in NJ.

Ergo, I was not charged with any crime.

They're talking about whether it rises to the level of requiring a jury trial, which is a constitutional law based question. As usual you are grasping at straws here in an effort to make your case.

Criminal trespass and disorderly conduct are both crimes.

Quote: MDawg

They're talking about whether it rises to the level of requiring a jury trial, which is a constitutional law based question. As usual you are grasping at straws here in an effort to make your case.

Criminal trespass and disorderly conduct are both crimes.
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The quote is unambiguous.

"... petty disorderly offenses are not considered crimes in NJ."

Who is grasping at straws?

EDIT: Part of the problem is NJ has its own terminology and set of laws that appears to be quite distinct from other states.

So let's move on. Either way, I was facing potential jail time (doubtful since I have a clean record and am middle-aged) and/or a fine.

You are so far askew from the reality of this particular subject that to even try to enlighten you would be a waste of my time. I would bet that most everyone else here is shaking his head at you and not wasting further breath on the matter. You were cited for an alleged crime, the crime being criminal trespass.

Since you are big on cites from the 'net 😅:
Criminal trespass involves being on someone else's property without permission. But the crime isn't as simple as just being where you're not supposed to. Someone caught trespassing on another person's property can face trouble, even possibly a civil lawsuit. But trespass is first and foremost a criminal offense.

You're just quoting from some lawyer's advertisement page...which again, he is referring to the "crime" definition in the context of a precise 6th Amendment issue, and to try to educate you on what all that means is not something I will spend time on, since you're not willing to listen.

Quote: MDawg

You are so far askew from the reality of this particular subject that to even try to enlighten you would be a waste of my time. I would bet that most everyone else here is shaking his head at you and not wasting further breath on the matter.

You're just quoting from some lawyer's advertisement page...which again, he is referring to the "crime" definition in the context of a precise 6th Amendment issue, and to try to educate you on what all that means is not something I will spend time on, since you're not willing to listen.
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I don't listen to lawyers from California who don't understand the law in NJ so I am not listening to you.

You aren't licenced to practice law in NJ, correct?

The common law definitions of what is a crime don't change. And again, that lawyer's advertisement page was just offering up "what is a crime" in a narrow 6th Amendment context...but then, you don't want to hear that. He is just offering, for the layman, a sort of categorical approach to what sorts of offenses don't warrant a jury trial in that state, I guarantee he did not intend for DarkOz to quote him categorically on what is and what is not a "crime."

Quote: billryan

There are three types of violations of the law.
Infractions, Misdemeanors and Felonies.

That is incorrect. There are only two violations of the law. Various state's code then break down those general categories into "class" violations. The accepted definition of misdemeanor: "ANY (emphasis) minor offense bringing a lesser punishment than a felony. The law does not recognize the term "infraction" as a legal term.

Quote: billryan

In most cases, speeding is an Infraction. Infractions are minor violations and do not go on a person's criminal record. Other examples of Infractions could be drinking beer in a park, smoking at a bus stop. Conviction of an Infraction generally results in a fine and no criminal record. In some cases, speeding can rise to a Misdemeanor but that usually involves committing other crimes.
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These statements are demonstrably wrong too. All convictions i.e., fines paid, even for illegal parking, are part of one's record with the state. For example, speeding convictions are available to insurance companies for underwriting purposes to determine insurance rates, and federal entities have complete access to state records to look at histories and personal traits.

tuttigym

I think we should leave this for Tuttigym and DarkOz to duke it out. On the subject matter being debated - Each! more misinformed than the other (but only if you line them up that way).

When you look up Infraction on Wex Law, the second example is speeding.

Examples of infractions are minor traffic offenses, jaywalking, drinking in public.

I can’t imagine a more silly hijacking of a thread than debating whether being falsely accused of a crime somehow makes you someone who has been arrested for a crime.

Quote: tuttigym

Someone here on this forum suggested that you are a lawyer. They obviously were wrong.
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Personal insult -- Three-day suspension. Mdawg has always represented himself as a lawyer and I have no reason to doubt him.

I'm almost out of popcorn. Let's get back to the original case.

Later I'll tell you how one of my markers ended up at the Vegas DA's office and I ALMOST had a warrant issued for my arrest.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: tuttigym

Someone here on this forum suggested that you are a lawyer. They obviously were wrong.
link to original post

Personal insult -- Three-day suspension. Mdawg has always represented himself as a lawyer and I have no reason to doubt him.
link to original post

beat me to it.

Quote: billryan

When you look up Infraction on Wex Law, the second example is speeding.

Examples of infractions are minor traffic offenses, jaywalking, drinking in public.
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I would have assumed those are "class C misdemeanors". Probably varies by state

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm almost out of popcorn. Let's get back to the original case.

Later I'll tell you how one of my markers ended up at the Vegas DA's office and I ALMOST had a warrant issued for my arrest.
link to original post

To my knowledge an unpaid marker is equivalent to writing a bad check. Essentially a marker is just a post-dated check (10 days at Aria)

In NY, a misdemeanor is punishable by jail time as a stand-alone crime. Infractions are punishable by fines.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm almost out of popcorn. Let's get back to the original case.

Later I'll tell you how one of my markers ended up at the Vegas DA's office and I ALMOST had a warrant issued for my arrest.
link to original post

To my knowledge an unpaid marker is equivalent to writing a bad check. Essentially a marker is just a post-dated check (10 days at Aria)
link to original post

You're correct about it being a check.
Only ten days at Aria?
Let's not derail this thread. I'll start another soon. My story isnt a movie... just a shortie for Readers Digest.

For an Infraction, the court will not appoint a lawyer if you can't afford one. For a Misdemeanor, they will.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm almost out of popcorn. Let's get back to the original case.

Later I'll tell you how one of my markers ended up at the Vegas DA's office and I ALMOST had a warrant issued for my arrest.
link to original post

I would definitely follow that thread and you can tell it at your own speed.

DarkOz. This thread is great. And you should take all the people posting in it as a compliment. In the same way MDawg does in his thread.

Quote: tuttigym

I am NOT SUGGESTING; traffic citations ARE all misdemeanors. They are, by law, criminal events

Sorry to "kick you when you're down" (suspended) tuttigym, but that is flat out incorrect: many citations are for civil traffic infractions.

But don't just take it from me, a lawyer; let's see what others say...

https://www.wisemantriallaw.com/blog/2012/august/the-difference-between-a-civil-traffic-ticket-ci/

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're correct about it being a check.
Only ten days at Aria?

Yes. You should already have enough money in your bank account to pay off any marker you sign so not sure why you'd need more than ten days. Very few people stay in Vegas anywhere close to ten days so their net gambling result is final well within that period.

To me a marker is like a credit card...it's just convenience not really credit.

Regarding speeding tickets. As I recall, getting one for 20 mph or more above the limit is a felony is some states.

Quote: Ace2

Regarding speeding tickets. As I recall, getting one for 20 mph or more above the limit is a felony is some states.
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Reckless driving standards vary. Some states get particular at 15mph over, some at 20 or 35 over.
Probably worth researching if you consider the posted signs as merest suggestions.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Ace2

Regarding speeding tickets. As I recall, getting one for 20 mph or more above the limit is a felony is some states.
link to original post

Reckless driving standards vary. Some states get particular at 15mph over, some at 20 or 35 over.
Probably worth researching if you consider the posted signs as merest suggestions.
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Virginia began defining 15 mph over the speed limit as reckless endangerment (felony) with a $2,500 fine as part of a legislative bill to fund the expansion of their metro (rail) system out to Dulles Airport. Interstate 81 is loaded with speed traps where the speed limit suddenly drops and the Highway Patrol stands by. As morally corrupt as back-rooming.

Darkoz, I don't think I have posted yet in this thread but I want you to know that I am enjoying your journey.

Quote: gordonm888

Virginia began defining 15 mph over the speed limit as reckless endangerment (felony) with a $2,500 fine as part of a legislative bill to fund the expansion of their metro (rail) system out to Dulles Airport. Interstate 81 is loaded with speed traps where the speed limit suddenly drops and the Highway Patrol stands by. As morally corrupt as back-rooming.

Reckless driving was/is automatic at 20 mph over the speed limit and is a criminal misdemeanor and has been for at least thirty years (got popped in the 90s, got popped again a decade ago). You really want to hire a lawyer if you get popped...and don't worry, your mailbox will fill up with letters from lawyers. If I hadn't been able to plead down I wouldn't be qualified for TSA Precheck since I would have a criminal record.

Around the time of Silver line funding bills, Virginia also increased the maximum possible speed limit to 70 mph. The problem was reckless wasn't defined just as 20 mph over the speed limit, it was also defined as 80 mph regardless of speed limit. So if you were going 15 above in a 65 mph zone or 10 above the in a 70 mph zone you could get popped for reckless. I believe that has since been adjusted because it is not abnormal for people to drive a "little" above the limit.

Virginia doesn't have Highway Patrol (no CHiPs here, or VHiPs), but State Police. Which is weird because it's a Commonwealth, shouldn't they be Commonwealth Police?

Sorry for participating in the sidetracking. I am enjoying the thread a look forward to the next installment.

Part Nine:

So after a twenty page dossier containing everything they have on me is submitted to the court and after the district attorney notified the Golden Nugget that this dossier doesn't prove their case because it doesn't have a document showing I was trespassed in January 2018 when I won my jackpot, the Golden Nugget suddenly has "discovered" the formal trespass and submitted that separately.

It's unsigned by me and they claim that means it's a verbal trespass.

My attorney has also noted the accompanying documents called an incident report written and signed by the actual security officer noting the particulars of the incident were also not included with the dossier. Now the DA has given the Golden Nugget until the next court date to "locate" the errant paperwork.

That pretty much brings us up to date from part eight.

It didn't take more than a week for the Golden Nugget to send over the errant incident report. It is testimony from a particular security officer that he responded to a call about myself, as a patron who had just won a jackpot and was flagged in the system. In his testimony, he contacts a number of people.

He contacted a number of security and slots supervisors.

He contacted Biometrica.

He contacted a specific DGE official who instructed him to pay me (he doesn't explain that I was the one who demanded GN contact the DGE but fine. He confirmed my earlier assumptions that I was paid the jackpot on order from the DGE ruling in favor.)

The incident report states he escorted me out the building after I was paid with instructions that if I were to return to the Golden Nugget I would be arrested for defiant trespassing.

That, of course contradicts my testimony and the observation of Golden Nugget surveillance which makes no note of me being escorted out or read the trespassing act.

On top of that, this incident report was filled with jarring inconsistencies. Items that, combined with the fact they didn't have this document nor the accompanying trespass documents lead me to believe this was a "manufactured" document.

Let's take a look.

First, look again at what surveillance noted. I posted this on part eight but that's now several pages back so here it is again. IN PARTICULAR NOTE THE TIME!!!

Surveillance notes the jackpot came to the GN attention at 15:48 and I was paid at 17:11 and left the building (with no mention of escort) at 17:13.



Okay, now look at the time(s) listed in the incident report. Two inconsistent pieces of data.

1). The document was last updated the day of the incident at 15.58. So it's LAST UPDATE was before I was paid at 17:11 and before I was escorted out?

2) the security officer makes another mistake about time literally in the first sentence. He says the time he was first called to approach me was at 20:18. Huh, he approached me over three hours after I was paid and left at 17:11?



Would a security guard who just spent ninety minutes dealing with a situation, dealing with Biometrica and the DGE then sit down and not realize what time of day it occurred?

Of course 2018 is the year this took place. So, did the security guard confuse what time of day it took place with the year???

(My theory:. The document was manufactured using notes and while transcribing the data, scanning the page for the time his eyes accidentally wrote down the year.)

There were other errors. At the bottom of the document he wrote in all the employees and myself who were involved. This includes a field for birthdays to be listed.

He wrote in my birthday correct and I crossed it out below.

But he left blank his own birthday (seems odd, the one birthday I would assume he knows isn't filled in.)

But glaringly he gets the birthday wrong of the slots supervisor listed at the top. I know it's the wrong birthday because it's 08/06/2017 so unless on 01/07/2018 a five month old infant was in charge of slots, I think it's safe to assume we see another error.



So, I meet with my attorney at his office and explain my belief this is a manufactured document and due to multiple errors probably not created contemporaneously.

BUT, he waves any consideration of that aside!

"That's a heavy accusation and this document doesn't prove anything more than some typos were made. That's certainly what they will claim.

"Trust me," he continues, "if you had some type of smoking gun evidence that the Golden Nugget had submitted to the court a falsified document to obtain a conviction, this case would be catapulted into the stratosphere. I would be connecting you with a tort attorney and the DGE and Casino Control Commission would be getting involved. But, this document, even with glaring errors doesn't prove that and we won't entertain such accusations in court."

I was totally disheartened!

"So, the Golden Nugget just sends over a guy to testify they trespassed me, waves this document with errors and, naturally, the judge will give the golden Nugget security officer the benefit of the doubt. That's where this case is at?" I enquired.

My attorney notifies me that it's not JUST anyone who can give testimony.

"Only this particular security officer can testify that he evicted you, that he spoke to you AND that you acknowledged you understood. No other person from the Golden Nugget can give testimony to that effect. That's just hearsay. Without this specific officer testifying against you, the Golden Nugget will lose their case"

We look up this particular officer. I don't remember if we found his photo at the Golden Nugget website or on LinkedIn but my attorney shows me who created and signed the incident report.

He wasn't someone I had any recall of seeing before.

My attorney gives me his absolute opinion that "...if he really didn't write this contemporaneously, he won't testify against you."

"Why not? He wrote the document."

My attorney just shook his head with such conviction it was almost as good as fact. "He won't testify. Not if the documents aren't contemporaneously created. He won't risk perjury under oath and losing his license to work security in the casino. He just won't!"

Nonetheless, I began research into what defense an appeal would engender. I was absolutely confident that under the law, no matter what, I wasn't guilty of trespassing EVEN IF the judge believed the security guard.

At any rate, the district attorney had notified my legal defender that this incident report was enough for her to proceed with the charges.

My attorney informed me we would be going in front of the judge at my next court appearance.

To be continued

Quote: darkoz

To be continued
link to original post

One wonders if typing those three little words brings you as much emotion as we get reading them...