Celebrity Deaths

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: billryan

Tommy John, former Yankee and Dodger ace. Perhaps the greatest pitcher not in the Hall of Fame. He was the subject of an experimental operation in 1975 that saved his career, and the career of hundreds of players since. Mr. John had class and was one of the nicest men in the game.Last Saturday was Old timers Day at Yankee Stadium. Mr John couldn't attend but sent a goodbye message to his Yankee family. In a fitting tribute, the starting pitchers that day are both Hall of
Fame bound pitchers who owe their careers to Tommy John surgery
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He never won a Cy Young either. Neither did Nolan Ryan, but I think Tommy John was a way better pitcher by any measure. Strange that in the balloting he never ever really came close to Hall of Fame acceptance either. There might be some bias there.

Not a fan of the underwear.
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When Tommy John tore a ligament in his elbow, apparently ending his career, he said to Dr Steve Jobe "Doctors can transplant a heart. Why can't we transplant a ligament?" Remarkably, Jobe thought about that and proposed doing an experimental version of such a procedure on Tommy John. And was wildly successful.

That's a very unusual story and its part of why it has always been called Tommy John Surgery.

ZZ Top drummer Frank Beard, 77.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

He never won a Cy Young either. Neither did Nolan Ryan, but I think Tommy John was a way better pitcher by any measure. Strange that in the balloting he never ever really came close to Hall of Fame acceptance either. There might be some bias there.

Not a fan of the underwear.

I disagree.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: billryan

Tommy John, former Yankee and Dodger ace. Perhaps the greatest pitcher not in the Hall of Fame. He was the subject of an experimental operation in 1975 that saved his career, and the career of hundreds of players since. Mr. John had class and was one of the nicest men in the game.Last Saturday was Old timers Day at Yankee Stadium. Mr John couldn't attend but sent a goodbye message to his Yankee family. In a fitting tribute, the starting pitchers that day are both Hall of
Fame bound pitchers who owe their careers to Tommy John surgery
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He never won a Cy Young either. Neither did Nolan Ryan, but I think Tommy John was a way better pitcher by any measure. Strange that in the balloting he never ever really came close to Hall of Fame acceptance either. There might be some bias there.

Not a fan of the underwear.
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Tommy John had 2-3 seasons where he certainly could've won the Cy Young. Nolan Ryan never had a year that made him a plausible candidate. As for HOF, Ryan had more SO, more no and 1 hitters, more wins, more playoff appearances and a WS ring. John has a better w/l percentage but no WS ring. Not that John doesn't belong in the hall, but Ryan does,

In 25 seasons in MLB, Tommy John was named to the All-Star team a total of three times.

TJ had better numbers than several HOF pitchers. I'd rank him well above Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat, and Don Sutton and in the same class as Mike Mussina. I think he gets in, but it's a shame they didn't honor him when he was around to appreciate it.
It was strange watching him pitch against the Yankees in the 1978 World Series, as it was an open secret he was signing with them as soon as it was over.

Quote: billryan

TJ had better numbers than several HOF pitchers. I'd rank him well above Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat, and Don Sutton and in the same class as Mike Mussina. I think he gets in, but it's a shame they didn't honor him when he was around to appreciate it.
It was strange watching him pitch against the Yankees in the 1978 World Series, as it was an open secret he was signing with them as soon as it was over.
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I think he should be in the HOF. 57 games over .500. 288 wins…. had he made it to the ‘Magic number’ of 300 he would have been a slam dunk. Only Verlander, Scherzer, and Cole (active) have more wins over .500 than John did.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: billryan

TJ had better numbers than several HOF pitchers. I'd rank him well above Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat, and Don Sutton and in the same class as Mike Mussina. I think he gets in, but it's a shame they didn't honor him when he was around to appreciate it.
It was strange watching him pitch against the Yankees in the 1978 World Series, as it was an open secret he was signing with them as soon as it was over.
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I think he should be in the HOF. 57 games over .500. 288 wins…. had he made it to the ‘Magic number’ of 300 he would have been a slam dunk. Only Verlander, Scherzer, and Cole (active) have more wins over .500 than John did.
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With his new ligament he had three or four very good years immediately after returning and then was a pedestrian pitcher but was able to play until he was 46 years old.

In his best season, 1977, (his second year after his surgery) he went 21-7. That year he is considered by baseball reference to be the 3rd best pitcher on the Dodgers, with lower WAR then Burt Hooton and Don Sutton. In fact he was playing for those fabulous Dodger teams that had Garvey, Lopes, Cey, Russell, R.Smith, etc., and was ranked as only the 5th best player on the team that year. In his two other 20 win seasons (both with the Dodgers) he was not even ranked by baseball-reference as being among the top 12 players on his team. In fact, in his 26 year long career Tommy John was never the ace of the pitching rotation, was never ranked as being one of the two best pitchers on his team and other than 1977 was never considered to be one of the top 8 players on his team.

So why is anyone arguing for him to be in the HOF?. Well, he pitched for great Yankee teams and great Dodgers teams and stumbled into winning records. And so he got to 200 wins after 17 seasons. Then for the last nine years of his career he was 9-8, 14-12, 11-13, 7-13, 4-10, 5-3, 13-6, 9-8 and 2-7 which got him up to 288 wins. He was a medical marvel, and hung on until he was almost 47 years old but he firmly established himself in the minds of his contemporaries as a mediocre pitcher.

In his best years (with the Dodgers) he was most similar to Burt Hooton. Let me repeat myself. At his absolute best he was Burt Hooton.

In all the myriad realities of the multiverse there is no world in which Tommy John has ever been elected to the baseball Hall of Fame. Never. Ever. ever.

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: billryan

TJ had better numbers than several HOF pitchers. I'd rank him well above Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat, and Don Sutton and in the same class as Mike Mussina. I think he gets in, but it's a shame they didn't honor him when he was around to appreciate it.
It was strange watching him pitch against the Yankees in the 1978 World Series, as it was an open secret he was signing with them as soon as it was over.
link to original post

I think he should be in the HOF. 57 games over .500. 288 wins…. had he made it to the ‘Magic number’ of 300 he would have been a slam dunk. Only Verlander, Scherzer, and Cole (active) have more wins over .500 than John did.
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With his new ligament he had three or four very good years immediately after returning and then was a pedestrian pitcher but was able to play until he was 46 years old.

In his best season, 1977, (his second year after his surgery) he went 21-7. That year he is considered by baseball reference to be the 3rd best pitcher on the Dodgers, with lower WAR then Burt Hooton and Don Sutton. In fact he was playing for those fabulous Dodger teams that had Garvey, Lopes, Cey, Russell, R.Smith, etc., and was ranked as only the 5th best player on the team that year. In his two other 20 win seasons (both with the Dodgers) he was not even ranked by baseball-reference as being among the top 12 players on his team. In fact, in his 26 year long career Tommy John was never the ace of the pitching rotation, was never ranked as being one of the two best pitchers on his team and other than 1977 was never considered to be one of the top 8 players on his team.

So why is anyone arguing for him to be in the HOF?. Well, he pitched for great Yankee teams and great Dodgers teams and stumbled into winning records. And so he got to 200 wins after 17 seasons. Then for the last nine years of his career he was 9-8, 14-12, 11-13, 7-13, 4-10, 5-3, 13-6, 9-8 and 2-7 which got him up to 288 wins. He was a medical marvel, and hung on until he was almost 47 years old but he firmly established himself in the minds of his contemporaries as a mediocre pitcher.

In his best years (with the Dodgers) he was most similar to Burt Hooton. Let me repeat myself. At his absolute best he was Burt Hooton.

In all the myriad realities of the multiverse there is no world in which Tommy John has ever been elected to the baseball Hall of Fame. Never. Ever. ever.
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In his first stint with the Yankees he was certainly at the top of the rotation, and you could argue whether he or Guidry were the ace. Catfish Hunter and Kaat were also on that team and they are HoF but also of age by that point.

Being HoF is determined mostly by the sportswriters I try to see "fame" through their lens, and being a part of their careers for a long time is going to have a lot of weight. So longevity, and being nobody is as good at 40 as they are at 30 playing into your 40s has a good correlation to having had an excellent career.

TJ was obviously a very mediocre pitcher who only managed to pitch 26 seasons because his teammates liked his underwear brand. Pay no attention to his career WAR, everyone knows that's a made-up stat that is meaningless. His stats were inflated by the years he spent with the White Sox, Indians, Halos, and Angels.
A WAR of 4.0 is considered above-average/all-star quality. Mr John had seven such seasons. He was also traded one-for-one for future HOF slugger Richie Allen.

Mr. John was the Opening Day pitcher for the White Sox in 1966, and for the Yankees in 1989. He was the oldest Opening Day pitcher at the time, and starting on Opening Days twenty-three years apart is unprecedented. He was the starter on six Opening Days, and started the first game of the World Series twice.

I was always happy to unseal the wax and find a Tommy John card!

Quote: smoothgrh

I was always happy to unseal the wax and find a Tommy John card!
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His 1968 Topps card, which showed him on the White Sox, is the card that pops into my mind's eye.

"Longevity isn't greatness; Peak is greatness" - Dennis Rodman

Sandy Koufax is in the Hall of Fame. Tommy John was a good pitcher (good control, didn't give up many home runs) whose hallmark achievements were recovery from an injury and longevity. He never came close to being elected to the Hall but he made a lot of money in his career and played well. RIP Tommy John.

He was one of the greatest feel drummers of all time.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Not a fan of the underwear.
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If you wear nice shirts especially designer then wearing a Tommy John deep v neck undershirt either of the cool cotton or second skin variety is de rigueur because it protects your fine haberdashery from sweat stains. Due to the deep v these are invisible under your shirts including when unbuttoned at the top one or two.

My dry cleaners tell me I’m “very clean” but nonetheless one of them recommended these undershirts for me because of all the designer clothing I bring in.

Shelley Fabares has died she was the oldest daughter on the Donna Reed Show in the 1960s. We all had a crush on her. She had this hit song that was on the radio all the time.

Quote: EvenBob

Shelley Fabares has died she was the oldest daughter on the Donna Reed Show in the 1960s. We all had a crush on her. She had this hit song that was on the radio all the time.

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Donna Reed and "Johnny Angel" before my time, I remember her as Coach's main squeze on "Coach". She was married to Mike Farrell of MASH, who is still alive and kicking at 87.

Dolly Parton died 15 minutes ago. R.I.P.

Quote: gordonm888

Dolly Parton died 15 minutes ago. R.I.P.
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Dolly leaving us is a big loss. I love classic country music and Dolly was about as good as that got. In 1993 or so I saw her perform at a country music festival in Cumberland MD. She was the final act and did a great job. As big as a star as she was, she was still somehow rather humble and was generous at giving credit to others. I recall she had someone else sing I Will Always Love You, who did it in Whitney's Houston's style, evidently because she liked that woman's arrangement of it better.

A friend of mine gave birth as a single mom in the mid 2000's and was struggling financially. I don't recall the details, but Dolly sent her children's books on a regular basis. For that, my friend was very thankful of Dolly.

I personally cannot think of one single negative thing to say about her. As close to perfection as one can get. RIP Dolly.



I'd like to close with this song, one of my favorites of Dolly's and on the topic of death.

Dolly Parton was a lifelong philanthropist who gave millions and millions of her own money to charities that she supported. So much so that Jeff Bezos gave her $100 million for her to invest in her charities. She was especially interested in child literacy and gave a ton of her time and money to that. Plus back in the day she was super hot

Quote: Wizard

A friend of mine gave birth as a single mom in the mid 2000's and was struggling financially. I don't recall the details, but Dolly sent her children's books on a regular basis. For that, my friend was very thankful of Dolly.
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https://imaginationlibrary.com/

I don't think anyone is going to complain if I plug that program. As I understand, it really is as simple as "Do you know a child? Do you want free books for them? Sign up." There are billboards all over the south promoting the Imagination Library.

There are many, many school music programs that have gotten substantial grants from Dolly Parton one way or another.

As I recall, even her theme park started off as her trying to bring good jobs to the area she grew up in.

Damn, death really does come in threes. Dolly's husband died about a year or so ago, Dolly's brother died earlier this year, and Dolly died today! 😭 What a triple whammy! 😭 RIP to all three of them! 😭