Are some members paid to be on the WOV forums?

Quote: Paigowdan

And getting backed off is not a sign of illegality.
Still, I consider it a good sign that something above and beyond sanctioned gambling went down, though.

And if no backoff occurs is a clear sign that the action was completely legitimate and within the rules of the casino. Fortunately these backoff you keep talking about happen at extremely low rates, otherwise advantage play couldn't exist

Quote: TomG

And if no backoff occurs is a clear sign that the action was completely legitimate and within the rules of the casino. Fortunately these backoff you keep talking about happen at extremely low rates, otherwise advantage play couldn't exist

It generally indicates that your play is all right with the house, although it is not a guarantee or promise that anything is sanctioned or not; floormen miss stuff, and surveillance may respond later.
I agree that back offs occur a low rates, I never said they are an epidemic; they are simply part of the pit's tool kit of options. If they have to tell a player they can't play, they will.

Quote: Paigowdan

It generally indicates that your play is all right with the house ... I agree that back offs occur a low rates

Sounds like you've come around and now agree that the vast majority of times players overcome the house edge is completely within the rules

Quote: TomG

Sounds like you've come around and now agree that the vast majority of times players overcome the house edge is completely within the rules

No.
If game play is NOT within the house rules, then out you may go, and this includes actions that may deliberately undermine the casino's house edge mechanisms.

It is very possible that Casino workers just might be paid to be "members" on here. I have heard of Celebrities joining their own websites/message boards and praising themselves while posting under anonymous screen names, so anything is possible

Quote: Dean

It is very possible that Casino workers just might be paid to be "members" on here. I have heard of Celebrities joining their own websites/message boards and praising themselves while posting under anonymous screen names, so anything is possible

I doubt that.
If that were the case, I'm worth $300 Million. I can't see any sort of value or intelligence gathered at all for casino operators from WOV, but I can see a ton of value from WOO.

I am so sorry. For some bizarre reason, my computer glitched and made a duplicate post. :/ So sorry about this. :(

Quote: Paigowdan

If game play is NOT within the house rules, then out you may go, and this includes actions that may deliberately undermine the casino's house edge mechanisms.

It's like you're trying to be as illogical and contradictory as possible:
-The casino can backoff or 86 anyone at anytime for any reason
-If they don't do that they are explicitly saying that your bets are following their rules
-For The vast majority of bets made when the player overcomes the house edge there is no backoff
-which means the vast majority of bets made when the player overcomes the house edge are within the rules of the casino
-Even you have admitted that this is correct

Quote: TomG

It's like you're trying to be as illogical and contradictory as possible:
-The casino can backoff or 86 anyone at anytime for any reason

No. They cannot back you off because of race, religion, etc. They can back you off if they feel your play is unacceptable because of using AP methods, things like that.

Quote: TomG

-If they don't do that they are explicitly saying that your bets are following their rules.

No. They are implicitly saying that your current bet is in action, in play, and that you can play, unless they tell you otherwise for some [probably very valid] reason.
The acceptance of a bet to be in action says nothing good OR bad about you. If there is an issue with you, they will talk to you about it, otherwise they will leave you alone.

Quote: Tom

-For The vast majority of bets made when the player overcomes the house edge there is no backoff.

Yes, very often. Why, just the other week, I was dealt a straight Flush on Pai Gow Poker with $10 on the bonus bet. I left with a lot more money than my $200 buy-in, thereby overcoming the house edge, - by leaving with a lot more money than I went in with. I overcame the house edge and took them for hundreds, and it wasn't a problem. In fact they said to me, "Good job, Dan. Come back soon, you hear!"

Quote: TomG

-which means the vast majority of bets made when the player overcomes the house edge are within the rules of the casino.

Yes, - every time they leave with more than what they had bought in for they overcame the house edge. I'm still waiting for my next royal on PGP, and my 40-roll hand on craps.

Quote: TomG

-Even you have admitted that this is correct

Makes sense to me.

Just in: Winning on a side bet means you've overcome the house edge. Doesn't get any better than this!

Dan claims because you're an AP and have an advantage you're not gambling, however the casino has an advantage therefor they are not gambling if the casino isn't gambling and customers have a constant disadvantage, WTF is that called?

Quote: AxelWolf

Dan claims because you're an AP and have an advantage you're not gambling, however the casino has an advantage therefor they are not gambling if the casino isn't gambling and customers have a constant disadvantage, WTF is that called?

Grifting.
This Dan guy wants everyone to jump on the gypsy wagon.

The fact that Dan "overcame the house edge" shows that even he will avoid paying the "service fee". After all, what person would go to a movie theater and after watching the movie, leave with more money than he came with?

Of course, comparing gambling to paying for your seats at the movies is a completely comparable experience.

Quote: MaxPen

Grifting.
This Dan guy wants everyone to jump on the gypsy wagon.

gypsy's, Chinese, (I can't remember the other one) you're on a roll, looking forward to the next one (-;

Dan wants everyone to fall in line and play exactly how the casino want you to. I think he has a very narrow minded view of AP. Apparently you are not gambling if you have an advantage. IIRC Lion share slot was an advantage before it hit. I guess no one was gambling on that once it hit +EV status.

Instead of saying he probably misspoke and didn't really think about all aspects of AP he will defend his position to the death and come up with a ton of smoke and mirror type of drivel.

I could concede to the fact that some AP really isn't gambling.

Quote: MaxPen

Grifting.
This Dan guy wants everyone to jump on the gypsy wagon.

As a decendant of Hungarians who came to this country many years ago after WWI due to their religious beliefs, I consider this an insult and wish to see Max addressed. I would also like justice for the horrible Cher song that I had to listen to for most of the 70's. While suspensions are an option, I propose 1 hour locked in a room with Dan debating AP vs Gambling.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

And since I mentioned that there are those that one should NOT start a debate with, another relentless debater comes to mind. I think if you shot him full of bullet holes he would post from the grave. So we would solve one of the most significant and long lasting questions, "Is there an afterlife?"

I should point out that I wish no harm to the relentless, I find relentless charming at times, other times I just get tired of reading and go to sleep. I sleep a little better knowing that if/when I wake up, relentless will still be talking ;-)

There are only 2 kinds of people who post to forums, the kind that post about the subject of the thread and the kind that posts about the 'subjects' of the thread. Which kind are you and which kind is more constructive to forums.
And no, that isn't really a question.

Quote: Paigowdan

I tell you this:
If you know - or if you try to discern - the cards to come, then you're not gambling. AP's strive to know whether high cards or low cards are coming out next, and adjust their bets accordingly. In other words, if you know the change in odds of the hand before the hand is dealt, it isn't gambling. And it doesn't have to be 99.99%, it has to be any new advantage or disadvantage over the base game that you're privy to.
, is not gambling.

What? This is a personal opinion obviously because a couple of those comments make no sense.

"If you know - or if you try to discern - the cards to come, then you're not gambling"
If you KNOW, then you're cheating as in marked cards or supeman xray vision, there isn't any normal way to know the next card. Period. And trying to predict it in your mind and guessing while placing a bet is GAMBLING.

"or if you try to discern - the cards to come"
That's called predictive thinking and completely natural and most certainly gambling as you're placing risk money down hoping for an outcome at RANDOM odds you have no control over. That's gambling.

Using your logic, we would have to say that the state lotteries are not gambling because we thought about what numbers to play?

Quote: Paigowdan

Gambling implies pastime and recreation.

Playing cards for jollies at a gambling hall should not be confused with business startup failures.

And no, having illicit forehand knowledge of a hand's odds is not straight up gambling.

This could be another long thread, hopefully not highjacked. I am getting the gist from you that anyone with a modicum of knowledge about any game is cheating and not gambling to your way of thinking. It appears the perfect person for this type of gambling would be someone waking up from a 30 year coma who has no idea what a casino is and never even played bingo. There seems to be no gray area in your world.

Can we agree that bingo is gambling, or because I know how to spell BINGO I have illicit forehand knowledge thus I am cheating?

Quote: darkoz

The fact that Dan "overcame the house edge" shows that even he will avoid paying the "service fee". After all, what person would go to a movie theater and after watching the movie, leave with more money than he came with?

No I didn't. Winning by the house rules means I already paid my cover charge. I paid for the movie, and I enjoyed it this time.
This is because you overcome the house edge by variance, not by any maneuvers above and beyond the ground rules.

Quote: AW

Dan wants everyone to fall in line and play exactly how the casino want you to.

Dan would like to see players to fall in line so one doesn't:
a) get backed off
b) get ejected
c) cause poor playing condition for everybody else, like 6:5
and otherwise gum of the works
etc.

Quote: AW

I think he has a very narrow minded view of AP

I do, actually. You get slick, you get thrown out of the joint, and you don't get to play. Fully agree with this.

Quote: AW

Apparently you are not gambling if you have an advantage.

Not if you manufacture that advantage above the house rules of play..

Quote: Aw

Of course, comparing gambling to paying for your seats at the movies is a completely comparable experience.

Only in the sense of paying your way, as a customer at any business.

Quote: AxelWolf

Dan claims because you're an AP and have an advantage you're not gambling, however the casino has an advantage therefor they are not gambling if the casino isn't gambling and customers have a constant disadvantage, WTF is that called?

He'd say "Good business"

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

He'd say "Good business"

Required for business, actually.

Games are supposed to have a slight house edge, so they can offer these games to beauties like us.
Break the house rules and defeat the house edge, this service fee, - and you're sticking the costs onto people who don't pull these maneuvers. This kind of indicates that AP play is kind of selfish (which then is resolved by projecting the selfishness onto the evil casinos who are offering us these games. Think casinos are selfish? Then don't be selfish yourself, - go bowling or to the movies )

Quote: Paigowdan

Required for business, actually.

Games are supposed to have a slight house edge, so they can offer these games to beauties like us.
Break the house rules and defeat the house edge, the service fee, - and you're sticking the costs onto people who don't pull these maneuvers. This kind of indicates that AP play is fundamentally selfish.

The house edge is designed to make a game unfair, plain and simple. If I offered you a coin flip and paid you 95¢ on a $1 bet for a win but kept your $1 on a loss, you can damn well be sure people would say that was unfair also.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The house edge is designed to make a game unfair, plain and simple.

And $12 to see a lousy movie, and $5 to eat a lousy fast-food hamburger that cost 85 cents to make is also unfair, plain and simple.
If you feel it's unfair, do or buy something else.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If I offered you a coin flip and paid you 95¢ on a $1 bet for a win but kept your $1 on a loss, you can damn well be sure people would say that was unfair also.

Not if I feel lucky, and agree to enter into the gambling arrangement.
If you agree play baccarat with the 5% banker commission, you agree to pay the commission, you don't agree to gaffe the game

Quote: Paigowdan

And $12 to see a lousy movie, and $5 to eat a lousy fast-food hamburger that cost 85 cents to make is also unfair, plain and simple.
If you feel it's unfair, do or buy something else.


Not if I feel lucky, and agree to enter into the gambling arrangement.
If you agree play baccarat with the 5% banker commission, you agree to pay the commission, you don't agree to gaffe the game

I don't go to the movies. I get them FREE at the library when released on DVD. And yes, the prices at restaurants, etc., are rip offs. We all know that.

Luck doesn't exist. There is no such thing. I can also agree OR disagree with playing the casino games. casinos can do the same for me.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't go to the movies. I get them FREE at the library when released on DVD. And yes, the prices at restaurants, etc., are rip offs. We all know that.

Luck doesn't exist. There is no such thing. I can also agree OR disagree with playing the casino games. casinos can do the same for me.

Luck doesn't exist, very fine.
Variance exists. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, and I pay my fee to take a shot at it - at variance.
I don't take a shot at the business offering me the game or the service.

Quote: Paigowdan

Luck doesn't exist, very fine.
Variance exists. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, and I pay my fee to take a shot at it - at variance.
I don't take a shot at the business offering me the game or the service.

Then don't, that's fine. But you're taking a shot at the people by making these games. Again, nothing wrong with that also. I make a bet to "win", not to "play."

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Then don't, that's fine. But you're taking a shot at the people by making these games. Again, nothing wrong with that also. I make a bet to "win", not to "play."

No I'm not, I don't take shots at customers., everything gets approved by the math labs and government gaming authorities, all squeaky clean and on the up-and-up, by the rules that a few wish to break.

And I, along with the casinos that offer the games, provide them the gambling services that they enjoy so very much, Play if you want, as players make a bet to play.

Quote: Paigowdan

No I'm not, I don't take shots at customers...

And I don't take shots at casinos. I bet within the limits set and play based on what's been dealt.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And I don't take shots at casinos. I bet within the limits set and play based on what's been dealt.

Of course.
If you're good with the house and the house is good with you, then everything is fine.

Quote: Paigowdan

The acceptance of a bet to be in action says nothing good OR bad about you. If there is an issue with you, they will talk to you about it, otherwise they will leave you alone.

Exactly. And again, if they leave you alone, that clearly means you are not breaking their rules

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, - every time they leave with more than what they had bought in for they overcame the house edge. I'm still waiting for my next royal on PGP, and my 40-roll hand on craps.

Strongly disagree. Betting red or black in roulette comes with a 5.26% house edge (on a double zero wheel). That house edge exists for every single bet made, regardless of whether it wins or not. The players are not overcoming the house edge on winning spins, they pay it every single spin win or lose. To overcome that edge in roulette is extremely difficult if not impossible. In blackjack it is very much possible by changing bet size and strategy based on what cards have been removed from the the deck. Usually referred to as counting cards, I simply call it playing cards (hat tip Romes). The vast majority of times players do this the casino has no problem and agrees that it is within their rules and chooses not to stop the player from doing it. They often even give comps to these winning players at the same rate they do to players who aren't able to overcome the house edge by these methods. For whatever reason, you decided the casino is somehow wrong when they make this choice and they should instead insist that the player is breaking the rules.

Only on very rare occasions will decide their rules have been broken and backoff a player, typically by telling them they can play any game other that day. We know that these backoffs are so rare, because if they were more frequent, then earning decent money using these playing strategies would be impossible. When they do this the player is free to come back later and try again, usually being allowed to do so for a short duration with no issues. If they try for long periods after the initial backoff, they'll be 86'd from the casino and can be arrested in they return (but the casino still needs to give them a chance to leave on their own accord before a crime has been committed)

Quote: Paigowdan

Dan would like to see players to fall in line so one doesn't:
a) get backed off
b) get ejected
c) cause poor playing condition for everybody else, like 6:5
and otherwise gum of the works
etc.

I don't think 6:5 has anything to do with AP's but everything to do with casinos losing brick and mortar traffic due to online (which the big casinos may or may not be a controlling factor) and because of losses from less bodies have changed the odds THEMSELVES by their own devices and studies and are perfectly happy when people assume it's because of the AP's or players themselves.

The casinos themselves come up with the rules period. The AP crowd probably doesn't make the industry sweat.

Paigowdan, I haven't read back 2 years or more, but clearly you (1)-work or have worked for the casino industry.
(2)-Your complete defensive posturing is almost as if you OWN a casino and feel every person who walks into your casino is there to game the system. You need not respond to this, as I'm fairly certain this isn't news to anyone on this forum.

Your knowledge, if you so wish to share it, is invaluable to anyone interested in casino gambling. Hopefully that won't stop coming.

But here's one of the things that bothers me about your position in defending casinos. You have stated a few times more or less directly that card counting is cheating. This is an absolute self created rule by the casinos to force people to be zombies in their establishments. To actually state that a single person playing by themselves using their minds and mental abilities of memory, thinking to themselves, "ok, there's the third ace and my odds just took a dive so I'll pass", which is what you are SUPPOSED to do in normal play is now considered cheating. Sorry, that's pure casino bullshit. And if you believe that, then you're just part of the industry and feel you need to protect your job and such. I understand the job part.

Telling me I can't use my mind or what I can only think about is unreasonable rules. Here's what I think is cheating in blackjack: Playing any system or physical signaling with a partner not at the table, or even at the table.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. I play blackjack, betting a green all the way through a shoe, and never had me a problem.



Yes and No.
I know the count when playing blackjack, but I ignore the count and I don't vary my bet size, because I don't take advantage of the count; basic strategy is enough. I play like ploppies or civilians, seeing how I'd do on basic strategy alone. Surprising, - even shockingly, - most people play generally as I do, with a few players not playing like this, and often getting a tap on the shoulder with an invitation to either play roulette or to leave, and of course to argue semantics if they wish. Electing not to wear out my welcome (and to receive such platitudes as "Danny boy, you're just too fabulous and awesome for us, please play roulette or leave..."), I just play by the rules, as well as play other games such as craps, pai gow poker, and UTH. Now, this card-count information is allowed, but acting on it is not always allowed, so I do what is allowed, and I get to stay, and I actually agree with that. For some strange and unfathomable reason, I have no compulsion to fitzsniggle a gambling hall's card game for some chump change, so I just gamble.

So basically, only use the rules the casinos allow you with blackjack like, double down, splitting and such. That type of advantage is already controlled by the casinos, but your mind is not so you're not allowed to think. That's just the feeling I get about your hard lined stance. Nothing personal at all.

Quote: sammydv

The casinos themselves come up with the rules period.

This is what Dan is simply unable to accept.

If I'm playing blackjack and a lot of the small cards have been removed from the deck, I am allowed to make a large increases in my bets (from $5 at the lowest to over $100 at the highest). We know this is absolutely true, because if I go into a casino and do it, they'll accept the bet and pay it if I win and won't ever tell me to stop doing it. (Some players who do this too long may eventually be asked to stop, but I'll only do it for a short time, choosing not to do it over and over again in one day).

Quote: gordonm888

Well, this thread is starting to look like another 40-page Paigowdan argument about the morality of card counting. Sigh.

As the OP, I really wanted this to be about the WOV trolls who swarm onto WOV threads like flies on manure, mindlessly defend the casinos as having no incentive to cheat their customers and who try to shout down anyone who says anything negative about the gaming industry. That wasn't Paigowdan.

But this is WOV - anyone can start a thread but there's no telling where it may go.

Okay, this is on topic> I say that Dan is paid to defend casinos on the internet and forums in general as in damage control. I don't know all the history of Dan however. But from what I've read up to now, Dan is clearly pro casino and very protective of casino interests. And always seems professional and civil. I agree with gordon that Dan doesn't fit the shout crowd.

Quote: Paigowdan

Required for business, actually.

Games are supposed to have a slight house edge, so they can offer these games to beauties like us.
Break the house rules and defeat the house edge, this service fee, - and you're sticking the costs onto people who don't pull these maneuvers. This kind of indicates that AP play is kind of selfish (which then is resolved by projecting the selfishness onto the evil casinos who are offering us these games. Think casinos are selfish? Then don't be selfish yourself, - go bowling or to the movies )

So 6 / 5 JOB $5 machines are offered because of advantage players?

Slots one of the most profitable game in the casino are set at 85% is because of advantage players?

Don't be silly it's greed advantage players could suddenly disappear and the casinos wouldn't change much.

Why are Video keno machines usually set so horrible?

Quote: sammydv

Paigowdan, I haven't read back 2 years or more, but clearly you (1)-work or have worked for the casino industry.
(2)-Your complete defensive posturing is almost as if you OWN a casino and feel every person who walks into your casino is there to game the system. You need not respond to this, as I'm fairly certain this isn't news to anyone on this forum.

I'll respond...
I own game designs that are operated by these casino businesses. Same as the distributors' own in-house games. Galaxy didn't like it when Lucky ladies was hit, and neither did DEQ appreciate Dragon-7 bet being counted down. Geoff/Switch doesn't mind at all that his BJ games (Freebet, Switch, et al) work just fine as 6:5 games, jolly good there. And we are thankful that DJ Wild, while initially appearing vulnerable to table collusion, is actually quite strong and robust against that, and as substantiated by the AP math/analytical guru Steve H.. Good for Bally and SG!
But the operators themselves have the most exposure to pot shots. It's a rough business, a lot of headaches and legal liabilities, jobs on the line, all that jazz. They're running casinos houses, they're running businesses that you actually need to feed from.
We totally get that AP's don't give a flying whatever that AP drives up costs that non-AP players have to cover in the end.
We totally get that AP's have to paint the casinos as the parasites, for offering gaming services in first place, in order to justify their positions on doing AP.
Call it defensive, fine. Outside of this inner sanctum of AP log rolling, this is how the gaming business works as a business. They're businesses that rely on surveillance and game protection to survive. Game protection consultants make their living showing them how to be better at game protection, so in a sense they need the presence of AP's, weak games, and weak casino workers in the absence of strong game protection designs. My (and the industry's view) is called radical by them for reasons I totally understand. Loss prevention experts depend on losses happening.

Quote: Sammy

Your knowledge, if you so wish to share it, is invaluable to anyone interested in casino gambling. Hopefully that won't stop coming.

Thank you, that is unusual to hear! Much appreciated.

Quote: Sammy

But here's one of the things that bothers me about your position in defending casinos. You have stated a few times more or less directly that card counting is cheating. This is an absolute self created rule by the casinos to force people to be zombies in their establishments. To actually state that a single person playing by themselves using their minds and mental abilities of memory, thinking to themselves, "ok, there's the third ace and my odds just took a dive so I'll pass", which is what you are SUPPOSED to do in normal play is now considered cheating. Sorry, that's pure casino bullshit. And if you believe that, then you're just part of the industry and feel you need to protect your job and such. I understand the job part.

okay. I'm calling "justification" here.
One can argue that the use of intelligence to get ahead - even if used to skim businesses - is "using your brains." You can get a profit or advantage that helps you personally, financially, and materially with a little thought. You can get some additional satisfaction by beating the system, but being a little crafty or slick, by being on the inside track, all that cool stuff. I get it.
I explained clearly the use of obtaining knowledge, to know or to determine the result of a round of play (with money on the line), and that it is not true gambling "uncertainty" in a gambling sense because you know something that is advantageous. It tells you the odds you're not supposed to be privy to before a round of play, and you use it for personal profit, and when it is against the house rules. (Which is why they actually do back off people doing this - when they have to.)
I told the history of blackjack, that is was around for a very long time before it was known as countable, so instead of abandoning an entrenched game, they limited it to players to don't use that trap-door advantage, and bar those that do, for business reasons.
They're beginning to realize that it is better to have inherently better game-protected products than to try to manage unprotected games after the fact with back-offs, removals, and the like, with its Bob Nersesian-level legal problems. So they install 6:5 BJ, CSM machines, and count-resistant BJ clones to offer uncountable games. A better solution I think, unless you depend on running down card games at a gambling hall as a job instead of as a recreation.

Quote: Sammy

Telling me I can't use my mind or what I can only think about is unreasonable rules. Here's what I think is cheating in blackjack: Playing any system or physical signaling with a partner not at the table, or even at the table.

You can use your mind. But you cannot always act on what your mind wants to do or think is right in your POV. That's different, that's the taking action part.. When they see you jump bet from $20 to $100 with the count, that's not just your mind here. That's your hand sliding out four or more green or black chips because the count is +6, and you wanna strike. And this is quite visible to surveillance and the floorman because it is no longer "just using your mind" or "only in your mind" here, it's past pre-meditated. Now your hands and their casino chips are now taking action outside of just thinking about doing it. Believe me, if it were "just thinking here" going on, then surveillance wouldn't be able to see it.

Quote: Sammy

So basically, only use the rules the casinos allow you with blackjack like, double down, splitting and such. That type of advantage is already controlled by the casinos, but your mind is not so you're not allowed to think. That's just the feeling I get about your hard lined stance. Nothing personal at all.

Nothing personal taken.
Follow the rules of the business and house rules of the business you pretend to be patronizing, - and you'll be just fine.

Quote: AxelWolf

So 6 / 5 JOB $5 machines are offered because of advantage players?

6/5 JOB $5 is offered because people like to play Video Poker and slots.
Play the games you want, - the casino chooses its games based on what people like to play.
You vote counts, as does everyone else's.

Quote: Paigowdan

I explained clearly the use of obtaining knowledge, to know or to determine the result of a round of play (with money on the line), and that it is not true gambling "uncertainty" in a gambling sense because you know something that is advantageous. It tells you the odds you're not supposed to be privy to before a round of play, and you use it for personal profit, and when it is against the house rules.

It is ridiculous to think someone is not supposed to know what the cards are that they showed you. Based on this logic, the only way to play within the rules of the casino is to somehow un-see all the cards that came before the current hand.

Dan does make a great point that all the casino has to do is offer only games that cannot be beaten. That's what I would do if I were in casino management. But so many people who are in that position choose instead to let us play games where we can gain an advantage. They obviously have a good reason for doing that and are obviously ok with losing a little bit because of it.

Quote: Paigowdan

When they see you jump bet from $20 to $100 with the count, that's not just your mind here. That's your hand sliding out four or more green or black chips because the count is +6, and you wanna strike.

There is not a casino in the world who would stop someone from spreading 20-100 at a tc of +6. They would welcome the action and comp the player exactly the same as anyone else betting at that level (including the players who raise their bets in negative counts).

Quote: SOOPOO

This is really a ridiculous thread. Of course an AP playing a game with an edge is gambling by any realistic definition of the word.
When the AP notices the count turns his way, and has a 2% edge that hand, there are non APs at the table as well. Is the bet placed by the AP not gambling but the bet placed by the non AP is gambling? Or are they both not gambling that hand? Try and explain that to the non AP..... Of course you can't.....

Actually, the thread was started questioning if people are paid to do damage control for casinos. It was Paigowdan that came on within 5 hours of the thread starting and immediately commented negatively about AP players. I'd say that is highjacking and damage control for whatever Paigowdan's agenda or employment possibilities could be deduced to be. It was clearly turned away from the subject. Was this intentional.
Who knows.

I've seen this technique used on other threads of this site as well as others. I've also seen many members of one site totally swarm and decompose a thread in the matter of hours.
So there's that.

Quote: TomG

It is ridiculous to think someone is not supposed to know what the cards are that they showed you. Based on this logic, the only way to play within the rules of the casino is to somehow un-see all the cards that came before the current hand.

No, you can look. You can't help but to see the cards, even in a face down pitch game they turn them over. You can look, too, if you want.
It's when you track all cards and hands, and then reverse-engineer the composition of the remaining deck, and then adjust your bet in parallel with the count (all of which is visible outside of thoughts), you're doing something extra.

Quote: Tom

There is not a casino in the world who would stop someone from spreading 20-100 at a tc of +6. They would welcome the action and comp the player exactly the same as anyone else betting at that level (including the players who raise their bets in negative counts).

Not true.
Well, not on a CSM game or most 6:5 games...got a point there.

Quote: sammydv

Actually, the thread was started questioning if people are paid to do damage control for casinos. It was Paigowdan that came on within 5 hours of the thread starting and immediately commented negatively about AP players. I'd say that is highjacking and damage control for whatever Paigowdan's agenda or employment possibilities could be deduced to be. It was clearly turned away from the subject. Was this intentional.
Who knows.

I do know.
I presented the other side, the business side, and how AP is seen to a greater degree in the outside world and in the casino pits.
I know it is not a popular view, but I presented these views and arguments as views and arguments, without any personal attacks or foul language.

For that matter, if we examine some things the AP side said here, we can make the very same arguments.
Even the OP's starting thread is arguably one-sided and a bit antagonistic, claiming people are actually paid off to question the unquestionable validity of AP.

Quote: Sammy

I've seen this technique used on other threads of this site as well as others. I've also seen many members of one site totally swarm and decompose a thread in the matter of hours.
So there's that.

The technique is debating and making arguments, and falsifying arguments, without using any ad hominin (personal) attacks.

Quote: Paigowdan

6/5 JOB $5 is offered because people like to play Video Poker and slots.
Play the games you want, - the casino chooses its games based on what people like to play.
You vote counts, as does everyone else's.

LOL... People Like to play 6/5 job? No they don't, they just play them because the don't know any better. Its one of the lowest standard JOB games IGT offers on VP so the casinos put them in to rape people who don't really know any better.

Dan, I'm curious what your position is on this:

Bob Dancer has made millions by playing video poker that the casino offers with a return over 100%. Sometimes, this is directly the game itself, and sometimes, this is from a combination of play and comps which the casino offers.

Do you feel that people who seek out games within the rules of the casino that allow you to win consistenly is:

not gambling?

And something that should be disallowed?

EDIT: when I say winning consistently, I mean over the long term. Bob has won AND lost huge sums of money -- but his net is in the positive because he plays such perfect strategy.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, you can look. You can't help but to see the cards, even in a face down pitch game they turn them over. You can look, too, if you want.
It's when you track all cards and hands, and then reverse-engineer the composition of the remaining deck, and then adjust your bet in parallel with the count (all of which is visible outside of thoughts), you're doing something extra.

It may be something "extra," but it is within the rules of the casino. And they agree with me far more often than they agree with you

Quote: Paigowdan

Not true.
Well, on a CSM game or most 6:5 games...got a point there.

A CSM game can't get to a tc of +6

At tc +6 the edge to the player is less than 2% or less than $2 for that $100 bet. All the $20 bets at neutral and negative counts offset that. It's essentially a break even game. We could go to any casino in Las Vegas and bet $20 a hand until we see tc +6 or greater and then bet $100 for an hour and we would never see any heat. Care to make a wager against that?

Quote: TomG

It may be something "extra," but it is within the rules of the casino. And they agree with me far more often than they agree with you




A CSM game can't get to a tc of +6

At tc +6 the edge to the player is less than 2% or less than $2 for that $100 bet. All the $20 bets at neutral and negative counts offset that. It's essentially a break even game. We could go to any casino in Las Vegas and bet $20 a hand until we see tc +6 or greater and then bet $100 for an hour and we would never see any heat. Care to make a wager against that?

I might be willing to make a wager against that.

Let's put Paigowdan to a test.

Somehow, without gaffing a machine, Dan figures out with a mental process and perhaps a computer how to get a least 4 Powerball numbers correct every time.

1. Will Dan try to go for multi million dollar (1/2 billion jackpot) by buying up selected tickets?

2. Some other dumb thing?

Quote: RS

I might be willing to make a wager against that.

You pick the casino, I pick the table (must be 3-2). Any evening this week is good

Quote: darkoz

Dan, I'm curious what your position is on this:

Bob Dancer has made millions by playing video poker that the casino offers with a return over 100%. Sometimes, this is directly the game itself, and sometimes, this is from a combination of play and comps which the casino offers.

Excellent for Bob! He's also done well writing/speaking etc. on VP & slots.
Operators may offer > 100% RTP machines with expert strategy, and that's great promotion of the properties and products.
These games, though, in real life (IRL) aren't "fun ATM" machines, as strategy is impossible to play perfectly strategy (aside from Bob and a handful of others), and so operate -EV for the player and +EV for the house.
If the game specs are fine with operator and manufacturer (IGT, WMS, etc.), and players play it without sticking coat hangers with infrared LEDs on them into the bill slots, etc., there's no issue.
Bob's Gambling with an Edge implies expert strategy decisions and good values mostly, and all that's 100% Kosher.

Quote: doz

Do you feel that people who seek out games within the rules of the casino that allow you to win consistenly is not gambling?

No. If play is within the design specifications of the game rules and of the house rules, all is fine. If the house says your gambling is clean, you are gambling fine, even if you use strategy to the max.
I sometimes get questioned for raising 4x on J-10 or Q-7 in UTH and winning, and playing freak hand settings on PGP hands and winning or pushing an otherwise losing hand, and that too is basic strategy only and 100% fine by the house rules. On Blackjack I hit 12 vs. 2, and take insurance if I feel lucky, and not because of the count. Surveillance has always said I am always good when unknown at a place.

Quote: doz

And something that should be disallowed?

Floormen who don't know the game rules.
Security who don't know people's rights.
Floormen with low IQs.
Floormen with B.O.
Floormen who underrate players!
AP players who cause a scene instead of going to the crap table when told to do so.

...Now ask me about my turn-ons....
Good game designs
polite dealers
Intelligent and easy going shift managers who know their stuff
dealers who suit up and show up and engage players
Commission-free baccarat
UTH
Commission-free PGP
A crap table that seldom sees a 7
Fellow crap players who don't slow down the game with late bets
A good steak house
good steak house comps
etc....

Quote: doz

EDIT: when I say winning consistently, I mean over the long term. Bob has won AND lost huge sums of money -- but his net is in the positive because he plays such perfect strategy.

Yes.
Strategy is more key than schnorring.

One of the BIGGEST areas in games is for the game designer to not know or examine the strategy thoroughly. A must. Also vital is providing a very strong and easy strategy for the player on the rack card - so they can be more like Bob dancer on table games.

Clean play is also key, that's my point. Bob Dancer never used a light wand on a slot machine like Tommy Carmichael.

Wait???? What Bob Dancer professes to do is OK? And if he stands behind every student he teaches 24/7 and they all end up ahead based on promotions the casinos offer, that's OK with you?

Thanks for the answer.