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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 12:23:48 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

What about having authorized and legitimate information about how odds can change from hand to hand?



Did you try asking the dealer or floorman on this? And do you mean like on roulette? Or like craps? Or on Pai Gow Poker? Like "can you tell me what the next hand is going to be, or look like, - before I make my bet? all authorized and legitimate information, please?"

They'll tell you the odds are uncertain as they are supposed to be, because this is gambling. Trying to glean some illicit knowledge over the base game's natural odds via such tricks as hole carding, card counting, or more severe levels of maneuvers, is not authorized or legitimate information, and is not straight up gambling.

If you want to find out about a game's odds and what can influence that before a round of play, look at www.wizardofodds.com, apheat.net, and discountgambling.net. They cover it all.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 1:14:34 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Did you try asking the dealer or floorman on this? And do you mean like on roulette? Or like craps? Or on Pai Gow Poker? Like "can you tell me what the next hand is going to be, or look like, - before I make my bet? all authorized and legitimate information, please?"



I mean in blackjack. Every time anyone makes a bet, they are asking the casino if it is allowed. And if casino personnel doesn't tell you the bet is prohibited, the answer they're telling you is that it is allowed.

Quote: Paigowdan

Trying to glean some illicit knowledge over the base game's natural odds via such tricks as hole carding, card counting, or more severe levels of maneuvers, is not authorized or legitimate information, and is not straight up gambling.



Some information in blackjack, such as the ratio of high cards to low cards remaining in the shoe is allowed. Paying attention to the game and making the best decision is absolutely a legitimate way to play the game. Whether or not it's gambling is just semantics.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 1:40:48 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

I mean in blackjack. Every time anyone makes a bet, they are asking the casino if it is allowed. And if casino personnel doesn't tell you the bet is prohibited, the answer they're telling you is that it is allowed.


Yes. I play blackjack, betting a green all the way through a shoe, and never had me a problem.


Quote: TomG

Some information in blackjack, such as the ratio of high cards to low cards remaining in the shoe is allowed. Paying attention to the game and making the best decision is absolutely a legitimate way to play the game. Whether or not it's gambling is just semantics.


Yes and No.
I know the count when playing blackjack, but I ignore the count and I don't vary my bet size, because I don't take advantage of the count; basic strategy is enough. I play like ploppies or civilians, seeing how I'd do on basic strategy alone. Surprising, - even shockingly, - most people play generally as I do, with a few players not playing like this, and often getting a tap on the shoulder with an invitation to either play roulette or to leave, and of course to argue semantics if they wish. Electing not to wear out my welcome (and to receive such platitudes as "Danny boy, you're just too fabulous and awesome for us, please play roulette or leave..."), I just play by the rules, as well as play other games such as craps, pai gow poker, and UTH. Now, this card-count information is allowed, but acting on it is not always allowed, so I do what is allowed, and I get to stay, and I actually agree with that. For some strange and unfathomable reason, I have no compulsion to fitzsniggle a gambling hall's card game for some chump change, so I just gamble.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 1:50:56 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


I know the count when playing blackjack, but I ignore the count and I don't vary my bet size, because I don't take advantage of the count; basic strategy is enough. I play like ploppies or civilians, seeing how I'd do on basic strategy alone. Surprising, - even shockingly, - most people play generally as I do, with a few players not playing like this, and often getting a tap on the shoulder with an invitation to either play roulette or to leave, and of course to argue semantics if they wish. Electing not to wear out my welcome (and to receive such platitudes as "Danny boy, you're just too fabulous and awesome for us, please play roulette or leave..."),



Yet for the few players who play differently than you do, mostly by raising their bets as the small cards come out and the high ones remain, it is very rare to be told their bets aren't allowed. If it was much more common, then those players wouldn't be able to earn any money from their card playing

Quote: Paigowdan

Now, this card-count information is allowed, but acting on it is not always allowed



Very good to see you say it is "not always allowed," which shows that it is allowed sometimes. And I would argue almost always (over 90% of the time).
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 2:00:21 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Yet for the few players who play differently than you do, mostly by raising their bets as the small cards come out and the high ones remain, it is very rare to be told their bets aren't allowed. If it was much more common, then those players wouldn't be able to earn any money from their card playing


No. Quite often it is not noticed when not allowed, which is different.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Jul 14, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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July 14th, 2016 at 2:56:51 PM permalink
There seems to be a discussion on whether someone with information that gives them an advantage and then makes a wager is gambling or not. To me the argument is whether that information has been acquired legally. The parallel I keep drawing on is someone who studies form and makes bets on horses.

If you can take board prices or SP, and the odds for the various horses have similar EVs (or House Edge), then If you just pick a horse at random you are gambling. I think the argument is that if you study form and know more than the bookmaker then eventually you are no longer gambling. Note there's a great difference with a punter being very knowledgeable by having better contacts or similar versus another punter who perhaps breaks the law, spies on stables, tries to influence the results or has done something illegal.

Say there's a two horse race where both horses have the same chance. First scenario is where a bookmaker prices up one of the horses and is offering 4/1 (+400) instead of 4/5 (-125); this seems an obvious mistake and it seems reasonable that the bet is settled at 4/5. However suppose the bookmaker takes a view or has had bets on the other horse and offers 11/10 (+110) when others are offering 10/11 (-110); then it is fair for a punter to recognise the value and take the price [make a bet]. In this case the punter knew both horses had equal chances and has made a ""Value Bet" at 11/10. Is this gambling, betting, looking for value, exploiting the bookmaker or spotting a bargain?
darkoz
darkoz
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:02:30 PM permalink
Well, we live in a democracy so as long as it isn't ILLEGAL, I can do what I want including screwing over a casino the same way they screw over their own customers.

As for the tap on the shoulder, not doing something because you are scared of the repercussions (not including illegal stuff) is un-American. I can only imagine where we would be if people didn't fight for their rights in this country.

And yes, it is my right to AP. It is the right of the casino to ask me to leave. I choose not to let some greaseball goombahs (Godfather reference there) tell me what to do.

Trust me, Dan, when you see us tapped on the shoulder and think to yourself, hah, now they lost while I get to keep playing, it is actually the guy who got tapped on the shoulder who won. Not only will he figure out how to keep hitting that casino regardless, but anyone who intentionally loses when they know the count by ignoring it is by definition a loser.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TomG
TomG
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:10:16 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No. Quite often it is not noticed when not allowed, which is different.



All bets made in a casino are made with casino representatives watching and caught on camera. If a player is not backed off (which represents over 90% of the time someone increases their bets as they gain an edge) it's because the casino is allowing it and agrees the information the player is using is completely legitimate
darkoz
darkoz
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:12:31 PM permalink
I think we should just create the "Paigowdan AP thread" so we can argue for hundreds of pages there instead of hijacking so many threads intermittently.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:13:06 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

There seems to be a discussion on whether someone with information that gives them an advantage and then makes a wager is gambling or not. To me the argument is whether that information has been acquired legally. The parallel I keep drawing on is someone who studies form and makes bets on horses.

If you can take board prices or SP, and the odds for the various horses have similar EVs (or House Edge), then If you just pick a horse at random you are gambling. I think the argument is that if you study form and know more than the bookmaker then eventually you are no longer gambling. Note there's a great difference with a punter being very knowledgeable by having better contacts or similar versus another punter who perhaps breaks the law, spies on stables, tries to influence the results or has done something illegal.

Say there's a two horse race where both horses have the same chance. First scenario is where a bookmaker prices up one of the horses and is offering 4/1 (+400) instead of 4/5 (-125); this seems an obvious mistake and it seems reasonable that the bet is settled at 4/5. However suppose the bookmaker takes a view or has had bets on the other horse and offers 11/10 (+110) when others are offering 10/11 (-110); then it is fair for a punter to recognise the value and take the price [make a bet]. In this case the punter knew both horses had equal chances and has made a ""Value Bet" at 11/10. Is this gambling, betting, looking for value, exploiting the bookmaker or spotting a bargain?



Charlie, this is good, as a legal basis is a valid basis to look at it from one point of view. At the very least, one cannot be thrown into jail.
However, the Race Track view neglects or overlooks one aspect, mainly, that what is acceptable at the race track (in terms of pre-betting odds) may not be acceptable in the casino pit. This is because it is within the race track house rules to consider the odds before placing bets because the payouts may change, whereas in casino pit play, you may not be allowed to consider odds going into a round of play - because the payout odds on table games do not change in such a fashion.

For example, in a Blackjack game when the count and the odds of getting a blackjack are higher, the blackjack payout does not go down from 3:2 on a 3:2 game. All the floorman can do to a counter is remove the player or flat bet him, as he cannot adjust the table game payouts in a pari-mutuel fashion like we see at the track. What casinos also do is permanently adjust the payouts down to 6:5 to also account for this, (which many feel is despicable and against our constitutional rights.)

There is no book at a table game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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