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TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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July 14th, 2016 at 10:35:31 AM permalink
Wikipedia is useful.
Wikipedia is not a definitive answer on anything.
Wikipedia is often full of jhit ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 10:35:57 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Paigowdan

So, did they sign up for dealer's school, or for casino management classes at UNLV?



I tell you this:
If you know - or if you try to discern - the cards to come, then you're not gambling. AP's strive to know whether high cards or low cards are coming out next, and adjust their bets accordingly. In other words, if you know the change in odds of the hand before the hand is dealt, it isn't gambling. And it doesn't have to be 99.99%, it has to be any new advantage or disadvantage over the base game that you're privy to.

A good dice slider who can roll two Aces or a crap-12 at 99.99% accuracy, and bet that for 30:1 before he rolls, is not gambling.



From Wikipedia:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice or a spin of a roulette wheel, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

The term gaming[2] in this context typically refers to instances in which the activity has been specifically permitted by law.


So, you are saying Paigowdan that you disagree with the what most of the rest of the world considers gambling?


No. I agree that the Wiki entry describes gambling, and as a basic definition of gambling.
But what the Wiki definition of gambling above doesn't address (and certainly doesn't endorse) is any prior knowledge on, or influence on, the results.

In fact, it says "an uncertain outcome." Now, using AP type of maneuvers - such as card counting and hole carding - strive to make the upcoming hand or round known, or at least mathematically more known and less uncertain, and for advantage, - which is not gambling by this definition of uncertain. You know high cards are coming before the hand is played, and you act on it, and this is not uncertain.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
darkoz
darkoz
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July 14th, 2016 at 10:54:34 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Paigowdan

So, did they sign up for dealer's school, or for casino management classes at UNLV?



I tell you this:
If you know - or if you try to discern - the cards to come, then you're not gambling. AP's strive to know whether high cards or low cards are coming out next, and adjust their bets accordingly. In other words, if you know the change in odds of the hand before the hand is dealt, it isn't gambling. And it doesn't have to be 99.99%, it has to be any new advantage or disadvantage over the base game that you're privy to.

A good dice slider who can roll two Aces or a crap-12 at 99.99% accuracy, and bet that for 30:1 before he rolls, is not gambling.



From Wikipedia:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice or a spin of a roulette wheel, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

The term gaming[2] in this context typically refers to instances in which the activity has been specifically permitted by law.


So, you are saying Paigowdan that you disagree with the what most of the rest of the world considers gambling?


No. I agree that the Wiki entry describes gambling, and as a basic definition of gambling.
But what the Wiki definition of gambling above doesn't address (and certainly doesn't endorse) is any prior knowledge on, or influence on, the results.

In fact, it says "an uncertain outcome." Now, using AP type of maneuvers - such as card counting and hole carding - strive to make the upcoming hand or round known, or at least mathematically more known and less uncertain, and for advantage, - which is not gambling by this definition of uncertain. You know high cards are coming before the hand is played, and you act on it, and this is not uncertain.



Now you are really stretching it. Foreknowledge of things to come without knowing the final outcome is still gambling. Even if its known high cards are coming, those could easily go to the dealer as any card counter will attest to. They are therefore gambling on an unknown outcome even if they have some extra knowledge of the deck.

By your definition, roulette is not gambling because I know for a fact there will be three possible outcomes (red, green or black). Just like I don't know where the ball will land, the card counter does not know who will get the good cards.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:00:09 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Now you are really stretching it. Foreknowledge of things to come without knowing the final outcome is still gambling. Even if its known high cards are coming, those could easily go to the dealer as any card counter will attest to. They are therefore gambling on an unknown outcome even if they have some extra knowledge of the deck.

By your definition, roulette is not gambling because I know for a fact there will be three possible outcomes (red, green or black). Just like I don't know where the ball will land, the card counter does not know who will get the good cards.


No.
Knowing the range of possible outcomes (red, green, or black) is not the same as having forehand knowledge of the odds of these outcomes and adjusting your bets based on these altered odds. That's different.

And yes, the good hands may also "go to the dealer." But the dealer doesn't win 3:2 when he gets a blackjack, - only the player does. That's how you get forehand knowledge before the round of play: high cards/high count means that the player is more likely to win 3:2 when the dealer does not, and this occurs before the round of play, when you raise your bets.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:14:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


This is a gamblers' forum. AP isn't gambling.



It is definitely a gamblers forum. It's also a casino games forum and a Las Vegas forum. It isn't exclusively what you decide it is
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:18:13 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

It is definitely a gamblers forum. It's also a casino games forum and a Las Vegas forum. It isn't exclusively what you decide it is


I never made it exclusive, never wanted to,
I was making it not "AP exclusive" by responding to their arguments.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:20:56 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Tell that the person who loses over 9k on a promotion. Tell that to the person who's in for 95% of the royal progressive amount and they get snapped off.



What about the person who loses even more than that trying to open a restaurant? Or even the person who loses $40 paying for a health card and then doesn't get hired? Casino games are no more or less gambling than all the other stuff we do with our lives. If the player has the advantage, it is income, the same as any other job opportunity. If the house has the advantage, it is just giving them your money, the same as anything else we buy.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:30:47 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No.
Knowing the range of possible outcomes (red, green, or black) is not the same as having forehand knowledge of the odds of these outcomes and adjusting your bets based on these altered odds. That's different.

And yes, the good hands may also "go to the dealer." But the dealer doesn't win 3:2 when he gets a blackjack, - only the player does. That's how you get forehand knowledge before the round of play: high cards/high count means that the player is more likely to win 3:2 when the dealer does not, and this occurs before the round of play, when you raise your bets.



You use the words "more likely". There are plenty of casino games that you are more likely to win on. For example, single zero roulette versus double zero. Or Craps versus slots.

being more likely to win still is gambling. As long as the outcome is unknown. And I certainly cannot believe you think that if card counter knows a deck is high card rich that he now knows he is guaranteed to win. Or that not being guaranteed a win, he is not risking and therefore gambling.

You're starting to get into hokey linguistics. Odds may vary but it is still gambling when you are unaware of the outcome.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 11:35:06 AM permalink
Gambling implies pastime and recreation.

Playing cards for jollies at a gambling hall should not be confused with business startup failures.

And no, having illicit forehand knowledge of a hand's odds is not straight up gambling.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 12:03:35 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

And no, having illicit forehand knowledge of a hand's odds is not straight up gambling.



What about having authorized and legitimate information about how odds can change from hand to hand?

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