Spanish word of the day
Quote: WizardI thought coger meant "to grab."
It does, but:
Quote:Speaking of coger, my tutor made it very clear to not say that word in Argentina, as it is a strong way of saying the F word.
It's so in Mexico. I had no idea it meant that in Argentina, too. it doesn't in Spain. Spaniards in Mexico get into a lot of trouble using that verb. We say "agarrar" for grab.
Quote:Meanwhile, it is all over the children's book I'm working my way through.
Many Spanish translations are Spaniard in origin. They use other "dirty" words like "culo" (ass and/or anus) quite openly, too. Not to mention other odd words no one else uses in the way Spaniards do. For example, to say "alubia" (a type of white bean) they say "judía," which isn't really a slur but it seems like one.
Quote: NareedFor example, to say "alubia" (a type of white bean) they say "judía," which isn't really a slur but it seems like one.
That is pretty close
judía = bean
judia = Jewish
This popular tree is known in English as the Judas Tree, and there is a long standing myth that it is the tree that Judas Iscariot hung himself from in guilt after betraying Jesus.
The more likely theory is that Spaniards called it a "bean tree" since it has pods that look like bean pods.
In the movie Dracula 2001, they start the myth that the rope broke when Judas tried to hang himself, and he was in reality the original vampire.
In the Caribbean and other places around the world they make representations of Judas Iscariot,called a Bobolee and hang him from a tree. On Good Friday they beat Judas to death in effigy. Undoubtedly at one time in history this tradition would deter real Jews from walking around on Good Friday.
Palabra del día: Plazo
Plazo means a period of time. One usage is in paying for something on an installment (plazo) plan.
Ejemplo time
Mi dentista me dijiste que puedo pagar mi cuenta en plazos. = My dentist told me I can pay my bill in installments.
Quote: WizardMi dentista me dijiste que puedo pagar mi cuenta en plazos. = My dentist told me I can pay my bill in installments.
"Mi dentista me dijO..."
You actually said "My dentist you told me..." more or less.
"Plazo" is also the closest word in Spanish to "deadline." Example:
"Tienes de plazo hasta el 31 del presente para pagar." = "Your payment deadline is the 31st of this month."
Quote: NareedYou actually said "My dentist you told me..." more or less.
That is what I wanted to say. I'm trying to use tenses other than the present more often. In this case, the dentist suggested a payment plan sometime in the past.
Quote: WizardThat is what I wanted to say. I'm trying to use tenses other than the present more often. In this case, the dentist suggested a payment plan sometime in the past.
I think you are confusing dijo and digo.
The problem is not with your tense, but with the person of the verb. Nareed didn't change tense, but he changed person. The accident dijiste is past preterite 2nd person informal, and dijo is past preterite 3rd person.
Since the phrase "My dentist told me" could be re-phrased "he told me" using a pronoun, you want to use the 3rd person, or dijo.
Quote: pacomartinThe problem is not with your tense, but with the person of the verb.
D'oh! No excuse for that one. What is my punishment?
- En cuanto a los suyos.
- Para colmo.
- Como sea.
- Echaba un poco de menos.
- Haya puesto.
- Ponerse caprichosa.
- Darle vueltas.
- Que te mejores.
- Estuvo a punto.
- Hará falta.
- A pesar de todo.
Quote: WizardMy tutor has been very busy lately so I hope I can ask about some idioms I ran across.
They aren't all idioms.
Quote:En cuanto a los suyos.
Regarding his/her/their family/friends/colleagues/team mates/etc
Quote:Para colmo.
On top of everything else that happened (more or less)
Quote:Como sea.
Whatever.
Quote:Echaba un poco de menos.
I missed someone a little.
Quote:Haya puesto.
He/she wrote/put/placed something.
Quote:Ponerse caprichosa.
Let me get back to you on that one (not the meaning, but what I will do)
Quote:Darle vueltas.
Turn it around, or beating a dead horse.
Quote:Que te mejores.
Get well
Quote:Estuvo a punto.
He/she/it nearly did/achieved something
Quote:Hará falta.
Something will be needed or there won't be enough of something.
Quote:A pesar de todo.
Despite everything.
Quote: WizardMy tutor has been very busy lately so I hope I can ask about some idioms I ran across. Here are some of them:
- Como sea.
I saw this glamour photo shot posted with the very appreciative statement.
La que es bella, es bella como sea...y esta dama marca la pauta!
That one is beatiful, she is beautiful as is .. and this lady sets the pace.
The phrase como sea could mean "whatever", but it could mean "however". But literally "como" means "what" or "how" or "as".
The verb sea is the English verb "is" (and also "am") but in the subjunctive and not indicative mood; so it's mood is about the hypothetical or desire.
Palabra del día: Pelea
Un otro mas Navidad una otra mas pelea. La pelea es todavía la misma. Todo es mi culpa. Soy egoista. No Tengo espíritu de Navidad. Nunca ayudo con algo. Trabajo solomente dos horas por día. Soy un imbécil en negocios. No tengo nada valor como un marido or uno padre. Este es mi vida.
Lo siento por mi español horrible.
Quote: WizardPalabra del día: Pelea
A veces quieres huir a Puerto Vallarta y beber tequila en una playa.
Quote: pacomartinA veces quieres huir a Puerto Vallarta y beber tequila en una playa.
Prefiero San Jose del Cabo. Afortunadamente, no salgo el país por alcohol. Tengo una abundancia aqui para consolarme.
Quote: WizardThanks for the idiom/phrase help Nareed.
You're welcome.
The missing one, I've yet to look up. "Capricho" means "whim." So "caprichosa" would be a woman or girl given to acting on whim, or driven by whim. I just don't know of an English one-word equivalent. And, no, "whimsy" and "whimsical" are not it.
Sorry about your other problems. I wish I could say something to help. As it is all I can offer is my support, for what little that's worth. If you want to rant or talk about it, you know how to PM me.
Quote: Nareed"Capricho" means "whim." So "caprichosa" would be a woman or girl given to acting on whim, or driven by whim. I just don't know of an English one-word equivalent. And, no, "whimsy" and "whimsical" are not it.
Capricious is an adverb in English, but it is not often used in ordinary conversation. Arbitrary and Capricious (A&C) is a often used legal term if you are requesting a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO).
I am familiar with it in environmental law. For example you refuse to shut down a dredging operation that because the machinery kills a sea turtle once in a while. Your argument is that the operation has been going on for decades and there are still plenty of sea turtles. The activist group requests a TRO on the grounds that no environmental impact statement was prepared. The judge grants a TRO on the basis that the decision was A&C.
This book is making the charge that the Supreme Court has been A&C in their entire operations.
Palabra: Merienda
Merienda means "snack." A related word is the verb merender, which means to eat a snack. Merienda is a nice sounding word; I think it would make for a good girl's name.
Ejemplo time.
¿Quieres helado para una merienda? = Would you like ice cream for a snack?
Quote: NareedSorry about your other problems. I wish I could say something to help. As it is all I can offer is my support, for what little that's worth. If you want to rant or talk about it, you know how to PM me.
Thanks for listening, and the offer. Like most Germans, I don't communicate well, and just silently stew when I get angry. However, my pot is about ready to boil over.
Quote: WizardMerienda means "snack." A related word is the verb merender, which means to eat a snack. Merienda is a nice sounding word; I think it would make for a good girl's name.
Ejemplo time.
¿Quieres helado para una merienda? = Would you like ice cream for a snack?
It seems as if that is a fairly complicated word.
First the English word snack only seems to have acquired it's present day meaning in the last two centuries. Before that it was more related to snatch and referred to the way that a hungry dog will take food. The vulgar definition of "snatch" also refers to a 16th century definition for quick sex.
The Spanish word merienda is derived from the same Latin word that gives us the word "merit", and is also related to food that you give a dog. Dog trainers never give a dog any food, unless they respond to some command first. The word seems to have evolved just like the English word into a quick bite for people to eat.
The phrase "merienda de negros" refers to a confusion of items. I don't think that the word "negros" necessarily refers to dark skinned people in Spanish like it does in English. The equivalent British phrase would be "dog's breakfast" or "dog's dinner" which also means a confusion of items. The obvious implication is that everything got so mixed up that if you were cooking, then the result would only be fit to feed the dog.
The phrase juntar meriendas means to join forces, or to pool one's resources.
The word "merienda" is also a colloquial for hump, presumably because a camel store's fat in their hump to provide nourishment if food is not readily available.
Quote: WizardMerienda means "snack." A related word is the verb merender, which means to eat a snack.
That would be "merendAr".
About "merienda," as I understadn it the custom is, or was, to eat a light meal late in the afternoon or early in the evening before diner. In Mexico, and as I understand in most Spanish-spakig countries, diner is around 8 pm or later. I've never partaken of the custom, though.
A similar meal is "almuerzo" (verb "almorzar"). That's a light meal eaten late in the morning or very early in the afternoon before the mid-day meal (usually call "comida"). the mid-day meal is the big meal of the day, with two courses at least (msot times), and it takes palce around 2-3 pm for most people. Again that's not something I ever did. There was a "lunch" period at school, around noon, but that was more like a snack.
Quote:Merienda is a nice sounding word; I think it would make for a good girl's name.
I suggest you try it on a dog first :)
Quote:¿Quieres helado para una merienda? = Would you like ice cream for a snack?
Ah, this I do know. It's "¿quieres helado para LA merienda?" You'd ask the same way if it were diner or another meal, ie "¿quieres pizza para la cena?"
Quote:Thanks for listening, and the offer.
You're welcome. listening is about all I can do, but the offer is still open.
Quote:Like most Germans, I don't communicate well, and just silently stew when I get angry.
I'm like that, too, and I'm not German (go figure). It must be a simple peculiarity. I do communicate well, when I want to. Much of the time, though, I'm repressing things. And that makes me angry...
Quote: NareedA similar meal is "almuerzo" (verb "almorzar"). That's a light meal eaten late in the morning or very early in the afternoon before the mid-day meal (usually call "comida"). the mid-day meal is the big meal of the day, with two courses at least (msot times), and it takes palce around 2-3 pm for most people. Again that's not something I ever did. There was a "lunch" period at school, around noon, but that was more like a snack.
Somewhere I read about this before. Maybe it was here. So, it would seem there are four meals a day in Mexico:
desayuno = breakfast
almuerzo = snack/first lunch
merienda = lunch
cena = dinner
Where it gets confusing for me is the word comeda seems to also carry connotations of "lunch," and comer can mean to eat lunch.
Is there any word that just means "food" in general? I know you said that your job is selling food, but how would you put that in Spanish? If you use the word comida in your repuesta, how would the listener know you didn't just sell lunch food?
Here is the passage from the book I'm reading. This is a translation of an English book where the main character came home from school and had to baby sit a younger girl. The younger girl ordered her to eat her snack in a hurry so they could play:
"Date prisa. Tienes que merendar," ordenó a Ramona mientras su abuela veía la televisión y tejia. Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña y galletas de centeno,...
Finally, there is an interesting discussion of American vs. Mexican Coke in this thread.
Quote: WizardHere is the passage from the book I'm reading. This is a translation of an English book where the main character came home from school and had to baby sit a younger girl. The younger girl ordered her to eat her snack in a hurry so they could play:
"Date prisa. Tienes que merendar," ordenó a Ramona mientras su abuela veía la televisión y tejia. Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña y galletas de centeno,...
Quote: Original English"Hurry up and have your snack," she ordered, while her grandmother sat watching television and crocheting.
The snack turned out to be pineapple juice and Rye Crisp,...
A few observations:
1) date prisa means exactly "hurry up"
2) tienes que + infinitive means "you have to ..." whatever the infinitive verb says {Very useful phrase}
2a) Useful sentence: Que tienes que hacer hoy? means "What do you have to do today?"
3) ordenó a Ramona : the translation uses past preterite as it is an action completed in the past. Note that the translation spells out who is the recipient of the order to make it clear.
4) veía is the imperfect indicative past, while the English uses the "past progressive" tense. The literal translation for "was watching" is "estaba viendo", but it would be unlikely that a Spanish speaker would say it that way.
5) resultó is the past preterite form of "resultar" or "to turn out"
6) era is the past imperfect form of "ser" or "to be (essentially)" (*further discussion)
7) galletas are both cookies and crackers. Sometimes you see galletas saladas which are salad crackers which removes any doubt.
*Note that the English uses the infinitive form "to be", while Spanish uses the past imperfect form of "ser", or "era". It seems to me that you don't actually use "ser" in the infinitive form as often as we say "to be" in English. I have no statistics to back that up.
A natural question is what does it mean to be the preterite past of a verb ser? Certainly existence almost by definition is ongoing. The answer is that the preterite past of ser is the same as the preterite past of ir or "to go". The accidents are "fui, fuiste, fue, fuimos, fueron".
Notice that the verb "to be" in Spanish is an amalgamation of different latin verbs. It's conjugation is highly irregular. Where the infinitive is ser, present tense is "soy" ,"eres", "es" while past imperfect is "era", "eras", "era" and past preterite is "fui", "fuiste", and "fue".
But you should note that the English verb is just as irregular. The infinitive is "to be", while the accidents are "am", "are", "is", "was". "were" and the participles are "being" and "been". In addition we have the archaic forms like "art", "werst", "beest" and "be all". In fact the English verb to be is an amalgamation of several different Anglo Saxon verbs.
Quote: WizardSomewhere I read about this before. Maybe it was here. So, it would seem there are four meals a day in Mexico:
Five.
But most people eat three: Deasyuno, ComIda y Cena.
The timing depends on your shcedule. mine is about like this:
Desayuno 7:20 am
Comida 2-3 pm
Cena 8-9 pm
Quote:Where it gets confusing for me is the word comeda seems to also carry connotations of "lunch," and comer can mean to eat lunch.
Double duty words.. <sigh>
ComIda literally means food, which answers your other question. Comer means to eat. But Comida also means the mid-day meal, or lunch, and comer can mean eating the comida.
Quote:Is there any word that just means "food" in general? I know you said that your job is selling food, but how would you put that in Spanish?
There's a number of words for food: víveres, comida and alimentos are the most common.
Quote:"Date prisa. Tienes que merendar," ordenó a Ramona mientras su abuela veía la televisión y tejia. Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña y galletas de centeno,...
Wow. Find out where that was translated. "Centeno" is a type of grain, but I'm not sure which. It seems odd to reffer to the grain the cookies are made of. Whats' the original English say?
Quote:Finally, there is an interesting discussion of American vs. Mexican Coke in this thread.
I saw. I posted a bit. The last time I drank a soda with sugar in it on prupose was after donating blood. I downed it so fast I don't think I tasted it.
Edited to add:
The day you and Teddys and I met, I debated whether to have breakfast or not, seeing as we would be eating lunch by noon or so, which is too early for me. Since I was still running on Mex City time, though, and woke up far too early, I had a light breakfast only.
Quote: WizardIs there any word that just means "food" in general?
alimento as a noun means "food" or "nourishment" . An English cognate would be alimony
alimentar means "to feed"
alimento means "I feed" as first person present indicative of verb. Distinguished from the noun by context.
alimentarse means "to feed myself" (I don't know if this form is used very often. I suspect not.)
Quote: NareedWow. Find out where that was translated. "Centeno" is a type of grain, but I'm not sure which. It seems odd to reffer to the grain the cookies are made of. Whats' the original English say?
The speaker is a five year old girl at her grandmother's house. She is talking to a slightly older girl named Ramona. The book is about 30 years old.
"Hurry up and have your snack," she ordered, while her grandmother sat watching television and crocheting.
"Date prisa. Tienes que merendar," ordenó a Ramona mientras su abuela veía la televisión y tejia.
The snack turned out to be pineapple juice and Rye Crisp,...
Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña y galletas de centeno,...
Rye Crisp crackers are very popular in Scandinavia where they are eaten constantly. Americans tend to prefer saltier crackers.
Quote: pacomartinThe snack turned out to be pineapple juice and Rye Crisp,...
What's really odd is juice with crackers....
Seriously, the grain a cookie or cracker si amde of doesn't get much mention in Mexico. Partly because 99% are made of wheat, I guess.
Also there's no word for crackers in Spanish. The closest term is "galletas saladas."
Quote: NareedFive.
But most people eat three: Deasyuno, ComIda y Cena.
Do I have this right and in order?
desayuno, merienda, comida, almuerzo, cena?
Fecha: 28-12-11
Palabra del día: Partir
Today's word is one of those tricky words that generally means to divide or crack open, but finds its way into other expressions as well. Since Paco enjoyed dissecting the last passage from Ramona, let's look at where I found today's SWD.
Quote: EnglishNothing in the whole world felt as good as being able to make something from a sudden idea.
Quote: SpanishNo hay nada mejor en el mundo entero que ponerse a hacer algo partiendo de una idea repentina.
Here we see partir being used in a sense that the sudden idea cracked open and Ramona made something from it.
When I read through the Spanish version I was also confused by que ponerse. Normally poner means to put. I've also seen it used in a sense of turning something on or doing something. Using it in a sense of "to feel good" is totally new to me, and would appreciate comment.
Quote: WizardI haven't thought about Rye Crisp crackers in decades. My father used to eat them all the time, and they were often the only decent snack in the house. Did they quit making them? I haven't seen them around their house for at least 25 years.
Today's word is one of those tricky words that generally means to divide or crack open, but finds its way into other expressions as well. Since Paco enjoyed dissecting the last passage from Ramona, let's look at where I found today's SWD.
When I read through the Spanish version I was also confused by que ponerse. Normally poner means to put. I've also seen it used in a sense of turning something on or doing something. Using it in a sense of "to feel good" is totally new to me, and would appreciate comment.
Rye crisps are very popular in Scandinavia where the government has a campaign to eat them every day. They are too bland for most Americans who prefer their snacks much saltier.
I dissected the sentence to show how many decisions go into translating a book for children. I noticed Nareed doesn't read my longer posts because she repeats some of the things I say. I suspect the rather lengthy discussion of grammar points are tedious if you know the language. But for Wiz, try and translate one passage yourself from English, and then compare it to the Spanish version and see how many verb tenses you both agree on. You are more likely to use a "-ing" form of a verb because they are so prevalent in English.
The word "mejor" means "to feel good", not "ponerse".
que ponerse a hacer means "to start doing " ... or more literally "to start to make "...
I've noticed the translator of Ramona seems to put a priority over something that sounds good in Spanish, to a close translation of the English text. In all fairness, how many readers of the Spanish version are judging it against the English one?
Verb tenses are one of my weakest areas when it comes to Spanish, and one I seldom get right. The book I mentioned earlier "Breaking out of Beginner's Spanish" at least agrees with me that this is one of the toughest areas to master in Spanish, and that books can only go so far to explain it. You have to develop a touch to it that is only acquired though immersion.
Quote: WizardVerb tenses are one of my weakest areas when it comes to Spanish, and one I seldom get right. The book I mentioned earlier "Breaking out of Beginner's Spanish" at least agrees with me that this is one of the toughest areas to master in Spanish, and that books can only go so far to explain it. You have to develop a touch to it that is only acquired though immersion.
Well, it is difficult. In some cases (like the one below) you use a different form in English than they do in Spanish. Just be happy that Spanish only changes nouns by gender. If you had to inflect nouns by whether they are the subject, direct object, indirect object, or possessive than it would be very difficult. Spanish retained the inflection in the verbs from Latin, but they lost most of the noun inflections (except for gender).
==========================
Nareed
The literal translation of the English verb to be is either ser or a ser. Could we use that form of the verb instead of era in the translation? Would it still make sense?
The snack turned out to be pineapple juice.
(1) Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña.
(2) Resultó que la merienda a ser un jugo de piña.
Quote: WizardSomewhere I read about this before. Maybe it was here. So, it would seem there are four meals a day in Mexico:
desayuno = breakfast
almuerzo = snack/first lunch
merienda = lunch
cena = dinner
Where it gets confusing for me is the word comeda seems to also carry connotations of "lunch," and comer can mean to eat lunch.
Yahoo answers says:
- first meal, usually around 7-8 am (breakfast) => 'desayuno'. It is usually light.
- a late breakfast, around 10-11 am (lunch) => 'almuerzo'. Usually, it is heavier than breakfast.
- 'dinner' is used for the main meal of the day, around 6 pm, but in Mexico the main meal is taken around 2-3 pm => 'comida'.
- 'night snack' would be around 8-9 pm, but in Mexico is taken around 7-8, usually by children, before going to bed => 'merienda'.
- a late meal, usually taken by adults or in a social environment, around 9-10 pm => 'cena'
In restaurants I've always seen 'comida corrida' for meals before 5 pm and after 1-2 pm.
But that meal schedule seems more suited to a traditional economy where you open a shop at 8 am and close at 8 pm with a mid day break. Some variant would work for farm work, possibly where the meal is portable. I can't imagine most office workers eat on that schedule.
I have never associated "comer" with eating a specific meal. There are verbs like "desayuner" and "almorzar" and "cenar" which involve eating a specific meal.
"Almorzar" is actually from an Arabic word. The "al" at the beginning reveals it's origin.
Strangely enough the French verb déjeuner means to have lunch. That is confusing.
Here it is common to snack between lunch and dinner, and it isn't unusual to get the munchies again before going to bed. Judging from the convenience stores, what counts as a snack here is usually laden with salt, sugar, and fat. Perhaps if we took the time to call these snacks a meal, and prepare something decent, we would be better off.
On another topic, I finally heard from my tutor about the Se puede/pueden ver muchas estrellas en noche clara. You may recall that she said puede. Then I challenged her on the argument behind pueden. She said technically pueden is correct, but also says puede isn't incorrect. She said that when she was a teacher she would have never taken away points for puede, and some rules in Spanish could justify it. However, if one were to have a heavy academic debate on it, pueden would win.
Quote: Wizard
On another topic, I finally heard from my tutor about the Se puede/pueden ver muchas estrellas en noche clara. You may recall that she said puede. Then I challenged her on the argument behind pueden. She said technically pueden is correct, but also says puede isn't incorrect. She said that when she was a teacher she would have never taken away points for puede, and some rules in Spanish could justify it. However, if one were to have a heavy academic debate on it, pueden would win.
That is a confusing paragraph.
The mediopassive is almost nonexistent in English. In English we use the "impersonal pronoun". I think if you wrote the sentence in English first as "One can see many stars ..." and then ask someone to translate it into Spanish retaining not just meaning but grammatical structure it must translate as "Uno puede ver muchas estrellas ...".
But if you write the sentence in Spanish as "se puede ver muchas estrellas ..." then it is natural to see that mediopassive construct (and not the impersonal pronoun) which requires the plural verb to match the plural noun "estrellas".
In English the phrases "One can see many stars ..." and "Many stars can be seen..." have different grammar constructions, but identical meanings. If you just say to translate the sentence into Spanish, the translator is free to use whichever voice or verb tense sounds natural in the language.
From the Beverly Cleary translations you gave as examples, there are several cases where the translator changed the tense so that it reads more naturally in Spanish. I think with regard to the 'many stars' sentence, it just feels more natural in passive voice (technically mediopassive voice).
I asked JesicaPM which way are you most likely to say the phrase:
Si yo fuera tú
Si yo fuese tú
She answered:
I had never thought about this. The meaning is the same, but "fuera" sounds more natural and less formal to me, and "fuese" sounds more formal. I've noticed that many people, young people in particular, use this verb tense incorrectly, especially when speaking, and they say: "Si yo sería tú".
I thought that comment would be a good start to discuss the conditional mood in present tense (potencial simple). I don't think that we have mentioned it at all.
My book says that one of the uses of this tense is for conjecture regarding the past. The usual translation is into English is to use the word would.
I would not yell as much, if only you let me defend myself.
But as Spanish is merciless, it means another whole set of inflections to learn, and all the cases of irregularities.
Perhaps you could give us some more examples or questions to chew on to get the ball rolling.
I've been too busy to post. But, yes Paco, I get lost in long grammar discussions. I don't speak Grammarese :)
Quote: pacomartinThe literal translation of the English verb to be is either ser or a ser.
A ser is not a verb. The translation of "to be" is "ser" o "estar"
Quote:Could we use that form of the verb instead of era in the translation? Would it still make sense?
The snack turned out to be pineapple juice.
(1) Resultó que la merienda era un jugo de piña.
(2) Resultó que la merienda a ser un jugo de piña.
Number two is wrong. You'd say "La merienda resultó ser...."
I think I've said before tranlsations need to first convey the meaning accurately, then the feel of the original, and lastly the style. In children's books, I imagine, style can count more since they're supposed to be easier to comprehend.
Palabra del día: Avergonzado
Today's SWD, avergonzado means embarrassed. There are lots of related words:
avergonzar = to embarrass.
avergonzarse = to be embarrassed.
vergüenza = shame (which you may remember from the Gilligan's Island series)
A question for the advanced readers would be whether the ver in these words comes from the truthful ver in words like verify, verdad, and verdict, or the verb ver, meaning to see.
Ramona time.
Quote: English"Tell me Ramona," she said, "don't you ever try to show off?" Ramona was embarrassed.
Quote: Spanish"A ver, Ramona," dijo, "¿Tú nunca tratas de llamar la atención? Ramona se sintió avergonzada."
Quote: WizardA question for the advanced readers would be whether the ver in these words comes from the truthful ver in words like verify, verdad, and verdict, or the verb ver, meaning to see.
Gonzar is a city only a day's walk from Santiago de Compostella,Galicia Spain. As we discussed, this city was the endpoint of the pilgrimage of the faithful Christians for well over a thousand years. It's tempting to say that the word looks like if you "See Gonzar" you are nearing the end of your journey to atone for your sins. But that is a fanciful etymology. I can't see any known relation between the words.
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Note that proponents of e-prime would say that Ramona was embarrassed should be restated as Ramona felt embarrassed . In general they argue that every time we say "to be" in English, we could substitute a more descriptive verb. The Spanish translation does exactly that substitution.
Quote: WizardThe conditional tense is one I haven't tried to absorb yet. I know it is out there, but I'm still working on some of the most common tenses.
Perhaps you could give us some more examples or questions to chew on to get the ball rolling.
Possibly the most common use would be:
Me gustaría tomar un cerveza.
It's a little more polite than saying Yo quiero un cerveza.
You would say "I would like a beer" in English anyway. You don't normally say "I like beer".
Ejemplo 2:
¿Quién sería?
I wonder who that was? (Conjecture regarding the past)
For -er and -ir verbs, the endings are the same as the imperfect indicative (continuing past). But they are appended to a different base word
Vebo creer or "to believe"
yo creía, tú creías, usted/él/ella creía, nosotros/as creíamos, ustedes/ellos/ellas creían (imperfecto del indicativo)
yo creería, tú creerías, usted/él/ella creería, nosotros/as creeríamos, ustedes/ellos/ellas creerían (condicional)
Quote: WizardDoes the se in Ramona se sintió avergonzada imply that Ramona felt embarrassed for herself? Would the sentence mean Ramona embarrassed herself if it didn't have the se?
sentir means to feel (or sometimes to feel sorry)
sentirse mean to feel either well or ill
Short Anwer: The verb is being used reflexively. She doesn't feel some emotion about someone else.
More details
Quote: Direct/Indirect objects (refresher)
John sold the book (John subject; book is direct object)
John sold the book to Mary (John subject; book is direct object; Mary is indirect object) Indirect object tells where direct object is going)
He sold it to her: Same sentence with pronouns.
In Spanish
direct object pronouns
me, te, lo/la, nos, os/vos, los/las
indirect object pronouns
me, te, le/se, nos, os/vos, les/se
Lo siento is "I feel sorry" (direct object pronoun: the lo stands for you - formal)
¿Cómo Se Siente Hoy? means "How do you feel today?" (reflexive se)
Me Siento is "I feel bad" (reflexive me)
Quote: pacomartin¿Cómo Se Siente Hoy? means "How do you feel today?" (reflexive se)
I'm still confused. If it is reflexive then I would interpret the construction to be "How do you feel about yourself today?" In that case, since you used the formal "you" wouldn't it be ¿Cómo Lo Siente Hoy?
I'm still not sure what the se adds to this sentence, Ramona se sintió avergonzada. Could I say that it is just redundant? Like we don't need the yo in Yo hablo Español.
Quote: WizardI'm still confused. If it is reflexive then I would interpret the construction to be "How do you feel about yourself today?" In that case, since you used the formal "you" wouldn't it be ¿Cómo Lo Siente Hoy?
I'm still not sure what the se adds to this sentence, Ramona se sintió avergonzada. Could I say that it is just redundant? Like we don't need the yo in Yo hablo Español.
Answer to your first question:Lo is not a reflexive pronoun. The reflexive pronouns are me, te, se, and nos. So the question is not using the reflexive version of the sentir.
As to your second question: I had to double check on another forum, and I got two different answers. One person thought "se" was necessary the other thought it was not necessary. But I think it is necessary. Nareed will have to confirm.
examples of reflexive use of the verb
Paco se sintió avergonzado
Paco se sintió enfermo.
Paco se sintió culpable.
examples of transitive use of verb
Paco sintió frío.
Paco sintió miedo.
Paco sintió un deseo de matar a alguien.
The "se" is not optional when it is reflexive. I admit that it is difficult to tell when you are reacting to an outside influence, and when the discussion is about an internal state of mind. But if the verb is followed by noun then it is always transitive. Reflexive verbs can only be followed by adjectives or adverbs.
If you feel embarrassed, sick or guilty then the verb is reflexive. If you feel cold, afraid, or have a strong desire then the verb is transitive.
Quote: WizardHere we see partir being used in a sense that the sudden idea cracked open and Ramona made something from it.
Uh, no.
In this case "partir" means "originating from." It can also mean "to depart." And it can mean "starting on" or "beginning on"
Quote:When I read through the Spanish version I was also confused by que ponerse. Normally poner means to put. I've also seen it used in a sense of turning something on or doing something. Using it in a sense of "to feel good" is totally new to me, and would appreciate comment.
It does not mean "to feel good" at all. But the dictionary gives it over 40 definitions....
I'd translate the Spanish sentence thus: "There's nothing better in the whole world, than to set out to make something from a sudden idea."
I'd have translated the English original thus: "nada en todo el mundo se siente mejor que poder hacer algo con una idea repentina."
I like my version better, as it preserves the feel and intent of the original. I think too many translators are failed writers, so they re-write the books they translate to suit their taste. it would explain a lot of bad translations I've come across.
Quote: pacomartin
examples of reflexive use of the verb
Paco se sintió avergonzado
Paco se sintió enfermo.
Paco se sintió culpable.
examples of transitive use of verb
Paco sintió frío.
Paco sintió miedo.
Paco sintió un deseo de matar a alguien.
Thanks. I'd appreciate Nareed's confirmation, but I know she has been running very busy lately. This will be worthy of bouncing off my tutor, but she has been running busy too.
Quiero que tus sentimientos homicida son iba.
Quote: WizardThanks. I'd appreciate Nareed's confirmation, but I know she has been running very busy lately.
Yeah, well, I couldn't say what's reflexive to save my life, so... But what Paco wrote is right, except the last one. it's understandable, but the right thing to say would be "Paco sintió deseos de matar a alguien."
BTW busy doesn't even begin to describe it. Aside from that exit around 4 am last week, I had to show up today to do the petty cash reimbursement requests. I missed all the morning games :(
Quote:This will be worthy of bouncing off my tutor, but she has been running busy too.
Quiero que tus sentimientos homicida son iba.
I wouldn't bounce that off your tutor. I'm not sure what Argentinians think of corporal punishment... Seriously, I hope you got that from a machine translator.
Turning it back to English it would read "I want that your feelings homicide are going." Or words to that effect.
Assuming you meant to say "I wish your homicidal feelings would go away," then you should have said "Quisiera que tus sentiminetos homicidas desaparezcan" which doesn't mean literally what I said in English, but it's how you'd say it in Spanish. FYI the Spanish means, literally, "I wish your homicidal feelings would disappear."
Quote: WizardThanks. I'd appreciate Nareed's confirmation, but I know she has been running very busy lately. This will be worthy of bouncing off my tutor, but she has been running busy too.
A similar verb is apresurar:
apresurar = {verbo transitivo} meter prisa a: to hurry or to speed up;
apresurarse = {verbo pronominal}: apresúrate, que llegamos tarde: hurry up or we'll be late;
The two meanings seem nearly identical in English.
Sometimes there are grammar clues. You use transitive verbs with a noun as the direct object.
Reflexive verbs are used with adjectives, adverbs, or infinitives.
But cold is both a noun and an adjective both in English and Spanish. So that rule doesn't always work.
Tranisitive use of a verb is an actions that requires a direct object. Some verbs are exclusively transitive, some exclusively intransitive, and some are both. Most of the time, when a transitive verb is used in English, you'll use a transitive one in Spanish. However, there are some verbs that can be used transitively in one language but not the other.
An example of a verb that can be used transitively in English but not Spanish is "to swim," as in "He swam the river."
But the Spanish equivalent, nadar, can't be used in that way.
While you can swim something in English, you can't nadar algo in Spanish. You'll need to rephrase as: Nadó por el río.
In English, you can not sleep something, but in Spanish you can:
La madre durmió al niño.
The mother put the boy to sleep.
Nareed will have to tell us if there is an equivalent to the phrase "put to sleep" in English where you mean to kill.
Quote: pacomartinNareed will have to tell us if there is an equivalent to the phrase "put to sleep" in English where you mean to kill.
You know, I'm not sure. I mean, there is a phrase like that, I'm sure of that, but I can't remember what it is. I think if you have the vet put a dog "to sleep," you say "El veterinario durmió al perro," or "El veterinario pusó a dormir al perro," but I'm not sure. It sounds right, that's all I can say.
You can't walk something in Spanish, either, speaking of dogs. You take the dog for a walk.
But you can run things. If you say "corre el programa," you mean "run the program." If you say "corre al mensajero," you mean "fire the messenger." You do not "run a race," you say "corrí en la carrera."
Quote: NareedYou can't walk something in Spanish, either, speaking of dogs. You take the dog for a walk.
Well in English to "put a dog to sleep" is a relatively new use of the verb only recorded for the first time in the 1940's. I am not surprised it has no direct equivalent in Spanish.
I did not know that about "to walk". It's very natural to say "I am walking the dog".
Doler is another verb that English speakers use as a transitive verb like in Don't hurt me!. It seems like you would translate the phrase as "No dueles mi", but I know that doesn't make sense in Spanish. 'Google translate' suggests No me hagas daño! but that sounds funny to me (Do not do damage to me!). I am actually not sure if that is the most natural way to translate that phrase.
Quote: pacomartin'Google translate' suggests No me hagas daño! but that sounds funny to me (Do not do damage to me!). I am actually not sure if that is the most natural way to translate that phrase.
It's not. Literally it does amke sense, but the "natural" translation is "No me lastimes."
Doler is a problematic verb. It means "to cause pain." There's no exact translation to English. hurt works, but hurt has two meanings in Spanish.
Consider these examples:
Me duele el pie cuando camino = My foot hurts when I walk
Me lastimé el pie caminando = I hurt my foot walking. Or I injured my foot walking.
Quote: Nareed"natural" translation is "No me lastimes."
I would have never guessed that in a million years. I always heard people say ¡Qué lástima! for "What a pity". I would never connect pity and hurt.
The dictionary says Spanish lastimar comes from Latin blastemare where we get the English to blaspheme. That connection is also surprising.
