Having to tip dealers is ridiculous

"Remember, it's all cyclical."--Firesign Theater

Quote: Buzzard

This dealer actually told me to tip or else he would throw my arse out of the casino.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamingfloor/6764803679/

I took a look. Assuming Geoff's up card was the 5 he didn't advise seat 3 to double. What the heck am I tipping him for? :) :) Just kidding. Double smiley.

Do the people that do not tip at a casino not tip at a restaurant? To me, and I am not in the business, any service industry it is understood that tipping is a part of it. Do you not tip taxi drivers? How about bartenders? Cocktail waitrers or waitresses? Now I am not advocating tipping constantly, but I do feel for good service a moderate tip once in a while is warranted for dealers. Alos, while I would never expect cheating or any illegal favors, tipping can get you the benefit of the doubt on certain occasions if there is a dispute.

I generously tip all of the above except dealers.

I think people tip restaurants who don't tip casinos, but where does the line get drawn? At the cabbie? At the bellperson? at the person who cuts your hair? While many people tip these people there are just as many who don't. I think it is understood that most everyone from the US tips in a restaurant. There are industries where there is a finer line, and there are cities where it is expected and not expected. When I go to Vegas, for instance, it is a tip based economy, and I feel some things are customary to tip, that aren't customary to tip where I live in Chicago.

Quote: 1BB

I generously tip all of the above except dealers.

At least in most locales, other people make up the slack for all the AP people here who believe dealers only should get $7.25/hr. Although I have seen some Tunica casinos so slow where I doubt if they would be making more than $10/hr after tips if the casino only offers minimum wage, which is only $2.13/hr before tips in Mississippi.

Quote: Gabes22

I think people tip restaurants who don't tip casinos, but where does the line get drawn? At the cabbie? At the bellperson? at the person who cuts your hair? While many people tip these people there are just as many who don't. I think it is understood that most everyone from the US tips in a restaurant. There are industries where there is a finer line, and there are cities where it is expected and not expected. When I go to Vegas, for instance, it is a tip based economy, and I feel some things are customary to tip, that aren't customary to tip where I live in Chicago.

I tip all of these, fwiw.

I think if you don't tip a fun, pleasent, engaging dealer when at a casino you are rude and disrespectful. You are tipping for a service being provided. Same as at a restaraunt, same as a taxi ride, same as a valet, same as a haircut, etc, etc. If you do not receive good service, that's a different story, but if you just say you don't tip dealers and that's that, you should be embarrased.

ZCore13

FWIW I tip most of those too, but for instance, Vegas is the only city I travel too where I tip someone at the bell desk, then again, it is the only place I go where I have to have my bags stored at the bell desk for a while, as when I go there, I tend to take an early flight and get there before normal check-in so I can actually enjoy my first day there rather than just unpack and go to bed. But Vegas is a bit of a different town, it seems to be a tip based economy as it's big employer is in the hospitality industry. But IMO the list of things you are expected to tip for has increased in the past 10-15 years and there are some things I am not gonna tip for.

Got my hair cut today. It came to $14.99. I tossed her a $20 and got on with my day. Was it anything special*? Nope, but they do rely on those tips to make a living.

* Contains definition of something "special"

I have friends that deal. One deals poker and ones that dont tip get double raked and short changed out of the pot. Roulette dealers time wheels to hit opposite sides of where stiffs are betting and bj dealers shuffle to put aces out of the bottom. I have seen it happen for myself. Ppl forget things when they leave and when they come back, their things have "vanished". Lost things make great Christmas presents. In the long run, you are only hurting yourself. Yall be good...

Quote: jacksup

I have friends that deal. One deals poker and ones that dont tip get double raked and short changed out of the pot. Roulette dealers time wheels to hit opposite sides of where stiffs are betting and bj dealers shuffle to put aces out of the bottom. I have seen it happen for myself. Ppl forget things when they leave and when they come back, their things have "vanished". Lost things make great Christmas presents. In the long run, you are only hurting yourself. Yall be good...

LOL -- hilarious post.

Yeah, I am sure a dealer is going to risk his job and gaming license double raking a poker pot because the winning player doesn't tip him. Makes a lot of sense. And the wheel dealer who can control where the ball lands -- but doesn't use this "skill" to be a multi-millionaire, but only to punish non-tippers.

Quote: jacksup

I have friends that deal. One deals poker and ones that dont tip get double raked and short changed out of the pot. Roulette dealers time wheels to hit opposite sides of where stiffs are betting and bj dealers shuffle to put aces out of the bottom. I have seen it happen for myself. Ppl forget things when they leave and when they come back, their things have "vanished". Lost things make great Christmas presents. In the long run, you are only hurting yourself. Yall be good...

A "first post" from a forum regular.

I re-read this thread from the start...

To the person (I think it was a dealer named Nick) that said Asians are the worst tippers...that might be the case in Nevada. Asians in my market are some of the most generous players we have. Congratulations on making an assumption based on your experience in your market.

To the person above me who insinuates that dealers would cheat if you were a non-tipper...you couldn't be further from the truth. Would you care to tell me what casino this is? I'd love to call the gaming commission and let them know. We had a dealer cheating out here and they pulled her badge instantly. Performing a scam like that would be a quick ticket to being unemployed.

The whole point of these "I'm too cheap a bastard to tip a dealer" types is that there is absolutely nothing a dealer can really do about it. Dealers are required to smile and deal without regard to such things. Sure its the way a bartender can indicate he was stiffed by saying thank you sir as you leave, but dealers can barely manage something like that.

Dealers can be happy and thankful and can "reward" a player in a subtle manner by paying some sort of extra special attention but that is about it. A roulette dealer can't spin for or against tippers or non-tippers but she can count out a payout and be darn sure she is correct about it or she can delay her wave off briefly if a tipper is suddenly seen to be slow and distracted.

Tipping of dealers is the "system". Some people really do not like it, but it is the way those dealers get paid, irrespective of anyone's preferences or opinions. I have seen young men haul in their own bags just to give the five bucks to a cocktail waitress rather than a bell hop or valet parker. It is a matter of choice sometimes. It is a matter of prestige often. Think of how much it used to mean when Benny Binon greeted someone or offered them a taste of his chilli. Being seen to be a generous tipper is sometimes of equal importance. That does not mean to be "throwing tips around the whole place". It often just means being generous when it is proper to be seen to be generous. In the old days a gentlemen not only gave a coin to a blind beggar but also tipped his hat to the man. Now one must surely realize the hat tipping was not for the benefit of the blind beggar, it was more a demonstration of gentlemanly behavior. A gentlemen gives a coin to a blind man and tips his hat to him was a social rule. Its pretty much the same thing with tipping in Vegas. It is seen as the right and proper thing to do and one therefore does it. That does not mean it has to be over done or done ostentatiously, merely that it has to be done.

A lavatory attendant is tipped. A barber is tipped. A cocktail waitress is tipped. Sure, nowadays in Vegas its getting to be that everyone has a hand out but that is sort of the way the whole town works. Its not good to be tip hustled in either a hard or a soft fashion and its often up to a box man to keep things under control with his crew. The crew often realizes they've gone a whole shift with darn little going into the tip box and sometimes the soft hustle starts to get a little more overt. Sometimes new employees seem more intent on tips than anything else. There are trends and orientations that count. A Sweat The Money place is often a place where dealers have to hustle tips. Customers tend to avoid such places if things get extreme.

Anti-tippers are allowed to keep their wallets closed, but a box man or floor person is liable to make darn sure that they keep their mouth closed too.

Quote: jacksup

I have friends that deal.

I suppose this is possible, however it seems either unlikely or they've been having a bit of sport with you.

Quote: jacksup

One deals poker and ones that dont tip get double raked and short changed out of the pot.

Highly unlikely. If it does happen I would say it probably won't be happening for long.

Quote: jacksup

Roulette dealers time wheels to hit opposite sides of where stiffs are betting

If you actually believe this you won't last long around here.

Quote: jacksup

and bj dealers shuffle to put aces out of the bottom.

I'm going to have to second the motion for the revelation of where this casino is. Even when I have to hand shuffle it's typically with an audience of players and who knows how many cameras watching. I'm not too bad with my hands but I really have to wonder how I would locate the aces and segregate them to a certain portion of the deck.

Quote: jacksup

I have seen it happen for myself.

Where?

Quote: jacksup

Ppl forget things when they leave and when they come back, their things have "vanished". Lost things make great Christmas presents.

Again, how is this possible with so many cameras and other guests. I guess I'm just a chump because I can't imagine how a dealer could manage to "vanish" an item. And I don't have any friends or family members that would be impressed with some guests old jacket or whatever, not that I could get such at thing off the floor.

Quote: jacksup

In the long run, you are only hurting yourself.

I'd have to say the same about posting malarkey on a forum. But I don't get the impression you'll be staying long... at least not with this account. On this note I'd suggest the admins do some IP comparisons and see if we have a sock puppet in our midst.

Quote: jacksup

Yall be good...

The implied threat here is sickening. I think the "I never tip" people are somewhat defective as human beings, but I sure don't want anyone's money from a threat. I'd have to say you rate lower than the "non-tippers" IMO.

Sigh.

In the race to the bottom, dealers in many jurisdictions make less than minimum wage (as do restaurant servers) because the public is supposed to provide them with tips to make up the difference.

Look, if everyone tipped at a rate of say, 0.5% of the their bet an hour (which works out to about $3/hour at blackjack), dealers would be fine. And most dealers are fine. They are unskilled labor, customer service workers, similar to what you would find at a Wendy's or Walmart, except instead of serving a customer every minute, they are serving the same 4 - 7 customers, per hour. They are human automatrons, trained to deal cards in a specific matter. Their differentiator is personality, but in most casinos, tips are shared anyway, so if they are without personality but deal hands proficiently or are dealing in a game where tips are notoriously low anyway (Pai Gow), they still get their shared pool.

In Ontario, the dealers are unionized and make between $14.35- $15.85/hour (Casino Brantford) before shared tips. That enables them to have a home, work a full time job, raise children, and have a family - a living wage from basically a non-skilled job. I don't have a problem with this concept -- pay everyone enough money so that they don't have to rely on a handout from the government. Work is work, and if you are spending 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week doing SOMETHING that isn't for yourself, well in exchange for that, you should be able to feed, clothe, and shelter yourself and maybe even have a kid.

We talk about it being fair to pay a dealer $15 - $20 / hour (net) to shill cards, which is a skill that can be learned without a high-school diploma in a couple of weeks through a small investment. What a fantastic ROI.

In the grand scheme of things, the skill set of a dealer is limited, and the market of people with the skillset is huge. So we talk about $15-$20/hour being fair. Why do dealers deserve more than a McDonalds worker or Walmart greeter? Because they have a personality? So does the Walmart greeter, but we only see them for 20 seconds.

I know I am going to get flack for this. Fine.

They are responsible for a bit more than a McDonalds worker / Walmart greeter. I think $12 - $15 is fair for the average dealer. $20 maybe the best of the best.

Naw. McDonald's workers are responsible for food safety and cleanliness. Walmart greeters double up as security at the front doors and usually do spot checks on purchases on the way out. I think $12 - $15 hour is fair as a general minimum wage for everyone. If you want to reduce the size of government, enforce a higher minimum wage and reduce the food stamp and welfare programs for the underemployed.

Quote: FleaStiff

A lavatory attendant is tipped. A barber is tipped. A cocktail waitress is tipped.

Why do we tip a cab driver, but not a bus driver? We do we tip a cash cage attendant, but not a bank teller? Why tip a dealer, but not a checkout girl at the grocery store? Why tip a barber, but not a grocery bagger? I'm just suggesting that there are people we can all agree get tipped (waiters) and folks who never get tipped (doctors). Everyone in between are levels of subjectivity. I suspect folks who tip excessively feel cheated by those of us who think about who should get tipped, rather than blindly following the advice of the 'tippees' like lemmings. ("Hey! I tipped him! You need to tip him too. That's not fair!"). Seems to be the dealers themselves who are the most vocal about tipping dealers, and waiters telling us to tip 20% as "fair and accepted".

I generally don't tip when I could do the job myself, like carrying my own bags. I would never tip a guy who simply hands me a towel in the restroom, or twists a cap off my beer bottle. That's not worth a dollar to me, regardless how customary it is in that culture.

Quote: boymimbo

I think $12 - $15 hour is fair as a general minimum wage for everyone. If you want to reduce the size of government, enforce a higher minimum wage and reduce the food stamp and welfare programs for the underemployed.

A reduction in unemployment benefits means more people trying to get a job.
A higher minimum wage always means fewer jobs - a $8 job that cost the employer $12 and brought in $16 used to be quite profitable; when it pays $15 and costs $22, it's a pure loss.

Four cash registers too expensive to run now? Let's just staff two. Customers will suck it up, especially as more of them are now unemployed, so they buy less and have a lot time to spare in a line.

So, with bottom tier jobs now mostly eliminated and more people in need of one, where do you think both seekers and employers are going to turn to?
Illegal labor market. If your work simply doesn't add more than $220 to gross profit per day ($15 min wage, times 10 hours, times 1.5 for taxes and expenses), but it does add $120, you'll both agree that paying you $90 is better for both sides.

So you crack down on illegal labor, police teams busting doors and checking employment records? Fine, maybe even hire many of those laid off above for that, but you still have a problem. What's exactly your plan for the expanding underclass of people who can't get a job at the new wage, and have difficulty scraping by on now-reduced benefits?

In Canada, minimum wage is between $9.50 and $11/hour. The end result is that prices are higher in Canada. The difference is stark in the fast food industry. Across the border in New York State, a quarter pounder with cheese combo is $5.49. In Ontario, it's $7. Consumers absorb that cost and we are fine with it.

Even though our minimum wages are higher, our unemployment rates are generally lower (right now).

The illegal labor market probably is not rampant in Corporate America and I doubt that you find alot of fast food restaurants (or casinos) hiring illegals, even if minimum wage was increased. You'd see an increase in prices where the price sensitivity is the greatest. It might work towards resolving obesity if those buying fast food had to buy less ;)

Quote: PGBuster

I re-read this thread from the start...

To the person (I think it was a dealer named Nick) that said Asians are the worst tippers...that might be the case in Nevada. Asians in my market are some of the most generous players we have. Congratulations on making an assumption based on your experience in your market.

To the person above me who insinuates that dealers would cheat if you were a non-tipper...you couldn't be further from the truth. Would you care to tell me what casino this is? I'd love to call the gaming commission and let them know. We had a dealer cheating out here and they pulled her badge instantly. Performing a scam like that would be a quick ticket to being unemployed.

When dealers revel in the face of player losses and when they fantasize about players losing it says something. When they talk themselves into thinking that they can make a player lose that also says something. It says that they are unhappy with their lot in life. Just as those dealers tell non tippers not to play at their table I tell them not to deal. Instead of complaining seek other employment or go to school. Not everyone is cut out for dealing so leave it to those who enjoy and appreciate it.

All this talk of dealers cheating players and stealing their belongings is just part of their fantasy. Dealers are much more likely to steal from their employer.

" What's exactly your plan for the expanding underclass of people who can't get a job at the new wage, and have difficulty scraping by on now-reduced benefits? "

Russ Limbaugh says " Let them eat cake "

Quote: Buzzard

" What's exactly your plan for the expanding underclass of people who can't get a job at the new wage, and have difficulty scraping by on now-reduced benefits? "

Russ Limbaugh says " Let them eat cake "

Nothing can be done until the trade deficit is fixed, but nobody in power wants that.

Quote: 1BB

Quote: PGBuster

I re-read this thread from the start...

To the person (I think it was a dealer named Nick) that said Asians are the worst tippers...that might be the case in Nevada. Asians in my market are some of the most generous players we have. Congratulations on making an assumption based on your experience in your market.

To the person above me who insinuates that dealers would cheat if you were a non-tipper...you couldn't be further from the truth. Would you care to tell me what casino this is? I'd love to call the gaming commission and let them know. We had a dealer cheating out here and they pulled her badge instantly. Performing a scam like that would be a quick ticket to being unemployed.

When dealers revel in the face of player losses and when they fantasize about players losing it says something. When they talk themselves into thinking that they can make a player lose that also says something. It says that they are unhappy with their lot in life. Just as those dealers tell non tippers not to play at their table I tell them not to deal. Instead of complaining seek other employment or go to school. Not everyone is cut out for dealing so leave it to those who enjoy and appreciate it.

All this talk of dealers cheating players and stealing their belongings is just part of their fantasy. Dealers are much more likely to steal from their employer.

Not fantasy at all. 100% reality. Believe.

Quote: jacksup

Not fantasy at all. 100% reality. Believe.

It's easy to believe it's 100% your fantasy. Until you start naming names there's nothing to believe.

You may have overlooked the bit where everyone here is really familiar with casinos and the antics you describe aren't plausible and in most cases not possible.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

You may have overlooked the bit where everyone here is really familiar with casinos and the antics you describe aren't plausible and in most cases not possible.

Some things dealers CAN do:
Short Stick an attractive female wearing a loose top.
Vary the pace of the game to run over some errant or annoying player from time to time.
Warnings about 'hands' etc. that are uncalled for but meant to annoy a particular player.
Banter
Educational Comments towards certain players... (young girls, tippers, large but neophyte bettors).
Comments about a shooter's throw that may or may not be called for or may or may not be more severe than necessary.
Threats to yank the dice from the shooter.

In some places, dealers can and will "tax" a player at color-up. In most places they won't try it and certainly won't get away with it.

Usually however a dealer can't really make a guy win or make him lose. No matter how much they may have an intense viewpoint about a certain player he may leave the table rich or poor and their is little they can actually do about it. Yeah, they can overlook a few of his hardways from time to time and they can remind him of his odds from time to time and they can do a few mispays if they really want to take a risk but in general a crew can't really do much. Dealers have to Deal. Box Men can allow a crew to do more and can turn on the "Soft Hustle" light regarding tips, but usually a Box Man has to control his crew and keep the game running properly no matter what some jerk is doing to his crew's morale. In some places, no matter how light the tokes have been running, the Box must keep that Soft Hustle light dim. The crew is not really able to respond to being tipped in any manner other than being particularly watchful toward some players who have earned the crew's attention, even if they've also earned the crew's contempt. A particular dealer may think a large tipper is a fool but that dealer knows he must treat the large tipper well because his fellow dealers will see to it that he does.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

It's easy to believe it's 100% your fantasy. Until you start naming names there's nothing to believe.

You may have overlooked the bit where everyone here is really familiar with casinos and the antics you describe aren't plausible and in most cases not possible.

So, if I made up some names, then you would believe me? Just understand that it happens and will continue to happen. It's not hard at all. Raking ten dollars a pot instead of five, timing the roulette wheel to hit on one side or the other, and shuffling aces to the bottom of the deck doesnt take mensa members. Someone left a brand new ipod recently. Got picked up by the floor. Floor texts friend to come claim it. Friend comes claim it. Not hard. Either choose to believe or continue to ignore.

deleted

The pot is raked as the betting occurs. Say 1 dollar per each $10 in the pot. This usually occurs during betting rounds until $5 is
collected. The first $3 is dropped in a rake slot, the next $2 in the Bad Beat Slot. I think somebody might notice if the dealer took
another $5 after a non-tipper won, don't you ?

Quote: jacksup

So, if I made up some names, then you would believe me?

Sure, right after I verified your story. What you're talking about can't happen with any regularity without someone getting caught.

Quote: jacksup

Just understand that it happens and will continue to happen.

Just understand that I am a dealer and what you're talking about is fantasy.

Quote: jacksup

It's not hard at all.

You're right, it's not hard, it's damn near impossible. And outright impossible with your roulette claims.

Quote: jacksup

Raking ten dollars a pot instead of five,

Yeah, no one would notice that.

Quote: jacksup

timing the roulette wheel to hit on one side or the other,

Of all your claims this is the funniest. Been dealing the wheel for a couple years now and I've never seen anyone able to do what you're talking about. There are some nice roulette AP forums where you'd fit right in though.

Quote: jacksup

and shuffling aces to the bottom of the deck doesnt take mensa members.

No, but it would take one hell of a card mechanic to pull it off with a table full of players and a ceiling full of cameras.

Quote: jacksup

Someone left a brand new ipod recently. Got picked up by the floor. Floor texts friend to come claim it. Friend comes claim it. Not hard.

So, an electronic device that should never have been on the table to begin with gets left behind. The floor doesn't call security but hangs onto it to pass off to a friend. The person losing it never bothers security and the surveillance footage is never examined. Maybe in your fantasy world, but not the jurisdiction I work in. That's why I'm so interested to know where this is supposed to be happening because it flat out COUNT NOT HAPPEN where I've worked. And I've worked in two different states so I don't think it's a fluke that it should seem this way to me.

Quote: jacksup

Either choose to believe or continue to ignore.

Either pony up some info or continue to be laughed at.

It's like you've wandered into a magicians convention and are trying to convince the attendees that you know people that can do REAL magic and made pacts with the devil and everything. It reads like just so much malarkey.

There is no real way to make a player lose. Some roulette dealers claim to be able to influence the area the ball will fall in, but like anything religious there is no way to prove it. The only thing a dealer can really do is ignore basic mistakes a player can make. If the player wants to hit a soft 20 thinking its a 10 the dealer can hit it and if the player objects, they can say the hit was requested and the camera will be able to verify it. Same thing on a dice game, but it is more along the lines of the player forgetting to place odds or what not. Not tipping dealers is STEALING their services. I am sick of depending on the players to provide my income, so that is why I am getting out of the dealing gig. I would like the people here who claim not to tip to spend a year being a dealer to get a better understanding of the importance of the tokes. Sometimes people are just very selfish. It would be great if they could say "If I were dealing this game how much would I like to get?" If the tips dry up too much it won't be worthwhile for people to work as dealers and eventually there will be no more live person table games (unlikely though, there is always foreign slave labor the casinos could bus in). The worst thing about some of the examples above in regards to theft, is the dealer stealing the item is just as much of a thief as the person who did not leave a gratuity.

Nick, have you considered employment at a tribal casino here in SoCal? The dealers I've spoken with are very satisfied with their compensation and tips. I've seen dealers, on numerous occasions, turn away tips if the regular had a bad session. The majority of dealers at one casino have been there 5+ years. They mentioned they keep their own tips as well.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

There is no real way to make a player lose. Some roulette dealers claim to be able to influence the area the ball will fall in, but like anything religious there is no way to prove it. The only thing a dealer can really do is ignore basic mistakes a player can make. If the player wants to hit a soft 20 thinking its a 10 the dealer can hit it and if the player objects, they can say the hit was requested and the camera will be able to verify it. Same thing on a dice game, but it is more along the lines of the player forgetting to place odds or what not. Not tipping dealers is STEALING their services. I am sick of depending on the players to provide my income, so that is why I am getting out of the dealing gig. I would like the people here who claim not to tip to spend a year being a dealer to get a better understanding of the importance of the tokes. Sometimes people are just very selfish. It would be great if they could say "If I were dealing this game how much would I like to get?" If the tips dry up too much it won't be worthwhile for people to work as dealers and eventually there will be no more live person table games (unlikely though, there is always foreign slave labor the casinos could bus in). The worst thing about some of the examples above in regards to theft, is the dealer stealing the item is just as much of a thief as the person who did not leave a gratuity.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you that dealers rely on tips for (most of their) income. However, sweating each person's tips is going to inevitably lead you down the road to frustration. Some people just don't tip, and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't force someone to make a gratuity, that's why it is "gratuitous." Social pressure may work, as may hustling, but some people are resistant to both. I expect the toke rate at the house you deal in is pretty steady, and doesn't go up or down that much paycheck-to-paycheck. But if the attitude you have is that everybody should tip and that's why you are not getting paid more, than you *should* be looking for another profession, or at least work at a go-for-your-own house where you can be master of your fate.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Nothing can be done until the trade deficit is fixed, but nobody in power wants that.

Well when you have a government that sues Boeing for opening a plant in the USA,an environmental lobby that fights drilling and fracking every step of the way, a populace that prefers cheap junk over quality, and the most anti-business potus in history you can't expect the trade deficit to improve.

I agree AZ, I am all about paying more for quality as it is better in the long run, and the funny thing is it was my wife buying purses that led me to that conclusion. My wife will go through those $40 purses every 6 months or so as the zipper will break or the netting on the bottom will tear or the snaps will malfunction, but in 2008, we bought a high quality $200 bag and after 5 years there is not a thing wrong with it. Buying cheap saves in the short term, but costs in the long run whereas buying expensive and doing it right might cause sticker shock in the present but it will pay off over time.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I am sick of depending on the players to provide my income

Soon you may be sick of the car drivers to provide your income. And earlier it might have been the coffee drinkers (when you were at Starbucks). For me it might be the noncompliant drug addict. That's why it is called work.
And saying 'Not tipping dealers is STEALING their services' is just wrong. Many players will tip, and tip well, but only when they win. So if that player goes and loses a quick grand to the ill winds of bad luck, and chooses not to tip, you would begrudge him that right?

You tip for the service, does not matter if you win or lose. What I meant by sick of players to provide income, is that I would prefer a steady salary to a fluctuating one. I know work is work, but I would challenge all the anti-tipping people on this forum to work as a dealer for a year. Nobody ever even considers the idea of what they would want to receive as a tip if they relied on tips to pay their bills. If every dealer could bring in $100 a day we would all be happy. It only requires 20 people tipping $5. Twenty people over the course of eight hours is very doable. People are just selfish.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

There is no real way to make a player lose. Some roulette dealers claim to be able to influence the area the ball will fall in, but like anything religious there is no way to prove it. The only thing a dealer can really do is ignore basic mistakes a player can make. If the player wants to hit a soft 20 thinking its a 10 the dealer can hit it and if the player objects, they can say the hit was requested and the camera will be able to verify it. Same thing on a dice game, but it is more along the lines of the player forgetting to place odds or what not. Not tipping dealers is STEALING their services. I am sick of depending on the players to provide my income, so that is why I am getting out of the dealing gig. I would like the people here who claim not to tip to spend a year being a dealer to get a better understanding of the importance of the tokes. Sometimes people are just very selfish. It would be great if they could say "If I were dealing this game how much would I like to get?" If the tips dry up too much it won't be worthwhile for people to work as dealers and eventually there will be no more live person table games (unlikely though, there is always foreign slave labor the casinos could bus in). The worst thing about some of the examples above in regards to theft, is the dealer stealing the item is just as much of a thief as the person who did not leave a gratuity.

Unlike the non tipper the thieving dealer can be arrested, prosecuted and sentenced. What if I said expecting tips is like going to the welfare office and expecting a hand out?

What have we learned about people in the service industry? They have an incredible sense of entitlement. They look down on the people they are supposed to serve. They are a frustrated lot who refuse to do their best unless their blackmail demands are met in the form of tipping. Those not in compliance will face a dealer who will try to make them lose and who will rob them. They will face a floor who will not give them the comps that they have earned and a server who will spit in their food. Daring to ask for an upgrade will result in being relegated to an inferior room.

Do these things make one feel better? I think not because the person it's directed at will never know. That must be so frustrating. It's not like getting into the ring and giving your opponent a good beat down. That would be satisfying and fair not cowardly and sneaky. I have more respect for the men and women holding up signs at stop lights asking for money. At least they won't spit in my food. You know what? I give them money.

The public didn't put you in your job you did. If you don't like it you have a choice.

Quote: FinsRule

Why should casino customers have to subsidize dealer salaries?

A fair salary for a dealer is probably $15-$25 an hour based on experience and location. I assume that casinos now are paying around $5, and tips make up the rest. So we're talking about $15 an hour difference to make up. At a table with 7 spots, that's $2 per person per hour.

For those who say that the dealer is providing me a service, I say that is BS. I'm providing the casino with a service - taking my money.

I don't tip cashiers, I don't tip bank tellers. I'd rather not tip waiters and waitresses. I'd rather all businesses just raise their prices and pay their employees a decent salary. Casinos make money hand over fist, and they get their customers to tip dealers. They know we are idiots.

(One exception would be cocktail waitresses bringing me a FREE drink. I have no problems tipping for a free benefit)

that's it, I'm joining FinsRule. No more tipping ever again. When I lose, which is most of the time I'm going to ask the dealers for a tip. I feel liberated.

Quote: 1BB

Unlike the non tipper the thieving dealer can be arrested, prosecuted and sentenced. What if I said expecting tips is like going to the welfare office and expecting a hand out?

What have we learned about people in the service industry? They have an incredible sense of entitlement. They look down on the people they are supposed to serve. They are a frustrated lot who refuse to do their best unless their blackmail demands are met in the form of tipping. Those not in compliance will face a dealer who will try to make them lose and who will rob them. They will face a floor who will not give them the comps that they have earned and a server who will spit in their food. Daring to ask for an upgrade will result in being relegated to an inferior room.

Do these things make one feel better? I think not because the person it's directed at will never know. That must be so frustrating. Its not like getting into the ring and giving your opponent a good beat down. That would be satisfying and fair not cowardly and sneaky. I have more respect for the men and women holding up signs at stop lights asking for money. At least they won't spit in my food. You know what? I give them money.

The public didn't put you in your job you did. If you don't like it you have a choice.

This is the best non-tipper post I've ever read. Excellent job, sir.

Frustration abounds.

Nick: The "importance of the tokes" is a condition of employment. When you took the dealer classes and agreed to become a dealer, you knew that was what you were getting yourself into. There are joints that share tips where that pressure is less. When you start to blame the players for being "too cheap" it's time for you to get out. There is pressure on the gamblers too economically. Gamblers are there to having a good time while remain on a budget. The statistics show that while visitors to Vegas are at an all time high, people are gambling with less. That means that tipping will also be less as consumers become more stingy. You can't expect every gambler to leave a gratuity and you will have bad days.

Here's an idea: pay dealers more.

BB: The "comps" that are "earned" is via an unknown formula. At non CZR properties is 20-30% of expected loss. At CZR properties, it's more like 1%. All of these comps are workable via personality and relationships. They can be worked down too if the patron is an ass.

The service industry does indeed have a few bad eggs that are unprofessional. You are always playing roulette when eating out with food safety, servers and kitchen staff in bad moods, and so on. On the other hand, there are far more folks in the service industry who take pride in what they do despite the terrible salaries and pressures of their work.

Not everyone can get the best room in the hotel. Someone gets the room by the elevator. Someone gets the room with the crappy air conditioning. Someone gets the room on the 2nd floor facing the freeway. If the patron "demands" an upgrade or is rude, I wouldn't blame them for once in a while taking their frustration on them. Once in a while we get a shitty room. I know that the three biggest factors is the hotel's capacity, customer loyalty, and your short relationship with the front desk. You can be at a Marriott Platinum level and show up to the hotel to find that you made your reservation too late and they've given you a crappy room because everything else's been taken. Luck of the draw.

Don't expect much. You will be surprised when things turn out better than you hoped.

Quote: DanMahowny

This is the best non-tipper post I've ever read. Excellent job, sir.

Thanks, Dan. I agree that most in the service industry are wonderful, hard working folks that go out of their way to please. It's a great disservice to them all when a few rogues get on their high horse, whine and blame others for their plight. Enough already!

Quote: 1BB

Thanks, Dan. I agree that most in the service industry are wonderful, hard working folks that go out of their way to please. It's a great disservice to them all when a few rogues get on their high horse, whine and blame others for their plight. Enough already!

One of my first jobs in high school, I worked as a bus boy in an Italian restaurant/pizzeria. Every day there was this waitress named Susan who would whine and complain about her tips. One day she was in rare form and I asked her what she got as a tip. She told me $9. I then asked what the bill was, and she told me $60. I then told her a $9 tip on a $60 bill is 15% and exactly what she should have gotten for the expected level of service. Her reply was "yeah, that sucks" to which I told her that she should change her perspective a bit. If you are complaining about getting what you should get, you will never be happy.

Quote: 1BB

Unlike the non tipper the thieving dealer can be arrested, prosecuted and sentenced. What if I said expecting tips is like going to the welfare office and expecting a hand out?

What would you expect if you were in the welfare office, and qualified for a handout? If your pride prevents you from taking money for nothing, or your principles prevent you from taking taxpayer money but for public service, good for you, but how do either of those apply to dealers? And how can you complain about people on welfare when you've repeatedly made clear on this thread and others your standard of morality is the state?

Really, what would be the motivation for a dealer to cheat a player?

Loyalty to a casino?

It is my impression that dealers are dissatisfied these days: tips are down due to the lack of patronage, and policy changes by the casinos have impacted and angered dealers.

Quote: 24Bingo

What would you expect if you were in the welfare office, and qualified for a handout? If your pride prevents you from taking money for nothing, or your principles prevent you from taking taxpayer money but for public service, good for you, but how do either of those apply to dealers? And how can you complain about people on welfare when you've repeatedly made clear on this thread and others your standard of morality is the state?

You don't know the first thing about my morality. My wife and I support many charities including serving on the boards of some and we give generously. We don't just throw money at them we give of our time. With investments from my early success at blackjack I have never had to hold a job and that affords me the time and resources to help those in need. It is by far the most rewarding thing I have ever had the privilege of doing. A greedy vindictive dealer does not qualify for a donation from me. Sorry if you disagree but it's my money.

Nowhere did I complain about welfare so please don't imply that I did. I said "what if." The point was to suggest something as equally preposterous as the thief comment. Since you didn't say anything about that should I assume that you also think non tippers are thieves?

The casino industry furnishes its patrons with table games still staffed by human dealers. This may change. But until it does, these folks operate on the very same financial basis as restaurant servers ... The majority of their income is based upon gratuity income.

If you understand this proposition, yet you refuse to offer them any gratuity for their efforts - you take advantage of them. It is that simple.

Quote: midwestgb

The casino industry furnishes its patrons with table games still staffed by human dealers. This may change. But until it does, these folks operate on the very same financial basis as restaurant servers ... The majority of their income is based upon gratuity income.

If you understand this proposition, yet you refuse to offer them any gratuity for their efforts - you take advantage of them. It is that simple.

My whole point of starting this thread is that I believe the burden of paying their direct income should be on their employer. The only way to get this to happen is to not tip them.

If no one tipped a dealer for a month, all the dealers would threaten to quit, and the casinos would have to give them raises.

OR

What would be most likely is that the casinos would charge players per hour to sit at a table. I'm fine with that. If the casino wants to charge me $2 per hour to sit at a table game, I could choose to play or not. However, I'd rather them just not comp me, and call it even.

Quote: FinsRule

My whole point of starting this thread is that I believe the burden of paying their direct income should be on their employer. The only way to get this to happen is to not tip them.

If no one tipped a dealer for a month, all the dealers would threaten to quit, and the casinos would have to give them raises.

OR

What would be most likely is that the casinos would charge players per hour to sit at a table. I'm fine with that. If the casino wants to charge me $2 per hour to sit at a table game, I could choose to play or not. However, I'd rather them just not comp me, and call it even.

It's not about tipping; nor, sadly, do they give any of those back after you hit bottom.

Don't waste yourself on that logical ruminating. Just because you're not at the end of your useful life yet doesn't mean to merrily throw the rest of it away as were you. Focus on the black and white stuff, like this little, simple "one to one and onto mapping": guessers are losers; and, losers guess. Gambling is merely such glorified guessing. And, for that matter, there are better ways to thus throw one's life away than taking up desperate residence in some moronic and lifeless casino.

For starters, grab a shower, and go out and buy yourself a good meal. Maybe, clear your head as well. And meet up with a real waitress to tip, and with whom to begin to enjoy a real conversation.