Breaking down 007 casino scenes

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August 8th, 2021 at 5:27:53 PM permalink

You can add Goldeneye and Die Another Day. Although DAD has the exact same space plot as Diamonds Are Forever, so I'd only count DAD for half, at most! ;)

Also, I'm not sure if it qualifies, but at the end of The Spy Who Loved Me, the submarines launch ICBM's, which may travel into outer space.

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Gialmere

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August 8th, 2021 at 6:09:27 PM permalink

Quote: unJon
007) Stab in the dark: Dr. No

007) Incorrect. Dr. No both smokes and drinks during the dinner scene with Bond.

The question quotes a description of a henchman who is best remembered for the way Bond kills him.

Quote: Joeman
You can add Goldeneye and Die Another Day. Although DAD has the exact same space plot as Diamonds Are Forever, so I'd only count DAD for half, at most! ;)

Also, I'm not sure if it qualifies, but at the end of The Spy Who Loved Me, the submarines launch ICBM's, which may travel into outer space.

2 out of 3 Correct!

GoldenEye (GoldenEye satellite)
Die Another Day (Icarus satellite)

TSWLM is a good guess but (let's call it) suborbital.

The last space film is the toughest to remember. It has a very subtle, non weapon (but evil) use of technology.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Joeman

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August 9th, 2021 at 4:23:45 AM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
2 out of 3 Correct!

GoldenEye (GoldenEye satellite)
Die Another Day (Icarus satellite)

TSWLM is a good guess but (let's call it) suborbital.

The last space film is the toughest to remember. It has a very subtle, non weapon (but evil) use of technology.

In Tomorrow Never Dies, Carver tells Bond that his satellites are his "artillery." Bond also destroys one of the satellites in Tommorw's HQ.

"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

Wizard
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August 9th, 2021 at 5:32:49 AM permalink

Trivia time!

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Gialmere

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August 9th, 2021 at 7:16:43 AM permalink

Quote: Joeman
In Tomorrow Never Dies, Carver tells Bond that his satellites are his "artillery." Bond also destroys one of the satellites in Tommorw's HQ.

Correct!! A CMGN satellite is shown maneuvering into close proximity of a GPS satellite. It overrides the GPS signal and sends false data to a British warship causing the ship to enter Chinese waters.

Quote: Wizard
Trivia time!

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

Which M? Bernard Lee or Judi Dench? They've both had their first names revealed.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Wizard
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August 9th, 2021 at 7:21:03 AM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
Which M? Bernard Lee or Judi Dench? They've both had their first names revealed.

Bernard Lee. I didn't know that about Judi Dench's M.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

darkoz

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August 9th, 2021 at 8:41:27 AM permalink

Scene: rope bridge missing many steps over fog/mist shrouded chasm.

Gialmere goes up to the bent over Wizard.

(Wizard in creepy old man voice cackling)

Quote: Wizard

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

Which M? Bernard Lee or Judi Dench? They've both had their first names revealed.

Quote: Wizard
....I didn't know that about Judi Dench's M. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You would have been jettisoned into the void if this was a bridge to cross in Monty Python!

EDIT: Credit to Gialmere for the middle quote but my editing skills are lacking.

Also, hopefully Wizard forgives the slight alterations if his quote for effect!

Last edited by: darkoz on Aug 9, 2021

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Gandler

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August 9th, 2021 at 12:40:53 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
007) Incorrect. Dr. No both smokes and drinks during the dinner scene with Bond.

The question quotes a description of a henchman who is best remembered for the way Bond kills him.

Quote: Joeman
You can add Goldeneye and Die Another Day. Although DAD has the exact same space plot as Diamonds Are Forever, so I'd only count DAD for half, at most! ;)

Also, I'm not sure if it qualifies, but at the end of The Spy Who Loved Me, the submarines launch ICBM's, which may travel into outer space.

2 out of 3 Correct!

GoldenEye (GoldenEye satellite)
Die Another Day (Icarus satellite)

TSWLM is a good guess but (let's call it) suborbital.

The last space film is the toughest to remember. It has a very subtle, non weapon (but evil) use of technology.

I do not know the name, but it is Largo's henchman in Thunderball (movie), the one who gets killed by the spear gun. I can't think of the name.

In the book there is a similar quote referencing Largo himself , and even though he offers cigarettes as they board his ship they (Bond and Leiter) are alarmed that he nor his crew actually smoked themselves the whole time they were onboard and they were all men. Something like, "the real hardcore ones don't drink, smoke, or get involved with women" (paraphrasing). I think there are a couple of times (in the books) where a villain not smoking or drinking is a red flag, because it linked possible past or current involvement to groups like the SS (Nazi SS) or the KGB where smoking/drinking was either banned or looked down upon (in the books several of the villains had former Nazi connections, which was not really something that carried over to the movies).

Gialmere

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August 9th, 2021 at 5:17:08 PM permalink

Quote: Gandler
I do not know the name, but it is Largo's henchman in Thunderball (movie), the one who gets killed by the spear gun. I can't think of the name.

Correct!! Very good.

Some villain henchmen like Oddjob and Jaws are unforgettable in their films. Others, like Vargas, seem to be forgotten by their own films.

Quote: Gandler
I think there are a couple of times (in the books) where a villain not smoking or drinking is a red flag, because it linked possible past or current involvement to groups like the SS (Nazi SS) or the KGB where smoking/drinking was either banned or looked down upon (in the books several of the villains had former Nazi connections, which was not really something that carried over to the movies).

Yes. As I recall in the book "Moonraker" Bond gets suspicious of the German rocket techs because they all have Hitler mustaches. (I'd like to think I could have picked up on that clue myself.) One question I did have that did not make this batch was...

What psychopathic villain was born of Nazi medical experimentation and is former KGB?
--------------------------------------------------

Still in play...

001: How many actors have played the role of Ernst Stavro Blofeld? (one actor short)

006: At first, I'm sort of the main Bond girl. Then, I'm sort of the main Bond villain. Who am I?

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Joeman

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August 9th, 2021 at 5:31:42 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere

006: At first, I'm sort of the main Bond girl. Then, I'm sort of the main Bond villain. Who am I?

I can't for the life of me remember her name, but Sophie Marceau's character in The World is not Enough?

"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

Gialmere

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August 9th, 2021 at 6:50:13 PM permalink

Quote: Joeman
I can't for the life of me remember her name, but Sophie Marceau's character in The World is not Enough?

Correct!! Yes, Electra King in "The World Is Not Enough". (That's the only Brosnan Bond film that does NOT involve a satellite.) They juke that she's the main girl in the first half. In the second half, Renard (the assumed main villain) is essentially shown to be doing everything for, and taking orders from, his former abductee Elektra.

Elektra plays high card at Valentin's casino...

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Gandler

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August 9th, 2021 at 8:04:31 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
Correct!! Very good.

Some villain henchmen like Oddjob and Jaws are unforgettable in their films. Others, like Vargas, seem to be forgotten by their own films.

Yes. As I recall in the book "Moonraker" Bond gets suspicious of the German rocket techs because they all have Hitler mustaches. (I'd like to think I could have picked up on that clue myself.) One question I did have that did not make this batch was...

What psychopathic villain was born of Nazi medical experimentation and is former KGB?
--------------------------------------------------

Still in play...

001: How many actors have played the role of Ernst Stavro Blofeld? (one actor short)

006: At first, I'm sort of the main Bond girl. Then, I'm sort of the main Bond villain. Who am I?

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

The Blofeld question is tricky, because it would depend if your are counting only EON and only credited performances (for example in For Your Eyes Only there was somebody who was obviously suppose to be Blofeld, but because of legal reasons was not Blofeld).
If we are only counting EON:
From Russia With Love and Thunderball same actor (I think, there may be a difference voice actor used, but the body was the same).
You Only Live Twice different actor.
OHMSS different actor.
Diamonds are forever different actor. (last official Blofeld until Spectre due to legal reasons).
Spectre different actor.
No Time to DIe (based on trailers, same actor as Specter).

So 6 Actors if you are only counting EON films (and only credited appearances, there was a legal ban for several decades after Diamonds are Forever for using the Character Blofeld and Spectre in general). 7 Actors if you count the Mclory movie which had a Blofeld (and Spectre). I do not think there was a Blofeld in the 1960s Casino Royale, but I could be wrong (and that is one Bond movie I have zero desire to ever watch again).

The M question is a shot in the dark based off the books (I don't actually remember it in the movie). But, in Moonraker (book) he introduced his name in the club where they met Drax. Miles. So my guess would be the Moonraker movie, even though that movie was so different from the book (in fact it basically had nothing in common with the book except the title and the villian name.....) , this could likely be totally wrong.

Gialmere

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August 9th, 2021 at 9:22:12 PM permalink

Quote: Gandler

The Blofeld question is tricky, because it would depend if your are counting only EON and only credited performances (for example in For Your Eyes Only there was somebody who was obviously suppose to be Blofeld, but because of legal reasons was not Blofeld).
If we are only counting EON:
From Russia With Love and Thunderball same actor (I think, there may be a difference voice actor used, but the body was the same).
You Only Live Twice different actor.
OHMSS different actor.
Diamonds are forever different actor. (last official Blofeld until Spectre due to legal reasons).
Spectre different actor.
No Time to DIe (based on trailers, same actor as Specter).

So 6 Actors if you are only counting EON films (and only credited appearances, there was a legal ban for several decades after Diamonds are Forever for using the Character Blofeld and Spectre in general). 7 Actors if you count the Mclory movie which had a Blofeld (and Spectre). I do not think there was a Blofeld in the 1960s Casino Royale, but I could be wrong (and that is one Bond movie I have zero desire to ever watch again).

The M question is a shot in the dark based off the books (I don't actually remember it in the movie). But, in Moonraker (book) he introduced his name in the club where they met Drax. Miles. So my guess would be the Moonraker movie, even though that movie was so different from the book (in fact it basically had nothing in common with the book except the title and the villian name.....) , this could likely be totally wrong.

Correct!! Yes, Christoph Waltz in "Spectre" (and "No Time to Die") was the missing Blofeld.

The M question is the Wizard's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, well, well, look what the cat dragged in. I'm delighted you finished Mr. Bond fans. I so dreaded going over these tedious answers alone...

1) From Russia With Love, Thunderball: Anthony Dawson (who also played Professor Dent in Dr. No).
2) You Only Live Twice: Donald Pleasence
3) On Her Majesties Secret Service: Telly Savalas
4) Diamonds Are Forever: Charles Gray
5) For Your Eyes Only: John Hollis
6) Never Say Never Again: Max Von Sydow
7) Spectre, No Time to Die: Christoph Waltz

1) Dr. No (Project Mercury)
2) You Only Live Twice (Disappearance of American and Russian astronauts)
3) Diamonds Are Forever (Diamond satellite)
4) Moonraker (Moonraker shuttles, Drax's space station)
5) GoldenEye (GoldenEye satellite)
6) Tomorrow Never Dies (CMGN satellite
7) Die Another Day (Icarus satellite)

Oddjob

Gobinda

Silva

Electra King

Vargas

Perhaps we'll meet again Mr. Bond fans. We villains have a way of sticking around...

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Joeman

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August 10th, 2021 at 5:31:40 AM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
Oddjob

You have made me remember, years ago, there was a local Japanese Steakhouse, and the Maître D' (who would wear a black suit) was the spitting image of OddJob. Except he had a much more pleasant demeanor. That and he could talk, which was a plus! ;)

I never did ask him about the resemblance, though. I figured that comparing someone to a Bond villain could be taken as an insult.

ETA: I enjoyed the Bond trivia, G! Thanks!

"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

davethebuilder

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August 12th, 2021 at 3:07:01 AM permalink

Oddjob was played by Harold Sakata - a weightlifter who won a Silver Medal for the United States at the 1948 Olympic Games. He died in 1982.

My favourite Bond actors were Sean Connery then Roger Moore and I still enjoy watching reruns today so I would like to suggest that this website allow full screen viewing of YouTube clips to enhance the experience for the viewer...

Casino Enemy No.1

darkoz

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August 12th, 2021 at 6:27:14 AM permalink

I love Connery and Moore as Bond but the best, most realistic portrayal was Lazenby up until Daniel Craig took over

Funny thing is lots argue about their favorite Bond. But most everyone I met agrees worst Bond was Dalton!

I would include David Niven as worst Bond and Woody Allen as well ;)

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Gandler

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August 12th, 2021 at 7:43:10 AM permalink

Quote: darkoz
I love Connery and Moore as Bond but the best, most realistic portrayal was Lazenby up until Daniel Craig took over

Funny thing is lots argue about their favorite Bond. But most everyone I met agrees worst Bond was Dalton!

I would include David Niven as worst Bond and Woody Allen as well ;)

I actually think Dalton is my favorite. (Craig may be a close second).

I have always felt he was closest to the original books (even though his movies are not directly based on a book), as far as character. I never liked his movies as a kid, but re-watching them older (especially after reading the books), they are really good.

I feel like his movies are underrated (and its a shame his third one got delayed into cancellation, because it sounded interesting).

I believe Dalton was offered the role for OHMSS, but felt he was too young/inexperienced and declined, but if he accepted, he quite possibly would have been the longest running Bond (1969-1989, or longer because maybe his final movie would not have been delayed until he lost interest if he was so steady). Of course, this could be a blessing or curse, because he likely would have turned into a very different Bond if he started so young and stayed in the role so long.

Gialmere

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August 14th, 2021 at 2:02:40 PM permalink

You think you can answer these questions about Bond girls?

But of course, I forgot your egos, Mr. Bond fans. James Bond, who only has to make love to a women and she starts to hear heavenly choirs singing. She repents, then immediately returns to the side of right and virtue...but not this one!
-------------------------------------------------

EON Films Only

001) Not counting Moneypenny, who was the first actress to appear as a Bond girl in two films?

002) The Bond girl Chew Mee appears in which movie?

003) In which film does Bond sleep with the most women?

004) Halle Berry was the first black actress to play the main Bond girl, but in which film did the very first black Bond girl appear?

005) What former Miss Malaysia received international fame as a Bond girl?

006) In which film did Jaclyn Smith have to turn down the main Bond girl role because she had committed to the Charlie's Angels TV show?

007) Not counting "Skyfall", in which film does Bond NOT sleep with the main Bond girl?
-----------------------------------------------

Let's see how you do. Vanity, Mr. Bond fans is something you know so much about.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

darkoz

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August 14th, 2021 at 2:32:33 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere

You think you can answer these questions about Bond girls?

But of course, I forgot your egos, Mr. Bond fans. James Bond, who only has to make love to a women and she starts to hear heavenly choirs singing. She repents, then immediately returns to the side of right and virtue...but not this one!
-------------------------------------------------

EON Films Only

001) Not counting Moneypenny, who was the first actress to appear as a Bond girl in two films?

002) The Bond girl Chew Mee appears in which movie?

003) In which film does Bond sleep with the most women?

004) Halle Berry was the first black actress to play the main Bond girl, but in which film did the very first black Bond girl appear?

005) What former Miss Malaysia received international fame as a Bond girl?

006) In which film did Jaclyn Smith have to turn down the main Bond girl role because she had committed to the Charlie's Angels TV show?

007) Not counting "Skyfall", in which film does Bond NOT sleep with the main Bond girl?
-----------------------------------------------

Let's see how you do. Vanity, Mr. Bond fans is something you know so much about.

1) EON films only, Maud Adams, Man with the Golden Gun and Octopussy

(Ursula Andress for Dr. No from EON and Casino Royale (1967) non-EON.)

2) Man with the Golden Gun

3) I am going with On Her Majesty secret service

4) Diamonds are Forever had a black female villain I believe but if that doesn't count as a Bond girl, Live and Let Die.

EDIT: On Her Majesty Secret Service there was a black girl in the Blofeld group being groomed. Her role was small though.

6) I am guessing Moonraker although Spy Who Loved me would be my second guess

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Gialmere

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August 14th, 2021 at 3:00:26 PM permalink

Quote: darkoz

1) EON films only, Maud Adams, Man with the Golden Gun and Octopussy

(Ursula Andress for Dr. No from EON and Casino Royale (1967) non-EON.)

2) Man with the Golden Gun

3) I am going with On Her Majesty secret service

4) Diamonds are Forever had a black female villain I believe but if that doesn't count as a Bond girl, Live and Let Die.

EDIT: On Her Majesty Secret Service there was a black girl in the Blofeld group being groomed. Her role was small though.

6) I am guessing Moonraker although Spy Who Loved me would be my second guess

Good guess but incorrect.

Correct!!

That was my guess but we're both wrong. Bond only sleeps with 3 girls in OHMSS.

Correct!! Even bad girls (like Rosie in LALD) are Bond girls. I was going for Thumper in DAF but you do make a good point about OHMSS.

Correct!! Jaclyn Smith was offered the role of Dr. Holly Goodhead in Moonraker.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

darkoz

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August 14th, 2021 at 3:10:59 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
Good guess but incorrect.

Correct!!

That was my guess but we're both wrong. Bond only sleeps with 3 girls in OHMSS.

Correct!! Even bad girls (like Rosie in LALD) are Bond girls. I was going for Thumper in DAF but you do make a good point about OHMSS.

Correct!! Jaclyn Smith was offered the role of Dr. Holly Goodhead in Moonraker.

1) The very first Bond girl from Dr. No. After Bond introduces himself as "Bond, James Bond" at the Baccarat table, she returns for a cameo in From Russia With Love. It's like a really quick appearance.

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Gialmere

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August 14th, 2021 at 3:25:11 PM permalink

Quote: darkoz

1) The very first Bond girl from Dr. No. After Bond introduces himself as "Bond, James Bond" at the Baccarat table, she returns for a cameo in From Russia With Love. It's like a really quick appearance.

Correct!! Eunice Gayson played Miss? "Trench ... Sylvia Trench" in the first 2 Bond films. The original idea was Sylvia would be Bond's London girlfriend for several films and then become the main Bond girl in a future film. The idea was obviously abandoned.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

darkoz

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August 14th, 2021 at 5:47:13 PM permalink

This one might be a half trick question.

Name a movie that might take place in the James Bond universe due to shared characterizations by the same actors

To be clear this movie has not one but two actors playing extremely similar roles to what they play in their corresponding James Bond appearance although they are not identified officially as the same characters.

Name the movie

Name the two characters and their similar roles

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Gialmere

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August 14th, 2021 at 6:20:18 PM permalink

I can't remember the name, something "brother". It starred Sean Connery's actual brother as a secret agent. Bernard Lee played an M type character and Lois Maxwell played a Moneypenny type of character (but more badass). I remember the guy who played Largo in Thunderball was a baddie in it.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

darkoz

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August 14th, 2021 at 6:42:35 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
I can't remember the name, something "brother". It starred Sean Connery's actual brother as a secret agent. Bernard Lee played an M type character and Lois Maxwell played a Moneypenny type of character (but more badass). I remember the guy who played Largo in Thunderball was a baddie in it.

I will count that as a alternate answer but that one was clearly produced as a James Bond offshoot.

It's called "O.K. Connery" (horrible title) in some markets. Others it's called Operation Kid Brother" (hence the O K in the other title).

That one also has a lot more than two characters from the Bond films.

The one I am referring to was clearly independent of the Bond films. It just has two actors playing roles similar to their Bond appearances

Hint: each actor portrayed their Bond characters in two separate Bond films only.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

Joeman

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August 15th, 2021 at 6:18:18 AM permalink

I don't recall Bond sleeping with Natalia in GoldenEye, but not for lack of trying. He was "blocked" by the US Marines!

"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

Gialmere

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August 15th, 2021 at 12:36:44 PM permalink

Quote: Joeman
I don't recall Bond sleeping with Natalia in GoldenEye, but not for lack of trying. He was "blocked" by the US Marines!

Incorrect.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Gialmere

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August 15th, 2021 at 12:54:05 PM permalink

Still in play...

003) In which film does Bond sleep with the most women?

005) What former Miss Malaysia received international fame as a Bond girl?

007) Not counting "Skyfall", in which film does Bond NOT sleep with the main Bond girl?
-----------------------------------------------

Also in play...

Quote: Wizard
Trivia time!

According to the Eon Bond movies, what was M's first name and which movie was it revealed in?

Quote: darkoz
This one might be a half trick question.

Name a movie that might take place in the James Bond universe due to shared characterizations by the same actors

To be clear this movie has not one but two actors playing extremely similar roles to what they play in their corresponding James Bond appearance although they are not identified officially as the same characters.

Name the movie

Name the two characters and their similar roles

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Gialmere

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August 15th, 2021 at 8:29:49 PM permalink

Only 4 out of 7 Mr. Bond fans? Just as I thought. You're a sexist, misogynist dinosaur. A relic of the Cold War, whose boyish charms are wasted on me. Also you made a shocking mess out of my hair you sadistic brute. Will you zip me up, please?

These are the answers that SPECTRE desires...
-------------------------------------------

Eunice Gayson played Miss? "Trench ... Sylvia Trench" in the first 2 Bond films.

Chew Mee is, presumably, Hai Fat's misstress.

Usually Bond sleeps with either two or three women per film. Going by innuendo, however, he sleeps with four women in FRWL: Sylvia Trench, Vida & Zora (the fighting girls at the gypsy camp) and Tatiana Romanova.

Thumper from DAF.

Michelle Yeoh from TND was Miss Malaysia 1983 and competed for Miss World the same year.

Jaclyn Smith was offered the role of Dr. Holly Goodhead in Moonraker.

Bond never sleeps with main Bond girl Camille in QOS. He only has a one-nighter with Strawberry Fields. Note that there is no main Bond girl in Skyfall (unless you count M as the main Bond girl).

-------------------------------------------

Do you mind if I sit the next trivia game out? I'm just dead.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

Gialmere

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August 28th, 2021 at 2:47:43 PM permalink

Getting back to the point of this thread, I'd like to spotlight the casino scene in "Octopussy". Here we find James Bond taking on Kamal Khan at backgammon...

This is probably my favorite 007 casino scene. It plays like a mini movie. In a swanky casino, a tuxedo-ed Bond outwits the cheating main villain while a henchman glares from the sideline. There's also a gorgeous woman that Bond finds time to flirt with in the scene's 5 minutes. Both Roger Moore and Louis Jourdan are in top form here. In fact, my biggest complaint would be that the scene should be extended to let Bond and Khan interact longer. It certainly doesn't overstay its welcome. What's not to like?

Well, nothing really if you just go along with the dialog. If you put it under a magnifying glass, however, it's actually the worst Bond casino scene in terms of game play. It mutilates backgammon. I was going to list all the issues but I came across this article which points out all the flaws including breaches of etiquette that I hadn't even considered. (It's a quick read but too long to quote here.) Instead I'll just mention the two biggest errors plus a few observations the article doesn't cover.

Game Errors
The biggest error is in the first game when Khan is playing against Major Clive. Khan has a blot on the Major's 1-point which the Major hits with one checker and then covers the point with another to close out his home-board. Kahn responds by offering a double to which the Major agrees. Kahn switches dice (alerting Bond to his cheating) and rolls double-sixes. But so what? He's on the bar and blocked out. With no legal move he shouldn't even be rolling his dice. And yet (with a chance to gammon or even backgammon Khan), instead of offering a double, the Major concedes the game. Sadruddin was right about the Major not being novice: He's a complete idiot.

The second big error is in the second game. The Major is winning and Kahn offers a double. The Major refuses due to Khan's luck. Bond accepts the double and takes over the Major's position. Kahn (surprise!) rolls double-sixes. Bond responds by offering a double. Kahn agrees and points out that Bond can only win with a double-six. The dialog implies that Bond MUST get a 6-6 on his next roll or else he loses. A glance at the board, however, shows that's not the situation at all.

Bond has two checkers on his 6-point and one each on his 3 and 2-points respectively. Yes, a 6-6 will immediately win, but there are other good rolls that will help him. A 4-4, for example, would leave him with two checkers on his 2-point. A 6-3 would leave him with checkers on his 6 and 2-points with decent chances of winning.

And Khan? He has one checker on his own 4-point and one on his 3-point. That means he has 17 ways to immediately win on his turn, but it also means there are 19 ways he doesn't immediately win. In fact, he could enter backgammon hell with a roll of 1-2 (they aren't playing the acey deucey variant) since it might then require another two turns to bear off.

Other Errors
One problem the article doesn't discuss is how nobody seems to be suspicious of Khan and his dice. Always a double-six when he needs it eh? Do we really need James Bond to figure this out? In my mind's eye, I see the casino staff yucking it up in the break room as they discuss Kamal Khan fleecing the tourists with his [exaggerated air quotes] "MAGIC" [end exaggerated air quotes] dice. It's all in the wrist dontcha know.

Another issue is why backgammon? It appears to be the only game the casino offers. Have you ever seen backgammon played in a casino? I'm sure it has been somewhere, but why India? The country has no connection to the game at all as opposed to games like, say, Parcheesi or (believe it or not) hopscotch. Even the United States has a better claim on it being the country that introduced the doubling cube thus transforming backgammon into an expected value-driven game.

The answer is there was a backgammon craze going on from the late 60s through the early 80s, and Roger Moore was a backgammon fanatic. He would play games during breaks in filming often against producer "Cubby" Broccoli for high stakes.

I wonder who the better player was?

Originally they were going to put a backgammon scene in "The Spy Who Loved Me" but, as these things go, it eventually eneded up in "Octopussy".
--------------------------------------------------

I'm extending Mr. Bond fans every courtesy while taking this quiz but doubling the guards to prevent searching.
-------------------------------------

001) Who does Bond disguise himself as to infiltrate a (presumably) Cuban military airbase?

002) The auction scene takes place at what famous auction house?

003) Who is Penelope Smallbone?

004) What is the name of Kamal Khan's mansion?

005) How is Vijay killed?

006) Fill in the blanks: "Englishman. Likes eggs, preferably ______, and dice, preferably ______."

007) Who has trouble "keeping it up"?

James Bond and Kamal Khan play a game of backgammon using fair dice. They end up in the same position they do in the film. Bond has two checkers on his 6-point and one each on his 3 and 2-points. Khan has one checker on his 4-point and one checker on his 3-point. It's Bond's turn.

What is the probability that Bond will win the game?
-------------------------------------

I should state that I do not know the answer to this. I'm just curious and don't really expect a response. I thought it would be easy, but there's quite a few scenarios to be considered (although somewhat negated by Khan's simple position). Obviously you'll need to know the rules of backgammon.

Last edited by: Gialmere on Aug 29, 2021

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August 28th, 2021 at 7:05:08 PM permalink

Wow, I never caught any of those mistakes!

Sotheby's?

Vijay is killed by an assassin (hired by Kahn) with that saw blade yo-yo thingie. Was that supposed to be a real weapon?

"Englishman. Likes eggs, preferably Faberge, and dice, preferably loaded."

Q -- IIRC, his climbing rope had some issues during a test in his lab.

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August 29th, 2021 at 12:49:06 PM permalink

Quote: Joeman
Wow, I never caught any of those mistakes!

Sotheby's?

Vijay is killed by an assassin (hired by Kahn) with that saw blade yo-yo thingie. Was that supposed to be a real weapon?

"Englishman. Likes eggs, preferably Faberge, and dice, preferably loaded."

Q -- IIRC, his climbing rope had some issues during a test in his lab.

Correct!!

This scene is inspired by the Bond short story "The Property of a Lady" which they name drop into it. Interiors were filmed at Pinewood studios while exteriors (when leaving the auction) are at the actual Sothaby's building. One strange thing about the scene is how the lady sitting behind Magda's right shoulder is dressed. It's like they needed a few more extras to fill in the crowd and so grabbed her from the western being shot next door.

Correct!!

Yes, the infamous buzz-saw yo-yo. This unique prop functioned like an actual yo-yo although it had a hidden motor to spin the blades fast enough to cut things. Surprisingly, the actor using it was technically never hurt by the device. He did, however, fall from the balcony in the above scene and broke his arm.

Unfortunately, the Vijay death scene is not on youtube.

Correct!!

This scene hearkens back to Blofeld and his fighting fish in "From Russia with Love". Obviously this is intentional to make you think Octopussy is the main villain.

Correct!!

This is a fun Q scene although Bond is in full blown juvenile mode. Compare it to the Q scene in "Casino Royale" 1967 and note the similar gadgets and jokes...

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August 31st, 2021 at 2:23:18 PM permalink

Outstanding post on the backgammon scene in Octopussy, G! I will get to that movie eventually and then I'll give a proper reply. Although your was one of those posts that was so good that it's hard to find anything to challenge about it. As to the math question, that would be rather tedious and time-consuming to solve. Bond could have won with some other high doubles, Kahn does not win the next roll, and Bond wins on his next roll. So I would file it under character error that Bond needed a double-six to win.

Hopefully we can table Octopussy for now. I'd like to discuss the casino scene in On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK28sHhh9hI.

At the 0:55 point, we start to see Bond play. He is banking one-on-one against a player to high right. The player acting on the Player Hand asks to draw a card. Bond reveals his own two-card four-point hand and delivers a 9 to the Player Hand. Bond�s opponent then flips over two face cards, for a three-card total of nine points. Bond stands pat and loses. Why didn�t Bond draw? It�s because in the form of chemin de fer played played at the time Bond was forced to stand on a total of four against a 9. This is also the correct play.

Per the rules of chemin de fer, Bond had to give up his turn as the banker, because he lost the previous hand. What seems to be happening next is the new banker wagers more than anyone is comfortable with. Then a woman in a white dress, Tracy, walks up to the table and says �banco.� This means she wishes to bet the limit established by the banker by herself and play alone. At the 1:42 point, she says �carte,� indicating she wants to draw. The banker reveals his own two-card total of 0 and deals a 5 to Tracy. Then the banker draws a third card. The dealer (not to be confused with the banker) announces �neuf,� which means nine in French. It�s not shown, but the banker drew a 9 for a total of nine points. Tracy reveals her two-card total of five. The third five gives her a 0-point hand, losing to the banker.

Then what happens is Tracy asks for credit to pay the bet she just lost. The man she asks says �C�est impossible.� It would seem Tracy can�t honor the losing bet. Then Bond comes to the rescue and pays the losing wager for her. I am not sure why the casino let her play without bringing money to the table or approving credit, but this is necessary to advance the story, so I�ll let it go and file it under character error.

In terms of the card play, I can't find a single error. This is the first and only time in any Bond movie is there a significant hand of chemin de fer/baccarat where Bond is not involved in the hand. The fact that Bond finally loses a hand I think helps to set up Lazenby as a different kind of Bond than Connery.

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September 1st, 2021 at 3:22:30 AM permalink

very good analysis, but the kind of post where you might find you have nothing to add

odd that this time there is no error in playing the game or in editing and showing the wrong hand, or similar, but instead an error in showing a player being allowed to play with no money or credit. Everyone here knows that never happens.

I'd say it's hard to conclude this would be a favorite Bond casino scene

I agree that to finally show Bond losing is an intentional departure from earlier Bond, especially since he doesn't later win dramatically

I was puzzled by the expression "character error" , but it [or "character mistake"] seems to be a used phrase for similar situations with movie critics, judging by the below site. Interesting that there is a site dedicated to movie mistakes!

https://www.moviemistakes.com/best/character

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: �Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!� She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

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September 1st, 2021 at 6:17:53 AM permalink

Quote: odiousgambit
I was puzzled by the expression "character error" , but it [or "character mistake"] seems to be a used phrase for similar situations with movie critics, judging by the below site. Interesting that there is a site dedicated to movie mistakes!

I define a character error as something incorrect a character says. A good example is in Jurrasic Park a character says, "When they opened Disneyland in 1956, nothing worked." Disneyland opened in 1955. One can't necessarily say it was a mistake in the movie as perhaps the character was just wrong.

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September 1st, 2021 at 6:49:01 AM permalink

In response to why the casino may have allowed her to play without financial backing, just in terms of character, she is the daughter of (in terms of story) one of the most renowned mafia men in the country.

Clearly her father had the money to cover such a wager and from the way he is portrayed would have come to her rescue. Her act was therefore less about causing trouble for herself than for her father at least in a scandalous manner.

At any rate, I can see her at a high end casino as in the scene being recognized and extending her a credit. Perhaps out of fear and respect for who her father was.

None of that is mentioned so it's just my supposition.

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September 1st, 2021 at 8:51:49 AM permalink

Quote: darkoz
In response to why the casino may have allowed her to play without financial backing, just in terms of character, she is the daughter of (in terms of story) one of the most renowned mafia men in the country.

Good explanation.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

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September 1st, 2021 at 9:58:32 AM permalink

I've always felt that Lazenby was one of the best Bonds - charming, womanizing, devilish - loved the scene where he kills time looking at Playboy while waiting for his device to crack the safe combination, and then walks out with the centerfold portion. Classic.

Lazenby also exhibited a wider depth of character than some other Bonds.

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September 1st, 2021 at 10:46:37 AM permalink

Quote: MDawg
I've always felt that Lazenby was one of the best Bonds - charming, womanizing, devilish - loved the scene where he kills time looking at Playboy while waiting for his device to crack the safe combination, and then walks out with the centerfold portion. Classic.

Lazenby also exhibited a wider depth of character than some other Bonds.

See, MDawg, we can totally agree on some things.

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September 1st, 2021 at 5:42:42 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
Then a woman in a white dress, Tracy, walks up to the table and says �banco.� This means she wishes to bet the limit established by the banker by herself and play alone. At the 1:42 point, she says �carte,� indicating she wants to draw. The banker reveals his own two-card total of 0 and deals a 5 to Tracy. Then the banker draws a third card. The dealer (not to be confused with the banker) announces �neuf,� which means nine in French. It�s not shown, but the banker drew a 9 for a total of nine points. Tracy reveals her two-card total of five. The third five gives her a 0-point hand, losing to the banker.

This drawing on 5 by Tracy is one of the key points of this sequence. If she had stood pat, the Banker would have received the 5 she received, making it a tie. Instead, she decided not to play it safe, draw, and reduced herself to 0, leaving the next card for the Banker, a 9, which won the hand for him.

Notice however that Tracy didn't know that the Banker was holding a starting hand of 0. If she had known that, and then knowing that only a draw of 6,7,8,9 (four different cards) would beat her versus 1,2,3,4,5,10 or face card (seven cards) that would lead to her winning or tying, then her decision to hit a 5 would really have been "un" safe. But that's the way Chemin de Fer is played, the opposing side is obliged to open (reveal) its hand only after a decision has been made whether to draw, which is optional only on 5 anyway, otherwise pursuant to Baccarat's complex traditional mandatory (or not) drawing rules. Once that drawing decision has been made the other side reveals its hand and unless it is a natural, a draw card is dealt.

In this instance, it was only after the Banker revealed that he had a 0 (not a natural 8 or 9), that Tracy was dealt a third card to her initial 5 hand. But her decision whether to draw or not on 5 had to be made before she saw the opposing side's cards.

Notice also that the cards used in Europe for Chemin de Fer / Baccarat have no numbers or letters on them, only the "dots" or images (jack, queen, king) that indicate what the card is. In the United States most Baccarat players at Midi or Grand Baccarat tables will cover up the numbers with their thumbs and then "roll" the cards up along the long edge to determine what the hand is via the dots (known as "sides"), with a two sided card being a 4 or 5, three sided 6, 7, 8, four sided 9 or 10, and "no sides" a 1, 2, 3.

Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 1, 2021

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September 1st, 2021 at 6:20:11 PM permalink

I should have commented on the exchange afterward where Bond says, "Next time play it safe and stand on five." This is bad advice. As my page on chemin de fer shows, the odds favor hitting five on the Player Hand. This is based on the limited free will version of baccarat, where there are only three situation where there is free will.

In an older version, with full free will, assuming neither side has a natural, then the decision to hit or stand on five should be randomized.

In Goldeneye, they seem to be playing the full free will variant.

I wish I had a time machine to go back to the 1960's so see how they actually played this game. Not many people still alive who would have been of gambling age and the time and actually played it.

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September 1st, 2021 at 7:09:50 PM permalink

I haven't played enough Baccarat in Europe to remember the rules, but you're saying that in Chemin de Fer, although the player has the option to draw or not draw against an initial 5, he should always draw? In that case, the Player's Chemin de Fer options become the same as in American Baccarat - fixed (no options).

And so, based on your chart for limited free will Chemin de Fer

if Bank has a starting total 5, and Player draws a 4, Bank may then decide whether to stand or draw?

And if Bank has a starting total 3, and Player draws a 9, Bank may then decide whether to stand or draw?

Obviously in both of those instances, Bank would draw only if its total with two cards was not already beating or tying Player after Player drew its third card.

What is the full free will version? "Full" implies that either side may choose to draw or stand and there are no fixed drawing rules??

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September 1st, 2021 at 7:31:54 PM permalink

Quote: MDawg
if Bank has a starting total 5, and Player draws a 4, Bank may then decide whether to stand or draw?

Yes

Quote:
And if Bank has a starting total 3, and Player draws a 9, Bank may then decide whether to stand or draw?

Yes.

Quote:
Obviously in both of those instances, Bank would draw only if its total with two cards was not already beating or tying Player after Player drew its third card.

The Banker only has knowledge of the player's third card only.

Quote:
What is the full free will version? "Full" implies that either side may choose to draw or stand and there are no fixed drawing rules??

The full free version allows both sides to draw or stand on anything, as long as neither side has a natural 8 or 9. There is much evidence to suggest this is the version Bond plays.

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September 1st, 2021 at 7:47:15 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard

The Banker only has knowledge of the player's third card only.

Are you sure? because I thought both sides must show both of their first two cards before a third card is even offered to either side. (But not before Player makes its decision whether to draw or not, on an initial 5.) That's the way I remember the game, and the way it seems to be anyway, on James Bond too.

The Player makes a decision about whether to draw or not on 5 before viewing the Banker's cards. But the Player can't even get a third card until after the Bank reveals its hand entirely, so as to make sure that Banker doesn't already hold a natural.

But you're saying then that Player then receives a third card, and doesn't have to reveal its entire initial hand to Banker? What if the Player is screwing up and holding a natural and drawing to it, or drawing to a 7?

I mean of course who knows if this is "authentic" Chemin de Fer, but here
https://www.onlinegambling.com/casino/baccarat/chemin-de-fer/
the rules imply that initial hands are revealed after Player draws.

-Two cards are dealt face-down to the player with the biggest wager, and two to the banker, respectively.

-If the banker or player has a hand that equals 8 or 9 (the 'natural' numbers), the game ends and whoever has that hand wins.

-If neither one has that hand, the player can decide whether to take a third card (if their hand is worth 5). Initial hands are then revealed.

-Once the banker has decided, as appropriate, whether to take a third card or not, hands are compared, and the winnings of the round are distributed.

Here too
https://www.baccarat.net/chemin-de-fer/
it states "Additional cards are always drawn face-up, since the initial hands have already been revealed" - which again implies that all cards are face up after the Player has drawn or not drawn.

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September 1st, 2021 at 8:13:09 PM permalink

Quote: MDawg
Are you sure? because I thought both sides must show both of their first two cards before a third card is even offered to either side. (But not before Player makes its decision whether to draw or not, on an initial 5.) That's the way I remember the game, and the way it seems to be anyway, on James Bond too.

The initial cards are dealt face down. After the Player Hand draws a third card, the Banker Hand will reveal his two cards and deal the Player Hand third card face up. The other two Player cards are still face down. Otherwise, the Banker Hand decision would be obvious.

Quote:
The Player makes a decision about whether to draw or not on 5 before viewing the Banker's cards. But the Player can't even get a third card until after the Bank reveals its hand entirely, so as to make sure that Banker doesn't already hold a natural.

No! If the Player Hand draws a third card, then, as I just wrote, the Banker Hand will reveal it's total. If it is a total of 8 or 9, a third Player Hand card will not be dealt, because it can't beat the Banker Hand natural.

Quote:
But you're saying then that Player then receives a third card, and doesn't have to reveal its entire initial hand to Banker?

Yes.

Quote:
What if the Player is screwing up and holding a natural and drawing to it, or drawing to a 7?

I don't know what the rules say about drawing to a natural, but it isn't allowed. I think in the version Bond plays, drawing to a Player seven would be allowed, but it never happens, so I'm not sure.

Quote:
I mean of course who knows if this is "authentic" Chemin de Fer, but here
https://www.onlinegambling.com/casino/baccarat/chemin-de-fer/
the rules imply that initial hands are revealed after Player draws.

That page is wrong.

Quote:
Here too
https://www.baccarat.net/chemin-de-fer/
it states "Additional cards are always drawn face-up, since the initial hands have already been revealed" - which again implies that all cards are face up after the Player has drawn or not drawn.

That page is wrong too. Probably one of them copied the other's mistake.

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September 2nd, 2021 at 10:51:06 AM permalink

Interesting. Well, knowing that the player received a 4 or 9 as the third card doesn't help entirely without knowing Player's starting two cards.

But statistically speaking, from the below...if Player is in a position to draw, and draws a 9, more often than not the 9 will reduce not increase, but when it does increase, it will increase all the way to a winning 9 total hand. A Player draw of 4 when player is in a position to draw a third card will always increase Player's hand by +4.

Bank 3: (Player draws a 9)
If Player started with 0, then yes a 9 would help, but if Player started with any other number that would allow a draw - 1,2,3,4,5 - then the 9 would reduce. And if Player has a 6 or 7, Bank only would have to draw not Player.

Bank 5: (Player draws a 4)
If player started with a 0,1,2,3,4,5, and drew a 4, yes that would help, anywhere from a little help to a lot, anyway it would help +4 no matter what. Player would not draw otherwise, not on 6 or 7.

It doesn't make sense to me that Player never has to disclose its initial two cards to Banker until after Banker decides whether to draw. If Player has a 6,7,8,9 it must stand. You're saying that even in those situations the Banker could be sitting there with, say, a tying 6 and deciding whether to hit? Standard rules of Baccarat must apply as far as "stands" or "there will be no draw" situations. I suppose I may see that in the above two situations where there is free will as to Banker's drawing or not drawing, maybe, but in non-free will situations I assume that Player's hand must be disclosed once Player has either stood or drawn.

In other words I am thinking that there could never have been an entirely free will Baccarat as it would lead to absurd situations.

Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 2, 2021

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September 2nd, 2021 at 12:08:42 PM permalink

Quote: OHMSS (novel)
The girl was sitting by herself, with half a bottle of Bollinger in front of her, staring moodily at nothing. She barely looked up when Bond slipped into the chair next to hers and said, 'Well, I'm afraid our syndicate lost again. I tried to get it back. I went "avec". I should have left that brute alone. I stood on a five and he had a "bûche" and then drew a nine.'

She said dully, 'You should have drawn on the five. I always do.' She reflected. 'But then you would have had a four. What was the next card?'

'I didn't wait to see. I came to look for you.'

OHMSS is the last Bond film to closely follow its source novel. For those interested, the book actually devotes an entire chapter to the chemin de fer game...

OHMSS Chapter 3: The Gambit of Shame

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September 2nd, 2021 at 12:31:17 PM permalink

Quote: Gialmere
OHMSS is the last Bond film to closely follow its source novel. For those interested, the book actually devotes an entire chapter to the chemin de fer game...

OHMSS Chapter 3: The Gambit of Shame

I think that comment was true until the Casino Royale reboot came out.

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