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EvenBob
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:04:31 PM permalink
Quote: FarFromVegas

If I ever sat down at a table, I'd do what the other players were doing. .



You'd be doing what most of them do then, follow
the lead of the big player.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: reno

Dan, do you have any theories as to why the Golden Nugget isn't suing any employees? As far as we know, no one has even been fired, let alone prosecuted (although we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.)

If I owned a casino, I would be very upset to learn that one of my customers was stealing from me. But I would be far more upset to learn that one of my employees was stealing from me. It stings a lot more to get robbed by someone you know and trust than to get robbed by a total stranger.



This is a $64,000 question, to undervalue it.

Maybe it was all just a perfect storm of bizarre incompetence, temporary blindness of the dealers' "poker eyes" (how their eyes just shut off on a live game is beyond me..), inexlicable breakdowns and such, that it was chalked up to a 1-in-a-million "storm of ineptitude" that gets them off the hook - along with the fact that suing the dealers is bad press if a red-hot smoking gun is absent.

The fact that they were not fired, when dealers can almost be fired for being 'too chipper on a Sunny day' is also unfathomable.

maybe firing the dealers and floor admits problems and opens a can of worms, to include counter suits where everyone is pointing fingers at everyone else, and they all just want to move on....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
24Bingo
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:18:02 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Human error does not void all plays. Never said or implied that:
However, Procedural error (which is different, and may stem from either error OR malfeasance) may invalidate plays, with the floor/management making final call. This should be know and accepted by all going into a sanctioned game.
This may inlude anything from "fine, players keep the paid out amounts," to "everyone pushes," to "we suspect malfeasance, and will investigate for the return of the money" - which seems to be the attempt here.



I suppose I can't actually say this is false, but given that I recall you quoting a court opinion that hole carding was legal and saying it was only referring to card counters, I have to take any laws you say favor the casino with a grain of salt. All I know is that if I'm denied a cashout of any real size because of another's malfeasance or "procedural error" such as a bad shuffle, I'm calling a lawyer.

Quote: Paigowdan

You eyeball/fan ALL new decks that were pulled from there celophane-wraped boxes.



...you fan them. Turn them face up and spread them out, like a blackjack or poker deck. When they're about to be put into the shoe without a further shuffle.

...

Save me a seat!
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:30:51 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

Quote: Paigowdan

Human error does not void all plays. Never said or implied that:
However, Procedural error (which is different, and may stem from either error OR malfeasance) may invalidate plays, with the floor/management making final call. This should be know and accepted by all going into a sanctioned game.
This may inlude anything from "fine, players keep the paid out amounts," to "everyone pushes," to "we suspect malfeasance, and will investigate for the return of the money" - which seems to be the attempt here.



I suppose I can't actually say this is false, but given that I recall you quoting a court opinion that hole carding was legal and saying it was only referring to card counters, I have to take any laws you say favor the casino with a grain of salt.


No one is talking laws are statutes here, 24Bingo.
Every live game issue that needs to be resolved is different. I said the floor supervision makes the call on a live game issue. And yes, a casino may investigate and follow up on a serious situation it has a problem with.

Quote: 24Bingo

All I know is that if I'm denied a cashout of any real size because of another's malfeasance or "procedural error" such as a bad shuffle, I'm calling a lawyer.


You do that, you have every right.

Quote: 24Bingo

you fan them. Turn them face up and spread them out, like a blackjack or poker deck. When they're about to be put into the shoe without a further shuffle.
Save me a seat!


Before cards go on a live game and are handed to the dealer, the floorman is the one who opens the new box of cards and fans them in his hands as a mandatory initial basic check, to see if they are ordered or shuffled. The he hands them off to the dealer.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
charliepatrick
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:35:39 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

... the casino still must check - "eyeball" - EVERY single deck that goes on a live game....

Without taking sides I implicitly trust the players who were there when the table opened to have checked the cards since unless I was there at the time there's no way I can check whether there are the right cards being played. I have found most dealer's fan the cards so (a) the camera can see they are all there and (b) runs his hand across checking each card is there (i.e. a bit more than a cursory glance or "eyeball"). Indeed last week I joked with a dealer that the 9 and 10 of spades weren't showing and he should open them up a bit to prove it to the camera. Also quite often the inspector has to give the go-ahead before shuffling occurs.

The only time I have taken advantage is where previous players had 14 13 and I had 12 against a 6 and the cards had come 7H, 8H - so I joked with the dealer and doubled (probably for $3) to get 9H! It broke the ice, the dealer shuffled up again, and we all stayed and had a good game. From the casino's perspective a wise investment of their $3!

I agree that, while it is almost forgiveable the cards weren't initially shuffled, not noticing the problem for so long shows a serious lack of controls. You would have thought, except at low value tables, it requires at least two people to mess things up so badly.
RonC
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August 23rd, 2012 at 4:50:46 PM permalink
I just re-read the story and the whole issue makes no sense as far as basic procedures seem to dictate. I'm sure there may be more or less to the process, but EVERY card game i have ever played where cards have been changed BEGINS with making sure that there are the correct number of cards AND the correct cards.

Why would any casino buy ANY decks of unshuffled cards in the first place? What is their means of verification that they were shuffled? What if the shuffler, not on their premises, actually shuffled them into perfect order? We're all about the math here--I am sure there is a chance that random shuffles could indeed do that. Not a big chance, but enough that it could happen. On the other side, what if their order shuffled then in a way that one side or the other won more often because the casino wanted them that way? Maybe a big "banker" bettor comes in and a deck that favors "player" gets brought into play.

The casino brought this on themselves. I think they should pay up. They took a shortcut-verifying and shuffling takes time, so they outsourced it. It appears their process involved placing cards they neither verified nor shuffled into play. Just plain stupid. The people responsible for the immediate game also were wrong for not determining that their was an issue. The players? Again, as long as there is an iota of a chance the "pre-shuffled" cards could have been placed in an order beneficial to them without their knowledge, how is it their fault?
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 5:08:36 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

The casino brought this on themselves.


Yes, they are fundamentally at fault. But it can be argued that the players were full partners in this scenario. It really took both sides (casino side and player side) for this to go down, so no, it was NOT one-sided.
Quote: RonC

I think they should pay up. They took a shortcut-verifying and shuffling takes time, so they outsourced it.


A foolish short-cut that cost them dearly instead of saving money for them. They should pay up if the players are absolved, which has a reasonable challenge of their actual participation in this mess.
Quote: RonC

The people responsible for the immediate game also were wrong for not determining that their was an issue. The players? Again, as long as there is an iota of a chance the "pre-shuffled" cards could have been placed in an order beneficial to them without their knowledge, how is it their fault?


The players may have to declare or prove both innocence and ignorance, which may be hard to do as they were provably and unquestionably utilizing a stacked deck, and manipulating bets and performing bankroll management to the full extent on a stacked deck. The argument by not be if they themselved had stacked the deck, but if they had utilized the stack deck as a stacked deck. These are issues that management and lawyers are involved with. The "fault" argument is a little like a burglar saying, "RonC or PaiGowDan left his front door open by error; so how am I responsible for burglarizing his house if HE made the error of an unlocked door? You see, I am innocent..." You cannot ignore two-party involvement.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
reno
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August 23rd, 2012 at 5:37:03 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

A foolish short-cut that cost them dearly instead of saving money for them.



This already happened at Trump Taj Mahal in December. The Taj got fined $91,000 and fired 9 people. I just don't understand why the Golden Nugget didn't learn from Trump's mistake! If I was the lawyer for the defendants, I would remind the court repeatedly of this embarrassing fact.
rxwine
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August 23rd, 2012 at 5:37:54 PM permalink
Have we mentioned that casinos were keeping customer money from TITO.

Is that not dirty money?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 5:41:43 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Have we mentioned that casinos were keeping customer money from TITO.

Is that not dirty money?



Dunno. It's unclaimed money. A factor is how long it's idle/unclaimed, I assume.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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August 23rd, 2012 at 5:50:21 PM permalink
Taj Mahal was different: there the dealer took a break mid-shuffle and a machine that should have been 'on' was 'off'.

At the Golden Nugget they wholesaled the shuffling process out to GAMCO and used the "saved time" to be applying that house edge ... a very dangerous step to take for the sake of "savings". Undoubtedly dreamed up by an MBA-type with no common sense.

The inevitable happened, perhaps with collusion, perhaps not.
SanchoPanza
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August 23rd, 2012 at 6:11:24 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

The argument by not be if they themselved had stacked the deck, but if they had utilized the stack deck as a stacked deck. These are issues that management and lawyers are involved with.


It's a lot more than that. Start with the regulators and then go to the judges. The management and lawyers have already proven themselves incompetent or corrupt.
SanchoPanza
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August 23rd, 2012 at 6:15:36 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

maybe firing the dealers and floor admits problems and opens a can of worms, to include counter suits where everyone is pointing fingers at everyone else, and they all just want to move on....


Obviously all the ballyhooed "game protection" completely broke down without anyone taking timely notice. That raises seriously grave doubts about the integrity of any and all games in Landry casinos. If neither the company nor the regulators come clean and answer the glaringly obvious and basic questions, they really don't deserve much of my business.
JB
Administrator
JB
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August 23rd, 2012 at 6:19:04 PM permalink
Several posts imply that both the players and the card manufacturer Gemaco are being sued. Is the casino trying to get back the $1.5 million from the players and another $1.5 million from Gemaco, thereby profiting from their own mistake?
EvenBob
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August 23rd, 2012 at 6:19:46 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Obviously all the ballyhooed "game protection" completely broke down without anyone taking timely notice. That raises seriously grave doubts about the integrity of any and all games in Landry casinos. .



Or in any casino. Floor people don't get paid
enough to worry much about 'game protection'.
They're more worried about their next break
and when they can sit down for a few minutes.
Screw game protection, not my problem, is what
they say to themselves.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
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August 23rd, 2012 at 6:39:41 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Several posts imply that both the players and the card manufacturer Gemaco are being sued. Is the casino trying to get back the $1.5 million from the players and another $1.5 million from Gemaco, thereby profiting from their own mistake?



I doubt that they will profit as litigation costs money as well. You can always sue for damages.

Someone raised the point that many articles all used the word "unshuffled" by which you mean 2-3-4...K-A spades, 2-3-4...K-A hearts, etc.
I suspect that the casino discovered that the cards were all in a repetitive, seemingly random order. That's why it took a few hours. They just put in the press release "shuffled" because the casino knew it was going to go into litigation. They didn't want to release all their evidence.

The only thing that makes any logical sense is that the entire thing was a scam that was coordinated with someone inside the manufacturer's operation. He must have loaded the decks into a box bound for GN. Perhaps he put a mark on the decks of cards and another insider at the GN alerted the team of players. Or perhaps the players just eyeballed the cards until they recognized the sequence. Then they began to raise their bets.

It's quite possible the player knew that the scheme would eventually come to light, they just believed they had enough time to cash in before the casino figured out what had happened.

In my personal dealings with lawyers, the policy they follow is to release as little information as possible, even if it seems benign. By releasing to the press that the cards were in a uniform order, they are essentially accusing someone involved with the manufacture of the cards of being part of the collusion. It is much easier to tell the press that the cards were "unshuffled" even if it makes them look stupid in the short term.
EvenBob
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August 23rd, 2012 at 7:17:28 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin


In my personal dealings with lawyers, the policy they follow is to release as little information as possible, even if it seems benign..



Lawyers go to school and learn the law. Then
they spend the rest of their lives trying to find
ways around it. The best lawyer I ever saw
and did a couple things for me in the 90's,
is now in federal prison for 2yrs on fraud
charges. He has good company though, lots
of lawyers doing time in the same joint.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SOOPOO
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August 23rd, 2012 at 7:48:35 PM permalink
Quite amazing! Dan cannot answer a simple question. I'll try again.

What would a pit boss answer to a customer if asked ... "Is it my (the customer) responsibility to alert you if I believe the deck was not shuffled properly, or can I use that information to play out the hand and win?"

I think the pit boss will start the answer with either a "Yes" or a "No". Which is it?
FleaStiff
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August 23rd, 2012 at 8:02:17 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Several posts imply that both the players and the card manufacturer Gemaco are being sued.

Generally you want to sue everyone you can sue. By suing the Shuffling Company, an unknown female at the shuffling company and the known players the court can fashion a remedy against the deep pocketed Shuffling Company rather than merely declaring that some Immigrant Chinese Defendant has to forfeit his chips. The heavy handed security people are going to cost the casino alot of money and the casino wants to have Shuffling Company pay it.

More and more it looks as if it was indeed inadequate training and experience at the floor and pit levels. I question the tracking of some PreShuffled Deck through the casino's records into a specific shoe and then alerting the Chinese Gamblers. It may simply be the most amazing incidence of stupidity in a casino. The floor and pit really did not notice the card order. This boggles the mind but it seems to be the only solution for a "sorted order" wherein it was immediately obvious to the otherwise naive gamblers but unnoticed by the dealer or suits.

I look forward to more details from the pleadings rather than the imaginations of posters.

Meanwhile, would someone set up an eight deck shoe in original manufacturer's order and start dealing ... letting me know how many cards it takes to play out 41 hands. They went from ten dollar bettors to five grand apiece bettors quite promptly so it had to be that the gamblers realized right away what was amiss.
MakingBook
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August 23rd, 2012 at 8:13:58 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quite amazing! Dan cannot answer a simple question. I'll try again.

What would a pit boss answer to a customer if asked ... "Is it my (the customer) responsibility to alert you if I believe the deck was not shuffled properly, or can I use that information to play out the hand and win?"

I think the pit boss will start the answer with either a "Yes" or a "No". Which is it?



I'll set odds on Dan's reply.
Dan will answer SOOPOO's question with a yes/no +700
Dan will NOT answer SOOPOO's question with a yes/no -900
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
Doc
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August 23rd, 2012 at 8:44:16 PM permalink
Consider these possibilities:

(1) The cards were not in straight flush order.
(2) The casino employees were not in on a conspiracy and honestly did not see anything wrong with the way the cards were coming out. Yes, the table was bleeding money like crazy, but they didn't see evidence of anything improper going on with the game or the cards.
(3) The players were able to exploit a situation, because they either knew in advance or could figure out the sequence of cards, allowing them to know what the next set of hands would be.

To me, it seems possible, and perhaps even plausible, that the "pre-shuffling" process at the manufacturer might not be random. The cards might genuinely be mixed, but they might be mixed in exactly the same non-random way every time. If that were the case, either because of conspiracy between players and someone at the supplier or because of incompetence at the manufacturer and clever observation/analysis by players, then I think the scenario we have heard about could take place: players make a fortune from their bets while casino employees can't figure out for hours just what's going on.

Does that scenario sound plausible to anyone else, and is it compatible with the more reliable versions of info on the actual case(s)?

Suppose that were the case, and also suppose the variant that rather than a conspiracy/collusion with someone at the supplier, there was just incompetence in the planning of the pre-shuffling process. The players then observed the repeating pattern of cards between previous sessions with new decks and exploited it. Under these suppositions, would this be a criminal act on the players' parts? After all, the casino provided pencils and cards for them to record the cards and seemed to encourage them to analyze the card sequences. ;-)

I think this hypothetical version of the story is similar to the case of the person who figured out that the computerized keno game was using the same seed for its random number generator every morning, giving the exact same sequence of numbers each day. I don't remember how that case was resolved, other than fixing the computer programming.
reno
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August 23rd, 2012 at 9:10:06 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

while casino employees can't figure out for hours just what's going on.



Doc, I agree your scenario is plausible. But the Associated Press wrote: "The Golden Nugget said it flooded the area with floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance and security officers..." As Pacomartin asked: Why wouldn't the pit boss order the cards shuffled? Even if they hadn't figured out there was a pattern yet, it seems like shuffling cards is the easiest thing to do when you are having a really bad streak. Shuffling is cheap, fast, and effective: the "cheating" could have been stopped immediately.

Instead, the floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance, and security officers stood around and did nothing.
pacomartin
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August 23rd, 2012 at 9:29:41 PM permalink
Quote: reno

Even if they hadn't figured out there was a pattern yet, it seems like shuffling cards is the easiest thing to do when you are having a really bad streak. Shuffling is cheap, fast, and effective: the "cheating" could have been stopped immediately.

Instead, the floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance, and security officers stood around and did nothing.



In "Beat the Dealer" Edward O. Thorp describes the incredulity that the pit was having about his run of luck. Of course since no one knew about using computers to test card counting strategy (since he hadn't written the book) , they had no idea what he was doing.
Thorp says they were shuffling and shuffling to try and thwart him. It seems that fifty years ago, it was permissible to shuffle a portion of a deck in the middle of play. Naturally that had no effect on his card counting strategy, as only limiting the penetration would do that. He even tells one anecdote where he said to the dealer, "If I touch my nose, will you shuffle again?". He did touch his nose, and they did shuffle.


Of course, in the early 1960's the casino had other techniques to stop a streak, including intimidation, loading the table with dummy players, and even outright cheating on part of the casino. The gangster that was bankrolling Thorpe, was an important part of the team. He had enough savvy to tap Edward on the shoulder and say "time to leave this place".


My personal guess is that someone at the plant took 50 decks of cards, manually put them in a specific order, shrink wrapped them, and returned them to the plant and put them in a box earmarked for GN. Either he marked the decks, or there was someone on the inside at GN, or the players just milled about the casino betting small until they recognized the known sequence.

The safest way would be not to have any markings on the decks, but it would only work easily if the factory shipped a new box frequently (like every three days). Otherwise, they would have to have 14 guys hanging around the GN for weeks waiting for the cards to show up.

It is also possible that some innocent players benefited from the scam (even some that raised their bets). It wouldn't hurt the conspirators, and may even help them in their trial.
Pokeraddict
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August 23rd, 2012 at 10:03:56 PM permalink
Dan's posts are starting to concern me and make me think that he has no inside info and is just taking the casino side throwing some serious accusations at an entire crew from dealer to breaker to floor to eyes. Dan, can you please give specific proof of these accusations? They are very serious and many careers can be damaged from them.
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 10:36:36 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

Dan's posts are starting to concern me and make me think that he has no inside info and is just taking the casino side throwing some serious accusations at an entire crew from dealer to breaker to floor to eyes. Dan, can you please give specific proof of these accusations? They are very serious and many careers can be damaged from them.


Starting to concern you??
You know, pokeraddict, I've worked in this industry for years, and yeah, sure I think it looks very bad.
Serious accusations??!!
Threatening someone career?
I would say that it is some dealer AND floorman AND surveillance crew'a action of not noticing straight flush after straight flush while a live game dumps $1.5M that has threatened someone's career - and this hasn't a damn thing to do with my actions or opinions, - like I'm a judge or casino manager.
Never said I was a judge or casino manager.
I said I have an opinion, and I expressed it right here - on a BBS or forum, WTF.
But Yes, I will give an opinion, and not only do I think it all stinks - just too suspicious, but that yeah, such incompetence might cost someone their jobs, and if that happens, it's because of their own management of a live table game when money was on the line.

Now, let me say that the scenario that HIT THE PRESS should indeed start to concern some people in this industry. But what I or anyone else thinks about it doesn't mean squat to what the PRESS OF ATLANTIC CITY had already published - AMONG OTHER NEWS OUTLETS.

PokerAddict, don't be concerned about my opinions, who the hell am I -

but instead be concerned about what goes on on live table games, - and what gets public notice by the likes of Reuters, The Atlantic city press, The L.A. Times, and the New York Times.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Pokeraddict
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August 23rd, 2012 at 10:49:39 PM permalink
So you have no proof that employees were in on this? It seems the authorities do not either since nobody has been charged and certainly they have thoroughly investigated this by now. Your posts make anyone that reads them think otherwise.

Sure, this is an internet forum but you are a game inventor and apparently involved in the industry otherwise. You make very damaging accusations based on how you would have handled things if it were your game/casino. One thing that I have learned from years of writing on the gaming industry is that few are as well versed or as well trained as we all are. I am not saying that the dealers and others are innocent but it seems maybe you should wait until the facts are out and the case is settled/resolved before you make these types of accusations. There is a huge difference between being untrained/incompetent and being part of a massive insider scam.
FleaStiff
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August 23rd, 2012 at 11:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

It is also possible that some innocent players benefited from the scam (even some that raised their bets). It wouldn't hurt the conspirators, and may even help them in their trial.

One of the allegations is that some of the players immediately loaned money to other players so that the entire table could go to maximum 5,000 bets from their customary ten dollar bets.

Assuming an average of five cards per hand, 41 hands is about 200 cards. An eight deck shoe has 400 or so cards, so it appears likely that the shoe was about Half sorted and half shuffled which would correspond with the sudden and apparently unorganized response of the players and their differing residences in Jersey and New York.

I've emailed the attorney for the players and invited his commentary in the hopes that if he reveals what happens here he will not have to constantly deal with inquiries from curious gamblers nationwide.
Paigowdan
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August 23rd, 2012 at 11:30:45 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

So you have no proof that employees were in on this? It seems the authorities do not either since nobody has been charged and certainly they have thoroughly investigated this by now. Your posts make anyone that reads them think otherwise.

Sure, this is an internet forum but you are a game inventor and apparently involved in the industry otherwise. You make very damaging accusations based on how you would have handled things if it were your game/casino. One thing that I have learned from years of writing on the gaming industry is that few are as well versed or as well trained as we all are. I am not saying that the dealers and others are innocent but it seems maybe you should wait until the facts are out and the case is settled/resolved before you make these types of accusations. There is a huge difference between being untrained/incompetent and being part of a massive insider scam.



PokerAddict -
I'm very honored you feel I wield such Godly power over life and death - and some suit's livelihood prospects when he and his cronies may have blown a table game session at a New Jersey Casino.
I'm afraid I will have to refuse such weighty responsibility because:
- that whole mess has already been in the damn newspapers and Media;
- I was nowhere near the scene of the crime;-
- I don't think some shift manager or human resorces department from a casino in the great State of New Jersey is gonna say "Y'know, Jim, we really can't make a call on these guys - until we hear of course from "DAN FROM VEGAS!" (Naah...I really don't think so....)

And no, when I heard and read that essentially a 200-card straight flush came out of a Baccarat shoe on a live game, and a few Players knew exactly how to optimally bet that shoe as well as manage their bankroll, - my opinion was "the fix" was in. I'm entitled to it, I think it is commonly shared, and that's the whole of the matter.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
98Clubs
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August 24th, 2012 at 3:15:52 AM permalink
After 18 pages, and two threads about unshuffled cards, I can't read every post, but NO ONE inspected the deck with a fanout to check the integrity of the cards? I have witness many shoes of Blackjack over the years I played, Granted, these were the "normal" unshuffled decks that were fanned, rotated, fanned, flipped over, fanned, rotated, fanned, and flipped... Each deck front and back to look for marks imperfections, a six of spades with an 8 pip ;o) etc.

Obviously, with "pre-shuffled" cards, there is no need to INSPECT them, or witness them?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 3:55:44 AM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

Obviously, with "pre-shuffled" cards, there is no need to INSPECT them, or witness them?


With ALL cards that go onto a live money table game, there is a need to inspect the cards.


Always.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RonC
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August 24th, 2012 at 4:15:09 AM permalink
Rather than this being a huge conspiracy starting at the factory, participated in by 3 or more casino employees, and with cohorts playing the game, I wonder if it is just penny-pinching on the case of the casino and stupidity in the case of the floor folks. Sure, the casino is claiming everyone is in on it...we'll see if they can prove it!!

If there was a "gang" of folks committing a crime and they were experienced gamblers, wouldn't you think they'd want to make sure their crime did not bring undo attention?

Any time a table starts "dumping" in a casino, suits appear out of nowhere...they would have all had to be in on it, too. It would take only one "outsider" to stop the whole thing.

I could be proven wrong, but I think you have an incredibly stupid policy that caught them with their pants down. They put cards in play and the players made their bets. Unless the players specifically knew that it was an unshuffled deck (part of the conspiracy), who cares that they played the cards dealt to them and ended up winning?

Again, if there is a gazillion to one chance that a shuffled deck (or 8) could end up in a particular order, how would the players have known if it was a bad deck or just good fortune?
FleaStiff
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:01:06 AM permalink
The most logical conclusion is that a PreShuffled Card Set was in fact only about "half" preshuffled, the remainder being in original 2-K order and the players realized it immediately whereas all casino personnel were and remained oblivious to it.
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:10:49 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Rather than this being a huge conspiracy starting at the factory, participated in by 3 or more casino employees, and with cohorts playing the game, I wonder if it is just penny-pinching on the case of the casino and stupidity in the case of the floor folks. Sure, the casino is claiming everyone is in on it...we'll see if they can prove it!!


Good point, but the arguments presented were on the troubling and nagging points of:
1. Floor personnel not even giving a cursory glance at the decks before dropping these decks onto a live money game, where the dealer neither examined them either, or shuffled them up, but just dropped them straight-away into the dealing shoe, resulting in....
2. A very obvious "Can't Miss" streak of straight flushes that was also strangely missed/ignored by the dealers and the floor supervision who were on top of the game, while -
3. The bizarre streak of stright flushes were obviously NOT missed by the players; now they saw that, and
4. These players then deliberately positioned their bets between banker, player, and tie, time after time with the flawless accuracy to the point that they were like a Olympic synchronized swim team or the Bolshoi Ballet; that was so uncanny it was astonding. Of course this may have been simple luck or ESP, resulting in a....
5. A table loss of $1.5M in about 2 hours and 40 minutes, a typical session playing time length.

Coincidence? I think not, but like I said, let's assume for a minute here that it was just a perfect storm of temporary incompetency or blindness on the part of casino staff...

Quote: RonC

If there was a "gang" of folks committing a crime and they were experienced gamblers, wouldn't you think they'd want to make sure their crime did not bring undo attention?


Yeah, they would have hoped so, if guilty....and I also think that they all would have thought that all this would NOT have hit the papers...until it had hit the papers, that is, if there is a conspiracy.

Quote: RonC

Any time a table starts "dumping" in a casino, suits appear out of nowhere...they would have all had to be in on it, too. It would take only one "outsider" to stop the whole thing.


Good point, and yet another troubling point.

Quote: RonC

I could be proven wrong, but I think you have an incredibly stupid policy that caught them with their pants down.


That much is undeniable. I would assume that the pre-shuffled cards would be a harder sell, now, too. But it was all the subsequent "red lights" that were plowed through with oblivious abandon that are troubling flags.

Quote: RonC

They put cards in play and the players made their bets. Unless the players specifically knew that it was an unshuffled deck (part of the conspiracy), who cares that they played the cards dealt to them and ended up winning?


Right. But the players had their bets perfectly synchronized to how the deck was (inadvertently or advertently) stacked, - which kind of indicates that the players "specifically knew" what the "deal" was. Kind of hard to deny. In fact, it is possible for a mathematician to calculate exactly how likely, statistically, a random betting would match to how the cards came out. Was their betting pattern within two S.D.'s of a random pattern? Three S.D's? Four?

Quote: RonC

Again, if there is a gazillion to one chance that a shuffled deck (or 8) could end up in a particular order, how would the players have known if it was a bad deck or just good fortune?


Right, very good point! "A gazillion to one," as you say, might relate to reasonable doubt. When we consider that a DNA match of 99.99% can convict a rapist "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is a lot less than a gazillion to one, - at ten thousand to one, - then if a "statistical analysis match" of their betting patterns to the stacked order of a shoe (as per the surveillance tape) - indicates within a 99.99% certainty that they knew exactly how to play that stacked deck...then you may have the answer, within a reasonable doubt, (>99% certainty) that they knew exactly how to play that stacked deck's order, to pull out One-Million-Five out of a gaming table.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:18:11 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

With ALL cards that go onto a live money table game, there is a need to inspect the cards.


Always.

Dan -

With all due respect, we're talking about big table Baccarat here. Have you ever dealt big table Baccarat?

It's a game where players often handle, or more accurately man-handle, the cards to the point of destroying them. As such, the card supplier provides packs of 8 decks, certified pre-shuffled.

To fan them out, would require that they then be shuffled again. And what's the point of fanning them? To check that they are all there? If they are pre-shuffled, that becomes impossible.


I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong here. But I think it would be a good idea if the next time you're in a big casino, go to the Baccarat pit, and ask the floorman about this.

I'd also ask the card vendors when at G2E.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:30:04 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Dan -

With all due respect, we're talking about big table Baccarat here. Have you ever dealt big table Baccarat?

It's a game where players often handle, or more accurately man-handle, the cards to the point of destroying them. As such, the card supplier provides packs of 8 decks, certified pre-shuffled.

To fan them out, would require that they then be shuffled again. And what's the point of fanning them? To check that they are all there? If they are pre-shuffled, that becomes impossible.


I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong here. But I think it would be a good idea if the next time you're in a big casino, go to the Baccarat pit, and ask the floorman about this.

I'd also ask the card vendors when at G2E.



Dave, with all due respect, we're talking about:
1. a floorman taking a second to see if the cards are ordered while they are in his hand, (reading the deck like a Pai Gow Poker hand for a moment). No need to Fan anything out on the table or shuffle, if they are not factory-sorted instead of random. EVERY floorman I have ever seen looks are the cards in his hand to see if they are ordered, or even if they are Tarot cards, before dropping them onto a live table for the dealer to then use on the game.
2. Even if the cards appear shuffled, they could come from the factory stacked, - or even not from the factory. You can BUY a celophane shrink-wrap machine and reseal a stacked deck of cards, and hand them off to a floorman friend with an "envelope". Now this is possible. For this door to remain open is insane.
3. Aside from the cards' integrity, the players' synchronized betting pattern - in exactly matching the stacked decks order - was uncanny. The players even admit to knowing that they were ordered. CBS Philadelphia Affiliate News.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:37:23 AM permalink
Dan -

It's an EIGHT deck package.

The idea of a floorman giving them a "quick look" in his hands, invites all kinds of other problems.

But you may be right.

I'll defer this part of the argument until after I talk to a floorman in a Baccarat pit.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
pacomartin
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:48:31 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Aside from the cards' integrity, the players' synchronized betting pattern - in exactly matching the stacked decks order - was uncanny. The players even admit to knowing that they were ordered. CBS Philadelphia Affiliate News.



According to a statement from the Golden Nugget, “The gamblers unlawfully took advantage of the Golden Nugget when they caught onto the pattern and increased their bets from table minimums to table maximums and by placing bets for others.”

It is interesting phrasing. It is possible that the lawyers from GN felt that they should sue for "catching on to a pattern" because it would be difficult to prove that they knew the pattern beforehand. They may feel that they have legal precedent without the need to prove conspiracy.
heather
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:51:21 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Dan -

With all due respect, we're talking about big table Baccarat here.



I thought we were talking about mini-Bacc. It was definitely mini-Bacc in AC. Does the Golden Nugget even have big table? (I was travelling last week and might have missed some stuff.)

I've seen the big table shuffle done sometimes at midi, but only once at mini-Bacc (and found it hilarious). With the whole idea behind mini-Bacc being to speed up the game, it would make perfect sense to be able to have cards already shuffled and ready to go. I've never seen a CSM at one, but I've only played mini-Bacc when nothing larger was open, or available.

I couldn't see this happening at a big table because the players would all get upset if you didn't do the full shuffle. They'd feel like they were being robbed of one of the things that they're paying for at those minimums.
DJTeddyBear
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August 24th, 2012 at 5:56:01 AM permalink
Oops. My error - maybe.


Do players touch / mangle the cards in Mini-Bacc? Or at the Mini-Bacc at the Golden Nugget AC?

If so, then it's the same thing.

If not, then I wonder why they are using pre-shuffled cards. But if they are, then it's the same thing.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
heather
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:03:17 AM permalink
Harrah's AC has the only mini-Bacc table I've ever seen where players could touch the cards. Mini-Bacc is normally dealt like Blackjack. Hence my guess that the unshuffled cards might have gone to the wrong kind of Baccarat table, making it an error on the casino's part. Just a guess, though.
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:08:36 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Quote: Paigowdan

Aside from the cards' integrity, the players' synchronized betting pattern - in exactly matching the stacked decks order - was uncanny. The players even admit to knowing that they were ordered. CBS Philadelphia Affiliate News.



According to a statement from the Golden Nugget, “The gamblers unlawfully took advantage of the Golden Nugget when they caught onto the pattern and increased their bets from table minimums to table maximums and by placing bets for others.”

It is interesting phrasing. It is possible that the lawyers from GN felt that they should sue for "catching on to a pattern" because it would be difficult to prove that they knew the pattern beforehand. They may feel that they have legal precedent without the need to prove conspiracy.


"Discovering" that a deck is stacked (thereby knowing full well it's a stacked deck), and then using that info...
may be very similar to going into a game on that premise. I think the lawyers may argue: "if you know it's a stacked deck AND you are using that information" you're guilty of wrong doing, it doesn't have to be pre-meditated; "opportunistic" crimes are about as serious as premeditated crimes.

It's kind of hard to say "I'm innocent because I commited this act in an opportunistic fashion, and not in a premeditated fashion." (like "oh, that's different, that makes it okay...)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
24Bingo
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:16:42 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

3. Aside from the cards' integrity, the players' synchronized betting pattern - in exactly matching the stacked decks order - was uncanny. The players even admit to knowing that they were ordered. CBS Philadelphia Affiliate News.



"Uncanny"? Why do you keep acting like it's somehow news to anyone that the players weren't just randomly making the all the right bets? No one has said that they weren't making bets according to the cards they expected, according to the pattern they observed. The only question is whether, if they thought this was human error and not deliberate stacking, their winnings gained by this technique were legal, and to a lesser extent whether they did think that.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
FleaStiff
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:27:43 AM permalink
Gonna be quite interesting hearing how the lawyers admit the players caught on right away but the dealer and all the supervisory personnel did not.
RonC
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:33:43 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Gonna be quite interesting hearing how the lawyers admit the players caught on right away but the dealer and all the supervisory personnel did not.



"My clients are complete idiots; the defendants should have realized this and told them that they were idiots."
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 6:42:21 AM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

Quote: Paigowdan

3. Aside from the cards' integrity, the players' synchronized betting pattern - in exactly matching the stacked decks order - was uncanny. The players even admit to knowing that they were ordered. CBS Philadelphia Affiliate News.



"Uncanny"? Why do you keep acting like it's somehow news to anyone that the players weren't just randomly making the all the right bets?


Amazing! "Randomly making all the right bets" - GREAT quote, by the way - is what gambling is all about, but the "randomness" is clearly in question on this one - AND for the tune of $1,500,000 in 2 hours and 40 minutes - on a stacked deck! No, it was not random!

Yes, it indeed sound like they were knowlingly "making all the right bets," - but it ain't random if you know what cards are going to come out, now is it?!

Like I said, a simple statistical analysis can determine the true randomness of their betting patterns as to how it matched the deck's known ordering! One standard deviation? Two?..... 99.99% ?

Quote: 24Bingo

No one has said that they weren't making bets according to the cards they expected,



And they got exactly the cards they expected at full table max bets! - which makes it NON-random, now, - doesn't it?

Quote: 24Bingo

....according to the pattern they observed.


- which was a non-random pattern of relentless straight flushes of all things - that allowed them to make non-random, fully anticipated bets!

Quote: 24Bingo

The only question is whether, if they thought this was human error and not deliberate stacking, -



How does that matter? It doesn't matter if the deck was "inadvertently" stacked or "deliberately stacked" - it matters if it WAS stacked. AND it doesn't matter who stacked the deck.

Quote: 24Bingo

[as to] their winnings gained by this technique were legal, and to a lesser extent whether they did think that.


The legality of capitalizing on a stacked will be examined in this case, I assume.

And as to whether "they did think that [this is all good and legal]," is another of an argument that relates to "ignorance of the law as an excuse to get away with having broken the law." The old "I didn't know that THAT was illegal - so that gets me off the hook, - right?"

No.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
reno
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August 24th, 2012 at 7:53:59 AM permalink
At the end of the day, I really feel that the morality and legality of this case comes down to one simple issue: did the players have an insider at the card factory in Kansas City. If they did, they committed a crime.

But if they didn't have any inside information, they didn't do anything wrong. The casino provided them with pencils and paper to track patterns. The gamblers tracked the patterns and betted accordingly.

The customer is not legally or morally responsible for a business' quality control. Apparently Gemaco has crappy quality control. The customer is not legally or morally responsible for the Golden Nugget's decision to outsource their shuffling to a 3rd party with crappy quality control. And if it's so important to Golden Nugget that the decks are thoroughly shuffled, they should do it in-house.
FleaStiff
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August 24th, 2012 at 8:07:06 AM permalink
New dealer, drunk dealer, exhausted dealer, distracted dealer... whatever...
The casino provided the game and the "shuffled" cards. I'd put the burden on the casino to set the game up properly so as to make an attempt to make it a "game" between the casino and the players, but the burden is on the casino.

Gamco's quality control doesn't seem to really exist. I doubt anyone tracked anything... some players just got lucky and a whole host of supervisors have been shown up as utter dolts. The GN can put the dealer's game protection certificates in the toilet paper dispenser so they get put to an appropriate use.

No need to dance through the morality maze... we've all established our morality levels. Some dice dealers short stick every female in sight; some dice dealers don't short stick any female ever. Some players speak up at a misdeal and some do not.
It will be interesting to hear what the court does in light of the NJ statute for each party to be at risk, but in reality it won't make much difference.
JB
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August 24th, 2012 at 2:44:04 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Again, if there is a gazillion to one chance that a shuffled deck (or 8) could end up in a particular order, how would the players have known if it was a bad deck or just good fortune?


You bring up a very good point.

In reality, if the decks are truly shuffled randomly, there should and will be cases (rare as they may be) where the cards appear to a human to be unshuffled.

If the certification process involves rejecting decks which "don't look shuffled enough", then pre-shuffled cards are not random and should not be used.

However, if this isn't done, then the card manufacturer is certifying some decks that will result in a big loss for their client, inviting lawsuits like this one from shuffled decks which "appeared" not to be. (I'm not saying that was the case here; I'm talking about the bigger picture.)

All of this could be avoided by simply having the dealer thoroughly shuffle the cards at the table before putting them into play.
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2012 at 2:57:50 PM permalink
Gemaco's quality is generally very high. A horrible one-off thing - if it were them.

Players didn't get "Lucky," - that is exactly the point. It's clear that it is statistically impossible (>99.99%) that the players didn't track the shoe.

Yes, we have all established and presented our own morality levels.

Every Table Games Director must consider that NO DECK is "certified for live game use" unless the decks are fanned on the table for their surveillance crew's review, and shuffled on the game - before use.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RonC
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August 24th, 2012 at 3:15:06 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's clear that it is statistically impossible (>99.99%) that the players didn't track the shoe.



Don't players track the shoe all the time?
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