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tringlomane
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:22:08 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Whoa! slow the bus down tring. I never said the wage (fed min) is acceptable for dealers. Infact I believe they're probably worth 18-25 an hour at the top. I just think the casino should pay them not me.



Fair enough, and I agree, but to do that, casinos have to manage themselves better, or they have been really lying about their bottom lines to us. Given current financial reports, to pay dealers a wage in the mid to high teens without tips, 6 to 5 blackjack would probably be standard for all limits, if not worse. And poker could be raked like Australia, 10% to $15 (vs. $5) max per hand...lol And I love the occasional response from a random Australian on 2+2 poker, "At least we don't have to tip!" Dumbasses...lol
rainman
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:27:07 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

So you hung sheet rock for < $10/hr, 20 years ago? I would have tried to find a better job personally. But then again, I'm a "Doctor" and don't have a job either.



Edit: too much personal info given. :)
Buzzard
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:45:17 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

I hung sheet rock for two years for less than what a dealer makes. If your not familiar this entails lifting 80-120 pound sheets all day every day one after the other. Nobody ever tipped me :) It made me strong and damaged one of my shoulders 20yrs later it still don't work right. :) Everybody always speaks as if I'm against the employee nothing is further from the truth Its the employers paying chump change and expecting me to pick up the slack that bothers me.



I have a few friends who hung sheet rock. Not anymore. They were getting $20 a square 5 or 6 years ago. Now illegal aliens do it for $8 a sheet. How many people can take a 60% pay cut ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AcesAndEights
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:46:09 PM permalink
Quote: Beardgoat

If you don't want to tip the dealer, who makes less than minimum wage and is expected to be tipped, than don't play. If you don't want to tip the waitress, who makes less than minimum wage and is expected to be tipped, than don't go to the restaurant. If you don't want to tip the bartender, than don't go to the bar.


This is NOT true in many state jurisdictions. As I posted before: US DOL Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees chart. The Feds and some states allow the employees to be paid less than minimum wage. Some states do not. Notably NV.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
MonkeyMonkey
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:46:12 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

I never said the wage (fed min) is acceptable for dealers. Infact I believe they're probably worth 18-25 an hour at the top. I just think the casino should pay them not me.



rainman, you don't seem to understand how anyone could misunderstand your compassionate position. To help, I offer this little parable of my own devising.

There was once a man who owned a dog. By all accounts he mistreated the dog. He kicked it. He neglected to feed it. Etc. Many people in the town took some pity on the dog and would give it food. But this one fellow, he felt so bad for how the owner treated the dog that he would often hop the fence and kick the dog himself, just to let the dog know that he was in complete solidarity with his plight.

See, the townspeople, they are the people that tip when they use a service for which tipping is customary. The guy kicking the dog just to be helpful, that's you.
Buzzard
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:47:52 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

So you hung sheet rock for < $10/hr, 20 years ago? I would have tried to find a better job personally. But then again, I'm a "Doctor" and don't have a job either.



Over 700 posts and not one thread. Whats up with that, Doc ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
tringlomane
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:49:44 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I have a few friends who hung sheet rock. Not anymore. They were getting $20 a square 5 or 6 years ago. Now illegal aliens do it for $8 a sheet. How many people can take a 60% pay cut ?



Not many, but it does show how inflated our economy is vs. a lot of the world. And I dunno how long it takes to lay a sheet...? Roughly an hour?
tringlomane
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:58:25 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Over 700 posts and not one thread. Whats up with that, Doc ?



Trying to set a record obviously. Didn't you see the 23-month old thread, whose thread title matched my question, that I bumped in the past week? LOL
rainman
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February 12th, 2013 at 10:58:52 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Not many, but it does show how inflated our economy is vs. a lot of the world. And I dunno how long it takes to lay a sheet...? Roughly an hour?



10-20 minutes max unless something goes wrong. Like a bad measurement keep in mind it takes 2 guys to hang a sheet most times.
rainman
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:08:27 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

rainman, you don't seem to understand how anyone could misunderstand your compassionate position. To help, I offer this little parable of my own devising.

There was once a man who owned a dog. By all accounts he mistreated the dog. He kicked it. He neglected to feed it. Etc. Many people in the town took some pity on the dog and would give it food. But this one fellow, he felt so bad for how the owner treated the dog that he would often hop the fence and kick the dog himself, just to let the dog know that he was in complete solidarity with his plight.

See, the townspeople, they are the people that tip when they use a service for which tipping is customary. The guy kicking the dog just to be helpful, that's you.



This rings true. However I notice that the dog is getting food,water, and care from the towns folk. I want to do my part as well so I slip threw the gate into the owner's house (the casino) and I kick em right in the nuts for the dog. :)
Buzzard
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:09:40 PM permalink
Plus you have to mud it too. If you average hanging 2 a hour once you fact all your time in, setting up and all, you are doing good.
$800 a week and back breaking dirty work.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
MonkeyMonkey
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:15:00 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

This rings true. However I notice that the dog is getting food,water, and care from the towns folk. I want to do my part as well so I slip threw the gate into the owner's house (the casino) and I kick em right in the nuts for the dog. :)



It would be nice if you'd spend some time elaborating on this point instead of taking such pride in kicking the dog. Because, well... to be blunt, I don't believe you.
tringlomane
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:17:18 PM permalink
And more laughs to my home state, Missouri, which is the only state in the union that pays tipped employees to the fractional cent on the hour. Tipped employees make $3.675/hr, exactly 50% of the state minimum wage of $7.35/hr. LOL at MO being too cheap to avoiding bumping the state minimum to $7.36, $7.40/hr, or even $7.50/hr to avoid this. But small kudos for them to being > $2.13/hr for tipped employees, which at least 12 states in the US still pay $2.13/hr, according to Aces&Eights's link.
NicksGamingStuff
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:23:37 PM permalink
how can I change these laws? I want who ever decided 2.13 an hour plus tips is doable to spend a.year doing it.
rainman
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:26:23 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

It would be nice if you'd spend some time elaborating on this point instead of taking such pride in kicking the dog. Because, well... to be blunt, I don't believe you.



I would love to make you a believer. I just can't see anything in it for me. In fact Providing you with the proof it would take to convince you, financial records, let you come on a run with me and observe, well would seem like a stupid move on my part -EV. It's best if no one believes me.
tringlomane
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:42:13 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

how can I change these laws? I want who ever decided 2.13 an hour plus tips is doable to spend a.year doing it.



I'm pretty sure the $2.13/hr thing was decided in the 80's. But you deal in Nevada, so at least it doesn't directly apply to you. :) The federal minimum wage for tipped workers has been frozen since 1989, when the federal minimum wage was $4.25/hr, and tipped employees were guaranteed 50% of that wage before tips ($2.13/hr). Apparently my home state kept that rule to this day precisely compared to its state wage, hence the half-cent now ($3.675/hr)...lol, but many Southern states have not followed this old rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act
sodawater
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February 12th, 2013 at 11:53:30 PM permalink
I dunno about table games dealers who pool their tips, but poker dealers who go for their own seem to make out really well. In the games I play, the poker dealers typically drop at least $20 per half into their toke boxes. Added to their regular wage, that's almost $50 an hour. That doesn't even include the aberrations where a clueless 2-5 NLHE player tips $20 for a $200 pot, which happens regularly.

I have been behind dealers on line at the cage cashing out full racks of red more times than I can count.

I am not saying they don't deserve it, because it's a tough job. But I am saying they do very, very well, better than you'd think.

The only problem I have with the poker dealers W/R/T tips is when they complain about a $1 toke. This is because they are conditioned to expect more. If they're out in the main room dealing 1-2 and 2-5 NLHE with the bros and the drunks and the people trying to show off, they usually get at least $2-$3 per pot, and their boxes are full of redbirds.

Then they rotate into the high-limit room, and they know they can expect exactly $0 or $1 per pot, every time, with no possibility of a $5 toke. Because players in that room are either pros or at least regulars who understand that any poker player who tips a redbird for a $200 pot every time will quickly be too broke to play the game.

I was in a $10-$20 limit game the other day, and won 4 straight pots for maybe $800 total. I tipped exactly $1 each pot, and after the fourth the dealer actually said I should be tipping reds. I'm sorry, but if I did that, I couldn't afford to play, and if everyone did that, there wouldn't be any 10-20 limit games for you to deal.

A lot of players would have stiffed the dealer after that, but I continued to tip $1 because he was an excellent dealer and kept the game moving.
tringlomane
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February 13th, 2013 at 12:43:15 AM permalink
I rarely play NL, mostly 3/6 or 4/8 limit holdem or O8, and they will still average about $20/hr even with those games. If they actually get an average of $2/hand for 1/2 to 2/5NL, that's easily $50/hr, so they should STFU about tips. I don't really expect $50/hr doing an engineering job, if I get that, great, but if I didn't I wouldn't complain about it. Table game dealers in STL get $20/hr at the very most.
PGBuster
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February 13th, 2013 at 1:50:52 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

A lot of players would have stiffed the dealer after that, but I continued to tip $1 because he was an excellent dealer and kept the game moving.

In Colorado, hard hustling for tips is against the law.

We also cash our boxes out of the public view. I think its fair to say I average about $250/night. Some nights are better, some nights are worse. With the $100 statutory maximum, it makes for a very interesting gaming climate.
Flynn
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February 13th, 2013 at 3:52:39 AM permalink
I know what's going to happen, namely exactly as here in The Netherlands. In the Dutch casinos (which are all owned by the state) you have to pay an entrance fee of 5 euros the first 4 times you visit the casino. You have to pay for all drinks and food unless you're playing in the high limit lounge. Al BJ games have a 10 Euro minimum and are dealt from a continous shuffler. Mini-baccarat has a 10-20 euro minimum. Even Caribbean Stud has a 10 euro minimum. Roulette has 2.50 euro inside/5 euro outside minimums. Slots have a payback percentage of 92% and the best video poker 96%. Basically the games are like in a Strip Casino without the service.

That's going to happen if the casino pays the dealers a normal wage. Tighten up the games, cutting services and raising the minimums. You're better off tipping $2 an hour!
My favorite bet: Double Down!
1BB
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February 13th, 2013 at 4:19:57 AM permalink
Okay dealers, here's your chance to enlighten us.

By what method and how much should a player tip? Be specific. Should it be a percentage of a win? What percentage? Should it be an hourly rate? How much? Should tipping be done at the beginning of play, the end of play or both? How about bets for the dealers? What is expected when a side bet or jackpot is won? Should that be in addition to other tipping? Why do players get a pass from tipping because they didn't win? Did they not get their entertainment? Did you not provide them with a service? How are they different from someone like me who doesn't tip at all?

Your turn players. Same questions. The one I'm most interested in is how you justify stiffing the dealer because you didn't win. You got the service, you got the entertainment, you just didn't get the luck. I've asked this question a few times and have never gotten a response. Are you blaming the dealer for your loss? Are you punishing the dealer? It seem to me that anyone gambling at a casino could put a few bucks aside for tips. You don't have to lose your last dollar.

It's not uncommon to see players who are clueless about tipping through no fault of their own. They feel awkward or embarrassed. They don't quite know how to do it and may be afraid to ask. Hopefully your responses will shed some light on this to the betterment of all.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
FleaStiff
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February 13th, 2013 at 5:06:48 AM permalink
I don't know about this " should " stuff.
You are asking dealers about what the tipping situation "should" be but you know darn well you would never ask for a dealer consensus on House Edge, Playing Strategy or just about anything else. Dealers are a diverse group with a variety of training and experience.

Now if you want a "real world" focus, a dealer does virtually zilch to bring customers into a casino. He may do alot to keep customers in the casino and to bring them back to the casino, but he has almost no influence on the initial entry into the casino. Some of those players have been winning. Yes, it does happen. That is why players keep coming back! These people have the temporary status of "winners" and can take their "winnings" a/k/a "loans" to any other casino at any time for any reason.

Casino owners who have gone to a great deal of trouble to cultivate a good relationship with a customer in the hopes that he will repay his "loan" at their casino rather than elsewhere would be well advised to keep the dealers happy. Without happy dealers do you really think you are going to have happy players?

Now we can discuss history and sociology and economics and ethics all you want to. We can utterly dissect the practice of tipping once and for all but the important thing is that Vegas is a town that is very much located in the Here And Now! So the history of tipping is bunk! (Henry Ford term). The reality is that the dealer want that tip money! Do dealers despise people who tip? Perhaps. So what? They don't despise the tip, itself. The town is built on tips, everyone knows it.

Do some dealers work in grind joints and sweat the money joints wherein tip policies are less than generous? Sure. Will there past experiences affect the views they express? Sure. Some dealers work in great environments and have nothing but good managerial interactions involving tips. The feedback will always be "mixed".

Some players tip for karma, for fun, for prestige, for ... nothing. Some tip big for the service received and much bigger if they are winning. Dealers know this. That is why dealers scramble for tips.
NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:08:41 AM permalink
Here is my opinion on this matter:

Quote: 1BB


By what method and how much should a player tip? One or two chips of the average color (or amount since someone could do 20 red chips at a time) they are playing every hour or so.

Be specific. Should it be a percentage of a win? Not on a standard table game.

What percentage? Should it be an hourly rate? How much? There is no real specific formula, but like I said above tipping that amount will make the dealer feel appreciated.

Should tipping be done at the beginning of play, the end of play or both? How about bets for the dealers?- During play is best, maybe splitting the average color you are playing into the next lower. Such as if you are playing quarters start with a couple nickel bets for the dealer. Maybe toss an average color bet to the dealer at the end?


What is expected when a side bet or jackpot is won? 5% to 10% would be appreciated. It does not really hurt you to share, you are still leaving with a large win.

Should that be in addition to other tipping? If you hit a jackpot and tip 5 to 10% off a win the dealer will not hope that you give more.

Why do players get a pass from tipping because they didn't win? Did they not get their entertainment? Did you not provide them with a service? How are they different from someone like me who doesn't tip at all? They are not. When you play you are using the services of a dealer. If you win or lose the gratuity is part of the cost.



I know how expensive gambling is, and how these answers can seem like a lot of money. If you are playing $5 a hand for an hour, sharing five or ten bucks, which is maybe 1 or 2 hands out of the 70 or more you would play is not that bad. Sometimes the dealers can catch mistakes you may make, assist you with play to the best of their knowledge, flag down cocktail waitresses, and remember casinos have break rooms and the dealers talk to the hosts and floor people during their breaks. Better comp's can happen if the dealer says this player is really generous and nice we should take extra care of them.
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:22:56 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:40:14 AM permalink
If you worked on some kind of commission or bonus based salary how would you feel if your company stiffed you on that?
MakingBook
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:42:08 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Your turn players. Same questions.



I strongly disagree with any tipping policy that is tied to a players wins or losses.
So, I use the same tipping formula whether I'm winning or losing:

Hours played x avg bet x ZERO = dealer tip.

The ZERO is an important part of my formula. Where did I get the zero?

ZERO times I ask the dealer to flag down a cocktail waitress,
ZERO times I ask the dealer to entertain me at the table,
ZERO times I ask the dealer for basic strategy advice,
Wait, there's more, but I need to pause until I stop laughing about asking the dealer for basic strategy advice.
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-
-
Sorry, I don't think I'm going to stop laughing anytime soon, I must stop here.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:49:45 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
FleaStiff
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:59:38 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Don't get me wrong, you dealers, wait staff, etc. deserve better pay. But as some others have stated, it should come from the employer, not me. Casino owners are making cash hand over fist, I'm not!

Agreed, but you are not faced with the ability to compel casino owners to pay the dealers in a different manner and your refusal to tip, for any reason, will not influence the casino owner one bit.

The dealers can make it a more pleasant experience for you, give you advice, engage in social banter, watch out for any errors you might make, etc. but its not a question of salaries for dealers or not based on anyone's tip.
1BB
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:01:40 AM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

I strongly disagree with any tipping policy that is tied to a players wins or losses.
So, I use the same tipping formula whether I'm winning or losing:

Hours played x avg bet x ZERO = dealer tip.

The ZERO is an important part of my formula. Where did I get the zero?

ZERO times I ask the dealer to flag down a cocktail waitress,
ZERO times I ask the dealer to entertain me at the table,
ZERO times I ask the dealer for basic strategy advice,
Wait, there's more, but I need to pause until I stop laughing about asking the dealer for basic strategy advice.
-
-
-
Sorry, I don't think I'm going to stop laughing anytime soon, I must stop here.



MakingBook, there are two of us reading this and we're both laughing our heads off. Guys like us who never tip are at least up front about it. We don't slink away from the table or make any excuses. I don't tip because I don't feel that they deserve it. I'm only speaking to blackjack because that's all I play. Maybe I would feel differently if I played another game. Nah...
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:03:56 AM permalink
Please stop playing table games. Just stop. Try the internet gambling, or the blackjack on the game king machines. Those deal faster than any dealer can, they dont make mistakes, or hope to make money to live on.
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:10:48 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:12:00 AM permalink
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Mosca
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:29:02 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Okay dealers, here's your chance to enlighten us. Your turn players. Same questions. The one I'm most interested in is how you justify stiffing the dealer because you didn't win. You got the service, you got the entertainment, you just didn't get the luck. I've asked this question a few times and have never gotten a response. Are you blaming the dealer for your loss? Are you punishing the dealer? It seem to me that anyone gambling at a casino could put a few bucks aside for tips. You don't have to lose your last dollar.

It's not uncommon to see players who are clueless about tipping through no fault of their own. They feel awkward or embarrassed. They don't quite know how to do it and may be afraid to ask. Hopefully your responses will shed some light on this to the betterment of all.



Here's what I do.

My very first bet at the table, I include a $5 bet for the dealer. Then, during play, if I get up a couple hundred I'll make another bet for the dealer. On the second one, I'll ask if he/she prefers the bet or a straight tip. If the variance continues positively, an hour or so later I'll do it again. If I'm playing a carnival game and get a super hit, I'll tip a quarter. At the end of the play, if I have a spare $5 chip I'll tip it, win or lose.

This is one of the things that makes playing enjoyable for me. I work hard at my job and make a good living. Gambling is a service industry, and many of us who play casually have a better time when we can get the people serving involved with us. I understand that it's not the same for everyone, and in the end, who cares? It's all good, we each live inside our own skin and have to satisfy ourselves.

Edited to add, I don't look around the table to see if other players are tipping or not. If another player feels tipping isn't right, and doesn't tip, as some here don't, that is perfectly fine with me, not that you asked.

You do what you do, I do what I do, the dealers do what they do, and the next day the casino is open and everyone came to work and came to play, so it must have found a balance somehow.
A falling knife has no handle.
1BB
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:42:53 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Please stop playing table games. Just stop. Try the internet gambling, or the blackjack on the game king machines. Those deal faster than any dealer can, they dont make mistakes, or hope to make money to live on.



Not gonna happen and your suggestion of $5 to $10 an hour for a $5 player or any player for that matter is a bit much. You do realize that some of us put in 500, 800 or even 1000 hours a year. Do you give $10,000 worth of help?

You brought up better comps for the good tipper. How far would you go? I hope you wouldn't pay pushes or deliberately flash but would you give better penetration? I mean a lot better not just a few cards. What about tipping only after winning? Do those players get a pass?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 7:51:15 AM permalink
I would never cheat, which is what flashing and paying pushes is. IF you play that much a year then you can afford to pay the 10k. It is really since a tiny percentage of your play. Assuming 70 hands an hour (very slow game) $5 per hour is just about 1.5% of your action. I was going to ask would you, but I know you would tip the server at the restaurant 1.5% since they do not cook the food, they just take the order and bring it to you. Losing is not an excuse to not pay for the service. If you don't like the taste of your food you should not stiff the server. As for the penetration, if it was my cut perhaps I would go a bit deeper, but most places have an etch in the shoe or discard rack where the cut point is set. Even in those situations if the card is slid at an angle it can go a little deeper. Some people are just too selfish, and I prefer to not deal to them.
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 8:01:28 AM permalink
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NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 8:35:18 AM permalink
I am glad I am not going to be dealing anymore because of people like many members of this forum who like to steal services.
taishan2112
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February 13th, 2013 at 8:45:25 AM permalink
If you don't want to tip then don't. Just be willing to accept the fact you are going to be made fun of behind closed doors and be known as a cheapskate. Agree or disagree its what will happen and go about your merry way.
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
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February 13th, 2013 at 8:48:40 AM permalink
The forum members do not care about being known as a cheapskate. Anyway this is my last post on this subject since I won't be in a tipped position anymore. I just wish people could think, if I had to live on this what would I like.
rxwine
rxwine
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:01:30 AM permalink
Who busts their ass more, pancake house waitress, or big casino dealer?

Or should I care?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
1BB
1BB
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:03:04 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

The forum members do not care about being known as a cheapskate. Anyway this is my last post on this subject since I won't be in a tipped position anymore. I just wish people could think, if I had to live on this what would I like.



Nobody twisted your arm to move to Vegas. The grass is always greener right? Be happy that you got out of dealing now because your take on it, especially rooting for players to lose, would have gotten old fast. Read Paigowdans posts on tipping. That's the attitude that will keep your blood pressure from rising.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Mosca
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:18:58 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I am glad I am not going to be dealing anymore because of people like many members of this forum who like to steal services.



I disagree with that sentiment. Not tipping is not stealing services. Tipping is optional. Tip, don't tip. No one should feel obligated to tip. Nor should they be made to feel obligated.
A falling knife has no handle.
Gabes22
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:26:33 AM permalink
I agree with Mosca. I generally tip, but a tip shouldn't be required in a casino, much like it is not required in a restaurant. Tips should be proportional to the service you receive. If I feel the dealer is helping with the entertainment value of the gambling experience then I will be more inclined to tip him or her, if they are some bitter old coot who hates his/her life and wants to complain about his job and the day he is having, I probably won't tip. Much like at a restaurant I have no problem skimping on the tip for poor service, I feel it customary to reward when good service has been provided. I also feel it depends on the game you are playing. If you are playing a $5 game of BJ, odds are the rules for those stakes are stacked against you with 6:5 BJs and other rules designed to take you away from your money quicker and thus I would be less inclined to tip if I was at one of those tables.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Mosca
Mosca
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:32:10 AM permalink
Just because I tip doesn't mean I think you should tip, is my point. They are independent realities. From the dealer's perspective, it is the average of all the independent realities that should matter, not what each individual reality is.
A falling knife has no handle.
PGBuster
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:55:57 AM permalink
I want you to tip me because I provide you with an enjoyable experience for the 30 minute you had with me. (I keep my own tips). If the cocktail waitress has been absent for the first 20 minutes and I make an effort to get the waitress to the table, I think something like that deserves a tip. I'm also very well versed in the basic strategy the Wizard makes and will defend you against other players if you do something that basic strategy dictates and they complain. I can't stand other players trying to control other players money. My favorite example is was a gentlemen who yelled at another player for hitting their soft 18 against my ten. They got another ten. I had a sixteen and pulled a 3. On the very next hand, they stayed on a hard 15 against a 9. I thought about saying something, but decided keeping my mouth shut was the best idea.

I'll also speak up if you accidentally give me the wrong hand signal for something blatant (such as you miscounting your hand as 14 when you have a hard 17). I think that deserves something too, as dealers have the option to simply follow your hand signal and not say anything. Even though I keep my own, I'm inclined to believe these dealers deserve a little more in the way of tips if they deserve it. If you know they're going to keep it all and the sourpuss that will be tapping in next gets nothing, I think its fair to adjusting your tipping appropriately. People like that usually return to pool joints anyhow. While I sympathize with dealers in those situations, I think they should speak up and demand more out of their co-workers.

On the other hand, if I ignore you the entire time, don't make an attempt to make conversation, or don't thank you for making a tip wager that loses, I don't want a tip. I don't deserve it. That's the standard(s) I use when I gamble myself. I can be having a terrible losing session, and I'll still tip. OTOH, last time I was in Vegas, I was up a good amount of money and barely tipped at all because the majority of dealers at the MGM Grand didn't give a damn.

In answering your other questions, I think there's some fair amounts to tip. If you're betting $25 and get a blackjack, I think tipping $2.50 is very fair. Some people tip $12.50. I think that's too much and negates any advantage you have for playing a 3:2 game in the first place. If you're playing a carnival game and have a hit between $500-$1000, I think $25 is a fair tip. If its between $1000-$4999, I think 2.5% is fair. If its something taxable, such as a progressive 3-Card jackpot, I think the Wizard's standards for a slot machine handpay (I believe 0.5-1%) is more than fair.

ETA: Unless the tip is substantial ($50 or more), I'd rather you just bet it. I feel there's a bond between the player and the dealer in that case. Something I dislike that players do is they feel "obligated" to stay in the hand (such as 3 Card) or ignore basic strategy when they have the dealer up for a bet. Do what you think is right! If you usually hit your 14 against a ten, hit it. Don't do it just to "keep me in the game". If you're going to make bad strategic decisions because you've made a dealer bet, I'd rather you just hand the tip in. Please don't bet another $10 on your 10-8-5 offsuit in 3 card just because you have me up for a couple bucks. I'd rather you save that $10 and use it for another wager on the next hand.

I'm just fine if you don't make any bets for me during the 30 minute session and then throw the tip in at the end of the session. It lets me know that you enjoyed my company and that my style was appropriate for you.

As far as giving losing players a "free pass", I don't necessarily buy into this theory. I'll understand it a little more, but I'm still a little annoyed because I have no control over the worthless automatic shufflers that are used. As far as the minimum wage argument goes, blame the government for creating the loophole. If a loophole existed in your personal income taxes that let you pay 50% of what you normally would, you'd take advantage of it. Casinos, bars, and restaurants do the same thing in this situation.
Gabes22
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February 13th, 2013 at 10:09:47 AM permalink
I think that is fair PGBuster. I tip for better service. There is a steakhouse in the Chicago area I frequent, and everytime I go there with my wife, we have dinner and then after dinner we go to the bar and watch the live jazz act for about an hour or two. We are typically given a free appetizer and a free round of drinks, sometimes more. Due to that, I typically tip there are 25% or greater because that appetizer and free round of drinks is taking perhaps $30-$40 off of the bill. When I gamble, if a dealer protects me against ill-adivised plays or is freindly or is very entertaining I think it is worth a tip.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
FinsRule
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February 13th, 2013 at 10:14:40 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You pay for the service in the house edge. Why pay more.



Couldn't have said it better. Give me less comps if you can't afford to pay your employees.
Ibeatyouraces
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February 13th, 2013 at 10:33:07 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Buzzard
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February 13th, 2013 at 10:59:57 AM permalink
This dealer actually told me to tip or else he would throw my arse out of the casino.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamingfloor/6764803679/
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Malaru
Malaru
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February 13th, 2013 at 11:34:25 AM permalink
Quote: MakingBook



But I NEVER, EVER tip a dealer. NEVER!




If the casino DID pay a fair wage - then this would be OK to me.. but since they do not, and you KNOW they do not. And YOU have the money to sit there and burn and gamble on while I am making what would be less then poverty level w/o your generosity...

Id say you were a less then acceptable man of character. All things considered.

BUT I would not expect to tip a dealer who was not friendly, or if you were loosing your shirt. But to not tip, ever, when you know without that tip the dealer is not making squat to help you have a good time? that is just wrong, and indecent. If I was making an acceptable wage- especially considering the investment a dealer gives into his occupation (learning, ect ect- stuff like dealer schools are not cheap)- Id not complain. But things are the way they are, and there is no way in hell your going to convince the casinos to suddenly pay some huge amount to the dealers.. especially with casinos closing down at a decent pace.


In short there are things that you do because it is customary, and part of your culture. Some countries don't tip certain jobs or people, and others that do. In America we do- waiters, barbers,bellhops, and dealers are some of the people you should be tipping. If you don't like it, please use the services in another country where your ideals more closely match up to the accepted customs.

Also- $2 per person per hour is a pretty small amount when you consider that your looking at a table with $15 minimums doing 50 hands per hour over 7 players = $5,250 in wagers- with on avg about an even payoff- so asking for $14 out of $5,250 - to me, don't give you much a leg to stand on to basically, be greedy, because you don't like how something is done.

But even after considering how your trying to count the cards, or keep your head low and see my hole card as I slide it across the table... or how I get hounded for a simple mistake (after all I am human .. last I checked)... with all the effort you put into keeping that extra $1 of your last 30 hands, just to give to the house when you loose anyways.. Id rather you keep it.. you need it more then me anyways, apparently.
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
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