Here We Go Again: Unshuffled Baccarat at Golden Nugget AC...

Yeah, eons ago a box man fell asleep and the casino moved the few players and their bets to a neighboring table just to see what would happen when the box man woke up. So occasionally things get a little lax in casinos and if Benny Binion was around they could get very lax indeed, but its hard to have EVERYONE be asleep at the switch simultaneously. Particularly when you are dealing with separate departments such as Surveillance.

In order for a table to lose chips that table has to be banked with them and I don't know very many Mini-Bacc tables that are routinely banked at high amounts. So if the cage is sending out more chips and their is a Security escort arranged, pretty soon you've got a whole lot of people just going through the motions but not waking up to what is happening. Strange.

If I remember later, I'll try to find the Complaint on-line. I'd be surprised if they are not alleging some kind of collusion with the dealer, but maybe not. I find it hard to imagine that the players' actions, assuming they were unaware (prior to the beginning of the game) of the unshuffled deck could somehow be considered tortious. The casino offered a game, they played it.

Quote: reno

With so much money on the line, I just don't understand why a casino wouldn't shuffle every deck. Why risk it?

Because time is money. If using a preshuffled deck allows, say, 2 more hands per hour on EVERY table, and the casino averages, say $5 profit per hand dealt, then that is $20 per hour times number of hours times number of tables. So thousands of dollars EVERY day extra for the casino because of these preshuffled cards. So assuming even minimally competent people are working for you, the risk is worth the reward for the casino. It seems the Golden Nugget didn't have minimally competent people working that shift....

Does anyone know if they took all the shufflers out of every casino? Am I the only one wondering if there is still advantage play?? I was thinking of going to the casino tonight to what the mini bac had to offer. Maybe take pen and paper!! T

Seems like the lessons the casino learned from their misfortune is some of these cases could allowed as money well spent to avoid similar disasters. They should probably pay the players an extra 10,000 upon their winnings instead of suing them.

It's like those white hat hackers who save companies money by showing them where a weak link exists.

Ha, I'm sure they'll still sue them though.

Quote: bigpete88

I was thinking of going to the casino tonight to what the mini bac had to offer. Maybe take pen and paper!! T

You don't have to. Pencil and special cards are at the tables.

First responsive pleading was filed August 8th so all discovery must end by june sixth of 2013.
GOLDEN NUGGET ATLANTIC CITY LLC VS MINI BACCARAT
BACCARAT MINI
DOE JANE
GEMCO CORP EMPLOYEE
GEMCO DOMESTIC MO INC
HOANG LE
HOI CHAN
HUA SHI
KAREN LAM
KEN TSE
MIKE CHO
NGUYEN LE
PING LIN
SHENG XIA
SINH VOONG
TAI JIN
WALID SALAMA
ZHI LIN
ZOU LU ZONG

Well, nobody seems to have been prosecuted from the last similar case:

"The Golden Nugget dispute follows an unrelated incident Dec. 10 involving unshuffled cards in a mini-baccarat game at Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort. The casino lost $400,000 during the game and was fined $91,236 for failing to detect that the cards were unshuffled. Taj Mahal fired nine employees involved, including the shift manager, three assistant managers and four dealers." acpress

Isn't cheating in a casino a felony or at least a lesser crime in every venue except on Indian properties?

None of this stuff was a criminal prosecution. Civil fines before an administrative agency and a civil action for tortious behavior prior to and during the game.
Probably everyone except the shift manager deserved to be fired for being asleep on the job.

There was a small story on FOX News yesterday. Strange timing. The(as usual) announcers had no clue but indicated the supplier of the cards was the focus and for whatever reason indicated the cards came from China, the players had notice or were waiting etc..

Quote: SOOPOO

Because time is money. If using a preshuffled deck allows, say, 2 more hands per hour ..

What happens after the deal? Are the cards just tossed away/burnt(as in torched)? Thank you.

Quote: rxwine

They should probably pay the players an extra 10,000 upon their winnings instead of suing them.

Why? The players knew what they were doing was wrong, and didn't give a damn, so as long as they got their hands on some cold hard cash.
If you left your garage door open, does that entitle people to steal your car? No.

As far as I am concerned, both the casino employees and the players should go into the Black Book. I cannot fathom this not being collusion.

Quote: NokTang

What happens after the deal? Are the cards just tossed away/burnt(as in torched)? Thank you.

I'm not a casino procedure expert, but I'd guess they continue to use that pack of cards and just shuffle it after each shoe like any other pack of cards (either via an ASM or via hand-shuffle). Getting the cards pre-shuffled still saves them the time of the initial wash-and-shuffle procedure, which is quite lengthy compared to the following shuffles.

Or if they really are one-use, they probably re-sort them into decks and sell them in the gift shop/give them away. Or they might recycle them. I doubt they are burnt.

Quote: Paigowdan

The players knew what they were doing was wrong

How do you know that? Players don't necessarily know all the binding rules of every game they play and whether they have an obligation to quit playing or ignore something or notify managment.

Quote: rxwine

How do you know that? Players don't necessarily know all the binding rules of every game they play and whether they have an obligation to quit playing or ignore something or notify managment.

Oh, just a wild guess here - when they "accidentally" jumped their min bets into the freaking thousands when they realized that the cards weren't actually shuffled.....
We all know that the cards are supposed to be shuffled. Furthermore, they had to deliberately select between Player, Banker, and Tie in this scenario, - in order to win, also. With all that considered, these players clearly knew what was going on, none of this: "Well! The Players don't necessarily know all the...[yada yada yada]."

They Damn Well Knew, and it is impossible to falsify this.

We also know that the dealers and the floor supervision are supposed to:
1. Not have their heads in their asses when running live money games, OR
2. Ever be in collusion with such a scenario.

Like I said, all people involved - players, dealer, and floormen alike - should be permanently barred from casino play, and I'm talking the Black Book here.

Man, you are a freaking moron. Get out of town!

Quote: hhhccc

Man, you are a freaking moron. Get out of town!

Excuse me, - who are you calling a moron, hhhcc ??!!

This Baccarat situation was obvious, and was no accident.

Everyone knew what they were doing, certainly the players. There were no innocent or naive people involved in this scenario, not for the $1.5M split between 14 people...

Quote: hhhccc

Man, you are a freaking moron. Get out of town!

Seven-day suspension.

Paigowdan, just out of curiousity, what were the players obligated to do in this situation? Is it posted in the room somewhere? Is it announced? Is it on the door outside the casino.

Quote: rxwine

Paigowdan, just out of curiousity, what were the players obligated to do in this situation? Is it posted in the room somewhere? Is it announced? Is it on the door outside the casino.

People act and behave according to their own standards, - and this includes "knowingly taking and accepting dirty money" - or money that was obviously not based on any sort correct play and procedures - and this was absolutely 100% known to those who took the cash. There was NO doubt that the deck was stacked, to include being in a 100% "factory fresh" unshuffled order, and then playing accordingly.

This was very clear to all when consecutive straight flushes kept coming out of the shoe. Add to this the fact that players had to actively choose between Banker, Player, and Tie bets in order to win at all.

Yes, the dealers and floormen either screwed up - or were in collusion, which I clearly believe to be the case.
But you cannot say that the players were not in collusion, or acting in any way acting naively or innocently, either.

It's about improperly taking advantage of a situation when you KNOW what is really going on and know what is right. And betting on a clearly and obviously stacked deck - even though YOU didn't stack it - isn't right. It's enough that you know that it is, and THEN act on it, and then take the cold hard cash. And this is exactly what happened.

People are always obligated to do what they think and know is right, and sometimes they fail. They will say:
1. Well...it made sense to me at the time; or
2. I thought I could get away with it, or even did get away with it.
The inquiry into this whole mess was also no accident.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, the dealers and floormen either screwed up - or were in collusion, which I clearly believe to be the case.
But you cannot say that the players were not in collusion, or acting in any way acting naively or innocently, either.

Do we know this for a fact? And wouldn't the collusion probably extend all the way up to the guys working in surveillance (eye in the sky)? This quickly becomes an enormous conspiracy involving many employees working in different departments.

Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive, but I still think there's a real possibility that these players accidentally stumbled into a bizarre situation that wasn't planned or coordinated ahead of time. And I'm still not sure how this case is any different than a player observing (and profiting from) a biased roulette wheel.

When more of an investigation is done, I think it will turn out to have been rigged and the players were by no means simply fortunate to have been there at the time.

I admit that no casino puts up a sign stating that players who notice a misshuffled deck must stop playing and notify management and there is no such rule anywhere but I also think that in this circumstance the players were all in on it right from the start.

I...(Bracing self for backlash)...I....I...agree with PaiGowDan 100%.

There almost had to be collusion, the provability of which we will soon find out. I'm not sure all of the players were co-conspirators in the affair, notice that all of the players have the same attorney, though. That's interesting.

How many people do you really need to pull this off, other than the players? Three people? Five people, max, I would suggest.

We're going to take this thing for 1.5+ million, we're going to chop it (maximum) twenty ways. $75,000 each assuming equal distribution, the guys running the House probably get a bigger cut, I would say.

Is there anyone playing not in the know? Maybe. So be it. Adds legitimacy. You get someone reacting with genuine shock at the amazing run as opposed to everyone having to play the thespian.

Even if you are caught and sued (as is happening), you might win. There's no room for a criminal charge, unless you can get someone to nark. Nobody is going to nark. Might keep the money (less attorneys' fees) anyway. Absent a conviction, the people working for the House may still be employable.

75K, guaranteed, no other possible result, no criminal liability, could still win in a civil suit...possibly with a counter-suit...

How much do those guys make again?

Supposedly an Immigrant Rights Center played a role in their obtaining counsel due to non-facility with the English language but I too consider this more than just "lucky" immigrant gamblers who just happened to be there at the time and all just happened to notice what was going on. I'm wondering about that Jane Doe defendant who of course is fictitiously named but will be substituted in later as a more specifically identified defendant, probably an insider at Gemco or at the Casino. Some money changed hands, some duty rosters may have to have been rigged, someone had to know the reel of cards was about to come out to a certain table, ... and some lucky "no speak English" players just happened to be there at the time and win money from the casino with the sleepy employees.

I'm curious about one aspect. Suppose you walk up to a table and start playing. You don't notice anything going on that's out of the ordinary except this: everything is winning -- you, the other players, almost every bet you make. And it goes on like that for hours.

Are you supposed to assume that something is wrong and that it should be reported to management and maybe to the gaming board? Should you keep playing and enjoy the ride? Should those craps players, who just happened to be at the table when Patricia Demauro started her monster roll, have walked away to avoid the chance of being sued by the casino for taking advantage of something that was too good to be true? Should they have at least refused to increase their bets from their normal play?

I rather suspect that these bac players all recognized what was happening. Whether they conspired in advance or not, I suspect they recognized the oddities. But if a novice sat at the table and followed the custom he had heard -- that you should bet the same way as the big player -- should he be the target of a law suit by the casino because he stumbled onto a good thing? How would he prove his innocence, and should he even need to? If he doesn't need to, how would you prove that these players are lying about being innocent and naive? What facts differentiate them from the novice?

Paigowdan,

Is your point strictly a standpoint about high ethics? If so, and only from that standpoint, I can understand that viewpoint but not necessarily agree. What about the Whale that drank too much and is betting 25k a hand at blackjack and not even coming close to playing basic strategy. Should the casino give him the 1.5 million back that he lost with the casinos big edge? Those lawsuit never work out for the player, do they?

If there was collusion, with any insider, those facts will come out and all parties arrested (which is fine).

If not, the casino should pay. These player were card sequencing just as the MIT blackjack team did. Advantage play such as card counting, hole play, shuffle tracking and card sequencing should be off limits too Paigowdan? Caesars Palace in Vegas agrees with you as they barred me for life. I still hate them.

Yes, good point, if a casino is knowingly looking the other way as a player playing so badly practically gives them a giant percentage. Is the casino guilty of anything, like these bac players?

The only thing that bothers me about the collusion theory is that you could have one player whose job it was to memorize the correct play for two different numbers of people at the table. Say 6-7 players. You could have a different guy for 8-9. And so on. If it was collusive, they should have been able to play faster.

Quote: FarFromVegas

Seriously. Two full houses in a row to different players closed a Let It Ride table while they checked the cards when I was playing.

Regarding the dealer procedure and dealer mistakes there is almost nothing I can add to this thread that wasn't brought before. On the other hand I would like to comment on the Let It Ride comment. Last year I was playing Let It Ride with my mother (she is a fan) at Hard Rock Casino in Punta Cana. While betting U$25 I got a full House with pocket kings, so all the chips were riding. It took them almost 4 minutes to pay me, and they had the floorperson calling someone over the phone before handling me $1,125.

Everyone on here should know that once a bet is made and accepted, it is a bet. If Golden Nugget, who I also hate now, closed the table, that would have been their right. Not after the bet and the player wins.

Quote: Paigowdan

People act and behave according to their own standards, - and this includes "knowingly taking and accepting dirty money" - or money that was obviously not based on any sort correct play and procedures - and this was absolutely 100% known to those who took the cash. . . . The inquiry into this whole mess was also no accident.

As if the house never is "knowingly taking and accepting dirty money."

Quote: reno

Do we know this for a fact? And wouldn't the collusion probably extend all the way up to the guys working in surveillance (eye in the sky)? This quickly becomes an enormous conspiracy involving many employees working in different departments.

Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive, but I still think there's a real possibility that these players accidentally stumbled into a bizarre situation that wasn't planned or coordinated ahead of time. And I'm still not sure how this case is any different than a player observing (and profiting from) a biased roulette wheel.

I know at least one of the players that won big that day. He went to GN by chance that day. There was a crowd surrounding the mini baccarat table. As a regular, he plays all the time and the players know him. One player left opening up a seat for my friend. He started playing and betting big. Normally he does not like to play mini baccarat because he does not get to squeeze the cards. When the seat opened up he sat and played.

In baccarat, players keep score and try to make pattern. Sometimes a random event causes a pattern to appear, and gambler's call it streak.

First, my friend happened to come to this table by chance.
Second, being a regular, another player gave up the seat because this player was happy winning 50k.
Third, my friend did NOT cheat anymore than players jumping on a hot dice table cheats when one shooter has a monster roll.
Fourth, on every bet, my friend did not know for sure if he would win or not, he was just following a pattern like does any other time.
Fifth, GN recognized that these chips that they "locked up" were his because he was able to pay his marker with it, albiet he could not cash out. These chips are in limbo.
Sixth, GN could have shut this table down at any time and they did not. These players were not hiding the fact that they were betting $5000. This went for hours.

It is not the player's responsiblity to tell the casino how to do their job. This table was packed and the player were betting grey chips, max action for hours. The casino screwed up and now they want the player to pay back.

I walk into a flee market and see a 100k painting listed for $10. If I buy it did I commit a crime? I know what the painting is worth because I took time to educate myself. I do not need to educate the seller.

Quote: FleaStiff

None of this stuff was a criminal prosecution. Civil fines before an administrative agency and a civil action for tortious behavior prior to and during the game.
Probably everyone except the shift manager deserved to be fired for being asleep on the job.

Of course it is a crime. Here is just one current example from a Jersey neighbor:

New Jersey man allegedly caught cheating at Sands Casino Resort Bethlehem poker table
Published: Monday, August 20, 2012, 5:45 PM Updated: Monday, August 20, 2012, 5:48 PM
Sarah M. Wojcik | The Express-Times
Police say a South Orange, N.J., man cheated at Texas Hold 'Em at the Sands Casino Resort Bethlehem.
A South Orange, N.J., man profited by $325 after allegedly cheating while playing poker Sunday at the Sands Casino Resort Bethlehem.

Police charged Kyle Greg Dunn, 38, after the casino's security caught him postponing bonus wagers during a Texas Hold 'em game at 1:08 a.m. Sunday. Dunn allegedly used some kind of sleight of hand trick on three separate occasions in order to place the late bet after he'd already glanced at his hand.--Express-Times

Quote: Mission146

I...(Bracing self for backlash)...I....I...agree with PaiGowDan 100%.

There almost had to be collusion, the provability of which we will soon find out. I'm not sure all of the players were co-conspirators in the affair, notice that all of the players have the same attorney, though. That's interesting.

How many people do you really need to pull this off, other than the players? Three people? Five people, max, I would suggest.

You need at least Five people, up to nine or ten or so minimum - 14 alleged here:
1. The table's main dealer;
2. The relief dealer for that table;
3. the floorman who is assigned to that section of the pit;
4. the relief floor supervisor of that pit; and
5. at least one surveillance crew member

If you had read the book American Roulette by Richard Marcus, you could see this being such a scenario of how it may have gone down. I am saying a quick loss of more than a Million from a Bac table; once a Bac table - or any table - is down $100,000 really quick Someone Should Be Taking a Look-See on it. The typical Bac table drop and hold figures from the online data at the Missouri Gaming Commission's June 2012 table drop and hold data seem to indicate clearly that a typical Baccarat table can drop anywhere from $600K to $800K in a month's time or so, and only holds about 10% to 20% of that, - again - in a month!

Now...For a table to lose $1.5M in a single shift should have caught somebody's attention, particularly since non-stop consecutive Straight Flushes were flowing like water out of a Baccarat shoe - while maximum limits were being perfectly bet. As a dealer, I cannot understand how you cannot notice..

ANY clean dealer working that game would have shat his pants, seeing an eight-deck 400-card straight flush come out of the shoe while EVERYONE is winning NON-STOP AT THE TABLE MAXIMUM - while placing perfect table-max bets with perfect "future vision" - as to what next will indeed win...for a $1.5 Million-dollar streak....

Coincidence??...Hmmm...what would two or even three Standard Deviations look like??!!

Quote: Mission146

We're going to take this thing for 1.5+ million, we're going to chop it (maximum) twenty ways. $75,000 each assuming equal distribution, the guys running the House probably get a bigger cut, I would say.

Perhaps Yes.
This was NOT a break-in house; Atlantic City dealers and floormen are generally extremely sharp, - and can generally spot a $25 error on a jammed-up Three Card Poker game from thirty paces, as a routine part of their job....it's the One-Million-Five they seem to have missed here, now....

Quote: Mission146

Is there anyone playing not in the know? Maybe. So be it. Adds legitimacy. You get someone reacting with genuine shock at the amazing run as opposed to everyone having to play the thespian.

Even if you are caught and sued (as is happening), you might win. There's no room for a criminal charge, unless you can get someone to nark. Nobody is going to nark. Might keep the money (less attorneys' fees) anyway.

...

Quote: Mission146

Absent a conviction, the people working for the House may still be employable.

Highly unlikely, considering the press on it....I hope to Christ not so.....

Quote: Mission146

75K, guaranteed, no other possible result, no criminal liability, could still win in a civil suit...possibly with a counter-suit...

How much do those guys make again?

It's a year's salary for a top-property dealer, two years salary for a lower property...

Quote: Paigowdan

You need Five people:
1. The table's main dealer;
2. The relief dealer for that table;
3. the floorman who is assigned to that section of the pit;
4. the relief floor supervisor of that pit; and
5. at least one surveillance crew member

If they're playing that slowly, that's why I said three-five. Maybe you don't absolutely need the reliefs. The three that are definitely needed might get greedy and decide to try to do it without them. If the dealer takes a fifteen minute break, (as does the supervisor) maybe you pray that the reliefs don't catch the problem. How long could you stall? Could you stretch one hand out that long if you absolutely had to?

Quote:

Now...For a table to lose $1.5M in a single shift should have caught somebody's attention, particularly since non-stop consecutive Straight Flushes were flowing like water out of a Baccarat shoe - while maximum limits were being perfectly bet. As a dealer, I cannot understand how you cannot notice..

ANY clean dealer working that game would have shat his pants, seeing an eight-deck 400-card straight flush come out of the shoe while EVERYONE is winning NON-STOP AT THE TABLE MAXIMUM - while placing perfect table-max bets with perfect "future vision" - as to what next will indeed win...for a $1.5 Million-dollar streak....

I have to believe they had the dealer. At an absolute minimum, they had to have the main dealer. I can't see there being any other possibility.

Do you happen to know if every hand was a win, or were they smart enough to intentionally place a losing bet here and there?

Quote:

Perhaps Yes.
This was NOT a break-in house; Atlantic City dealers and floormen are generally extremely sharp, - and can generally spot a $25 error on a jammed-up Three Card Poker game from thirty paces, as a routine part of their job....it's the One-Million-Five they seem to have missed here, now....

You're sharp! If the Craps Table was even remotely within eye's reach from that Bacc Table, you would have caught it, while dealing Craps!!! The guys that are trained to look for something like this? Is anyone ever going to believe they were caught that unawares? Well, there hasn't been one shady play there in the last three years? Please. They catch honest mistakes, probably daily.

Quote:

Highly unlike, considering the press....I hope to Christ not so.....

I don't know, are their names being released? Maybe some small-time casino that won't recognize the names, and someone too lazy to Google? I mean, if you put in enough Apps, you're sure to run into someone that doesn't fully check you out. Perhaps deal in another country? You would know the games. They would certainly be omitting the Nugget from their applications!

Quote:

It's a year's salary for a top-property dealer, two years salary for a lower property...

For a couple of hours, Dan. One dirty shift. You know the guys you've worked with in the past, and specifically, don't include people you work with now, just guys who have come and gone. Out of 100, how many jump on it?

Would the floor know that the table was losing so much without a heads-up from the dealer? It's incompetence on their part not to notice the straight flush, but not necessarily collusion.

The dealers, though, must have been in on it. To a point, I suppose they're incentivized by tips to look the other way, although that's probably not too big an issue at an all-Asian mini-baccarat table, but there must have been a point where they were breaking policy by not alerting the floor to the loss. That doesn't necessarily mean all the players knew they had the dealer, though, so you've kind of got the identical twin problem where they're concerned, since it's been upheld time and again (at least in NV - maybe not NJ) that without outright collusion, taking advantage of this sort of thing is legal...

Quote: Mission146

I have to believe they had the dealer. At an absolute minimum, they had to have the main dealer. I can't see there being any other possibility.

On this, I have got to say that any dealer would have to notice a 400-card-long straight flush producing a million-dollar-plus table session loss during his shift. Unless he was paid a lot of money not to look, - in my opinion. IANAL, but I am not oblivious, either.

I ask - Try to do a mathematical analysis on this:
1. a 400-card straight flush coming out of a Baccarat shoe non-stop...and yes, we KNOW the decks were not shuffled now, and came out in 100% perfect "factory order..." - not at all noticed, for some very strange reason, but with -
2. A full table betting the table maximum
3. with perfect play for all next hands alternating between Banker, Player, and Tie...Oh! How Lucky I am! - and
4. The table losing $1.5M in a session, - which is the amount a High-Limit Baccarat table might make in a fine YEAR, and
5. And the experienced, veteran dealers and floormen - who notice and write a dealer up for a $25 mistake - not noticing this..

I would have to add you'd need to know before hand a battle-plan to bounce between Banker, player, and Tie bet to win this kind of money, too, no "Lucky Coincidence" here...

I would go so far as to say it all sounds suspect...

Quote: Mission146

Is anyone ever going to believe they were caught that unawares?

Not for a second - from anyone honest in this business, because it is both essentially statistically impossible, and blatant.
It's just so statiscally impossible and shamelessly obvious that I am just utterly speechless.

Quote: Mission146

I don't know, are their names being released?

To every Gaming Control Board and Gambling Commission in the Universe, I would say, even if not in the press.

Quote: Mission146

Maybe some small-time casino that won't recognize the names, and someone too lazy to Google? I mean, if you put in enough Apps, you're sure to run into someone that doesn't fully check you out.

I think these people would be flagged; every casino/gambling hall has to check employees with a gaming control board, and no one would trust them running a live money game.

Quote: Mission146

Perhaps deal in another country?

Neptune...

Quote: Mission146

You would know the games.

These guys know the games quite well indeed to be anywhere near this one, I have to add...

Quote: Mission146

For a couple of hours, Dan. One dirty shift.

Yes, - and they are ruined for life for being anywhere near it!
I don't get it, what were they thinking if they were involved? And how were they NOT thinking "sheesh..something's going on HERE!" if they were clean?? I just don't get it...

Quote: Mission146

You know the guys you've worked with in the past, and specifically, don't include people you work with now, just guys who have come and gone. Out of 100, how many jump on it?

A lot.
You know, it's like having Kim Kardashian pass out cold naked on a bed, with her having NO memory of anything, with no evidence left behind, - and a man having a clean getaway...now how many would say, "Nah..................this is JUST NOT RIGHT..." and how many would jump on her @ss or the chance....

Shi was the big winner with $149,050, while Xia won $25,000 and Lin won $50,000.

The trio are seeking to collect all their winnings, along with punitive damages for unlawfully invading their hotel rooms and then backrooming them after unlawfully converting their chips.

The mini-baccarat game began at 7:42 p.m. on April 30 and continued through 10:18 p.m.

The casino admitted thinking the 14 winners were running “a cheating and swindling action.” The Nugget discovered the unshuffled deck problem within 24 hours.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/brooklyn-man-hua-shi-suing-golden-nugget-atlantic-city-casino-accused-cheating-seized-winnings-article-1.1141689#ixzz24L4JucAE

Quote: Paigowdan

Atlantic City dealers and floormen are generally extremely sharp, - and can generally spot a $25 error on a jammed-up Three Card Poker game from thirty paces, as a routine part of their job....it's the One-Million-Five they seem to have missed.

From the Associated Press: "The Golden Nugget said it flooded the area with floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance and security officers, believing they were watching “a sophisticated swindling and cheating scheme” in progress." “From the beginning to the end of play, however, plaintiff could not identify any particular act of those players that actually constituted swindling and cheating,” the casino wrote in its lawsuit.

...

It doesn't sound as though the Golden Nugget intends to sue, punish, or fire any employees. As far as the casino is concerned, the employees are all innocent.

Perhaps the Golden Nugget considers this media coverage to be free advertising, but frankly this is terrible for their reputation. Here's my advice to the Golden Nugget: shuffle your own decks and drop the lawsuits. No one likes a sore loser.

Quote: Paigowdan

On this, I have got to say that any dealer would have to notice a 400-card-long straight flush producing a million-dollar-plus table session loss during his shift. Unless he was paid a lot of money not to look, - in my opinion. IANAL, but I am not oblivious, either.

I ask - Try to do a mathematical analysis on this:

I did a full analysis to the 416th decimal place. The odds are exactly 1:Collusion

Quote:

I would have to add you'd need to know before hand a battle-plan to bounce between Banker, player, and Tie bet to win this kind of money, too, no "Lucky Coincidence" here...

I would go so far as to say it all sounds suspect...

It doesn't sound like they had one. The length of time that shoe took, you could very well have done it in half of that time, if not less, if the players were really determined. That's what I was getting at earlier. They should have had one guy memorize the exact order of correct plays, based on starting card. Actually, you know what the first starting card is already, so just memorize the order in which you must bet and play it as fast as humanly possible.

It seems more like they were figuring out the next hand results as they went. It wouldn't be terribly hard to memorize.

Quote:

To every Gaming Control Board and Gambling Commission in the Universe, I would say, even if not in the press.

I think these people would be flagged; every casino/gambling hall has to check employees with a gaming control board, and no one would trust them running a live money game...

Neptune...

Do you really think they sent it to everyone in every country?

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These guys know the games quite well indeed to be anywhere near this one, I have to add...

They've been there long enough to be disgruntled around something. Perhaps players aren't the only people to ever take shots!

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Yes, - and they are ruined for life for being anywhere near it!
I don't get it, what were they thinking if they were involved? And how were they NOT thinking "sheesh..something's going on HERE!" if they were clean?? I just don't get it...

I don't think they are ruined for life, necessarily. They could probably get a job outside of the industry, easily enough.

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You know, it's like having Kim Kardashian pass out cold naked on a bed, with her having NO memory of anything, with no evidence left behind, - and a man having a clean getaway...now how many would say, "Nah..................this is JUST NOT RIGHT..." and how many would jump on her @ss or the chance....

I would say a greater amount would commit the Golden Nugget heist. I would at least think about the heist, two-three milliseconds, and then say that I can't do it. I'd never think about the Kim Kardashian thing, though, I would admire the view...for a time...if I were not married.

You could close down a game for "a suspected swindle" but if you really didn't know how it was being done, it would only leave you open to it happening again since you didn't identify the "how".

I'm not going to ponder how they couldn't figure it out, however. But I can see (a little) why they might let it continue.

Is there another possibility?

You train your co-conspirators to employ suspicious movements that are actually meaningless, giving you this effect. To miss something more obvious.

Quote: FleaStiff

Shi was the big winner with $149,050, while Xia won $25,000 and Lin won $50,000.

Good for them.
I say let Shi, Xia, and Lin keep the money, if they testify under oath that:
1. They openly admit that they were utterly and completely unaware of the 400-card-plus straight flush that flowed out of the Baccarat shoe under their own eyes - even though they are veteran and knowledable high-stakes experiecned gamblers, and;
2. They admit that they had to have calculate exactly how to play and bet each the "Banker," "Player," the the "Tie" bets - in order to calculate and profit from a 100% stacked eight-deck shoe, and that;
3. Know that playing a stacked deck or shoe for immense profit is wrong; and,
4. Playing that shoe was playing a fully stacked deck in practice, even if they did not stack the deck themselves, and moreso - knew how to exactly play that stacked shoe. I mean, if they played randomly between Banker, player and Tie, a stacked shoe or deck would not have helped them unless they knew how to play it for profit, which can be argued that they did.

If they openly admit to this, which seems to have been what happened, then let them have the money with everyone's blessing.

Quote: FleaStiff

The trio are seeking to collect all their winnings, along with punitive damages for unlawfully invading their hotel rooms and then backrooming them after unlawfully converting their chips.

Oh, the horrors. They examined them, and their room, after some extremely suspicious and suspect casino play. Perfectly reasonable; you allegedly scam a casino, and the casino checks you out. This is exactly how numerous casino cheats were caught, including Ron Harris, among others.

Quote: Fleastiff

The mini-baccarat game began at 7:42 p.m. on April 30 and continued through 10:18 p.m.

Resulting in a huge and virually statistically impossible loss for that small time frame.

Quote: FleaStiff

The casino admitted thinking the 14 winners were running “a cheating and swindling action.”

No sh]t.

Quote: FleaStiff

The Nugget discovered the unshuffled deck problem within 24 hours.

I guess they had to review the surveillance tapes, as neither the dealer or the floorman - who were on top of the game and running the game - noticed anything at the time, including the never-ending straight flush shoe with massive losses...I mean, if you dealt or played even Three Card Poker, you would might notice a straight flush that is a long as three cards here and there, as a coincidence...

The amount that was won must have also caused countless chip re-fills on the game...

Like I said, if Shi, Xia, and Lin are cleared of all this, then good for them. It'll never make any sense to me...

Quote: Paigowdan

I say let Shi, Xia, and Lin keep the money, if they testify under oath that:
1. They openly admit that they were utterly and completely unaware of the 400-card-plus straight flush that flowed out of the Baccarat shoe under their own eyes - even though they are veteran and knowledable high-stakes experiecned gamblers, and;

That would be perjury. On the contrary, they should admit they were aware of the constant straight flush.

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2. They admit that they had to have calculate exactly how to play and bet each the "Banker," "Player," the the "Tie" bets - in order to calculate and profit from a 100% stacked eight-deck shoe, and that;

Since it's completely legal, I don't see why not. Every serious Baccarat player does their calculations.

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3. Know that playing a stacked deck or shoe for immense profit is wrong;

I thought it's a player's right, and, if they are head of household, also duty to their family.

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Oh, the horrors. They examined them, and their room, after some extremely suspicious and suspect casino play. Perfectly reasonable; you allegedly scam a casino, and the casino checks you out.

Yeah, I think checking to confirm that they didn't stack the deck was reasonable.

Now, if evidence of collusion is found, it's a deeper story. They should look for that, not tell players that advantage shouldn't be taken when it's shoved in your face in plain sight.

Quote: Paigowdan

I say let Shi, Xia, and Lin keep the money, if they testify under oath that:
1. They openly admit that they were utterly and completely unaware of the 400-card-plus straight flush that flowed out of the Baccarat shoe under their own eyes - even though they are veteran and knowledable high-stakes experiecned gamblers, and;
2. They admit that they had to have calculate exactly how to play and bet each the "Banker," "Player," the the "Tie" bets - in order to calculate and profit from a 100% stacked eight-deck shoe, and that;

Here's where I've got to say you're wrong. Those not complicit in colluding with the dealer get to keep the money, period. Sure, they knew the deck was stacked, but it's the casino that presented a stacked deck. Profiting from the casino's mistake may be immoral, but it's legit. If they cut a deal to keep the dealer quiet, or directly witnessed such a deal, they're cheats and owe the money, but if they only took advantage, the fault is with the cheats, and if there were no cheats, with the card company, or even, just maybe, the house.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. Know that playing a stacked deck or shoe for immense profit is wrong; and,
4. Playing that shoe was playing a fully stacked deck in practice, even if they did not stack the deck themselves, and moreso - knew how to exactly play that stacked shoe. I mean, if they played randomly between Banker, player and Tie, a stacked shoe or deck would not have helped them unless they knew how to play it for profit, which can be argued that they did.

If a blackjack player hits a hard nineteen, or a pai gow player has lousy strategy, is it the house's fault they lose? So why is it the player's fault if the house screws up?

I think we should keep this thread as on-track as much as possible but please remember an Innkeeper may not enter your uncomped hotel room even if a licensee lawfully banned you from the casino. Nor can they wander about the room and involuntarily drag you back to the casino's security office.

I think some of this thread might boil down to "what do you do when an attractive young woman has forgotten to button her blouse"?

If she is a player, the dealer looks until the floor shows up, then the floor looks until the Pit Boss shows up and decides it should be his decision, etc. whereas if a female dealer has made a similar mistake, the Casino feels it is mandatory that every player immediately inform her. Now is their a difference between a wardrobe malfunction and a shuffling procedures malfunction? You bet there is!! Just ask any of the casino personnel who spent forty minutes looking at the woman's breasts!

Quote: 24Bingo

...Here's where I've got to say you're wrong. If there was no collusion with the dealer, they get to keep the money.

Possible Collusion??
Now this is EXACTLY where I have the problem....dealers are paid to see patterns in cards on a table instantly..as second-nature..as a robot to the point where you cannot helped but to always see it and cannot miss it...flushes, straights, etc....we do it eight hours a day, 5 days a week, 49 or 50 weeks out of the year on end.

Dealers will notice if the time on the clock just happens to be 11:11PM - they'll think - "shoot, four Aces..." - See a License Plate of "XJR 756" while driving to Walmart? - "three-card poker straight pays 6:1...." A phone Number of 983-8918? - they'll think Pai Gow Poker: "Split the full house, play it as 99/88831..." etc., - and this is just walking down the street.

When I play Baccarat, and see a five-card simple flush perhaps twice in five hands, I'll notice that that's rare, just waiting for my wife to finish her slot play so we can hit the movies....

For experienced and veteran Atlantic City Dealers and Floormen - who can spot a mis-set Pai Gow Poker hand from 20 feet away while tracking five other tables - to NOT notice that a Bac table is pumping out Royal after Royal after straight flush combos from an eight deck shoe through at least 41 rounds or so...- while hemorrhaging cash at the rate of $500,000 an hour (the $1.5M in that three hour) - on a full table with other experienced gamblers - is something I am simply incredulous about. And that this was not spotted after 24 hours, AND that it previously happened in the same gambling city of Atlantic City - and to great fanfare in the press?

There are many people in the gaming industry, and most of them may tell you honestly that something of this peculiar magnitude simple cannot happen without payoffs being involved, or else they may say to you, "Don't know, and I don't wanna know..."

Nobody in this industry who is legit buys this story, especially if they know statistics. 10^38.

Quote: 24Bingo

Sure, they knew the deck was stacked, but it's the casino that presented a stacked deck.

Doesn't matter who the hell stacked the deck. Matters if you played the deck and that you knew that it was stacked, and then took the cash knowing what the deal was. And you say, "Oh, It's okay for them to keep this money.."??!! - At least two people knew, I think, - the dealer and the player, that is of course, - if in such circumstances.

Quote: 24Bingo

Profiting from the casino's mistake may be immoral, but it's legit.

That is assuming it was an accident, first of all. All exceedingly dubious to anyone within six Astromincal Units of the gaming industry.
And second of all, taking dirty money that you know is dirty is never legit, even if nominally legal by state statutes. P,EOS.
I mean, one can argue that the players had to have known, having to deliberately and calculatingly shift their bets between Player, Banker, and Tie to profit so massively. Certainly, if the players were playing randomly, and not mathematically, then they would not have profited from a set up shoe...falsify this one....

Quote: 24Bingo

If they cut a deal to keep the dealer quiet, or directly witnessed such a deal, they're cheats and owe the money, but if they only took advantage, the fault is with the cheats, and if there were no cheats, with the card company, or even, just maybe, the house.

Somebody's at fault. In fact, a number of people. For this doozie to hit the press and the Internet is a scandal to the industry. Malpractice, Disgrace and Negligence. If the surveillance tapes were ever put on Youtube, it would be clear...

Quote: 24Bingo

If a blackjack player hits a hard nineteen, or a pai gow player has lousy strategy, is it the house's fault they lose?

No, but then of course the players didn't know which cards were coming out of the shoe, in those cases. Simple misplays, in those cases.
Now, in this casino case, there didn't seem to be any "player misplays" here, so to speak.

You and your crew make One-Million-Five is less than three hours on a Bac table, you and your crew did quite well, arguably no misplays as far as the table action was concerned, quite different.

The only misplays involve the fallout we're now discussing, if you want to look at it like that...

And there is some fallout.

If you start with the premise that this is a cheat, the
answer is obvious. The dealer, a pit guy and at least
one player slipped an unshuffled deck into the shoe
and blamed it on the card company. The most obvious
answer is usually the right one.

Quote: FleaStiff

I think we should keep this thread as on-track as much as possible but please remember an Innkeeper may not enter your uncomped hotel room even if a licensee lawfully banned you from the casino. Nor can they wander about the room and involuntarily drag you back to the casino's security office.

We can't? I'll be darned. Did they have the, "Do Not Disturb," sign out? If not, and we knock, we can go wherever we want to. We still own the hotel, I can inspect a guest room for any reason that I deem appropriate, absent the DND sign. Even then, "Oh, sir, I'm so sorry. I tried to knock. We had a call from a nearby room about your TV being too loud. I knocked, but got no answer. Your TV isn't even on, is it? My apologies. I'll call them back and make sure they knew what room they were talking about. Can I get you anything while I'm here? No? Good night, then."

Exactly Right.
When you are not in your own home, then you are NOT...in your own home or property.
You are actually in someone else's property, and they can at least legally do a cursory check as per by law.

One can argue that "casino artists" should not stay at the same casino hotel, or even in casino hotels in the same town; countless counters and AP's have made this mistake.