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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:17:00 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Quote: Paigowdan

No. Quite often it is not noticed when not allowed, which is different.



All bets made in a casino are made with casino representatives watching and caught on camera. If a player is not backed off (which represents over 90% of the time someone increases their bets as they gain an edge) it's because the casino is allowing it and agrees the information the player is using is completely legitimate



No.
It means that the casino is not noticing it or actually allowing it at their discretion or call, and may reserve the right to disallow it, also at their discretion or call. Once a bet is accepted, the casino may not renege on it, but may later bar play. In fact, the casino may use "allowed to happen" play to spot a counter, to later back him off. This is done all the time. They cannot gig you for card counting unless caught in the act on surveillance tape. This does not make AP an allowable casino activity.

In fact, a casino has to allow some card counting play 100% of the time, just in order to make a determination of card counting activity, to verify that card counting had occurred, in order to issue a back off.

This does not make card counting allowed play. Look at it this way: a car thief has to commit a crime in the first place in order to be arrested and convicted of car theft. The initial act of the car theft does not make it allowable.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:13:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It means that the casino is not noticing it or actually allowing it at their discretion or call, and may reserve the right to disallow it, also at their discretion or call. Once a bet is accepted, the casino may not renege on it, but may later bar play. In fact, the casino may use "allowed to happen" play to spot a counter, to later back him off. This is done all the time. They cannot gig you for card counting unless caught in the act on surveillance tape. This does not make AP an allowable casino activity.



You're completely contradicting yourself. All card counting is caught on surveillance recordings. Yet only a very small fraction of the time will they backoff someone. All bets are noticed by multiple sets of eyes, both on the floor and on camera. Yet you somehow try to claim that it's only allowed because it isn't noticed.

Quote: Paigowdan

In fact, a casino has to allow some card counting play 100% of the time, just in order to make a determination of card counting activity, to verify that card counting had occurred, in order to issue a back off.



Yes, but for how long and for how many times? Many blackjack players are able to sit at a table and play with an dozens (and sometimes hundreds) of times for every one time they are backed off.

Quote: Paigowdan

This does not make card counting allowed play. Look at it this way: a car thief has to commit a crime in the first place in order to be arrested and convicted of car theft. The initial act of the car theft does not make it allowable.



If a someone gets pulled over in a stolen car they police officer isn't going to tell the thief "good luck" and let him continue driving. Yet that's exactly what the casino does the vast majority of times they notice a blackjack player raising his bets when the odds are favorable.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:33:02 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

You're completely contradicting yourself. All card counting is caught on surveillance recordings. Yet only a very small fraction of the time will they backoff someone. All bets are noticed by multiple sets of eyes, both on the floor and on camera. Yet you somehow try to claim that it's only allowed because it isn't noticed.


Tom, no. It varies, and at the discretion of the casino. The El Cortez is famous for backing off people at the drop of the hat in a snap of the fingers, and other places are more tolerant. Only a small part of the time would any one regular player would see an incident, yet people who AP for a living maintain vigilance. And this does not change the fact that AP is not sanctioned play. Legal, yes, allowable, no, catch-able, sometimes, backed off, sometimes.

Quote: Tom

Yes, but for how long and for how many times? Many blackjack players are able to sit at a table and play with an dozens (and sometimes hundreds) of times for every one time they are backed off.


No, depends on where you play nd who you are. If you're a known AP player, you can get backed off readily at some places, and if you're a poor or part-time AP-er, you may be considered a ploppie and can stay a while. It varies. Again: Legal, yes, allowable, no, catch-able, sometimes, backed off, sometimes.

Quote: Tom

If a someone gets pulled over in a stolen car they police officer isn't going to tell the thief "good luck" and let him continue driving. Yet that's exactly what the casino does the vast majority of times they notice a blackjack player raising his bets when the odds are favorable.


No, but the car thief may have done it countless times, considering it a career until that point, arguing "I've never been caught" until he burns out. But the fact that he had gotten away with it multiple times doesn't make it right or allowable, except in his mind, and up until he got caught or burnt out.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:33:33 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

So, did they sign up for dealer's school, or for casino management classes at UNLV?



I tell you this:
If you know - or if you try to discern - the cards to come, then you're not gambling. AP's strive to know whether high cards or low cards are coming out next, and adjust their bets accordingly. In other words, if you know the change in odds of the hand before the hand is dealt, it isn't gambling. And it doesn't have to be 99.99%, it has to be any new advantage or disadvantage over the base game that you're privy to.

A good dice slider who can roll two Aces or a crap-12 at 99.99% accuracy, and bet that for 30:1 before he rolls, is not gambling.

Dice sliding is cheating and illegal so I reject that comparison.

And you're wrong about everything else. Counting card is gambling with an edge. Please lookup the definition of gambling.

Dealers school ? I don't get it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:39:24 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Dice sliding cheating and illegal so I reject that comparison.


It was not even argued in terms of legality, it was used in the sense that changing and knowing the odds of a hand before that hand is played, makes it not really gambling.

Quote: AxelWolf

And you're wrong about everything else. Counting card is gambling with an edge. Please lookup the definition of gambling.


Already did. And one can argue that embezzlement is accounting with an edge. And argue that it's legal if you have a good lawyer.
Look, if you change or know the odds before the play of a hand from a disallowed maneuver, it is not really gambling, what it really is, is not yet getting caught or backed off.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:54:26 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Did you try asking the dealer or floorman on this? And do you mean like on roulette? Or like craps? Or on Pai Gow Poker? Like "can you tell me what the next hand is going to be, or look like, - before I make my bet? all authorized and legitimate information, please?"

They'll tell you the odds are uncertain as they are supposed to be, because this is gambling. Trying to glean some illicit knowledge over the base game's natural odds via such tricks as hole carding, card counting, or more severe levels of maneuvers, is not authorized or legitimate information, and is not straight up gambling.

If you want to find out about a game's odds and what can influence that before a round of play, look at www.wizardofodds.com, apheat.net, and discountgambling.net. They cover it all.

Lets take the casino out of this. If 2 people make a sports bet with each other and one knows there's an injury and he has a 51% chance of winning would you claim that's not gambling?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:58:05 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It was not even argued in terms of legality, it was used in the sense that changing and knowing the odds of a hand before that hand is played, makes it not really gambling.


Already did. And one can argue that embezzlement is accounting with an edge. And argue that it's legal if you have a good lawyer.
Look, if you change or know the odds before the play of a hand from a disallowed maneuver, it is not really gambling, what it really is, is not yet getting caught or backed off.

If I play a VP machines that's 99.5% and the players card adds 1% im not altering anything. You claim that wouldn't be gambling?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 6:00:48 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Lets take the casino out of this. If 2 people make a sports bet with each other and one knows there's an injury and he has a 51% chance of winning would you claim that's not gambling?


You can't take the casino out of AP play - when it is done in and against the casino. That's the issue.

Look, to cut through the semantics and the problems with AP:

If the floorman says, "You're fine with us, play and stay as long as you want. Here's your comp, and nice seeing you again."
You're good.

versus:
"Look, buddy, you're done for the night. If you come back again, you'll be trespassed and in the book."
You're not good.

The way I see it, you're either on borrowed time or out of time if you AP the casinos.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Jul 14, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
SeekingAdvice
SeekingAdvice
Joined: Jul 14, 2016
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July 14th, 2016 at 6:09:44 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

The Wiz worked for the Sands / Venetian for a bit a few years ago.


Got me banned, lol.
rxwine
rxwine
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July 14th, 2016 at 6:28:11 PM permalink
Allowing AP is the only way casinos can't be accused of false advertising. "Winners play here."
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?

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