Casinos don't cheat.....prove it.
Quote: beachbumbabsThanks, Fleastiff. I don't think.there's enough evidence to show a provable situation myself, but the question was asked, so that's what I have. I would estimate about 50 hours of the 250 total was at those tables, mostly before I started noticing a trend. For a lot of it, one particular casino among them had a very flashy crew, so that was offsetting some of the problems, but they corrected their problem, last I saw.
Yea, probably not enough data to prove anything one way or the other mathematically.
Do you only play when you find sloppy dealers, or just take advantage of that information when you find it? That would further muddy the waters in trying to get any conclusion from your data.
Quote: NathanThis woman seems to be kind of incompetent at her job. :/ I don't see her lasting long with her work ethic there.
She's been there over 10 years, so it hasn't happened yet! I guess nobody says anything when she overpays and then she gets snippy when you correct her mistakes. So I doubt anyone but me had the stones to speak up and say something to her.
Quote: sabreYou give numerous examples of the dealer paying players when she shouldn't yet you conclude they're cheating you. OK..
Maybe you should read carefully then, I said the dealer is cheating both players and the house. I did not specifically say she was cheating me in those over pay instances. These were examples of a dealer cheating, whether it be for or against the house, it's still wrong!
Well, that shows short term versus long term observations. Anyway it was an interesting observation from BBB albeit a short term one. Tnx to each of you.Quote: CommishI have played UTH... for 9 years ... have never noticed a difference based upon the manner of dealing.
Quote: BedWetterBetterShe's been there over 10 years, so it hasn't happened yet! I guess nobody says anything when she overpays and then she gets snippy when you correct her mistakes. So I doubt anyone but me had the stones to speak up and say something to her.
I assumed she was a recent hire. Wow! 10 years with that horrible work ethic! SMDHIS! Shaking my damn head in shock!
Quote: NathanI assumed she was a recent hire. Wow! 10 years with that horrible work ethic! SMDHIS! Shaking my damn head in shock!
There are quite a few dealers at Caesar's AC that should be put out to pasture. This one isn't that old, late 40's at best, but the indifferent attitude towards making mistakes is enough to put them elsewhere as far as table games go.
One of the many personnel problems facing CET today.
Not gonna dive deep into it, but will make some points.
8 years Dealing 2 of those as a Dual Rate Supervisor (Missouri ((Yes GC on site there, a few times the OP mentioned where is GC in missouri)) and Nevada)
Has anyone actually stopped and watched a dealer open a game before? My first 2 jobs in Missouri, the supervisor opens up 6 fresh packs of cards(prob 8 now) checks A-K for all suits and gives them to the dealers..the dealers then spread them out and also checks A-K on all suits, then turns them over and checks the back for obvious printer errors/damages..they are then washed and put in a pile to be shuffled or thrown into the machines. This is all in clear view of anyone who wants to watch..ive never turned anyone any for watching me open up a table (they cannot sit though cause i wash pretty thoroughly). At the casino i work at in Vegas, the Asst Shift managers on duty stand at a podium in the middle of a pit and opens new packs, checks the cards (both of them do) and puts them in a clear box and locks them with a zip tie for the dealer to use when a table opens, who also checks the cards.. this process is also in clear view of anyone who wants to watch...It may not be the same everywhere, but if places are replacing cards with other cards..when? For the Automatic Shuffler Machines the ON/OFF button is inside the machine, which has to be opened, its always empty (if it wasn't, then someone is in trouble)....Same goes for Craps..in all the places i worked at, the dice are all checked to be at scale, balanced and have the same serial #...the shift and supervisor usually do it together before the table opens..which is also in clear view for whoever wants to watch it.
Another thing, some casinos do have a button under the blackjack tables..2 i worked at both had the same button for the same function..and that was the fan on the table..I have never heard of a place that places buttons that the dealer presses to clock their HPH, usually surveillance or a supervisor will do that. Not to say HPH clockers dont exsist...and what happens if the dealer forgets to press it..idno.
I have replaced layouts on craps and BJ and roulette games..no mechanics, or magnets, or electric field generating machines whatsoever..the shuffler, computers, fans are plugged into a power strip which is plugged into the floor. none of them are physically connected to eachother..unless the $5 power strip is super intelligent.
There were a few other things..but i forgot..sorry for reviving this thread, hopfully it doesnt turn into 30 more pages..Some of these people arnt here anymore...
The member who made Wizard of Oz references in like every comment they made..weird.
So basically this thread is this:
I've watched blackjack and dice tables being opened.
Never been discouraged from viewing the shuffling. Aboard the gambling boats there is not much else to do until you reach international waters but eat drink or watch them shuffle. People like to guarantee themselves a seat at the low end tables and at the high end tables so the smaller gambling boat I used to go on had atleast twenty players chatting and watching the shuffling as the boat headed out to the boundary. Nothing was happening that twenty or thirty players each missed. Nothing.
Casinos can be strange places at times but they have enough of an edge to begin with and no need to jeopardize licenses with further "edge creation" practices or devices.
Quote: FleaStiffYes, its been an entertaining thread and at times an informative one.
I've watched blackjack and dice tables being opened.
Never been discouraged from viewing the shuffling. Aboard the gambling boats there is not much else to do until you reach international waters but eat drink or watch them shuffle. People like to guarantee themselves a seat at the low end tables and at the high end tables so the smaller gambling boat I used to go on had atleast twenty players chatting and watching the shuffling as the boat headed out to the boundary. Nothing was happening that twenty or thirty players each missed. Nothing.
Casinos can be strange places at times but they have enough of an edge to begin with and no need to jeopardize licenses with further "edge creation" practices or devices.
Exactly. It's all there in plain view. Most Dealers will show and explain the whole process while they are doing it.
Quote: FleaStiffCasinos can be strange places at times but they have enough of an edge to begin with and no need to jeopardize licenses with further "edge creation" practices or devices.
This may arguably be true for Vegas Casinos. But for casinos in 3rd world countries? For those Indian casinos where the tribe self-regulates with near-zero state oversight? For frontier casinos (say, in northern Canada) that have an "outpost mentality?"
If casinos have "enough of an edge to begin with" than why do they keep personnel salaries so low? Why are casinos closing?
I have never met any business man who is so fat and happy that they wouldn't elect to make even more money if they could press a button and expect not to be caught.
I do wish to amend my statement. Third world casinos are an utterly unknown situation. I'm sure you all remember that in Rick's Café the Commissioner of Police was utterly shocked to discover that gambling was taking place on the premises and that but a moment later he was handed his winnings.Quote: gordonm888This may arguably be true for Vegas Casinos. But for casinos in 3rd world countries?.
Any lack of oversight can breed shady dealings particularly when its mixed with ignorance and inexperience.
Geographic remoteness confers a de-facto monopoly which can sometimes be detrimental but I don't think its a general practice for casinos to cheat simply due to isolation.
It was a $20 minimum table with a $1000 maximum, that was handicap accessible, but it was filled by me and 4 other patrons. We started the shoe with an older Russian dealer named Irena who busted 7 of the first 9 hands. So needlessly to say, we were pressing our bets and happily enjoying her busting every hand from A-A to 9-2 to 5-5 and everything in between. After about 5 minutes, dealer change...
It was fairly young fella by the name of Xi, who also had a penchant for busting hands in unlikely scenarios and if we had to draw cards, he would give us good hands to beat his 17s and 18s. After 4 hands with Xi, they brought in a taller, younger dealer named Tuan. He dealt about 3 hands, which most of the table won including myself and another guy betting table max, when... dun dun dun! Xi comes back to the table feigning confusion about where he's supposed to be dealing.
Okay, whatever he continues to deal another 2 hands, which he busted both and guess who comes back? Tuan!!! Tuan, pretending like he was never supposed to leave in the first place, deals about 5 hands and we think we're in the clear until a young, female dealer named Susie comes to the table. Susie deals about 4 hands and I win all of them along with the other big bettor playing purple chips. Then wouldn't ya know, another dealer change!
It ends up being Irena, the first dealer who left us less than 20 minutes prior to the game of Dealer Musical Chairs where a card gets burned seemingly every 2 minutes! Sure enough, Irena has a 10 showing and can ya believe it, turns up a Blackjack!
The entire table colored up(except me and the other large bettor rat holing purple and black chips) and we all proceeded to walk away to the cashier. He cashed out over $5000 I was just under $4000 and left before anybody came up to us asking for ID.
We just looked at each other and shook our heads thinking how hard the house tried to cheat us out of winning.
Quote: BedWetterBetterWe just looked at each other and shook our heads thinking how hard the house tried to cheat us out of winning.
I would not call changing dealers, in an effort to "cool" the table, cheating but just old school superstition. This going by your version of the story. I have a feeling the Sands might tell it differently.
The people I worked with at the Venetian LV would not sweat the money like this but let the cards fall where they may as long as it was a clean game.
In the two different ways of dealing, how many straight flush or royals have you gotten when dealer cards are dealt first vs last?
I’d guess that your results variance lie almost entirely in that distribution, and that your sample size of the dealer first is probably a smaller sample also ( I figure most places I’ve seen seem to deal dealer last, as well as your reluctance to continue playing them). I also concur with hunterhill that your hands per hour is probably closer to 20-25 than your estimate of 30+, I track every hand whenever I play that game and I’ve clocked dealers as slow as 13 hands an hour, and there are far more under 20 than over 40 to be sure, pretty much only 40 with combination of 3 players or less and a dealer that can read a board and do simple arithmetic.
That being said....I’m not encouraging you to play where its dealt dealer first, I wouldn’t play a game I’m just not comfortable with for whatever reason either.
Quote: BedWetterBetterHad a fun little excursion on Tuesday at Sands PA where the house tried their best to disrupt a very favorable BJ shoe.
It was a $20 minimum table with a $1000 maximum, that was handicap accessible, but it was filled by me and 4 other patrons. We started the shoe with an older Russian dealer named Irena who busted 7 of the first 9 hands. So needlessly to say, we were pressing our bets and happily enjoying her busting every hand from A-A to 9-2 to 5-5 and everything in between. After about 5 minutes, dealer change...
It was fairly young fella by the name of Xi, who also had a penchant for busting hands in unlikely scenarios and if we had to draw cards, he would give us good hands to beat his 17s and 18s. After 4 hands with Xi, they brought in a taller, younger dealer named Tuan. He dealt about 3 hands, which most of the table won including myself and another guy betting table max, when... dun dun dun! Xi comes back to the table feigning confusion about where he's supposed to be dealing.
Okay, whatever he continues to deal another 2 hands, which he busted both and guess who comes back? Tuan!!! Tuan, pretending like he was never supposed to leave in the first place, deals about 5 hands and we think we're in the clear until a young, female dealer named Susie comes to the table. Susie deals about 4 hands and I win all of them along with the other big bettor playing purple chips. Then wouldn't ya know, another dealer change!
It ends up being Irena, the first dealer who left us less than 20 minutes prior to the game of Dealer Musical Chairs where a card gets burned seemingly every 2 minutes! Sure enough, Irena has a 10 showing and can ya believe it, turns up a Blackjack!
The entire table colored up(except me and the other large bettor rat holing purple and black chips) and we all proceeded to walk away to the cashier. He cashed out over $5000 I was just under $4000 and left before anybody came up to us asking for ID.
We just looked at each other and shook our heads thinking how hard the house tried to cheat us out of winning.
What time was it?
Quote: GlenGWhat time was it?
That was my first thought also.
Quote: HunterhillThat was my first thought also.
Usually during the last hour or so of swing-shift, people start getting their EOs and dealer shuffling will happen, especially if its an inexperienced pencil since they should be required to know what games the dealers know.
Quote: billryanPretty sharp of the pit boss to anticipate a hot shoe and have several dealers standing by to thwart it.
They are normally planned and strategized hours ahead of time. We use a psychic and time traveler to determine the right time & table
Quote: HunterhillThat was my first thought also.
6 30 pm, no swing shift, no EO or reason to play Dealer Musical Chairs.
In fairness, I was subconsciously looking for a reason to leave as I had been there since 1 pm and hadn't eaten since noon that day. So I guess they read my mind and granted my wish?
Quote: BedWetterBetterHad a fun little excursion on Tuesday at Sands PA where the house tried their best to disrupt a very favorable BJ shoe.
It was a $20 minimum table with a $1000 maximum, that was handicap accessible, but it was filled by me and 4 other patrons. We started the shoe with an older Russian dealer named Irena who busted 7 of the first 9 hands. So needlessly to say, we were pressing our bets and happily enjoying her busting every hand from A-A to 9-2 to 5-5 and everything in between. After about 5 minutes, dealer change...
It was fairly young fella by the name of Xi, who also had a penchant for busting hands in unlikely scenarios and if we had to draw cards, he would give us good hands to beat his 17s and 18s. After 4 hands with Xi, they brought in a taller, younger dealer named Tuan. He dealt about 3 hands, which most of the table won including myself and another guy betting table max, when... dun dun dun! Xi comes back to the table feigning confusion about where he's supposed to be dealing.
Okay, whatever he continues to deal another 2 hands, which he busted both and guess who comes back? Tuan!!! Tuan, pretending like he was never supposed to leave in the first place, deals about 5 hands and we think we're in the clear until a young, female dealer named Susie comes to the table. Susie deals about 4 hands and I win all of them along with the other big bettor playing purple chips. Then wouldn't ya know, another dealer change!
It ends up being Irena, the first dealer who left us less than 20 minutes prior to the game of Dealer Musical Chairs where a card gets burned seemingly every 2 minutes! Sure enough, Irena has a 10 showing and can ya believe it, turns up a Blackjack!
The entire table colored up(except me and the other large bettor rat holing purple and black chips) and we all proceeded to walk away to the cashier. He cashed out over $5000 I was just under $4000 and left before anybody came up to us asking for ID.
We just looked at each other and shook our heads thinking how hard the house tried to cheat us out of winning.
Cool story, bro.
I am not saying your story is untrue, but highly unlikely. The Sands is the only PA store I know of that doesn't sweat the money one bit. If you're going from $20 to two hands at table max, they'll absolutely back you off, but they just aren't sweaty as you seem to be making it out (changing dealers, etc.) I have literally seen a player there empty the rack twice and the floor and pits didn't blink an eye as the fills kept coming.
Quote: WizardI would not call changing dealers, in an effort to "cool" the table, cheating but just old school superstition. This going by your version of the story. I have a feeling the Sands might tell it differently.
The people I worked with at the Venetian LV would not sweat the money like this but let the cards fall where they may as long as it was a clean game.
I've seen this exact same pattern done twice before at Sands, Once at Trump Plaza in AC and Once at Hilton AC. Not uncommon or even unexpected, just have to get while the getting is good and see the Merry Go Round of dealers coming.
Can't really blame em, I guess they figured "If we can't beat em, Cheat em!"
Quote: BedWetterBetterI've seen this exact same pattern done twice before at Sands, Once at Trump Plaza in AC and Once at Hilton AC. Not uncommon or even unexpected, just have to get while the getting is good and see the Merry Go Round of dealers coming.
Can't really blame em, I guess they figured "If we can't beat em, Cheat em!"
For the record, the dealer changes do absolutely nothing to change the game. The odds of the table staying hot or going cold are exactly the same regardless of who deals the game.
Quote: GlenGForgot to ask, do they burn a card on new dealers? Not that it matters, but would be hilarious addition to your story if they did not
Yes, they do.
Quote: GlenGForgot to ask, do they burn a card on new dealers? Not that it matters, but would be hilarious addition to your story if they did not
Read it again and find your answer, see how hilarious that is!
Quote: BedWetterBetterI've seen this exact same pattern done twice before at Sands, Once at Trump Plaza in AC and Once at Hilton AC. Not uncommon or even unexpected, just have to get while the getting is good and see the Merry Go Round of dealers coming.
Can't really blame em, I guess they figured "If we can't beat em, Cheat em!"
Watch out. Next time Sands sees you sit down to play ,they’ll be prepared. There will be a different dealer for each and every hand dealt from the shoe. The entire crew from that shift will line up like sardines and just keep tapping in and burning cards until you lose or leave. They may even have an employee from the gift shop deal a hand
Quote: BedWetterBetterI've seen this exact same pattern done twice before at Sands, Once at Trump Plaza in AC and Once at Hilton AC. Not uncommon or even unexpected, just have to get while the getting is good and see the Merry Go Round of dealers coming.
Can't really blame em, I guess they figured "If we can't beat em, Cheat em!"
What's the cheat maneuver? If they really thought you all had an advantage, they could've just ordered a fresh shuffle.
Quote: heatmap@BedWetterBetter I am going to come out and say that Sands Bethlehem is the casino I go to. Let me know the next time you go, and if you are interested in meeting up I would be willing to. If not no biggie. I know you probably are saying who the hell is this guy? I am no one really. Just someone who thinks they understand how to predict and try to beat shuffle master machines. I would also be willing to explain and show you how i play or how i think the machines are actually "randomized". If not I hope you got a smile from my post. Good luck!
I’d be interested in hearing how the casino and/or the shuffle machine knows exactly where the player is going to cut the cards
Quote: michael99000I’d be interested in hearing how the casino and/or the shuffle machine knows exactly where the player is going to cut the cards
:) it doesnt matter where the deck is cut because no matter where you start playing in the deck, it counts as a new game. Burn a card? thats a game played. from what i think i know, its called sub-game equilibrium.
Precisely. Its like writing Shazzam on a piece of paper, crumbling it up and throwing it on the floor near a shooter who is on a monster roll. It doesn't make him seven out and the floor and pit should know that. The house may intend to "cool off" a hot player but that is not cheating. Switching dice or dealers is not going to do anything at all.Quote: WizardI would not call changing dealers, in an effort to "cool" the table, cheating but just old school superstition.
Dealers do make mistakes involving the rotation "road map", there are Early Out requests, even the Pencil can make a mistake but no one is trying to alter the sequence of the cards. I doubt anyone is paying that close attention to how the table is doing. People are watching that procedures are followed, not tallying up how much of "our" money is being won by the players.
Those Tray Lizards always arrive at an inopportune time and I once turned to the waitress and inadvertently took the dice beyond the rail and out of the stickman's view.Quote: GlenGNever heard of a casino switching dice on someone
Those Tray Lizards always arrive at an inopportune time and I once turned to the waitress and inadvertently took the dice beyond the rail and out of the stickman's view.Quote: GlenGNever heard of a casino switching dice on someone
Quote: FleaStiffThose Tray Lizards always arrive at an inopportune time and I once turned to the waitress and inadvertently took the dice beyond the rail and out of the stickman's view.
Well yeah that's normal. Never seen a place that makes you choose new dice though..they'll just send em back and check them. I thought you meant if you were shooting hot, they will switch them on you
Quote: michael99000Watch out. Next time Sands sees you sit down to play ,they’ll be prepared. There will be a different dealer for each and every hand dealt from the shoe. The entire crew from that shift will line up like sardines and just keep tapping in and burning cards until you lose or leave. They may even have an employee from the gift shop deal a hand
This reminds me -- when do we take ZK off suspension?
Quote: michael99000Watch out. Next time Sands sees you sit down to play ,they’ll be prepared. There will be a different dealer for each and every hand dealt from the shoe. The entire crew from that shift will line up like sardines and just keep tapping in and burning cards until you lose or leave. They may even have an employee from the gift shop deal a hand
Well Michael, I guess it might help your income to leave your post at the Gift Shop and hope for tokes at a BJ table where people were constantly winning despite house attempts to thwart it. Positive Variance on selling those sweet key chains!
Quote: GlenGThey are normally planned and strategized hours ahead of time. We use a psychic and time traveler to determine the right time & table
I have 3 psychics on staff but I cannot seem to fill my open position for time traveler. What is the going hourly rate?
