Here We Go Again: Unshuffled Baccarat at Golden Nugget AC...
Quote: PaigowdanPossible Collusion??
Now this is EXACTLY where I have the problem....dealers are paid to see patterns in cards on a table instantly..as second-nature..as a robot to the point where you cannot helped but to always see it and cannot miss it...flushes, straights, etc....we do it eight hours a day, 5 days a week, 49 or 50 weeks out of the year on end.
Dealers will notice if the time on the clock just happens to be 11:11PM - they'll think - "shoot, four Aces..." - See a License Plate of "XJR 756" while driving to Walmart? - "three-card poker straight pays 6:1...." A phone Number of 983-8918? - they'll think Pai Gow Poker: "Split the full house, play it as 99/88831..." etc., - and this is just walking down the street.
When I play Baccarat, and see a five-card simple flush perhaps twice in five hands, I'll notice that that's rare, just waiting for my wife to finish her slot play so we can hit the movies....
For experienced and veteran Atlantic City Dealers and Floormen - who can spot a mis-set Pai Gow Poker hand from 20 feet away while tracking five other tables - to NOT notice that a Bac table is pumping out Royal after Royal after straight flush combos from an eight deck shoe through at least 41 rounds or so...- while hemorrhaging cash at the rate of $500,000 an hour (the $1.5M in that three hour) - on a full table with other experienced gamblers - is something I am simply incredulous about. And that this was not spotted after 24 hours, AND that it previously happened in the same gambling city of Atlantic City - and to great fanfare in the press?
There are many people in the gaming industry, and most of them may tell you honestly that something of this peculiar magnitude simple cannot happen without payoffs being involved, or else they may say to you, "Don't know, and I don't wanna know..."
Nobody in this industry who is legit buys this story, especially if they know statistics. 10^38.
I don't think this was above board, but it doesn't matter what I think, only what they, at the time, thought. If any one of the players honestly thought that this was a simple failure to shuffle, that player was within their rights to take advantage, and is within their rights to keep the money. (...what's 10^38? The odds of this happening on a correctly shuffled deck are much worse than that, and the odds of a deck getting in without a shuffle aren't that easy to quantify... is that the odds of a downswing this large in general?)
Quote: PaigowdanDoesn't matter who the hell stacked the deck. Matters if you played the deck and that you knew that it was stacked, and then took the cash knowing what the deal was. And you say, "Oh, It's okay for them to keep this money.."??!! - At least two people knew, I think, - the dealer and the player, that is of course, - if in such circumstances.
If you know the deck was deliberately stacked, it doesn't matter who stacked it, no. But it does matter that you know it was stacked - that the money was genuinely dirty - and not simply SNAFU'd.
Quote: PaigowdanThat is assuming it was an accident, first of all. All exceedingly dubious to anyone within six Astromincal Units of the gaming industry.
It's only assuming they thought it to be an accident.
Quote: PaigowdanI mean, one can argue that the players had to have known, having to deliberately and calculatingly shift their bets between Player, Banker, and Tie to profit so massively. Certainly, if the players were playing randomly, and not mathematically, then they would not have profited from a set up shoe...falsify this one....
Of course they weren't betting randomly! But it's been upheld many times, at least in Nevada, that the players are entitled to take advantage of errors on the part of the house.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, but then of course the players didn't know which cards were coming out of the shoe, in those cases. Simple misplays, in those cases.
Now, in this casino case, there didn't seem to be any "player misplays" here, so to speak.
The misplay was failing to shuffle, was my point. Since the shuffle is the house's responsibility, any players who thought it was a legitimate error (whether it was or not) were within their rights to take advantage of this house misplay.
Quote: PaigowdanYou and your crew make One-Million-Five is less than three hours on a Bac table, you and your crew did quite well, arguably no misplays as far as the table action was concerned, quite different.
The only misplays involve the fallout we're now discussing, if you want to look at it like that...
...it didn't even register that my reference to player error wasn't actually a reference to player error, did it?
Quote: PaigowdanI mean, one can argue that the players had to have known, having to deliberately and calculatingly shift their bets between Player, Banker, and Tie to profit so massively. Certainly, if the players were playing randomly, and not mathematically, then they would not have profited from a set up shoe...falsify this one....
So.
What choice did they have? Close their eyes and bet blindly? Leave the casino?
When a wad of cash grows legs and walks into your wallet, you don't take the first stick you see and shoo it off.
I find it unlikely that this was a pure incident. I also find it unlikely that it was pulled by a massive Ocean's 19 - so not all of the players were team members, some just stumbled across it. Casinos and law enforcement should go after the conspiracy.
Quote: SanchoPanzaYou don't have to. Pencil and special cards are at the tables.
This would be my defense.
"The casino encouraged me to count the cards by providing me with the means to do it and welcoming it. It is part of the game. When I detected my <insert baccarat system> pattern I raised my bet and won. The fact the cards came out a certain way could possibly happen mathematically. If detecting patterns is such a problem, why do they provide me with the means to do it? They don't let me do that at blackjack. I believe the casino is trying to get out of paying me by using this excuse."
If it turns out that every player at the table knew a bad deck got slipped in and the dealers, floor, surveillance, and security were all in on it with every player then I can agree they don't owe it but I have a feeling there is at least one innocent party here. The card company seems to admit these decks got sent unshuffled. Perhaps they were told to say that. Have any other decks turned up anywhere else? If a player slipped this deck in before the game started wouldn't that be picked up somewhere on camera? It would not be easy to quick switch 8 decks of cards.
Are some saying that this group knew that this particular deck would show up at this casino and they had been scoping GN out for months or even years waiting for this deck to magically show up even though no other unshuffled decks have appeared to our knowledge? This must have been the first one at GN or else they would have been extra vigilant about checking them or even discarding all of this series.
It seems like there is at least some possibility these players stumbled upon it by luck, even a great possibility. Obvious the dealers were morons and the floors asleep, eye in the sky too. They should all be fired. Unless GN can clearly prove a connection between all of these players, the card company, and multiple levels of GN employees then I think they are in for trouble. If that is the case, why have the players and GN employees not been charged?
This whole thing is also a PR nightmare. The GN FB accts in Las Vegas and AC got slammed with people trashing them to the point that they now have a T&C where one of the terms is you cannot discuss pending litigation on their board. They deleted a bunch of posts and it seems maybe banned some people. Several of the new 20 terms give them that right. I have never seen T&Cs posted for a public FB page. What a social media fail.
1) It is ludicrous to believe that "unshuffled" deck meant that they were in perfect order by value and suit. Anyone could detect that.
2) It sounds like collusion linked to the deck manufacturer.
3) While some employee at the GN could have been in on the scam, it is not absolutely necessary. If the plant at the manufacturer knew the rate at which new cards were sent, he could let the colleagues know when the decks would appear, to within a day. They just needed to watch over the decks until the patterns began to appear.
4) Why wouldn't the pit boss order the cards shuffled? Even if they hadn't figured out there was a pattern yet, it seems like shuffling cards is the easiest thing to do when you are having a really bad streak.
5) I assume the players were winning "tie" bets. How else could they have won so much money so fast.
Quote: EvenBobIf you start with the premise that this is a cheat, the
answer is obvious. The dealer, a pit guy and at least
one player slipped an unshuffled deck into the shoe
and blamed it on the card company. The most obvious
answer is usually the right one.
This makes NO SENSE. If you could slip a deck in, you would NOT slip in a totally unshuffled deck. You would slip in a deck that YOU know the exact sequence of cards, thus YOU would be able to know the pre-determined outcomes but the sequence of cards should not alert anyone.
Maybe I missed it but....
1. How much was tipped during this 'run of good luck'?
2. Did the players lose a single hand, or win them all?
The answer to this is simple to me. If there was collusion in getting that unshuffled deck into play, then all who KNOWINGLY took advantage of that fact are criminals. Those, if any, who noticed a pattern and took advantage of it, are legally entitled to their winnings. Whether they are ethically entitled, well, that's where Dan and I can disagree.....
One interesting point here is that many AP players are always trying to stay under the radar and avoid 'heat'. It seems like these guys brought matches, kerosene, NTG, etc... I once sat down at a BJ table, now 30 years ago, and the flamboyant dealer was showing almost every hole card. I made some basic strategy 'errors', like standing on 15 against a king (when I knew his undercard was a 6), but I wouldn't hit 18 against a 20. It was a $5 table, and I made maybe $30 in an hour. I don't think that the pit boss was afraid of me....
Hello, sir- If I notice that the dealer is dealing a deck that I believe to be improperly shuffled, is it my RESPONSIBILITY to ask the dealer to immediately stop play? Or may I be allowed to complete the hand using this knowledge to my advantage?
Quote: pacomartin5) I assume the players were winning "tie" bets. How else could they have won so much money so fast.
They were betting the maximum... if you saw you were guaranteed a win, wouldn't you put up everything you had? (Besides, isn't the maximum for a tie typically 1/8 the normal max, so the payout is the same?) And are you sure there aren't any ties in a run?
Although SOOPOO has an interesting point - if this was a scam, why leave the deck unshuffled? Why not put it in an order harder to detect?
Quote: SOOPOOThis makes NO SENSE. If you could slip a deck in, you would NOT slip in a totally unshuffled deck. You would slip in a deck that YOU know the exact sequence of cards, thus YOU would be able to know the pre-determined outcomes but the sequence of cards should not alert anyone.
Right! Now wouldn't that be something?! This protocol of using "pre-shuffled" decks seems like trouble waiting to happen in one form or another: if I ran a casino, I wouldn't be comfortable with it...
With regard to the "big conspiracy" theories put forth, while I agree having a few people collude may have been possible, I don't feel it's at all likely that a large number of people where involved. Earlier in the thread someone put forth a figure of a 75k cut- which doesn't seem high enough to risk jail and your jobs. Yes, people commit crime for less than that figure all of the time, but they have a chance of getting away "scott free"- not ever a chance in this scenario. Doesn't seem worth it- and no one could know when the party would end- which is something I don't know if I've seen the answer to: How did all of this end? Was the table shut down or did everyone just walk away? Who shut down the table?
Over the period, you would have had relief dealers, too, no?
Mind you, Atlantic City casinos are mandated to require equitable odds, which is going to be Tilman’s primary line of defense against the 14 plaintiffs he’s stiffing. However, it would be an entirely reasonable conclusion that aforesaid New Jersey law presumes at least a pretense of due diligence on the casino’s part, not just making it up on the fly. The court system should kick Tilman’s patootie all the way to Camden. His security force also stands accused of having taken a page from one of the worst Vegas traditions, having allegedly put a beat-down on several of the winning players.
....
Dan I fell on the floor from laughing after I read this.
I would say most are EXTREMELY weak with a few that are sharp. I don`t have enough time to list all the mistakes and errors that I see being made everytime I`m in Atlantic city.
Just a few recent ones. Player colors in 775 is paid 975 and approved by floor.
dealer has a flush in Ultimate and doesn`t see it pays off the whole table
Dealer on Mississippi stud tells floor I`m new at this game,floor says don`t worry it`s easy
dealer then pays all the winning hands and pushes all the other hands never picking up any losing bets.this went on for 5 or 6 hands before the relief floor noticed it.This was all in one day.
Quote: pacomartin4) Why wouldn't the pit boss order the cards shuffled? Even if they hadn't figured out there was a pattern yet, it seems like shuffling cards is the easiest thing to do when you are having a really bad streak.
This is a very very good question. Anyone got any theories? If the pit boss was in on the collusion, why risk his job & possible jailtime for $75,000? Nothing about this case makes sense.
Quote: FleaStiffIf the pit boss has already been told that preshuffled shoes are the best there is then why would he impair that on his own authority?
Because there was another widely publicized unshuffled deck fiasco at a different Atlantic City casino a few months prior to the Golden Nugget incident.
Quote: Hunterhill
Just a few recent ones. Player colors in 775 is paid 975 and approved by floor.
I spent an evening (4-5 hours) playing Roulette. I bought in and said I wanted my chips to be $2. Dealer breaks and shift changes and rotations happened while I was playing, and the whole time I was drinking rum and ginger ale. I get ready to go and exchange my chips and go to the cage and cash out and get a cab back to where I'm staying and go to bed. Next morning I'm looking at the cash in my purse and I'm thinking that there's way too much there. Like $2-3K more than I should have. I eventually figure out that the dealer who exchanged my chips when I left the Roulette table must have paid me as though my chips had been worth $5.
My thoughts on the pre-shuffled cards (which I'd never heard of before, either) is that they must be intended as a time-saving measure. Maybe they use unshuffled decks for higher-limit games where they do the traditional shuffle (which I've seen done at both midi and mini tables) and got which kind of Baccarat table the cards were supposed to go to mixed up. But that's just a guess.
I'm also confused about why it took three hours to get less than all the way through the shoe. One of the articles said that none of the players were even using their scorecards (or am I mixing up the two incidents?). So why did it take so long? It was a mini table, so they weren't passing the shoe around. Although, I'll admit that I've occasionally seen mini tables where you could bend the cards -- was it like that at the table where this happened?
Quote: FleaStiffIf the pit boss has already been told that preshuffled shoes are the best there is then why would he impair that on his own authority?
Because it would be due diligence. Heck, we check our decks and given them a good shuffle for our weekly penny-ante poker game. Maybe Landry is just too big time to do what us small fry do regularly.
Quote: PokeraddictThis whole thing is also a PR nightmare. The GN FB accts in Las Vegas and AC got slammed with people trashing them to the point that they now have a T&C where one of the terms is you cannot discuss pending litigation on their board. They deleted a bunch of posts and it seems maybe banned some people. Several of the new 20 terms give them that right. I have never seen T&Cs posted for a public FB page. What a social media fail.
It is a lot more than that. It is worthy of at least a hefty fine from the state, even license suspension or revocation. But we know that the state won't mess with that, considering the condition of the industry.
Quote: P90
When a wad of cash grows legs and walks into your wallet, you don't take the first stick you see and shoo it off.
This should be your signature!
Quote: PaigowdanFor experienced and veteran Atlantic City Dealers and Floormen - who can spot a mis-set Pai Gow Poker hand from 20 feet away while tracking five other tables - to NOT notice that a Bac table is pumping out Royal after Royal after straight flush combos from an eight deck shoe through at least 41 rounds or so...- while hemorrhaging cash at the rate of $500,000 an hour (the $1.5M in that three hour) - on a full table with other experienced gamblers - is something I am simply incredulous about. And that this was not spotted after 24 hours, AND that it previously happened in the same gambling city of Atlantic City - and to great fanfare in the press?
Don't count on anyone in AC learning from experience. It is a place where a couple of months ago a guy argued with a a Canadian tourist and shot her dead at Bally's main entrance, all under the surveillance of a police car supposedly standing watch. And just last week a serial rapist who worked for the nearby F.A.A. tech center was tracked as he lured a victim into his van and raped her, also all under police surveillance. The police moved in after she fled the van screaming. acpress
Then we have this typical weekend:
Posted: Monday, August 20, 2012 6:02 pm | Updated: 7:17 am, Tue Aug 21, 2012.
By DAVID SIMPSON Staff Writer
Police arrested an Atlantic City man on Sunday and charged him with snatching purses in three casinos, police said. On Sunday, Michael Brown, 48, allegedly used a jacket to hide the removal of a purse from a pile of luggage at the Showboat Casino Hotel lobby. The purse belonged to an 80-year-old woman who was staying at the Showboat with her sister-in-law, police said. Brown was observed taking the luggage and a Showboat security officer detained him until police arrived, according to a police release.
An investigation by Detective David Smith led to more charges. On Aug. 15, a 75-year-old woman at the Tropicana Casino and Resort reported that her wallet was taken from her purse. Allegedly, Brown bumped into the woman and was last seen running on Brighton Avenue.
On Aug. 14, a surveillance video in the Borgata Hotel Casino lobby shows man taking a purse from a 58-year-old woman's wheelchair. The suspect is seen changing his shirt as he flees the building.
acpress
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Posted: Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:03 am | Updated: 6:25 pm, Sat Aug 18, 2012.
By TRUDI GILFILLIAN Staff Writer
A parking lot attendant was robbed Friday night and the search for a suspect continued Saturday, police said. A cashier at the Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa’s surface parking lot was robbed around 11:15 p.m., police said.
A man approached the cashier, “gestured that he had a weapon” and demanded money, according to police reports. The man took $500 and then walked away towards Harrah’s Resort.
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Posted: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:19 pm | Updated: 8:00 pm, Sat Aug 18, 2012.
By LYNDA COHEN, Staff Writer
Three women on their way to work at the Golden Nugget casino this morning were robbed at gunpoint, police said. The women are from Turkey and are working in Atlantic City for the summer, Sgt. Monica McMenamin said. They told police they live on Wabash Avenue and walk the route to work every day.
As they were on the 800 block of North Maryland Avenue at about 8:20 a.m., two men came up behind them. One of the women said a man pointed a handgun at her and she gave him her purse, according to the report. Inside was a cell phone, credit card and cash.
----
Posted: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:56 am | Updated: 8:23 am, Mon Aug 20, 2012.
By LYNDA COHEN Staff Writer
Firefighters returning to their truck after a call at the Tropicana Sunday morning found it was no longer there. Crews arrived at the casino at 3:20 a.m. for a report of people trapped in an elevator, police Lt. Dan Ritzel said. They parked on Brighton Avenue by the bus terminal, and went up to the 31st floor. After freeing the trapped patrons, they came back to find the truck wasn't there, Ritzel said.
They called security, and about 15 to 20 minutes later, found the truck parked in the North Tower valet area, Ritzel said. A check of security cameras found no video of the area where the truck had been.
Is it any wonder Revel is pleading for yet more bucks to stay open next year as Moody's downgrades it.
Quote: SOOPOODan- if I asked your pit boss, or floor supervisor, or whatever you call him, this question, what would his answer be?
Hello, sir- If I notice that the dealer is dealing a deck that I believe to be improperly shuffled, is it my RESPONSIBILITY to ask the dealer to immediately stop play? Or may I be allowed to complete the hand using this knowledge to my advantage?
SOOPOO, if I spot a serious problem on the floor, it is my responsibility to alert floor supervision ASAP.
Once notified, floor supervision takes appropriate action.
Quote: P90So.
What choice did they have? Close their eyes and bet blindly? Leave the casino?
If I'm at a table, I might say one of the following:
"Dealer, this deck is stacked; call the floor before someone calls Gaming." Pointing out the OBVIOUS straight flushes - might help make them obvious and undeniable.
Putting an orange Hotel room key flat on the middle of the table and making a "waving off" sign might also get Surveillance's or the floorman's attention, where the obvious problem can be clearly pointed out.
I have pointed out mispays and hand mis-sets by the dealer - in BOTH directions. When someone complained that they would have wanted to get the dirty money, I point that out too, and tell them to stick-up a 7-11. If I'm at a table where my money is on the line, I want to see a clean game. And people can understand that.
No apologies for expecting - and insisting on - a clean game on a table that I am at with cash on the line - and gaming statutes to follow. Some of us have gaming licenses to protect.
Quote: P90When a wad of cash grows legs and walks into your wallet, you don't take the first stick you see and shoo it off.
Some people might stop for a moment, - and actually question how the ill-gotten cash was obtained.
If a person is the kind of guy who'll take money from a bank robbery, or from fenced stolen goods, for that matter, there's little you can do about their attitudes. Dirty money is simply that. It's well enough that I know what it is.
Quote: P90I find it unlikely that this was a pure incident. I also find it unlikely that it was pulled by a massive Ocean's 19 - so not all of the players were team members, some just stumbled across it. Casinos and law enforcement should go after the conspiracy.
Yes! If there was a criminal conspiracy involved in this matter, may it be persued...
Quote: Hunterhill"Atlantic city dealers and floormen are generally EXTREMELY sharp"
Dan I fell on the floor from laughing after I read this.
I would say most are EXTREMELY weak with a few that are sharp. I don`t have enough time to list all the mistakes and errors that I see being made everytime I`m in Atlantic city.
Not from what I've seen. Many were extremely decent and sharp.
Quote: HunterhillJust a few recent ones. Player colors in 775 is paid 975 and approved by floor.
dealer has a flush in Ultimate and doesn`t see it pays off the whole table
Dealer on Mississippi stud tells floor I`m new at this game,floor says don`t worry it`s easy
dealer then pays all the winning hands and pushes all the other hands never picking up any losing bets.this went on for 5 or 6 hands before the relief floor noticed it.This was all in one day.
People make little mistakes here and there, yes.
Break-in dealers on a carnival game is one example you give, and a color-up mistake of $200 was another.
This situation was on a Bac table, for really big money. It was over One Million Dollars.
Not a break-in scenario here.
The shenanigans surrounding this event went on for hours, for every hand.
Blatantly naked Straight Flushes - the kind of card hand that a gambler's eye and a floorman's eye just cannot miss - were popping up non-stop all over the place.
Jaw-dropping amounts of money exchanged hands on every deal.
This scenario really stretches belief.
Quote: 24BingoHere's where I've got to say you're wrong. Those not complicit in colluding with the dealer get to keep the money, period.
No. If the exchange of cash was due to error or malfeasance, and that can be shown and backed out, the casino may and can ask for it back. They often do, and players often openly say back: "No! I want to keep it! It's MINE, all MINE!" - Seriously, I've seen this happen many times.
In this case, the shenanigans went on for so long that it cannot be easily backed out, - like a one-off simple misplay that was clear.
If you wake up one morining to discover that a bank error - (even without malfeasance) - deposited $100,000 into your bank account by mistake, you do not get to keep it. They may ask for it back.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. If the exchange of cash was due to error or malfeasance, and that can be shown and backed out, the casino may and can ask for it back. They often do, and players often openly say back: "No! I want to keep it! It's MINE, all MINE!" - Seriously, I've seen this happen many times.
In this case, the shenanigans went on for so long that it cannot be easily backed out, - like a one-off simple misplay that was clear.
I've never seen a sign in a casino reading "human error voids all pays and plays." If this were due to flashed cards or the like (and not, e.g., a cashier miscounting) - although I'd probably rather avoid such a table - I think I'd be right to insist on being paid. I wouldn't, but only since one hand wouldn't in most cases be worth the acrimony. For bigger sums (say, if I ever played LIR), I'd sue, and from cases I've heard of involving even deliberate AP, I suspect I'd win. Again, if I screw up, they'll be more than happy to take my money, so why shouldn't they be afforded the same respect?
Quote: PaigowdanIf you wake up one morining to discover that a bank error - (even without malfeasance) - deposited $100,000 into your bank account by mistake, you do not get to keep it. They may ask for it back.
And if I find that a bank error drained my account, I'm going to do the same, and I'd expect them to do everything in their power to help. There's a difference between trusting a bank and gambling against a casino.
Quote: PokeraddictPaigowdan - Did you invent/license mini bac? IIRC it was someone in this forum. Sorry if that is a dumb question. I recall something about that but it was from long ago and I am not a diehard reader of every topic in the forum.
Dan invented EZ Pai Gow Poker distributed by DEQ as shown here EZ Pai Gow Poker
Quote: ParadigmDan invented EZ Pai Gow Poker distributed by DEQ as shown here EZ Pai Gow Poker
OK ty, so we are getting the POV of a casino employee and game inventor? I am not saying that is bad or he is wrong (he makes good points and seems to maybe have details), I was just trying to see where his POV was.
Cheating I can understand but AP for a casino game offered and accepted is where I have a huge problem.
Paigowdan, do you dislike pro blackjack players as well?
(Also, I kind of doubt the inventor of mini-baccarat is still alive...)
Quote: bigpete88Paigowdan, do you dislike pro blackjack players as well?
He's notorious for arguing that card-counters are cheaters and overall evil.
Quote: 24BingoAlthough SOOPOO has an interesting point - if this was a scam, why leave the deck unshuffled? Why not put it in an order harder to detect?
I am sure that is what they mean by "unshuffled". My point is we don't actually know what happened. It is impossible to believe that the casino could not detect the cards coming out in exact order over a 3 hour period.
I believe it is possible to miss one deck in exact order if the players are betting minimum.
Incidentally, this will probably give impetus to using electronically marked cards where you can see their order before they are dealt. Casinos have been reluctant to adopt these cards because they are expensive, but so is getting scammed. The far more common scheme is to bribe the dealer to shuffle the cards poorly, keeping a so called "plug" intact where the plug is a block of cards that remains unshuffled.
Big casino scam
Quote: pacomartinThe far more common scheme is to bribe the dealer to shuffle the cards poorly, keeping a so called "plug""slug" intact where the plugslug is a block of cards that remains unshuffled. (Edited by fleastiff).
Quote: PaigowdanSOOPOO, if I spot a serious problem on the floor, it is my responsibility to alert floor supervision ASAP.
Once notified, floor supervision takes appropriate action.
Dan, as is often the case, you did not answer my question. i will repeat it in case you opt to answer it.
Dan- if i asked your pit boss, or floor supervisor, or whatever you call him, this question, what would his answer be?
Hello, sir- If I notice that the dealer is dealing a deck that I believe to be improperly shuffled, is it my RESPONSIBILITY to ask the dealer to immediately stop play? Or may I be allowed to complete the hand using this knowledge to my adavntage? WHAT IS THE PIT BOSS'S ANSWER?
Dan, if you choose not to answer my simple question, please explain why you are avoiding answering it? Thanks
Quote: 24BingoI've never seen a sign in a casino reading "human error voids all pays and plays."
Human error does not void all plays. Never said or implied that:
However, Procedural error (which is different, and may stem from either error OR malfeasance) may invalidate plays, with the floor/management making final call. This should be know and accepted by all going into a sanctioned game.
This may inlude anything from "fine, players keep the paid out amounts," to "everyone pushes," to "we suspect malfeasance, and will investigate for the return of the money" - which seems to be the attempt here.
Quote: 24BingoIf this were due to flashed cards or the like (and not, e.g., a cashier miscounting) - although I'd probably rather avoid such a table - I think I'd be right to insist on being paid. I wouldn't, but only since one hand wouldn't in most cases be worth the acrimony. For bigger sums (say, if I ever played LIR), I'd sue, and from cases I've heard of involving even deliberate AP, I suspect I'd win. Again, if I screw up, they'll be more than happy to take my money, so why shouldn't they be afforded the same respect?
Again, no, that not how it works.
1. If players are newbies, and make good faith efforts, then they may get a Pai Gow hand re-set or another hit, etc., a mulligan or do-over, so to speak. See this and do this all the time. So, no, 24B, if you screw up, they may not be more than happy to take your moeny; sometimes your get both a mulligan and the money, depending on your good faith play. Also, if you hit a 18 by mistake and get a 3 for a 21, they'd be happy to pay you and they do, good for you, as that was an acceptable strategy action, too, so it goes both ways. See that all the time, too. Remember that improper strategy is not a mis-deal, AND that it is often forgiven for newbies, but not for shot-takers.
2. Dealer errors often result in approved player payouts. A dealer who innocent flashes, the players still get paid, AND the dealer gets taken off the game, and is written up or fired. (And you thought we had it easy....) The floor tries to determine who really deserves what when reconstructing fair play, allowing the extra winnings and "mulligans" to the players, and allows it to pass, - if the dealer made a simple innocent error as a one-off, and it was without cheating/malfeasance. If the dealer flashed or accidentally showed a card without the player actually attempting to "hole card" (using a finger-mirror, a camera device, placed his flat to the table edge, etc.), it is given to the player.
3. Procedural errors that can be backed out are backed out by the floor, with the correct result implemented; an overpay to a player is asked to come back (drats!), and an underpayment to a player gets and additional payout to the player (Yea!) It DOES go both ways.
4. On "casino scam or cheat" team-play (which was this reasonably seemed to be!), it gets reviewed by management through surveillance tapes, with interviews of dealers, floormen, and players, and possible room inspections done, along with follow-up actions, sometimes legal, sometimes in the press, which was the result in this case.
Quote: 24BingoAnd if I find that a bank error drained my account, I'm going to do the same, and I'd expect them to do everything in their power to help. There's a difference between trusting a bank and gambling against a casino.
No, not in the sense that they are:
1. Both financial-oriented business who have a right to protect themselves from fraud, AND
2. Have a responsibility to protect their clients from fraud. Remember that the losses from this cheat-team may drive up house edges and table minimums for legions of innocent players and customers, too. Few consider that.
Both Banks and Casinos are financially regulated business that have to apply for strict additional licenses and approvals.
You have seen that city in the news lately. Train left tracks, dumped a load of coal on two 19 year old girls and killed them.
Word on the street is that Captain Ellsworth is honest. Not first cop in the family, but glad my Dad is not alive to see this.
An honest cop in the family. What a crying shame.
Dan and I had similar environment growing up. Pool hall, bowling, and bookies.
But somehow Dan turned out to be honest and a square shooter.
I have no idea where he went so wrong !
Quote: SOOPOODan, as is often the case, you did not answer my question. i will repeat it in case you opt to answer it.
Dan- if i asked your pit boss, or floor supervisor, or whatever you call him, this question, what would his answer be?
Hello, sir- If I notice that the dealer is dealing a deck that I believe to be improperly shuffled, is it my RESPONSIBILITY to ask the dealer to immediately stop play? Or may I be allowed to complete the hand using this knowledge to my adavntage? WHAT IS THE PIT BOSS'S ANSWER?
Dan, if you choose not to answer my simple question, please explain why you are avoiding answering it? Thanks
Soopoo, I am not avoiding answering it. I have two responsibilities in such situation, and the floorman will agree:
If I am on the game simultaneously WITH another dealer, such as during a dealer exchange/tap-out, or shawdow-ing a new dealer, where we are BOTH on the game at the same time, AND spot an error from the other dealer that he does not see, I must point it out. This may or may not involve the floorman at the time. For starters here while on the job:
1. I Tap in one Pai Gow poker: the table "start hand position RNG" or dice shaker says "position 4", but old dealer leans towards position "3" first, I will say, "Jim, the deal starts at position #4." He will say "oh, thanks," and start at the correct position, and go on.
2. Old Dealer pays a player 3:1 on a player's straight in three card poker. I say, "Jim, his straight pays 6:1, not 3:1, on the pair plus." Jim says "Yes, correct, thanks," and adds three more chips to make the correct payout of 6:1. Payout is now fine, and it was during that player's same-hand transaction.
3. On a shoe game, such as blackjack, and "old dealer" is finishing the hand, and he did NOT notice that ALL the cards form a Table-Wide Straight Flush indicating that the cards were in Factory Unshuffled Order, then YES, I will say, "Stop the game for a moment, AND call the floor. You may be using unshuffled decks on the game." We now both alert the floor, and the floor makes a call. So Yes, that is the case only in that situation.
4. If I am EVER OFF of a game, and spot a dealer error from some distance, I can ONLY go to the floorman to address it. I do not say anything to the dealer of and when I am NOT at his table.
NowIf I am a PLAYER on a game on my off time, I will mention something to the dealer if the dealer misses something, and may notify a floorman, if needed.
If I asked a pitt boss or floorman if it were my RESPONSIBILITY to ask the dealer to STOP PLAY as a player if the dealer:
1. Made an error, OR
2. Was involved with an obvious problem,
The Floorman or pit boss will say two things:
1. Yes, you may point something out to the dealer;
2. In cases of cheating or serious break-down, You may indeed say out loud: "Stop play, something wrong is going here, the cards are stacked or unshuffled." From there the dealer handles it by calling the floor. It is okay to do this, and floorman will appreciate the alert that the dealer missed.
Quote: PaigowdanSoopoo, I am not avoiding answering it.
But you just did it again, you didn't answer his
question! Astounding. SooPoo wants to know
if its the players responsibility to tell the dealer.
Quote: EvenBobBut you just did it again, you didn't answer his
question! Astounding. SooPoo wants to know
if its the players responsibility to tell the dealer.
Re-read it.
Floorman/pit boss will say "player may ask, - or may say out loud, - to 'stop the game' and point it out, if there is a serious breakdown." From there the dealer handles it with the floor.
Quote: PaigowdanRe-read it.
Is it the players RESPONSIBILITY to tell the
dealer or the pit. The key word is responsibility.
Quote: 24BingoBoth articles refer to the cards as "unshuffled," not "improperly shuffled," and both casinos are suing the manufacturer. It may be that their default pattern is less blatant than the familiar straight flush in gas station decks, but there's no way it would have wound up reported this way by so many separate sources if it were anything like that scheme.
Even if the cards are unshuffled, the casino still must check - "eyeball" - EVERY single deck that goes on a live game.
The fact that this check was not even done is shocking and suspect, along with it not being noticed for hours in live play.
Quote: EvenBobIs it the players RESPONSIBILITY to tell the
dealer or the pit. The key word is responsibility.
1. Yes, it is a moral responsibility - if he is moral. It might even be legal - if he has a gaming license to protect (- now what if surveillance had his picture at the scene??)
2. No, if he is immoral, or just doesn't give a damn. It is not a "legal responsibility." Nothing illegal about not knowing wht is going on, IF you were:
a) not involved, and
b) freaking clueless about it. These guys, however, were clearly not ignorant or innocent of the situation, as indicated by both their bet selection and bankroll management, IMO.
Now, guys, please denote the distinction between a moral responsibility and a legal responsibility. Which "shade of responsibility" were you implying?
For that matter, if you look out your window, and see a street where a card accident has occurred, and someone may lay dying:
1. It is your responsibility to call 911 - morally.
2. It might not be your responsibility to call 911 legally, particularly because you were not involved and not the closest one to the scene, and because it was the driver's responsibility to not drink and drive. Go back to your game.
I make the distinction between moral responsibility and legal responsibility the way few do here.
As for the players, if they were involved, or even knew of the situation AND acted on it, they may be legally responsible also. Not certain, IANAL.
I generally find and expect moral codes to be a super set of legal codes.
Quote: Paigowdan1. Yes, it is a moral responsibility -.
Here we go again, Dan. The casino is now an arbiter
of morality? How can you even write that without
laughing out loud.
Quote: PaigowdanThe fact that this check was not even done is shocking and suspect, along with it not being noticed for hours in live play.
Dan, do you have any theories as to why the Golden Nugget isn't suing any employees? As far as we know, no one has even been fired, let alone prosecuted (although we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.)
If I owned a casino, I would be very upset to learn that one of my customers was stealing from me. But I would be far more upset to learn that one of my employees was stealing from me. It stings a lot more to get robbed by someone you know and trust than to get robbed by a total stranger.
Quote: PaigowdanEven if the cards are unshuffled, the casino still must check - "eyeball" - EVERY single deck that goes on a live game.
The fact that this check was not even done is shocking and suspect, along with it not being noticed for hours in live play.
Dan -
Are you talking about the dealer's procedure where, when a new deck is brought into a game, the dealer spreads it face up, to check to see that all the cards are there?
That's typical of most games, but we're talking about Baccarat, using a certified randomized 8 (or 6) deck shoe, which goes into use without examination. That's why it was certified.
The trouble is, although it was certified, the cards in question were in standard sorted sequence.
Quote: EvenBobHere we go again, Dan. The casino is now an arbiter
of morality? How can you even write that without
laughing out loud.
I never said that the casino was the arbiter of morality. I implied the individual was, and always is.
But in terms of "groups" being arbiters of morality, I have somewhat more respect for casino operators and their workers being better at it than averge gamblers by a long shot. I say this because I have met and dealt extensively with both legions of gamblers and legions of casino supervidors/dealers/execs.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDan -
Are you talking about the dealer's procedure where, when a new deck is brought into a game, the dealer spreads it face up, to check to see that all the cards are there?
No. I'm talking about when the floorman opens a new deck of cards, he "fans" it just like a poker hand for a moment, - just to see if it is ordered before putting it on the game! This is ALWAYS done, or supposed to be!
Quote: DJTBThat's typical of most games, but we're talking about Baccarat, using a certified randomized 8 (or 6) deck shoe, which goes into use without examination. That's why it was certified.
You eyeball/fan ALL new decks that were pulled from there celophane-wraped boxes.
Quote: DJTBThe trouble is, although it was certified, the cards in question were in standard sorted sequence.
Big trouble.
For this little step to be skipped - "certified or not," - and for the hours-long card stream not to be noticed...wow....
Quote: Paigowdan
But in terms of "groups" being arbiters of morality, I have somewhat more respect for casino operators and their workers being better at it than averge gamblers by a long shot.
Of course you do, Dan. Just like cops and lawyers,
you're a member of a fraternal group. And the job of any group
is to take the side of its members against all outsiders. To you,
the casino is above reproach in all they do. To us, looking in from
the outside, the casino is just as corrupt and lacking in morals as
any other organization out to fool the public into thinking its
something it isn't.
These weren't newbie players, but this is 100% a casino problem unless they KNEW that deck was coming in before they sat down.
