Vegas 2047 Pinball - G2E 2014
Quote: EvenBobSo in order to stay ahead, as an AP does,
you have to get the best score every time
you play. You realize that's impossible, right?
And if you bet $100, you win $23 if you can
beat the highest score ever gotten every
time. Do I have it correct?
You are right, this is indeed advantage play.
It's out of the range of every human on the
planet, but it is AP. Kind of. Theoretically.
Hilariously.
Thanks for finally clearing this up..
After spending the time I spent responding to you and getting this back, I am done with you.
I hereby promise to never respond to a single thing you ask ever again. Responding to you is a complete waste of my time.
I apologize if this is hurtful, but I don't have any time for this sort of nonsense.
You really should feel bad for wasting my time, frankly. But I'm sure you're somehow amused.
Do us both a favor and respect the fact that I ignore you. Okay?
Here's a note to the people in charge of the forum software: when I block a member, I still see the quotes from that member in other people's responses to that member than I have blocked.
In other words, it doesn't work to block members. I still see their responses when other people quote them.
It would be awesome if there were zero evidence at all that EvenBob were a member of this forum when I log in using my username.
Quote: AhighWe will be making a "for amusement only" pinball game (different theme) and the expected price per game will be very much the same as a regular pinball game.
Excellent. I think that's a much better idwa. Now you're dealing with something you know. I could see the machine at a Peter Piper Pizza spitting out tickets.
Quote: AhighBut there will be an arcade version coming out too. It might even be available first, I just don't know how long it will take to get into the casino.
Is never as the game stands now a long time?
Quote: AhighIf you're playing in the high limit room "for drinks" as they say. I would bet $100 to win $1 and play until I lose.
A terrible misjudgement in your strategy. High limit players have absolutely no interest in winning a dollar. Not even $100 or $1,000 will peak their interest. Will they play for $10,000? Maybe. But when they figure out they have to risk $30,000 or $40,000 or $50,000 for it and have only a slim chance of winning instead of there normal 49% or 48% playing blackjack or baccarat, they will be done. If you are going to say the machine can be set to a 1% advantage if the casino chooses, no casino is going to risk that kind of money on an electronic game.
Hopefully this helps you understand. You guys really should have consulted with casino staff and high limit players somewhere along the line.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Hopefully soon you will start to understand gaming.
Personal insult.
Did you not say that you were done insulting me?
Do you even realize when you are insulting me?
Please stop.
Quote: Zcore13When you do I think it will be like a lightbulb going on. I'll try and help you a little bit.
Excellent. I think that's a much better idwa. Now you're dealing with something you know. I could see the machine at a Peter Piper Pizza spitting out tickets.
Is never as the game stands now a long time?
A terrible misjudgement in your strategy. High limit players have absolutely no interest in winning a dollar. Not even $100 or $1,000 will peak their interest. Will they play for $10,000? Maybe. But when they figure out they have to risk $30,000 or $40,000 or $50,000 for it and have only a slim chance of winning instead of there normal 49% or 48% playing blackjack or baccarat, they will be done. If you are going to say the machine can be set to a 1% advantage if the casino chooses, no casino is going to risk that kind of money on an electronic game.
Hopefully this helps you understand. You guys really should have consulted with casino staff and high limit players somewhere along the line.
ZCore13
Look, I'm going to make this really clear for you: I don't care for what you have to say. At all. Please just stop addressing me, and that would be fantastic.
I didn't care for your comment that caused me to get banned right before G2E.
And I didn't care for the other things that caused for me to get banned on other occasions, such as the "are you asking me out on a date" question.
I took that as an insult, too.
You seem to know just how to insult me, and you seem to skirt the rules with your insults.
I don't like it, and I want it to stop.
Immediately.
My next step is to address Larry McGuire in your human resources department about this problem.
This thread is in the Kiosk forum and is specifically related to my business. This thread was approved by the Wizard and is intended to promote my business.
You are seemingly attempting to discredit me as a professional in my industry.
I do take this VERY seriously.
You should step back and consider the consequences of your actions before taking further actions.
Quote: AhighPersonal insult.
Did you not say that you were done insulting me?
Do you even realize when you are insulting me?
Please stop.
Sorry but that's not a personal insult. I do not know how to make video games or pinball machines. I've never done that before. I have no experience at it and I don't think I could if I tried.
Have you ever worked in a casino? Have you been in Staff meeting with revenue, hold, time on machine and risk of ruin discussions? Have you ever marketed or tried to sell a game or concept to a Slot or table games director?
If you answer is no, then you really don't know gaming. If yes, then I am wrong and you are experienced in the gaming profession.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Sorry but that's not a personal insult. I do not know how to make video games or pinball machines. I've never done that before. I have no experience at it and I don't think I could if I tried.
Have you ever worked in a casino? Have you been in Staff meeting with revenue, hold, time on machine and risk of ruin discussions? Have you ever marketed or tried to sell a game or concept to a Slot or table games director?
If you answer is no, then you really don't know gaming. If yes, then I am wrong and you are experienced in the gaming profession.
ZCore13
First of all, I don't believe that you are sorry.
Second of all, I absolutely positively believe that you are trying to damage my business.
It needs to stop. I will take action.
This is your last warning.
Quote: Ahigh
My next step is to address Larry McGuire in your human resources department about this problem.
That's funny.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13That's funny.
I'm glad you find humor in it. I don't. The fact that you do is another insult in my direction. I am serious.
Quote: Ahigh
I apologize if this is hurtful, but I don't have any time for this sort of nonsense.
Which part was nonsense? You explained (finally) and
I responded. If a player beats his previous best and
everybody elses best, every time he plays, he wins $23
when he risks $100.
What part did I get wrong. This is advantage play, just
as you said. I'm agreeing with you, I don't see the problem.
Quote: AhighPersonal insult..
Yet you said to me a couple times that I didn't
understand and might catch on several times
tonight. By your standards, isn't that a personal
insult to me?
I just wanted you to clear up the details and you
did. No hard feelings.
Quote: AhighI'm glad you find humor in it. I don't. The fact that you do is another insult in my direction. I am serious.
Anyway. Back to discussion about the game which I assume is why you created the topic on a discussion forum. As i've said. The game was fun. It looks great. It would be a killer game if you could get licensing for classic pinball games. Incredible value in that.
Think about making some changes to give you a better shot.
Open it up to all denominations, not $100 minimum and put it on the floor near other similar electronic games.
Do not allow any player to ever have an edge over the house based on their pinball playing skills.
Make the game larger. It seems like it will get lost in the shuffle amongst larger games like electronic roulette and craps.
Bring in a focus group of players and casino slot/table games managers. Listen to them. They are your bread and butter.
All of these things will help.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Anyway. Back to discussion about the game which I assume is why you created the topic on a discussion forum. As i've said. The game was fun. It looks great. It would be a killer game if you could get licensing for classic pinball games. Incredible value in that.
Think about making some changes to give you a better shot.
Open it up to all denominations, not $100 minimum and put it on the floor near other similar electronic games.
Do not allow any player to ever have an edge over the house based on their pinball playing skills.
Make the game larger. It seems like it will get lost in the shuffle amongst larger games like electronic roulette and craps.
Bring in a focus group of players and casino slot/table games managers. Listen to them. They are your bread and butter.
All of these things will help.
ZCore13
Thank you for the suggestions. I would appreciate it if you stopped addressing me, though. You have a tendency to say things to me that I interpret to be insulting. I would just rather you stop addressing me completely, please.
Quote: Zcore13[snip]
Do not allow any player to ever have an edge over the house based on their pinball playing skills.
[snip]
ZCore13
That might not go far enough.
I really don't like being a wet blanket, but it goes with the territory...
It seems to me that if you allow physical skill to alter the payouts or even the probabilities, you are creating a perfect ADA test case. I am not an ADA specialist, but it strikes me as providing a target-rich environment for trial lawyers (casinos are deep-pocket defendants unlikely to be viewed favorably by a jury). Money changes everything; if it was a standard amusement device, it wouldn't be interesting as it is impossible to quantify entertainment value. Dollars and odds are quantifiable and provable.
I can only assume you paid a bundle to a major law firm to investigate and brief this issue long ago.
Quote: LoquaciousMoFW
I really don't like being a wet blanket, but it goes with the territory...
It seems to me that if you allow physical skill to alter the payouts or even the probabilities, you are creating a perfect ADA test case. .
For sure, you are correct. This thing was
not very well thought out, time to take a
breather and start at square one. Again.
Quote: LoquaciousMoFWQuote: Zcore13[snip]
Do not allow any player to ever have an edge over the house based on their pinball playing skills.
[snip]
ZCore13
That might not go far enough.
I really don't like being a wet blanket, but it goes with the territory...
It seems to me that if you allow physical skill to alter the payouts or even the probabilities, you are creating a perfect ADA test case. I am not an ADA specialist, but it strikes me as providing a target-rich environment for trial lawyers (casinos are deep-pocket defendants unlikely to be viewed favorably by a jury). Money changes everything; if it was a standard amusement device, it wouldn't be interesting as it is impossible to quantify entertainment value. Dollars and odds are quantifiable and provable.
I can only assume you paid a bundle to a major law firm to investigate and brief this issue long ago.
We wouldn't have gotten this far with such horribly pessimistic thinking. But I appreciate your comments nevertheless.
I will admit that we met with GLI pretty early on to discuss things and kept them aware that we intended to create a math model with advantage play.
GLI's perspective on the matter, as they have described to us, is that there is plenty of existing games that enable additional RTP based on all sorts of factors including hand-to-eye coordination and skill.
Reel Edge is another game that offers additional RTP to players based on hand-to-eye coordination and I am unaware of any ADA lawsuits against that game.
They don't, however, make it very clear that you get a larger RTP by the timing in when you hit the buttons to stop the reels.
If anything, I would think that the lack of transparency in how you get bonus RTP on Reel Edge would be a concern.
That's a major reason we have so much transparency is to avoid conflicts of some players not understanding the effects of skill on the outcome of the random portion of the game.
Quote: Ahigheven some experts fail to understand that positive EV is possible.
Yes, but not in this lifetime or in this galaxy.
But it is theoretically possible. Kinda sort of.
Quote: AhighEspecially math experts that suck at pinball.
Wow. Talk about a personal insult.
You might be right however its not 100% based on skill not even close. I think they addressed this already, legally a certain % can rely on skill. I believe its been done before. One could argue This will always get you at least 75% payback with ZERO and blind. Video poker, its largely based on skill. One could achieve way lower than the state minimum.Quote: LoquaciousMoFWQuote: Zcore13[snip]
Do not allow any player to ever have an edge over the house based on their pinball playing skills.
[snip]
ZCore13
That might not go far enough.
I really don't like being a wet blanket, but it goes with the territory...
It seems to me that if you allow physical skill to alter the payouts or even the probabilities, you are creating a perfect ADA test case. I am not an ADA specialist, but it strikes me as providing a target-rich environment for trial lawyers (casinos are deep-pocket defendants unlikely to be viewed favorably by a jury). Money changes everything; if it was a standard amusement device, it wouldn't be interesting as it is impossible to quantify entertainment value. Dollars and odds are quantifiable and provable.
I can only assume you paid a bundle to a major law firm to investigate and brief this issue long ago.
Bob look at all the pictures. you don't need the highest score to achieve +EV. Also the already explained that.
Zcore: You can vary you best first, then adjust the amounts you want to win.
Simply add a nudge/bump button that takes no physical movement from your body. it could shake the screen quickly left, rite, up or down.Quote: AhighFunny comment about the baby.
Yes, there is a tilt feature, but it was disabled for the show.
https://ntek.com/mot-ionkit.php
This is the hardware that we make that's the industry standard for tilt on digital pinball machines. It works quite well for both plunger, general I/O, and tilt. However we already have new IRQ-based inputs for nanosecond latency instead of 5ms average latency we get on the USB controller, and we are revamping our tilt hardware for casino applications as it is more demanding than what we have available for the home market.
Specifically, the casino cabinet is a heavier cabinet than a regular pinball game. So the tilt feature is a little bit different than for a cabinet that can be moved around more easily. Also, the casino operator can, at their discretion, disable the tilt, and play may be considered more fair when tilt is disabled as it was for the show. Tilt tends to favor a personality-type that is a little bit more muscular, and I'm not truly sure that this is an objective for gambling (to enable physical strength to determine winnings).
But, again, short answer is that we do have the technical ability to support tilt.
You could add a pressure sensor that will determine the intensity. To hard and tilt, to soft and very small movement will occur. you could have a sound affect with higher volume synchronized with the intensity.
you could add something on both sides encased in rubber exactly where you would normally shake/nudge or bump a normal machine, near the glass and the side above the flipper buttons. When playing, I instinctively wanted to sway/bump and nudge the machine a bit when i seen the ball lineup with the drains. I was disappointed knowing the ball was heading down the center and nothing I could do but watch my game end.
Quote: Zcore13Hopefully soon you will start to understand gaming.
Given that Ahigh has worked in the gaming business for years, I think this qualifies as a personal insult, plus the fact that Ahigh feels the same way. You were also also already banned for fighting with Ahigh.
Seven-day suspension.
Quote: WizardGiven that Ahigh has worked in the gaming business for years, I think this qualifies as a personal insult, plus the fact that Ahigh feels the same way. You were also also already banned for fighting with Ahigh.
Seven-day suspension.
I have been feeling pretty beat up since that Bob dancer show that led to some of these comments here about the game getting a "thumbs down" by "three experts" on AP.
After these comments I received an email from Bob Dancer that the worth of Vegas 2047 is not of sufficient value to have a show about the game.
I appreciate the support. It might be hard to realize this, but some of these criticisms of me are difficult not to become rather emotional about.
It is disappointing that there continues to be quite a bit of kickback from people since that show.
I'm still pretty upset about this if for no other reason than I have worked so hard to get to this point only to have this sequence of insults and kicks to occur.
Bob literally described our game as not being "worthy" of a show in an email to me after being beat up in this thread. I lost it!
I understood what he was saying, but just word selection after dealing with this thread. Just too much for me to deal with.
Quote: AhighThank you for the suggestions. I would appreciate it if you stopped addressing me, though. You have a tendency to say things to me that I interpret to be insulting. I would just rather you stop addressing me completely, please.
You are on a public forum. Thats not how it works. THE Onus is on you to respond. Or not. And just do it rather than fuss about it.
Quote: thecesspitYou are on a public forum. Thats not how it works. THE Onus is on you to respond. Or not. And just do it rather than fuss about it.
I assume you didn't see the post that led to ZCore being banned before G2E?
So much for the next big thing.
Quote: AhighI assume you didn't see the post that led to ZCore being banned before G2E?
His behavior in insulting me and my work has some history that is difficult to compartmentalize when listening to what he presents as legitimate feedback.
There might possibly be an axe to grind and/or some agenda to his line of questioning.
I saw it, but YOU have the power to respond or not.
I note you choose to respond to all the negative posts, but the people who have posted supportively, or suggested ideas or posed interested questions on the game are largely ignored. So be it. It's entirely up to you how you deal with your life and business. I'm telling you, much is within your power.
Quote: thecesspitI saw it, but YOU have the power to respond or not.
Fair enough.
I will focus more on the supporters. That is a good suggestion for sure.
When the fishing trawlers came in to port, the upper classes kept all the haddock and all the cod for themselves. To the Irish, they gave the crab and the lobster. That's odd, isn't it? Keeping boring old fish while giving the exotic and high value meal to the underclass.
All they saw was garbage because of the way the meat, the value, was presented. If only they knew that with a little work, that garbage would provide value beyond imagination. Had they only taken a moment to delve into it, they would find that their biggest prize has been the stuff they were throwing away.
Quote: AhighI have been feeling pretty beat up since that Bob dancer show that led to some of these comments here about the game getting a "thumbs down" by "three experts" on AP....Bob literally described our game as not being "worthy" of a show in an email to me after being beat up in this thread. I lost it!
I hope you were not rude to Dancer. The show is supposed to be gambling with an edge. From last week, he obviously felt it worthy to bring up, but there wasn't enough there to devote an hour long show to, especially for a game that isn't out there yet.
I hate to see this topic getting to you. Please keep in mind there is no shame in a self suspension.
Quote: FaceHad they only taken a moment to delve into it, they would find that their biggest prize has been the stuff they were throwing away.
I have heard stories over and over about casinos not coping well with players that win. Then there's the stories about casinos that are struggling to keep people coming back to their casinos.
The entire notion that it's not possible to "beat the game" when the game is simply to gamble and come out ahead after playing the game every day for days on end is somewhat disappointing. Most people don't know about video poker, but they believe beating slots long term is just not realistic. (IE: most people intelligent about playing games in general without knowing about AP VP). It's not just the locals market that cares about being able to come out ahead in the long run.
There are entire markets that service professionals who make a living by using refined hand-to-eye coordination rather than traditional productive tasks.
Imagine is the NFL, NHL, MLB, and other sports required that each of their players PAY in order to participate in the sport. Imagine how insignificant sports would be in our culture.
Our game allows the casino to adjust maximum player edge, hold percentage, and a variety of other variables to their heart's content. We don't know yet where the sweet spot is. But the entire idea of creating a new class, an UPPER class, of professional class-III game players is our goal.
It's not just about pinball.
It is about creating a new class of AP video player and expanding the market to include folks who, for financial reasons, don't have a sufficient monetary motivation to compete in professional class-III gambling experiences.
Quote: WizardI hope you were not rude to Dancer. The show is supposed to be gambling with an edge. From last week, he obviously felt it worthy to bring up, but there wasn't enough there to devote an hour long show to, especially for a game that isn't out there yet.
I hate to see this topic getting to you. Please keep in mind there is no shame in a self suspension.
I actually contemplated self-suspension, but I think I'm alright.
I had already made my points to Bob and explicitly stated how I felt I got a raw deal.
But I told him, "no hard feelings" and he sent some more suggestions. I don't think we left anything on bad terms, but I thought it was appropriate to let him know how I felt and that I was emotional. I have a whole lot invested into this project.
I have put six figures of my own IRA funds into the company stock; pretty much everything I have worked for my entire life is wrapped up in this company. But that is still nothing compared to the commitment that I have to making this whole thing work.
And if there is a full-length show to do on "Gambling with an Edge" it would be more about my quest to find a way to AP using hand-to-eye coordination in general. Craps just didn't have any fruit on the trees, and we are still trying to make something legitimate for someone who has some playing skill. The fantasy of throwing dice for an edge is interesting, but we want something that is real and provably real that doesn't threaten the casino. And we want a model that allows the casino, the AP's, and us (NanoTech and/or partners) to all share with each other.
AP using intellect is actually much simpler; even with the flaws and limitations, it does already exist and is nothing new. But there is a contingent of players who would like to compete with hand-to-eye coordination, and I do wish to offer something to satisfy the urge to gamble and come out ahead using that sort of skill.
The nuance and the details are interesting to the regular player who might want to get good at the game. Give that info, or make it there to discover. But not up front.
I also think concentrating on EV rather than amount to win is the wrong way around to approach it. EV is not a simple concept to Joe Blow. Dollars to win IS.
In short, simplify the presentation.
Quote: thecesspitAs I stated before, I think the product needs to be simpler. It's complex at the moment, while at it's core, there's a simple idea. But all the bet setting, EV's, dials and whistles and bells add up to make a quite complex game. That's fine in many environments, but I don't think the casino is one of them. It needs to be 30 seconds to get and play and understand the basics. All the features and details you have and are excited about don't matter up front to get the dollars into the game.
The nuance and the details are interesting to the regular player who might want to get good at the game. Give that info, or make it there to discover. But not up front.
In short, simplify the presentation.
The default is an even money bet. You get a minimum bet by default. You swipe your card and plunge.
All of the details I am covering is to explain the details of the game. But you don't need to know any of it to have a good time.
I appreciate the comments, but I don't think the game is complex for a first timer. Certainly not as complex as most casino table games that it intends to compete with. Far from it. In fact, I expect it would be the simplest high limit table game offered for most people.
And I have been contemplating this game on the regular slot floor. The problem is just that many people would be confused by it. It's really not a slot machine at all.
It may even need it's own separate little room or area somehow like Poker.
Quote: AhighThe default is an even money bet. You get a minimum bet by default. You swipe your card and plunge.
But it's not an even money -chance-. You are promoting the chance (or in fact the Expected Value) of the gamble, and saying 'it'll change if you do good at pinball. How it'll change, and how much and how fast is unknown.
Quote:All of the details I am covering is to explain the details of the game. But you don't need to know any of it to have a good time.
I appreciate the comments, but I don't think the game is complex for a first timer. Certainly not as complex as most casino table games that it intends to compete with. Far from it. In fact, I expect it would be the simplest high limit table game offered for most people.
And I have been contemplating this game on the regular slot floor. The problem is just that many people would be confused by it. It's really not a slot machine at all.
If they get confused by it, it might be complex. It is a slot machine to my view, a slot machine with a unique and very interesting feature --- my potential pay off is adjustable by skill.
Or, its a pinball machine I can get reward for based on my play.
Quote:It may even need it's own separate little room or area somehow like Poker.
That will hamstring it to a casino. The casino (probably) doesn't want to invest much in trialling the game. Unless a casino went all in with a variety of skill related games.
You are asking for a significant adjustment in the playing behaviours. The $100 price tag (regardless of the Expect Value) to try that new behaviour is very high. The behaviour might confused current players and might need it's own space.
I think all these things work against it. But flipping it around, they can all be things that are working FOR it by adjusting the presentation.
Of course, my opinion is worth very little, and is some random bloke on the internet.
Quote: thecesspitBut it's not an even money -chance-. You are promoting the chance (or in fact the Expected Value) of the gamble, and saying 'it'll change if you do good at pinball. How it'll change, and how much and how fast is unknown.
If they get confused by it, it might be complex. It is a slot machine to my view, a slot machine with a unique and very interesting feature --- my potential pay off is adjustable by skill.
Or, its a pinball machine I can get reward for based on my play.
That will hamstring it to a casino. The casino (probably) doesn't want to invest much in trialling the game. Unless a casino went all in with a variety of skill related games.
You are asking for a significant adjustment in the playing behaviours. The $100 price tag (regardless of the Expect Value) to try that new behaviour is very high. The behaviour might confused current players and might need it's own space.
I think all these things work against it. But flipping it around, they can all be things that are working FOR it by adjusting the presentation.
Of course, my opinion is worth very little, and is some random bloke on the internet.
The minimum bet is a sticking point for sure for those who view this as a slot rather than a high limit table game.
We can offer the game at $5 with a 15%-20% house edge. Ultimately it's up to the casino what the limits are, and it's not forbidden in the software to set it up for lower limits. The reason I mention $100 is strictly to get people to appreciate that this is where the game gets truly exciting for the serious gambler. The issues are similar to Baccarat. The time resolving the bet is longer and that demands a higher bet denomination for such a low house edge.
At 15% house edge, we would have to work harder to offer advantage play, and we wouldn't be able to say that the game is always advantage playable. It wouldn't be without more design work until you got to a 5% edge. 10% is possible, but not realistic that anybody could be good enough to overcome a 10% house edge with their average EV.
In Nevada 75% payback to to +5% player advantage would be possible with average 10% house edge. A 10% house edge for a two minute game would allow a $5 wager, but it wouldn't be earning much more than a slot machine.
Basically, if we don't care if the game earns more than a regular pinball cabinet or regular slot machine, this problem is easy. But we are not trying to get the most number of people to play pinball. We are trying to offer a gambling experience to the high limit gambler seeking positive EV and compete with Baccarat sized revenue and bet denominations.
(don't care if you actually do the above, but I do like to see Sigma like derby machines return)
Anyway, can't say one way or the other whether I think it will work. I liked pinball when I use to play.
The way slots are designed today, I'm pretty sure a good portion of the players couldn't tell you how the features work until they've spent some time and money at it.
Maybe a demo screen, that runs while the game is inactive would help, so people can observe basic play.
Quote: Ahigh...
It may even need it's own separate little room or area somehow like Poker.
LOL!!!
I am still curious if the game can be played while sitting. The only successful casino game I can think of where players are expected to stand is craps. Are there others?
Your killing me.Quote: DRichLOL!!!
he's thinking to small, Perhaps its own casino, he should have said.
Most people loved your game.
Did anyone ask for one?
What now?
What's the earliest we can expect to see one in a casino?
What's the plan for compensation. Selling, renting??
Quote: AxelWolfAhigh.
Most people loved your game.
Did anyone ask for one?
What now?
What's the earliest we can expect to see one in a casino?
What's the plan for compensation. Selling, renting??
I believe he said in an earlier post that they need to find a partner to manufacture the game. I know NTEK is not licensed in Nevada and probably never will be based on some of the criminal charges filed against its' principal owner. I hope I am wrong but I would be very surprised if we saw this in a Las Vegas casino within a year.
Can you PM me a link?Quote: DRichI believe he said in an earlier post that they need to find a partner to manufacture the game. I know NTEK is not licensed in Nevada and probably never will be based on some of the criminal charges filed against its' principal owner. I hope I am wrong but I would be very surprised if we saw this in a Las Vegas casino within a year.
Then explain how that works if someone else manufacturers the game yet NTEK cannot be licensed.
Why proceed if that's the case?
Quote: AxelWolfCan you PM me a link?
Then explain how that works if someone else manufacturers the game yet NTEK cannot be licensed.
Why proceed if that's the case?
Lots of slot manufacturers will license games from others, build them and then sell them. I would suspect that NTEK would ask for a daily fee for every machine on the casino floor. Ernie Moody licensed Triple Play poker to IGT and was collecting about $7.50 per day for every machine on the casino floor. I heard that at one point there was close to 16,000 of them in casino's. Do the math. A successful game has a lot of earning potential.
Quote: ThatDonGuyPinball was still popular with the teenage crowd before Space Invaders showed up in 1980 or so. Once Space Invaders / Asteroids / Pac-Man / Donkey Kong / Centipede showed up, pinball started its decline. Newer machines have a disadvantage in that they tend to be very expensive, especially compared to video games, which are themselves going into decline thanks to the affordability of home gaming systems with decent graphics.
But there's nothing new about pinball machines designed for gambling; do a search on "bingo pinballs". They aren't as widespread as they used to be, in part because authorities are cracking down on them (in California, if you are caught with a bingo pinball (and I am not sure if the "25 years old makes it an antique" exception for slot machines applies), it gets taken away and almost certainly destroyed), but if you look hard enough, you can find them. The Pinball Hall of Fame on Tropicana has one, but I don't think it was working the last time I looked (and no, they will not buy back your credits).
Question: just how does this new game work? Is it that your score determines how much of the wheel is green when it spins to determine if you won your bet or not? If so, I would expect professional pinball players (yes, they exist) to be all over this machine.
The Bingo Pinball's were in all the bars in south Louisiana in the late sixties/early seventies. It was an illegal gambling game but the machines got lots of action. It was nickel denom but in order to max out the payouts you could spend a couple of dollars a game. The max jackpot was $30. You cashed your credits out with the bartender. I played the hell out of the game.
Jim Garrison, the New Orleans whack job District Attorney who unsuccessfully prosecuted Clay Shaw for the murder of John Kennedy, met his demise when he was busted for taking bribes from the mob that controlled the machines. That part didn't make it into the Kevin Costner movie. Not long after that the feds came in, confiscated the machines, and had them destroyed.
You can get a look at the bingo pinballs on youtube.
Quote: AhighWe will be making a "for amusement only" pinball game (different theme) and the expected price per game will be very much the same as a regular pinball game.
I thought the points of "virtual" pinball tables (where the playfield is a video screen) were (a) to be able to emulate other machines and (b) to drive the cost of a pinball table down. A new, say, Shrek, or Family Guy, or Simpsons Pinball Party goes for what, $3000? A table that's just a large screen inside of a cabinet should be able to sell for much less.
Quote: AyecarumbaI am still curious if the game can be played while sitting. The only successful casino game I can think of where players are expected to stand is craps. Are there others?
Big Six. Roulette. Sic Bo. These are all games that I have seen without chairs.
Slots. Seriously. Originally slot machines lined the walls, and were meant as a distraction for the wives while their husbands did the serious work of gambling.
It was only when players starting bringing cane chairs like this one, that the lightbulb in the casino managers heads turned on and they added chairs.
I remember seeing these all over the place in Atlantic City during their early first years.
The problem with regular pinball machines was the maintenance. Bumpers when out, rubber had to be replaced, physical spinners & other parts broke down over time and you got tired of the available titles.......Vegas 2047 avoids all of this and provides a visually very real experience which could be of your favorite old pinball title or a new one they load up.
You put 50-100 titles, make it a "chose your flavor" pinball machine......I bet you can sell over 400 units to the Dave & Busters locations alone......at what $5,000 to $7,500 per unit? More, I don't know what the cost to manufacture would be, but I bet with as cool as the graphics are and the amount of folks that have a pent up demand for pinball, you could push a lot of units out the door.....1000's I bet. How may "Golden Tee" machines did they sell......you still see them everywhere.
That amusement market appears to be getting thrown out in the pursuit of the gambling market. This is a very cool pinball concept developed by a team that has a lot of experience in the recreational video gaming market.
I wish I had stopped by the booth, just got too busy during the Show, maybe on my next visit to Vega I'll be able to check it out.
Can you get to 2,500 units sold at $5,000 per unit? That would be $12,500,000 revenue and there is money to be made manufacturing a hardware/software product with that kind of gross sales price per unit.
Quote: Ahigh
Specifically, the casino cabinet is a heavier cabinet than a regular pinball game. So the tilt feature is a little bit different than for a cabinet that can be moved around more easily. Also, the casino operator can, at their discretion, disable the tilt, and play may be considered more fair when tilt is disabled as it was for the show. Tilt tends to favor a personality-type that is a little bit more muscular, and I'm not truly sure that this is an objective for gambling (to enable physical strength to determine winnings).
But, again, short answer is that we do have the technical ability to support tilt.
You have a game that enables eye-hand coordination to determine winnings. Why not have physical strength enable winnings? How about a machine that is a 225 pound barbell. Number of reps determines EV, so all the scrawny players will lose 25% of their bet and powerlifters can come in and win up to $25k on a $100k bet. Or how about a jumping machine? The higher you can jump vertically, the higher your EV. Grannies in wheelchairs will come in and dump their -25% and Olympians can come in and take their money and also promote the game with a healthy house edge guaranteed.
Sounds ridiculous, right? What you can't see is that people that are bad at this will simply not play for long periods of time and will have a horrible player experience. People that are good at this will play and take the EV off the machine and quit.
An ordinary pinball machine is not a problem, but a game of chance that can't be played by people with disabilities? That's gonna be a hard sell.
what people fail to realize is thd pinball is set up so it can't automatically drain your ball and end your game. It has to drop down the top light slots and directs it into 3 bumpers. I think it's impossible to get no points. Also I belive it can be set up to auto play.Quote: tongniQuote: Ahigh
Specifically, the casino cabinet is a heavier cabinet than a regular pinball game. So the tilt feature is a little bit different than for a cabinet that can be moved around more easily. Also, the casino operator can, at their discretion, disable the tilt, and play may be considered more fair when tilt is disabled as it was for the show. Tilt tends to favor a personality-type that is a little bit more muscular, and I'm not truly sure that this is an objective for gambling (to enable physical strength to determine winnings).
But, again, short answer is that we do have the technical ability to support tilt.
You have a game that enables eye-hand coordination to determine winnings. Why not have physical strength enable winnings? How about a machine that is a 225 pound barbell. Number of reps determines EV, so all the scrawny players will lose 25% of their bet and powerlifters can come in and win up to $25k on a $100k bet. Or how about a jumping machine? The higher you can jump vertically, the higher your EV. Grannies in wheelchairs will come in and dump their -25% and Olympians can come in and take their money and also promote the game with a healthy house edge guaranteed.
Sounds ridiculous, right? What you can't see is that people that are bad at this will simply not play for long periods of time and will have a horrible player experience. People that are good at this will play and take the EV off the machine and quit.
Video poker is a game of skill. Blind people can't play it. So why should this be a hard sell for that reason
I've been watching the NTEK stock and it seems to me it's a fairly decent company except for this division. I think they are doing well with their 4k steaming network. If anyone has seen 4k, it is amazing.
They are going to have to dump this pinball game idea for casinos and probably the whole division. It's an anchor.
ZCore13
