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Wizard
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Wizard
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May 12th, 2021 at 6:17:20 AM permalink
Let's move onto the next movie, Thunderball. In that movie we find Bond playing Chemin de Fer at a casino in the Bahamas.


Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTMHrljIW0g

Here is what seems to be happening and my questions.

1. The villain is banking. He says "200," but I am not sure why. Is this a minimum bet he is looking to fade?
2. Bond walks up to the table and says "Banco." Does this mean he wishes to bank?
3. Bond bets what looks like 200 on the Player side. He is dealt 0-0 and draws an 8. We don't see the villain's cards, but I presume he stood on 6 or 7.
4. Bond takes the Banker position. Stakes are raised to 500 pounds. He wins 7 over 6.
5. Bond wins with a natural 9 over natural 8.
6. Bond leaves. One can hear the villain asking to Bank as Bond walks away.

Pretty similar scene to that in Dr. No. Connery seems to play it with more levity this time.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
odiousgambit
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May 12th, 2021 at 11:39:14 AM permalink
One area of 'gambling smarts' Bond has down cold is to make a few large bets and then quit immediately, rather a bunch of small bets, and let the house edge grind you down.

The same business of Bond not revealing naturals is going on here. But this time he pauses and forces the man to reveal his natural first. It's as if it's OK to pull stunts. If you don't reveal a natural immediately, and the other player decides to take a card, I have to think there would be quite the fuss. Mdawg thinks it's just to make a more dramatic gambling scene, as good an explanation as any . In the previous movie, the woman asks for cards but doesn't receive them against the naturals.

I can't answer the question about declaring "banco"
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MDawg
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May 12th, 2021 at 1:46:59 PM permalink
As you start reviewing more Bond movies, you'll find that sometimes Bond loses his first hand or two, then starts winning.

As we've already discussed, in Chemin de Fer, the person holding the shoe is wagering on the side of the Bank. The first card out of the shoe goes to Player, second to Bank, third again to Player, fourth to Bank.

As far as Bond's declaring "Banco," I assume it means that he wishes to start wagering on the side of the Bank, which he does on the second hand played and until he gets up. He is able to assume control of the shoe because Largo, who was holding the shoe when Bond arrived, lost a hand and thereby gave up the right to be Bank.

In Vegas, there used to be far more Grand Baccarat tables, and any player could assume control of the shoe and play on the side of the Bank (I've done it many times), but it was really just a ceremonial gesture, because the wagers were still paid out the same as any others, just that the player holding the shoe was doing it because he felt that the Bank was due to win. I suppose a player in Vegas could assume control of the shoe and even bet the Player's side, although that wouldn't make much sense, because the person holding the shoe opens the Bank's side cards.

Today, there is just one Vegas casino left that I am aware of that offers both Grand Baccarat and the old style mechanical shoes (with no camera in them to read the cards), and at that casino players are still allowed to assume control of the shoe. Most of these old style shoes are cream colored, so if you see a cream colored Baccarat shoe with no wires connected directly to it, you will know that it's an old style mechanical one with no card reader.

They haven't yet gotten to the point of camera readers inside Blackjack shoes, have they?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
Gialmere
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May 12th, 2021 at 11:18:55 PM permalink
Largo has the shoe and declares he'll back the Bank's hand with 200 pounds. (That's around $1900 U.S. in today's money.) We don't know the table minimums, but it's a swanky place with formal attire so the Banker min is probably at least 50 or (more likely) 100 pounds. Player mins are probably at least 5 or (more likely) 10 pounds. Largo puts his 200 in the Banker section of the layout.

Before normal Player punter wagers are placed...

Does anyone call Suivi? No. Presumably because nobody went Banco last hand.

Next, does anyone call Banco? Yes. Bond does meaning he'll equal the entire Bank wager. Everyone to Bond's right is out of the hand but those to the left may also call Banco and would supersede Bond in priority. (The punter to the Banker's immediate right is called Banco Prime.)

No one to the left, however, calls Banco so Bond puts 200 pounds on the Player section of the layout and goes mano-a-mano with Largo. Since no other punter has money involved, Bond is in complete control of the Player hand. (He could, say, stand on a 4 or hit on a 6.)

Largo loses and must pass the shoe. Normally this would go to the first player (in table order) who will match or exceed the previous Banker amount (200 pounds). If not, there's either an auction, or it's the first player willing to bank at least the table minimum.

But Largo asks to raise the stakes to 500. The punters between him and Bond say it's too rich for them (although they're under no obligation to agree to the raise). Bond, of course, agrees and takes the shoe. He is now banking at 500 pounds (which is risky considering he only has 700 pounds on him). Although Largo does not call Banco, his intentions are obvious to everyone so it's mano-a-mano again. (He does call Suivi after losing the second hand.)


My question is, what status does Bond even have at the table? When he arrives there no seats available. Standing punters do have rights and may wager on Player if the seated punters do not cover the full Bank amount. But can they call Banco and start playing over the seated players shoulders?
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MDawg
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May 12th, 2021 at 11:29:57 PM permalink
Yes, now that I watched it again more closely, Bond does say "Banco" before the hand is played out.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
odiousgambit
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May 13th, 2021 at 5:25:20 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Next, does anyone call Banco? Yes. Bond does meaning he'll equal the entire Bank wager. Everyone to Bond's right is out of the hand but those to the left may also call Banco and would supersede Bond in priority. (The punter to the Banker's immediate right is called Banco Prime.) 


Quote: MDawg

As far as Bond's declaring "Banco," I assume it means that he wishes to start wagering on the side of the Bank, which he does on the second hand played and until he gets up.

These above are two different evaluations?

Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccarat_(card_game)#Chemin_de_fer

In each round, the banker wagers the amount he wants to risk. The other players, in order, then declare whether they will "go bank", playing against the entire current bank with a matching wager. Only one player may "go bank". If no one "goes bank", players make their wagers in order

This seems to support Gialmere's version, or perhaps MDawg hasn't phrased it well

Wikipedia does not explain the use of the words 'banco' or 'suivi' ... somebody could add that, seems to me. Check this out, 
https://books.google.com/books?id=6Ph-q7UY4LIC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=suivi+banco&source=bl&ots=mGcpLa-bIn&sig=ACfU3U1_E4oRKsdUq2tcnJKTGvxB8SdlaA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiM946t0sbwAhXHi54KHUeVBXwQ6AEwDXoECBgQAw#v=onepage&q=suivi%20banco&f=false
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Wizard
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May 13th, 2021 at 5:29:13 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Does anyone call Suivi? No. Presumably because nobody went Banco last hand.



What does calling Suivi mean?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
odiousgambit
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May 13th, 2021 at 5:46:16 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What does calling Suivi mean?

see upthread

Quote: Gialmere

My question is, what status does Bond even have at the table? When he arrives there no seats available. Standing punters do have rights and may wager on Player if the seated punters do not cover the full Bank amount. But can they call Banco and start playing over the seated players shoulders?

where are you finding etiquette rules at all?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
unJon
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May 13th, 2021 at 6:33:59 AM permalink
If anyone has the novel Casino Royale, it describes the rules and etiquette and “banco” and “suivi” very well. The first movies follow the same way as described in that book.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
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May 15th, 2021 at 12:07:58 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

If anyone has the novel Casino Royale, it describes the rules and etiquette and “banco” and “suivi” very well. The first movies follow the same way as described in that book.



A document by the Massachusetts Gaming Commission gets in the fine points of Chemin de Fer pretty well. I am surprised they offer the game there, as opposed to conventional baccarat.

I don't think I could improve upon the wording in the document, so I'll copy and paste it here.

Quote: Massachusetts Gaming Commission -- Chemin de Fer -- Rule 6


6. Wagers made against banker

(a) After the Banker has placed a wager in support of the "Banker's Hand", the remaining
participants at the table shall be given the opportunity of wagering against all or a part of the
wager made by the Banker provided, however, that such wagers shall not exceed, either
individually or in the aggregate, the amount wagered by the Banker.
(b) Any participant who equaled and lost the immediately preceding wager of the Banker shall
have the first option of making a wager against the Banker in an amount equal to the amount
being wagered by the Banker. Said participant shall exercise this option by announcing
"Banco Suivi" or "Suivi" and by placing the requisite wager on the appropriate area of the
layout. A "standoff" shall not be counted for the purpose of determining the immediately
preceding wager under this subsection.
(c) If no qualified participant announces "Banco Suivi" or "Suivi", the next preference shall be
given to any participant placing a wager against the Banker equal in amount to that wagered
by the Banker. This option shall be exercised by a participant announcing "Banco Seul" or
"Banco" and by placing the requisite wager on the appropriate area of the layout. Whenever
more than one participant announces "Banco Seul" or "Banco", preference shall be given to
the participant making such announcement who is seated nearest to the Banker in a
counterclockwise direction around the table.
(d) If the options granted by (b) and (c) above are not exercised, each participant, beginning with
one seated to the immediate right of the Banker and moving counterclockwise around the
table, shall have the right to make a wager against a part of the wager made by the Banker.
Such wagers shall be accepted until the amount of the partial wagers, taken in the aggregate,
equals the amount of the wager made by the Banker or until, the dealer announces "No More
Bets."



We have discussed what is in it for the casino in this player vs. player (again, note the lower case) game. Rule 9 says the house may collect a 4% or 5% from winning Banker wagers.

Quote: Rule 9


(c) As its fee in housing the game, the gaming licensee shall extract a commission known as
"vigorish" from the amount won by the Banker on each round of play, in an amount equal to,
in the gaming licensee's discretion, either four or five percent of the amount won; provided,
however, that when collecting the vigorish, the gaming licensee may round off the amount of
a five percent vigorish to 25 cents or the next highest multiple of 25 cents, and the amount of
a four percent vigorish to 20 cents or the next highest multiple of 20 cents. Such vigorish
shall be collected immediately after each round won by the Banker.

It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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