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rxwine
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May 16th, 2019 at 1:59:27 PM permalink
You're not legally required to even carry an ID.
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darkoz
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:09:05 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

You're not legally required to even carry an ID.



This is true

But if you are commit a misdemeanor crime the police can hold you to check your identity. I have seen it happen.

In this case the officer believed a criminal at large was located.

While it was his right to not show ID it was also the officers right to detain until verification of identity.

And thats what happened.

The officer handled the irate guy pretty well, not taking him down or even yelling at him. Just asking him to show ID or wait for ID verification.


I personally would have shown my ID and been done with it in 1 minute. But again that doesnt make a viral video
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AZDuffman
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:09:41 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

You're not legally required to even carry an ID.



But you are kind of crazy not to when you go out.
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terapined
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:30:49 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

There are people who look alike even down to doppelgangers (celebrity doppelgangers can even make a living off of it)



This one was not even close. As soon as the 2nd cop brought up the pic on his phone, they immediately knew they had the wrong guy.
billryan
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:31:04 PM permalink
I'm going to hazard a guess and say the police in Louisiana or someone tipped the Houston police that a wanted felon was in their baliwick and photos were distributed. Cop is driving down the street and sees someone he thinks is the guy. Not stopping would be a fireable offense. My father taught me at an early age to obey a police officers commands, no matter what. Don't run, you can't outrun a bullet. Don't fight, he might seem alone but he is not, and whatever the mistake is, it can't be resolved if you are dead. I've been called all sorts of names for doing this.
It would be great to live in the perfect world but we don't. In the world we do live in, things like that happen thousands of times a day.
I was pulled aside at a dwi checkpoint. Cop ran my license and asked me if I used a different name. He told me there was a warrant out of Boston but something was screwy. His boss came over and asked me for more id and if I had lived in Maine two years ago.
At this point they had me out of my car and sitting on the side of the road. Some time passed and the original cop came back, handed me my stuff and told me to go. I didn't stick around to inquire into what was what.
I suspect it would not have gone as easily for many. Work on solving problems, not creating them.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
terapined
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:40:30 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

While it was his right to not show ID it was also the officers right to detain until verification of identity.



Actually this is wrong
.The police don't have that right
There are literally a gazillion videos on youtube of police demanding ID and people refusing and not being arrested or detained because that would be an illegal action by the police. They are called 1st admend audit. Its getting to the point that these youtubers want the police to illegally demand ID and to illegally detain a citizen. The more the cop argues that he does have the right to illegally see ID and illegally detain, the views go into the millions.
It kind of bothers me that these people have nothing better to do then to try to goad police into doing something illegal
but
It would bother me even further if the cop decides to break the law and take away a citizens freedom for no other reason then to check ID


MaxPen
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May 16th, 2019 at 2:46:51 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Actually this is wrong
.The police don't have that right
There are literally a gazillion videos on youtube of police demanding ID and people refusing and not being arrested or detained because that would be an illegal action by the police. Its getting to the point that these youtubers want the police to illegally demand ID and to illegally detain a citizen. The more the cop argues that he does have the right to illegally see ID and illegally detain, the views go into the millions.
It kind of bothers me that these people have nothing better to do then to try to goad police into doing something illegal
but
It would bother me even further if the cop decides to break the law and take away a citizens freedom for no other reason then to check ID



You should Google terry stop. Along with it, while your in the T section, take a look at tariffs😀
I swear you stopped at terapined and went no further.
darkoz
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May 16th, 2019 at 3:10:12 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Actually this is wrong
.The police don't have that right
There are literally a gazillion videos on youtube of police demanding ID and people refusing and not being arrested or detained because that would be an illegal action by the police. They are called 1st admend audit. Its getting to the point that these youtubers want the police to illegally demand ID and to illegally detain a citizen. The more the cop argues that he does have the right to illegally see ID and illegally detain, the views go into the millions.
It kind of bothers me that these people have nothing better to do then to try to goad police into doing something illegal
but
It would bother me even further if the cop decides to break the law and take away a citizens freedom for no other reason then to check ID




I believe you are conflating 2 different aspects of police IDing.

You cannot be arrested for refusal to provide ID.

You can be arrested for suspicion of warrants out for your arrest.

If you refuse to show ID when there is a legitimate belief the officer has that you are a wanted criminal then you have no legal recourse.

You keep pointing out the pic didnt match. Welllll, thats why the guy wasnt arrested, correct. The officer said wait until verification or show ID. The man asserted his constitutional right not to show ID and as a result had to wait for independent verification.

The argument "the pics weren't even close" is irrelevant because the officer believed it was at that moment.

Its similar to being asked if your car can be searched. You have a constitutional right to refuse. The officer can then use discretion to detain you while drug sniffing dogs are brought to independently verify.

Do not confuse the individuals rights with a lack of policing options. One does not trump the other. The police simply have options to police that make life harder while simultaneously respecting individual rights
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terapined
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May 16th, 2019 at 3:35:50 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: terapined

Actually this is wrong
.The police don't have that right
There are literally a gazillion videos on youtube of police demanding ID and people refusing and not being arrested or detained because that would be an illegal action by the police. They are called 1st admend audit. Its getting to the point that these youtubers want the police to illegally demand ID and to illegally detain a citizen. The more the cop argues that he does have the right to illegally see ID and illegally detain, the views go into the millions.
It kind of bothers me that these people have nothing better to do then to try to goad police into doing something illegal
but
It would bother me even further if the cop decides to break the law and take away a citizens freedom for no other reason then to check ID



I believe you are conflating 2 different aspects of police IDing.

You cannot be arrested for refusal to provide ID.

You can be arrested for suspicion of warrants out for your arrest.

If you refuse to show ID when there is a legitimate belief the officer has that you are a wanted criminal then you have no legal recourse.

You keep pointing out the pic didnt match. Welllll, thats why the guy wasnt arrested, correct. The officer said wait until verification or show ID. The man asserted his constitutional right not to show ID and as a result had to wait for independent verification.

The argument "the pics weren't even close" is irrelevant because the officer believed it was at that moment.

Its similar to being asked if your car can be searched. You have a constitutional right to refuse. The officer can then use discretion to detain you while drug sniffing dogs are brought to independently verify.

Do not confuse the individuals rights with a lack of policing options. One does not trump the other. The police simply have options to police that make life harder while simultaneously respecting individual rights



Good point.
Here's my counterpoint
Times have changed
You, me, the cop. Well just about everybody has instant access to the planets information on a device we all carry that is so small it fits right into your pocket.
A smart cop sees the guy, gets out his phone, walks up to the citizen, sees its not him. "Have a nice day"
The cop had the evidence and its portable.
darkoz
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May 16th, 2019 at 4:17:29 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Good point.
Here's my counterpoint
Times have changed
You, me, the cop. Well just about everybody has instant access to the planets information on a device we all carry that is so small it fits right into your pocket.
A smart cop sees the guy, gets out his phone, walks up to the citizen, sees its not him. "Have a nice day"
The cop had the evidence and its portable.



Thats also a good point.

A 2nd cop drove up with that device too.

What is missing is why the first officer didnt have it on his own person.

Who knows why? His could have been damaged. Or he left it home(that would be egregious but mistakes happen). Maybe budget constraints caused every other officer in the department to have one.

Ideally he should have been able to do what you said, I agree
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TomG
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May 16th, 2019 at 6:34:20 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Any self-defense class teacher will stress that you de-escalate the situation first, fight as a last resort. Normal people do not escalate things. Too many Blacks never learned this lesson.



The normal thing is to meet the level of tension. In a tense and volatile situation, it is normal to be tense and volatile. Being able to de-escalate situations with people feeling trapped and attacked and deadly weapons present requires significant training. And from what I can tell, a lot of police are completely untrained in that area.

When I'm faced with people who have the authority to take away my freedom, my script is "Did I do something wrong? I would like to go home. Do I have the right to remain silent?" The only scenarios I can think of happening is that I'm allowed to go on my way, or I'm arrested. I think that because of how I look and how I carry myself (and not committing crimes), I'm almost certainly not going to be arrested. With this guy, the cop was threatening arrest simply because of how the person looked. Police should be trained that they never take away someones freedom based solely on what a person looks like. Unfortunately it seems that they are trained in the exact opposite way. And no matter how escalated this guy got, this is a perfect example of how truly wrong the entire field of policing can be.
TomG
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May 16th, 2019 at 6:35:34 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If you refuse to show ID when there is a legitimate belief the officer has that you are a wanted criminal then you have no legal recourse.



This guy was being threatened with arrest based on a completely illegitimate belief.
darkoz
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May 16th, 2019 at 7:26:52 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

This guy was being threatened with arrest based on a completely illegitimate belief.



You would have to prove the officer knowingly believed the person was not the wanted fugitive.

Since the officer had to wait until the 2nd one showed up with the picture, the officer wil claiml and probably did believe he had identified the person based solely on his memory.

His memory may have turned out to be faulty but that is why he summoned the other officer with the picture proof.

How is that illegitimate?
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Nathan
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May 16th, 2019 at 8:01:21 PM permalink
This "Wrong guy being unlawfully questioned," reminds me of a Good Times Episode where JJ spent time in jail on his 18th birthday because some criminal had robbed a liquor store and poor JJ happened to be RUNNING to see his girlfriend after the Robbery. Near the liquor store. Ouch. Spending your birthday in jail for something you didn't even do.

He also got fired from a job that he had just got because his boss didn't want to have someone who was sitting up in jail working for them. The boss didn't even WAIT to see if JJ was unlawfully arrested and jailed, he just firex him on the spot. What a crummy birthday. Jail time and getting fired on your birthday! Turns out, the REAL robber was this short fat guy whereas JJ was tall and skinny and Florida sarcastically says",I can see why you arrested JJ! JJ and Robber are practically twins!" JJ was released and when told he would have the unlawful arrest and unlawful jail time on his record, he lightheartedly said,"My record is on the top of the charts!"

Even when I was young I remembered feeling anger at the possibility that someone could get unlawfully arrested and jailed and it wouldn't be automatically expunged from their records especially since they found the REAL Criminal!
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
TomG
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May 16th, 2019 at 8:01:39 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You would have to prove the officer knowingly believed the person was not the wanted fugitive.

Since the officer had to wait until the 2nd one showed up with the picture, the officer wil claiml and probably did believe he had identified the person based solely on his memory.

His memory may have turned out to be faulty but that is why he summoned the other officer with the picture proof.

How is that illegitimate?



There was sufficient evidence readily available and the cop knowingly chose to ignore it before engaging. He instead relied on skin color and hair style as the only evidence when he threatened arrest and put his hands on him. It may be legitimate within the field of policing to do that. That just shows how illegitimate some of the things in that field are.
rxwine
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May 17th, 2019 at 12:08:46 AM permalink
Another perspective -- rights activist tell you to staunchly defend your rights, because letting cops or any authority step all over them is the path to constant abuse.

Stand up for your rights, or lose them. Don't just go along to get along.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 3:21:23 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

The normal thing is to meet the level of tension. In a tense and volatile situation, it is normal to be tense and volatile. Being able to de-escalate situations with people feeling trapped and attacked and deadly weapons present requires significant training. And from what I can tell, a lot of police are completely untrained in that area.



Police might be, but I am talking more about the other guy. We do not see what happened before the camera rolled. How the cop approached and started the conversation. The guy is clearly angry and screaming and the cop more quiet. Think how often this is the case. The perp or someone around the perp escalates things. I've been around it. Authority figure ready to walk away, then someone wises off. Authority figure just wants to check something out, other figure wants to make a SCOTUS case out of it.

Quote:

When I'm faced with people who have the authority to take away my freedom, my script is "Did I do something wrong? I would like to go home. Do I have the right to remain silent?" The only scenarios I can think of happening is that I'm allowed to go on my way, or I'm arrested. I think that because of how I look and how I carry myself (and not committing crimes), I'm almost certainly not going to be arrested. With this guy, the cop was threatening arrest simply because of how the person looked. Police should be trained that they never take away someones freedom based solely on what a person looks like. Unfortunately it seems that they are trained in the exact opposite way. And no matter how escalated this guy got, this is a perfect example of how truly wrong the entire field of policing can be.



I will hold my judgment as I did not see how it all began. This cop was more than minimally trained as he had to be at least a corporal since he showed the guy his chevrons. It is unlikely the cop just walked up and threatened arrest. My thought is the cop came up to the guy and asked a question or two and the guy started to get out of hand. Same as that guy in MA that caused the "Beer Summit." That one was more cut and dried. The cops were investigating a break-in attempt and the actual guy was breaking into his own home with a lost key. Instead of thanking the cops he started wising off. This guy yeah, he was more minding his own business.

It is why the cops are getting those body-cams. We will never know how it started. Everything I have heard is complaints of "racism" by cops plummet when they start wearing body-cams.
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darkoz
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May 17th, 2019 at 3:44:59 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Police might be, but I am talking more about the other guy. We do not see what happened before the camera rolled. How the cop approached and started the conversation. The guy is clearly angry and screaming and the cop more quiet. Think how often this is the case. The perp or someone around the perp escalates things. I've been around it. Authority figure ready to walk away, then someone wises off. Authority figure just wants to check something out, other figure wants to make a SCOTUS case out of it.



I will hold my judgment as I did not see how it all began. This cop was more than minimally trained as he had to be at least a corporal since he showed the guy his chevrons. It is unlikely the cop just walked up and threatened arrest. My thought is the cop came up to the guy and asked a question or two and the guy started to get out of hand. Same as that guy in MA that caused the "Beer Summit." That one was more cut and dried. The cops were investigating a break-in attempt and the actual guy was breaking into his own home with a lost key. Instead of thanking the cops he started wising off. This guy yeah, he was more minding his own business.

It is why the cops are getting those body-cams. We will never know how it started. Everything I have heard is complaints of "racism" by cops plummet when they start wearing body-cams.



Call me a liberal but I am in agreement with AZ in this case.

I call it like I see it.

Or as AZ points out cannot see it. We cant see what happened prior to the rolling of the video, the officer is very calm and is corporal so has training.

This whole thing just reeks of a simple thing being blown out by the black guy and his wife.

I noticed the wife even begs the cop to please leave him alone BUT never once says to her husband to calm down. Thats a situation where you want to be giving advice to your loved one, not egging him on by berating the officer
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AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 4:45:32 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Call me a liberal but I am in agreement with AZ in this case.



The world may end today! Oh well, we had a good run. *%&# the lawn.

EDIT: I have had this happen to me. Fired Black guys for total bad performance on two occasions. On one the guy was smart enough not to go crazy crazy, had a wife and kids at home and knew he was going to lose. On another the guy went from subtle to ballistic (I knew he would as he had a serious rage problem, clinical) and we went from explaining he was fired in a normal meeting to having to call the cops in a few seconds. Guy told the cops I was "slipping something into his coffee" among other crazy charges. We could have been on "COPS" if they were filming.

For this reason, I ALWAYS want to know what happened before.
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darkoz
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May 17th, 2019 at 4:59:59 AM permalink
Lets take casinos.

Is it a violation of my civil rights to be surrounded by security for legal AP and forced into a backroom?

Hell yeah.

Is there anyone on here who believes it wise to start cursing and be belligerent in that scenario?

The smart thing is keep the situation from escalating and if your rights are violated sue in court.

I have no problem with the taping of the incident but no one who doesnt want to risk a beatdown would act that way in a casino with security.

Why the hell would you risk it with an armed police officer?
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darkoz
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May 17th, 2019 at 5:03:53 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

The world may end today! Oh well, we had a good run. *%&# the lawn.

EDIT: I have had this happen to me. Fired Black guys for total bad performance on two occasions. On one the guy was smart enough not to go crazy crazy, had a wife and kids at home and knew he was going to lose. On another the guy went from subtle to ballistic (I knew he would as he had a serious rage problem, clinical) and we went from explaining he was fired in a normal meeting to having to call the cops in a few seconds. Guy told the cops I was "slipping something into his coffee" among other crazy charges. We could have been on "COPS" if they were filming.

For this reason, I ALWAYS want to know what happened before.



What does their being black have to do with that, though?

One guy acted normal at getting fired (so he disproves any black issues point you had) the other had psychological problems.

This could easily have happened with 2 white guys.

It was just 2 different men. 2 different reactions. 2 different personalities.
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AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 7:04:00 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

What does their being black have to do with that, though?

One guy acted normal at getting fired (so he disproves any black issues point you had) the other had psychological problems.

This could easily have happened with 2 white guys.

It was just 2 different men. 2 different reactions. 2 different personalities.



Well, it was 2 different men, 2 similar reactions, same personality. Same rage. One just had more to lose if the cops got involved and knew it.

To your question, "what does being Black have to do with it?" Complex answer. White guys can't scream that they are being discriminated against. They will not be taken seriously. In addition to these two, a source I 100% trusted told me about a Black girl was on our team at a bank I worked at. I marveled at how she could get so many closings scheduled so fast. Well, she got them done fast because she did not follow procedure at all. This kind of person when they get caught it is usually when they take vacation, and it happened here. She was totally in the wrong, and when fired she was escorted out, screaming loudly that she was being discriminated against.

Yes, it "could have been two White guys." But it never happened with a white guy. I have fired many people. I had to call the cops on a White guy I think once. He just refused to leave the office. Not physical, just sat there and refused to leave, so they came and ejected him. The Black guy, they had to stand between us to keep him from attacking me.

Other White guys might have begged me not to do it. But there was never a threat, direct or implied.

IMHO it comes down to two things. One, there is money in being discriminated against. Long-term you can threaten a lawsuit. Short-term a place will be afraid to fire you to avoid a lawsuit. The first guy, the one who didn't call the cops. he was knocking the branch dead for a couple years. I finally caught him in outright fraud and theft. My boss *still* had to be convinced to let me fire his ass. I don't remember if I asked my boss if I had to prove the guy was in on shooting JFK, but I came close to asking it. They were so afraid of a lawsuit.

Second thing is there is a sizable portion of Black America that thinks they are always being discriminated against no matter what. We had another Black guy, younger guy. He was not doing anything "active" to destroy the place like the first two. He just had no common sense for customer service. He took any order personally, and you could see in his reaction he thought he was being singled out. Black assistant manager I had took it upon himself to directly manage the kid, even though he was in a different department. It was one of those things where we all knew why he stepped up but did not speak about it.

So the kid is just a disaster. Not the job for him. Kid had zero in the common sense department. Lost half his customer base in abiut six months. When I laid him off he was genuinely amazed. Still had "the look." You could see he felt he was being discriminated against.

All the books say, "just treat everyone the same, yadda, yadda, yadda." But you get on the street, you learn with some people you have to watch out for different things. As Shelly LaVine said, "you have to learn it on the street." Of course, there are Black folks who will be polite, cordial, helpful. Others will have a hair-trigger personality. If more Blacks have that hair-trigger than Whites, Asians, etc., then you learn to be more aware and on-guard about it.
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AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 7:14:07 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



One guy acted normal at getting fired (so he disproves any black issues point you had) the other had psychological problems.



No, he did not act "normal." He tried to trap me in the sales room. Stood nose to nose and said in a threat, "what are you going to do about it." Fortunately I had my office girl briefed to call the cops if I said call the cops and call NOW. There was a second Black guy who was fired before I got there was buddies with this guy. That second guy attacked my Service Manager when he was fired.

The guy was half Black, half White, and angry at the world. He said I discriminated against him because he was Black. He said the previous manager was discriminating against him as that guy was not "really Black." (the previous manager was ironically my assistant manager who handled the other Black guy.) He had major issues.
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terapined
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May 17th, 2019 at 7:50:50 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You would have to prove the officer knowingly believed the person was not the wanted fugitive.

Since the officer had to wait until the 2nd one showed up with the picture, the officer wil claiml and probably did believe he had identified the person based solely on his memory.

His memory may have turned out to be faulty but that is why he summoned the other officer with the picture proof.

How is that illegitimate?




The guy was in his front yard minding his own business playing with his kids and his dog
Its obvious he's no flight risk
You check the evidence 1st before trying to arrest a man in front of his own home
Its really sad how a Black man in his own yard would cause the police to be so suspicious they draw their gun
sad

A white Colorado police officer has resigned after being caught on video drawing his gun on a black man who said he was picking up trash at his property.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/444131-colorado-police-officer-resigns-after-video-shows-him-pulling-gun-on?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
darkoz
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May 17th, 2019 at 7:52:32 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No, he did not act "normal." He tried to trap me in the sales room. Stood nose to nose and said in a threat, "what are you going to do about it." Fortunately I had my office girl briefed to call the cops if I said call the cops and call NOW. There was a second Black guy who was fired before I got there was buddies with this guy. That second guy attacked my Service Manager when he was fired.

The guy was half Black, half White, and angry at the world. He said I discriminated against him because he was Black. He said the previous manager was discriminating against him as that guy was not "really Black." (the previous manager was ironically my assistant manager who handled the other Black guy.) He had major issues.



Ok well, my ex is black, my children are bi-racial and most of my friends and family are black.

I will agree with you that there is a large number of black men and women who will believe any decision against them is due to racial discrimination. I have witnessed that myself. This is known within the black community too as I have seen it joked about even in Tyler Perry movies.

The problem is I have also seen instances where there was racial discrimination especially by NYC police again witnessed by myself due to my proximity within the community.

It becomes sorta like conspiracy nuts. Most times they are incorrect paranoids but sometimes there really is a conspiracy.

Sometimes black people really are discrimination victims (and the back history of this country is heavily based on discrimination).

I try to take each case individually. If you dont then YOU start saying things that appear racist (like black people this, etc)

As you see in this video incident I didnt jump on the side of the black man or even the side of American constitutional rights but on the side that appeared to be correct IN THAT INSTANCE.

Which is all I ever really ask anyone to do
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billryan
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darkoz
May 17th, 2019 at 8:06:49 AM permalink
Under Bloomberg, NYPD institutional a completely illegal stop and frisk program. Some kids in my neighborhood were stopped over 200 times, according to police records, and many such stops weren't even written up. That was illegal.
A man being detained by police because the officer mistakenly believes he is someone else isn't. If he'd chosen to cooperate, it would have gone smoothly and he'd have been on his way. He chose not to cooperate, which is his right, and was detained until it was ascertained he wasn't the person.
You don't have to cooperate with the police. It's just usually in your best interest if you do.
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AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 8:23:24 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Ok well, my ex is black, my children are bi-racial and most of my friends and family are black.

I will agree with you that there is a large number of black men and women who will believe any decision against them is due to racial discrimination. I have witnessed that myself. This is known within the black community too as I have seen it joked about even in Tyler Perry movies.

The problem is I have also seen instances where there was racial discrimination especially by NYC police again witnessed by myself due to my proximity within the community.



I have seen flat out discrimination as well. But I have seen more excuses than actual discrimination. I have lived the era of affirmative action/"diversity" where there are special considerations that amount to state-sanctioned discrimination in favor of Blacks. The NYC cop thing is a sad reaction to reality where you have a city where Black gangs have made parts of it unlivable for years. Mafia-types have gotten the same treatment. My reaction is that Blacks need to stop defending any Black for any reason, even when the Black guy is in the wrong. It is as if half the Black population prefers living in a gang-infested area to a well-policed one.
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darkoz
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May 17th, 2019 at 8:39:51 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I have seen flat out discrimination as well. But I have seen more excuses than actual discrimination. I have lived the era of affirmative action/"diversity" where there are special considerations that amount to state-sanctioned discrimination in favor of Blacks. The NYC cop thing is a sad reaction to reality where you have a city where Black gangs have made parts of it unlivable for years. Mafia-types have gotten the same treatment. My reaction is that Blacks need to stop defending any Black for any reason, even when the Black guy is in the wrong. It is as if half the Black population prefers living in a gang-infested area to a well-policed one.



As an actual resident of NYC including some of its recognized worst neighborhoods at one time, it is not as bad as it was back in the 70's n 80's.

Unfortunately bad rep is difficult to shake.

BTW-the crime rate was dramatically lowered after strict gun control laws were enacted in the 90's. Of course thats something right wingers are scared to admit.
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AZDuffman
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May 17th, 2019 at 8:56:01 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

As an actual resident of NYC including some of its recognized worst neighborhoods at one time, it is not as bad as it was back in the 70's n 80's.

Unfortunately bad rep is difficult to shake.



I don;'t think anything was that bad. A nadir for all USA cities.

Quote:

BTW-the crime rate was dramatically lowered after strict gun control laws were enacted in the 90's. Of course thats something right wingers are scared to admit.



Along with all the other reforms Rudy made. All-around "broken window" policing is what did it, not merely gun control. Rudy brought back a sense of general law and order. Remember the squeege men? Previous mayors said, "oh well!" Rudy knew that good people do not want to live in and around such a mess.

NYC by virtue of many things is probably a city where if you do not keep that kind of policing it will just fall back to what it was. From what I have read it already is as the new generation of lefties do not remember how bad it was. It seems to be sliding back. It will not get as bad in some ways (e.g.: mafia control) but there seems to be a "don't bother with petty crimes" attitude creeping back.
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rxwine
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May 17th, 2019 at 9:39:56 AM permalink
Quote:

Evans said he was standing in front of his home, playing with his children, when the deputy, whose name has not been released, pulled up to this house and initially asked him about his dog.
"At the time, my dog was in the house," Evans said. "I'm breeding my dog so I thought he was stopping to ask about some puppies or something. So, I didn't think nothing of it."
"He told me my dog was stolen," he said. "I told him, 'Well, that can't be possible.'"
The episode quickly escalated, according to Evans, and the deputy began asking him his name and grabbed him by the right arm.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/white-deputy-mistakenly-tries-to-arrest-black-man-on-warrant/ar-AABtk3C?ocid=spartanntp
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rxwine
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May 18th, 2019 at 3:53:24 PM permalink
Quote:

JACKSON, Miss. — A Mississippi jury has awarded a total of more than $3 million to five African American strippers after a federal judge found the women worked under worse conditions than their white colleagues.
U.S. District Judge Henry T. Wingate ruled in the discrimination case last year. After a trial that lasted nearly a week on the question of damages, jurors decided Wednesday that the women would split $3.3 million for back pay and past and future suffering.

The attorney for Danny's Downtown Cabaret, Bill Walter, said Friday he will ask Wingate to reduce the award. If Wingate disagrees, Walter said he will appeal.
"Obviously, the client is disappointed in the verdict," Walter said.

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission sued Danny's years ago, saying the Jackson club limited when black women could work and fined them $25 if they didn't show up for a shift. The commission said white strippers had flexible schedules at the club and were not subjected to fines for missing work.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jury-awards-dollar3m-to-black-strippers-in-discrimination-case/ar-AABxNrE?ocid=spartanntp
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Tanko
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May 18th, 2019 at 4:58:23 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

NYC by virtue of many things is probably a city where if you do not keep that kind of policing it will just fall back to what it was. From what I have read it already is as the new generation of lefties do not remember how bad it was. It seems to be sliding back. It will not get as bad in some ways (e.g.: mafia control) but there seems to be a "don't bother with petty crimes" attitude creeping back.



Not sliding back yet.

Crime in NYC has been steadily falling for the past 26 years. Down 80%.

Year to date, murder is down 8.7%, robbery is down 8.5%, and burglary is down 14.4%.

If this keeps up, this should be another record low year for crime in NYC.

Overall NYC crime is down 6.6% year to date.

To get an idea what it was like here before Giuliani, watch “The Seven Five” on Netflix.

AZDuffman
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May 18th, 2019 at 5:16:13 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jury-awards-dollar3m-to-black-strippers-in-discrimination-case/ar-AABxNrE?ocid=spartanntp



Back pay? Strippers pay the club to dance.
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AZDuffman
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May 18th, 2019 at 5:24:43 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

Not sliding back yet.

Crime in NYC has been steadily falling for the past 26 years. Down 80%.

Year to date, murder is down 8.7%, robbery is down 8.5%, and burglary is down 14.4%.

If this keeps up, this should be another record low year for crime in NYC.

Overall NYC crime is down 6.6% year to date.



It is going to start with petty crimes, along with increased homeless population and that population getting more aggressive.

Quote:

To get an idea what it was like here before Giuliani, watch “The Seven Five” on Netflix.



Seen it, but it was probably worse than that. Out of control mafia. Times Square one big porn shop. People put "NO RADIO" signs in their cars to dissuade people from breaking in. Bernie Goetz forced to shoot a bunch of punks to protect himself on the subway. No normal person would consider moving there.
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darkoz
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May 18th, 2019 at 5:46:30 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: Tanko

Not sliding back yet.

Crime in NYC has been steadily falling for the past 26 years. Down 80%.

Year to date, murder is down 8.7%, robbery is down 8.5%, and burglary is down 14.4%.

If this keeps up, this should be another record low year for crime in NYC.

Overall NYC crime is down 6.6% year to date.



It is going to start with petty crimes, along with increased homeless population and that population getting more aggressive.



Seen it, but it was probably worse than that. Out of control mafia. Times Square one big porn shop. People put "NO RADIO" signs in their cars to dissuade people from breaking in. Bernie Goetz forced to shoot a bunch of punks to protect himself on the subway. No normal person would consider moving there.



Gee NYC has such a tough time convincing people to move there
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billryan
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May 18th, 2019 at 6:23:16 PM permalink
Nobody goes to NYC. It's too crowded.
Having lived in NY much of my life, and most of the 1970s, I'd say the best portrayal of NY in that period was a short lived series called Life on Mars. Highly recommend it.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
beachbumbabs
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May 18th, 2019 at 7:12:45 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Well, it was 2 different men, 2 similar reactions, same personality. Same rage. One just had more to lose if the cops got involved and knew it.

To your question, "what does being Black have to do with it?" Complex answer. White guys can't scream that they are being discriminated against. They will not be taken seriously. In addition to these two, a source I 100% trusted told me about a Black girl was on our team at a bank I worked at. I marveled at how she could get so many closings scheduled so fast. Well, she got them done fast because she did not follow procedure at all. This kind of person when they get caught it is usually when they take vacation, and it happened here. She was totally in the wrong, and when fired she was escorted out, screaming loudly that she was being discriminated against.

Yes, it "could have been two White guys." But it never happened with a white guy. I have fired many people. I had to call the cops on a White guy I think once. He just refused to leave the office. Not physical, just sat there and refused to leave, so they came and ejected him. The Black guy, they had to stand between us to keep him from attacking me.

Other White guys might have begged me not to do it. But there was never a threat, direct or implied.

IMHO it comes down to two things. One, there is money in being discriminated against. Long-term you can threaten a lawsuit. Short-term a place will be afraid to fire you to avoid a lawsuit. The first guy, the one who didn't call the cops. he was knocking the branch dead for a couple years. I finally caught him in outright fraud and theft. My boss *still* had to be convinced to let me fire his ass. I don't remember if I asked my boss if I had to prove the guy was in on shooting JFK, but I came close to asking it. They were so afraid of a lawsuit.

Second thing is there is a sizable portion of Black America that thinks they are always being discriminated against no matter what. We had another Black guy, younger guy. He was not doing anything "active" to destroy the place like the first two. He just had no common sense for customer service. He took any order personally, and you could see in his reaction he thought he was being singled out. Black assistant manager I had took it upon himself to directly manage the kid, even though he was in a different department. It was one of those things where we all knew why he stepped up but did not speak about it.

So the kid is just a disaster. Not the job for him. Kid had zero in the common sense department. Lost half his customer base in abiut six months. When I laid him off he was genuinely amazed. Still had "the look." You could see he felt he was being discriminated against.

All the books say, "just treat everyone the same, yadda, yadda, yadda." But you get on the street, you learn with some people you have to watch out for different things. As Shelly LaVine said, "you have to learn it on the street." Of course, there are Black folks who will be polite, cordial, helpful. Others will have a hair-trigger personality. If more Blacks have that hair-trigger than Whites, Asians, etc., then you learn to be more aware and on-guard about it.



I used to have to work with guys like you. So glad to be retired. The stereotyping and bigotry just drips through this entire post. And you don't have the slightest idea how offensive your writings are, any more than how offensive it is for you to have that nasty avatar.

I don't know why I bother, except I can't let drivel like this go unchallenged. That's how we got Trump. Never again.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
TomG
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May 18th, 2019 at 7:17:11 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Back pay? Strippers pay the club to dance.



But they still get paid for their work. If skin color forced them to work worse shifts, or dance on the stage more, or pay higher rates, they would have had their pay reduced based on discrimination
AZDuffman
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May 19th, 2019 at 4:37:13 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I used to have to work with guys like you. So glad to be retired. The stereotyping and bigotry just drips through this entire post. And you don't have the slightest idea how offensive your writings are, any more than how offensive it is for you to have that nasty avatar.

I don't know why I bother, except I can't let drivel like this go unchallenged. That's how we got Trump. Never again.



Bigotry? Reporting actual events is bigotry? Maybe you have had the fortune not to have had to deal with what some of us have had to deal with. Have you been threatened with physical attack when you had to fire someone for not showing up for work? Had someone who did not show up for work one day say you were "discriminating against them?"

If you want to "challenge" what I have written, then please challenge it. Saying it is "offensive" is not challenging it. Do as I did when you challenged anyone to show how "California was not paying their fair share" and I laid it out with actual numbers. I did the same by showing people who "celebrated" abortion. Did you see those posts?

As to your comment on Trump, we have had major success all over under him. When does that war with N. Korea that you predicted start? Booming economy, 50 year low unemployment, better trade deals, out of treaties that do nothing but steal money and send it overseas, lower taxes for most....what part of that upsets you?

Trump has been right on almost everything so far. The problem is some people cannot handle the truth. Same as my post.

So please, lets have a debate. But on actualities, not feelings or being PC.
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darkoz
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May 19th, 2019 at 6:13:47 AM permalink
Racist Americans are not moving to NYC.

Those who cant handle black people and immigrants.

Good riddance

They can stay in their solitude of cornfields where they deny global warming think Trump is the Messiah and believe they know anything about big city life
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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May 19th, 2019 at 6:17:49 AM permalink
I recently walked down 5th Avenue AND DIDNT SEE ONE SINGLE AMERICAN!

LOL
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AZDuffman
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Boz
May 19th, 2019 at 6:47:20 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Racist Americans are not moving to NYC.

Those who cant handle black people and immigrants.

Good riddance

They can stay in their solitude of cornfields where they deny global warming think Trump is the Messiah and believe they know anything about big city life



And someone else here called my post bigoted?
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AZDuffman
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May 19th, 2019 at 6:50:13 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

New York City has a negative net domestic migration rate. Translation: more people leave one of the city’s five counties than move in. What’s more, that trend has accelerated in recent years, from a rate of -0.2% in 2010 to -1.8% in 2016. It’s worth mentioning, however, that the city is still growing (up 4.4% from 2010 to 2016), due to international migration and natural increase (births vs. deaths).

Like California, Americans are not moving to NYC.



Awwww, I am so heartbroken. What a disaster. NYC will soon be off the map.

Lmfao



It clearly is not a place people want to move to. I can see two groups waning to move there. Those who want to work in finance and those who think they have a career in theater. Otherwise it is just not a popular place. Taxes and cost of living way too high. Too crowded. Visited a few times, can't imagine living there.
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SOOPOO
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AZDuffman
May 19th, 2019 at 7:00:09 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I used to have to work with guys like you. So glad to be retired. The stereotyping and bigotry just drips through this entire post. And you don't have the slightest idea how offensive your writings are, any more than how offensive it is for you to have that nasty avatar.

I don't know why I bother, except I can't let drivel like this go unchallenged. That's how we got Trump. Never again.



Please suspend yourself. In the "anything but Trump thread" this is what you post!
AZDuffman
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May 19th, 2019 at 7:06:40 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Please suspend yourself. In the "anything but Trump thread" this is what you post!



Good catch, OM! How did I miss that.

Open apology to everyone else in the group for getting sucked into replying to that part.
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SOOPOO
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May 19th, 2019 at 7:07:49 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

New York City has a negative net domestic migration rate. Translation: more people leave one of the city’s five counties than move in. What’s more, that trend has accelerated in recent years, from a rate of -0.2% in 2010 to -1.8% in 2016. It’s worth mentioning, however, that the city is still growing (up 4.4% from 2010 to 2016), due to international migration and natural increase (births vs. deaths).

Like California, Americans are not moving to NYC.



Awwww, I am so heartbroken. What a disaster. NYC will soon be off the map.

Lmfao



It clearly is not a place people want to move to. I can see two groups waning to move there. Those who want to work in finance and those who think they have a career in theater. Otherwise it is just not a popular place. Taxes and cost of living way too high. Too crowded. Visited a few times, can't imagine living there.



Saying a place 'is too crowded' might be some evidence people do want to live there?

I was born in the Bronx. Grew up in Queens. College in Manhattan. Medical school in Brooklyn. I was happy to be in NYC all those chapters of my life. But for me I did not want to raise kids in NYC. And I LOVE visiting NYC. But I do agree with AZ that I would not want to live there now. But because it is not for me does not mean it is not for the millions who live there, and the millions who would want to.
I'll be spending a long weekend there next month. Looking forward to it!
AZDuffman
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May 19th, 2019 at 7:23:33 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO



Saying a place 'is too crowded' might be some evidence people do want to live there?



I should have expected that as a reply. Some people don't mind crowded. Some like the hustle-bustle. Anything south of the Tap was too congested for me. Long Island? Fugheddabaddit! First time I was there I could not get how people lived in all that. Back to the city, when I still believed I could work my way up at the bank they had an analyst training program. You stayed for 6 months in the Village in some apartment the company had. Several of us thought it would be cool for 6 months. We all agreed after that, get me the flip out of here!

To keep being fair, NYC is as I alluded to, a place you have to go, or almost have to go, to break-in for certain industries. For finance, in most mid-size cities, there are 1-3 decent sized places that might hire you. To take Buffalo, HSBC is the biggie, with a smaller 1-2 that ebb and flow in hiring. In NYC, you are around it all, finance capital of the world, even with losing position to the Dubais and Singapores. You have to go there to make your bones. Fashion? Good luck in Rochester, is Hickey Freeman even still there? In NYC you again have dozens of places to try.

In return for this, a dump of a place to live costs what the best parts of Buffalo/Rochester/Albany do. You get the kinds of problems that less dense areas simply do not get. It's why the net domestic out-migration. People move there to do that make your bones thing. Few want to stay. Meanwhile, people there see how much better then can live elsewhere, and move.

Quote:

I was born in the Bronx. Grew up in Queens. College in Manhattan. Medical school in Brooklyn. I was happy to be in NYC all those chapters of my life. But for me I did not want to raise kids in NYC. And I LOVE visiting NYC. But I do agree with AZ that I would not want to live there now. But because it is not for me does not mean it is not for the millions who live there, and the millions who would want to.
I'll be spending a long weekend there next month. Looking forward to it!



Get a pizza at Grimaldi's. Have a slice for me.
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MaxPen
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May 19th, 2019 at 7:28:06 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Racist Americans are not moving to NYC.

Those who cant handle black people and immigrants.

Good riddance

They can stay in their solitude of cornfields where they deny global warming think Trump is the Messiah and believe they know anything about big city life



At least the corn fields don't have the urine soaked smell that the streets of NYC has, especially on a hot summer afternoon.
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