AN AP NIGHTMARE

Next installment please!

Quote: SOOPOO

DarkOz has made it clear he uses other people's players cards with their permission to harvest free play and turn it into cash, presumably, either paying the people a defined sum or some percentage. Zcore, EB, maybe others keep calling this shady and imply illegality. IANAL, but DO is sure it's legal. So let's all agree on shady, unless someone can give an example of a single person being prosecuted for using another's players card.
My fear is that I will bet that a each of these people who received money from DO for using their cards 'might' have forgotten to declare that income. And it is also possible that DO himself 'might' have forgotten to declare this income of his as well.

My fear is that people who should know better throw around baseless accusations of felonies and tax evasion without the slightest of evidence.

Quote: Mission146

Using cash out machines? Okay, assuming this is true, how is the casino not aiding and abetting in this Title 31 whatever by providing the means to avoid whatever it is you're talking about?



Are you the arbiter of whether or not they do?



Can you point to something specific in Title 31 that you think this applies to? I honestly don't think the other cards are being used for what you seem(?) to think they are being used for.



What probably violates the regulations? Can you point to something concrete? It's really tough to discuss, "Title 31," as some all-encompassing concept without specifics.

Could a person who uses a cashout machine several times a day be violating Title 31 even if he plays on his own card?

Also, if the cashout machines are the big issue here, I fail to see how the casino is not helping the perpetrator commit the alleged crime. The casino is freely providing the tools to do so.

I dont have all the answers, I'm just telling you there are definate issues with what he is doing. And if anything he does becomes suspicious to just one casino employee, a suspicious activity report to the IRS could be made. It could be an attendant noticing two hand pays to the same person with different cards. It could be a host tracking play and then walking out to the floor to see the same person playing under different cards.

99.9% of cash out machines are normal transactions. That's why they keep them. Casinos are tasked, and even more recently) of finding ways to track the very small percent of not normal activity that happens in a casino. There have been HUGE fines recently to casinos for slacking off on Title 31 tracking. $75 million, $12 million, $8 million are recent fines. They are not messing around anymore. Loose Title 31 tracking is being cracked down on. Every gaming employee that's thousands) at my casino has to go to a Title 31 class twice a year.


ZCore13

We have arrived at the final post for this sad tale

Please do not suggest I create a different ending. It ends only one way -- the way it actually happened.

If you demand endings that didnt actually happen to true stories then please write your screenplay for The Titanic and have all the passengers rescued at the end.

Now onto the conclusion:

The rescue operation was all set for the next morning but it never happened.

Approximately three hours after arranging all the details with everyone I got a single word text from my daughter.

The text read: 'Dad.'

That was her unofficial codeword for when she was either in danger or knew she had done something wrong. It was my warning from her something I probably didnt want to hear was about to be said.

'Where are you? AC?' I texted in reply.

'No. NY. I'm scared.'

She explained my former son-in-law had called her and said everything was going to work out for the best.

Damn. My former son-in-law couldn't resist contacting her and tipping her off.

'So why are you scared' I asked.

'We were together 13 years. I know him. I can tell something is about to happen. Something bad.'

I hesitated to say anything myself now. After so long people can detect your tells.

'I dropped kids off at moms. Dont want them around if something goes down.'

I breathed a sigh of relief. At least they were safe (I couldn't mention about the phone left behind but I would later learn my daughter had grabbed it when dropping off the kids. They knew it was left behind naturally)

'We are checking into hotel in city. Ttyl'

Great. I still didnt know where they were now. I had to get her away from him and they always were together. Where she went he went.

The only time they were apart from what she told me is when he went to see his parole officer. And I knew that was a sham since he was on the run. Once she saw that in his own words I knew she would come to her senses.

I came up with plan B

I phoned my ex-girlfriend and updated her.

"My daughter wants desperately to believe my girlfriend is the thief and her fiance is innocent. Lets play upon that. You call her and say you have very personal information that proves my girlfriend is the thief. Say its so personal you want her to come alone to your house. Not to bring even her fiance. I am wagering she will be by herself in an Uber within ten minutes.

"Now," I continued, "when she arrives, you sit her down and tell her how much we all love her. Tell her you're sorry for the deception and..."

"Listen, dumbass," my ex-girlfriend interrupted. "I know what to say. I get the plan. Get off the phone so I can call her."

While waiting for word I called everyone else who was scheduled to meet in the morning to cancel those plans.

I updated my former son-in-law on the new plan.

"So its happening tonight? Perfect."

Five minutes later my ex-girlfriend called me back. "She said she will be at my house within two hours."

"Damn. Why so long? It doesn't take two hours from the city to your house."

I was worried she felt she was being held hostage and needed to figure out how to slip away.

However my former son-in-law called about 30 minutes later. "Your daughter is in my car. She wants to talk to you."

It felt good to know she was turning to her ex for help. Or maybe she was just too cheap to splurge on an Uber.

"Dad, I know my fiance is not guilty of robbing you. I have the proof. I am going to show it to you soon as I pick it up. I am on my way to meet someone."

I felt bad deceiving her but the plan was working perfectly.

When my former son-in-law dropped her off at my ex-girlfriend house he notified me and I waited anxiously for the fruit of my connivance to pay off.

I wasn't there to report what happened. Later my ex-girlfriend said she held in her tears. "But you should have seen her face. She wanted to see the messages with the parole and him being on the run a second time. She knew then. I could tell."

But all I knew was silence from my phone until three texts back to back came in all from my daughter.

'Wow'

'I will pay you back'

'I feel so stupid'

And I knew except for some odds and ends my AP nightmare was coming to an end

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its now a week since these events took place. The players cards are being slowly replaced. The team continues on its course. Operationally very little was affected the whole time as most of the team simply kept doing their thing. The irony of course being that the cards stolen were not the ones being used by my team members. Those were in their hands out in the field. All the thief got were backup cards and future cards and well...account numbers and corresponding names. This was for lack of a better term an 'internal upper management problem'

After days of heartache my daughter has come to grips with the whole situation. It is easier to overcome a love if they have hurt your family so much I suppose.

Her fiance (now ex-fiance) tried calling her but she refuses to take his calls. He is still on the run. By now with a little detective work (my daughter still has his phone and is plugged into his social media accounts) we now know exactly who the accomplice was. I have his full name. I even have a copy of his mug shot. He too is on the run having skipped his probation.

We are working on making their life on the run from parole a little difficult for them and easier for the authorities to apprehend them. But they arent caught yet so cant explain the details.

I am left picking up the pieces. As my son pointed out, "Dad, you have a knack for getting into even stronger positions after something pulls you down. No one is really worried about you rising up again."

My daughter is out from the team. The mistakes she made were too egregious. We all make mistakes and I hold no animosity. But for team morale and due to the events that occurred she is on her own now.

She has the knowledge and bankroll to begin her own AP team and that is her intention. I will be there with advice and such but she sinks or swims on her own now for the most part. She even told me she sees this as the silver lining to the whole incident.

Of course, I never got the money or cards back. The cards are probably in a dumpster somewhere once they realized they were no good.

The cut of the profits my daughter would have received in the future will go to me. That will make me whole in the long run.

When I first started recounting these events I still felt awful. But thanks to your support I do feel better. So I suppose sharing tragedy sometimes is a means to healing

For the naysayers:

It probably is too unbelievable that:
AP's get robbed
Women fall in love with the wrong men
Police arent called into every single crime
And of course no one ever leaves their cell phone in the charger

But there is one thing I know for a fact. These things did happen

To the future guys. Thx

Quote: billryan

My fear is that people who should know better throw around baseless accusations of felonies and tax evasion without the slightest of evidence.

LOL! THIS ENTIRE THREAD doesn't have "the slightest of evidence"!

It certainly is possible that DO and all of the people whose cards he use keep records of their winnings for the IRS. It is also possible the pain in my left shoulder is from bumping into that pesky unicorn.

I enjoyed it. Thanks Darkoz.

The cellphone part is probably the craziest. Who doesn’t have a password and leaves it while not going out?

I’m glad the story had a happy ending. That might be the biggest twist of all.

Quote: Zcore13

I dont have all the answers, I'm just telling you there are definate issues with what he is doing. And if anything he does becomes suspicious to just one casino employee, a suspicious activity report to the IRS could be made. It could be an attendant noticing two hand pays to the same person with different cards. It could be a host tracking play and then walking out to the floor to see the same person playing under different cards.

99.9% of cash out machines are normal transactions. That's why they keep them. Casinos are tasked, and even more recently) of finding ways to track the very small percent of not normal activity that happens in a casino. There have been HUGE fines recently to casinos for slacking off on Title 31 tracking. $75 million, $12 million, $8 million are recent fines. They are not messing around anymore. Loose Title 31 tracking is being cracked down on. Every gaming employee that's thousands) at my casino has to go to a Title 31 class twice a year.


ZCore13

Zcore

Let me say I appreciate your concern

I am in different court situations that involve multiple card use (but none are charges for such use) there is ongoing litigation

These casino employees who might alert the IRS if they knew what I do ALREADY KNOW WHAT I DO.

Its in multiple discovery documents.

Bio-metrica knows what I do and has for over 2 years.

The Pennsylvania state police know what I do (fhe casino explained it to then when I was caught with 28 playerd cards) .

No charges ever. And yet all these people know?

Wait for the sequel. Where Ozs "girlfriend" is reveled to have been the daughters boyfriends bunkmate/ maytag for five of those six years.

If you team was a democracy, I'd be calling for an election. The team got robbed and raped by someone its leader let into his inner circle, and he thinks tossing out his daughter resolves the crisis.

Assuming it's all true, I am very happy it seems everything basically worked out for the best. Getting your daughter away from the loser is worth whatever money you may have lost. Hopefully your grandkids were shielded somewhat from the events. AP is not a lifestyle I would want, but it seems a great fit for you. Continued good luck to you....

How about some photos. Perhaps they are headed to Vegas. Posting a photo of him will alert all the casinos reading this.

Quote: Zcore13

The problem in his situation is he's using other peoples names to play and cash out, which may be avoiding Title 31 reporting. It doesn't look good at all. It's just a matter of time before he gets caught and reported.


ZCore13

No, sorry, that's nonsense. Also, by the way, Zcore13 is hijacking this thread - the most fascinating and entertaining WOV thread in a long time.

Clearly Zcore13 objects to what DarkOz does based on his own personal ideology and values, but this claim that DarkOz's activity is illegal based on Title 31 reporting violations is just not rational; its a fantastic overreach, IMO. In any case, Zcore13 has now fairly stated his point and everyone can now fairly judge it for what it is. Let's stop debating this and move on!*

*or at least split this pointless debate (about the legality of AP moves involving player cards) off into a separate thread and get back to what was the most fascinating WOV thread in a long time and discuss the theft from DarkOz and the discovery of the guilty parties.

** Perhaps the moderators can create a thread called The Z Corner for ZenKing and Zcore13 to post all their comments objecting to casinos and to APs - because these two members appear to represent the extreme opposite poles of a philosophical (and legal) debate and they seem to argue from the same level of animus.

Quote: darkoz

Zcore

Let me say I appreciate your concern

I am in different court situations that involve multiple card use (but none are charges for such use) there is ongoing litigation

These casino employees who might alert the IRS if they knew what I do ALREADY KNOW WHAT I DO.

Its in multiple discovery documents.

Bio-metrica knows what I do and has for over 2 years.

The Pennsylvania state police know what I do (fhe casino explained it to then when I was caught with 28 playerd cards) .

No charges ever. And yet all these people know?

Do you ever stop and ask yourself why you have so many problems? Your main problem is letting everyone know what you do. Add in wearing Halloween costumes to the casino and you have a recipe for more future disaster.

Wow. I feel SO stupid. I even stood up for the scummy Ex fiance who was the thief who robbed you and said he wasn't the robber. I should have seen huge warning signs when he said he was going to break in and enter your current girlfriend's house to see if she was the thief and rob her right back if she was the thief in order to get your stuff back(After he had already been convicted Robbery and was incarcerated for six years because of it) I even said that he wouldn't risk hurting his Fiance by robbing her Father and was to rob the girlfriend back to HELP you. (In hindsight, he would have just felt pangs of guilt and "Returned"the cards and money and claimed that he "Found" the stash in the current girlfriend's house and "Robbed," her for you and get you to possibly break up with your innocent current girlfriend.)I pointed my suspicions to her ex boyfriend, who ended up helping her get away from her Robber current ex Fiance. I am so naive. :/

Quote: Nathan

Wow. I feel SO stupid. I even stood up for the scummy Ex fiance who was the thief who robbed you and said he wasn't the robber. I should have seen huge warning signs when he said he was going to break in and enter your current girlfriend's house to see if she was the thief and rob her right back if she was the thief in order to get your stuff back(After he had already been convicted Robbery and was incarcerated for six years because of it) I even said that he wouldn't risk hurting his Fiance by robbing her Father and was to rob the girlfriend back to HELP you. (In hindsight, he would have just felt pangs of guilt and "Returned"the cards and money and claimed that he "Found" the stash in the current girlfriend's house and "Robbed," her for you and get you to possibly break up with your innocent current girlfriend.)I pointed my suspicions to her ex boyfriend, who ended up helping her get away from her Robber current ex Fiance. I am so naive. :/

Nathan:
My daughter is aware of this thread and has read it.

She has laughed at all the naysayers ("Dad, they dont believe this actually happened but cant turn away. Never seen so many people not believe in something who are glued to every word") yes she made me feel better

She has done some crying and admitted she knows she messed up royally.

But when she came to your comments you made her feel better. She felt like someone understood what had truly happened to her.

She isnt a WOV member so I had to tell her Nathan was a woman. That made her feel even better. She suddenly understood.

Thanks

Quote: gordonm888

No, sorry, that's nonsense. Also, by the way, Zcore13 is hijacking this thread - the most fascinating and entertaining WOV thread in a long time.

Clearly Zcore13 objects to what DarkOz does based on his own personal ideology and values, but this claim that DarkOz's activity is illegal based on Title 31 reporting violations is just not rational; its a fantastic overreach, IMO. In any case, Zcore13 has now fairly stated his point and everyone can now fairly judge it for what it is. Let's stop debating this and move on!*

*or at least split this pointless debate (about the legality of AP moves involving player cards) off into a separate thread and get back to what was the most fascinating WOV thread in a long time and discuss the theft from DarkOz and the discovery of the guilty parties.

** Perhaps the moderators can create a thread called The Z Corner for ZenKing and Zcore13 to post all their comments objecting to casinos and to APs - because these two members appear to represent the extreme opposite poles of a philosophical (and legal) debate and they seem to argue from the same level of animus.

I don't object to what he does, so your "clearly" statement is not clear at all. I've been an advocate for AP play in the past, saying it's the casinos job to protect games/promotions.

And your opinion on my Title 31 knowledge being irrational is just that, your opinion. Since I've been trained on it, for 13 years, I'm pretty confident what is happening could be considered suspicious activity by someone in a casino.

This thread is about his experience which includes the theft of (and use of by him and his team) done so and dozens of cards that are not in his name. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by focusing on that part of the story. Maybe a Gordon's Corner would help you feel safe from my thoughts.



ZCore13

Quote: darkoz

Nathan:

But when she came to your comments you made her feel better. She felt like someone understood what had truly happened to her.

She isnt a WOV member so I had to tell her Nathan was a woman. That made her feel even better. She suddenly understood.

Thanks

#TeamNathan

I'm waiting on the boyfriend to reply. I'm sure he is aware of this thread, as well.

Quote: Zcore13

I dont have all the answers, I'm just telling you there are definate issues with what he is doing. And if anything he does becomes suspicious to just one casino employee, a suspicious activity report to the IRS could be made. It could be an attendant noticing two hand pays to the same person with different cards. It could be a host tracking play and then walking out to the floor to see the same person playing under different cards.

I mean, yeah, they can fill out an SAR for any reason that they want to. That doesn't have anything to do with the actual act of laundering or structuring actually taking place.

As far as the handpay/host issues you're talking about, APs would generally try to avoid those things, but it has nothing to do with laundering or structuring reasons. You just don't want the casino to know you have multiple cards.

Quote:

99.9% of cash out machines are normal transactions. That's why they keep them. Casinos are tasked, and even more recently) of finding ways to track the very small percent of not normal activity that happens in a casino. There have been HUGE fines recently to casinos for slacking off on Title 31 tracking. $75 million, $12 million, $8 million are recent fines. They are not messing around anymore. Loose Title 31 tracking is being cracked down on. Every gaming employee that's thousands) at my casino has to go to a Title 31 class twice a year.

They keep them because they don't want to pay more employees. They keep them because they are both cost and time effective. If the casinos were as concerned with everything being on the up-and-up rather than costs, then they wouldn't have them.

It also must occur to you that the existence of such machines can also facilitate underage gambling, otherwise the cage would be a second potential point of contact for ID purposes. All the underage gambler need do is make sure to play in such a fashion that makes a handpay impossible, which is easy enough to do.

Anyway, what sorts of suspicious activity is discussed at this Title 31 class?

Also, do you suspect that the crackdowns have been due to the fact that the casinos themselves have facilitated these violations taking place?

Quote: Mission146

Anyway, what sorts of suspicious activity is discussed at this Title 31 class?

Structuring, smurfing, using agents to hide transactions (we just had one of these a few weeks ago) and other ways of hiding large transactions.

Quote: Mission146

Also, do you suspect that the crackdowns have been due to the fact that the casinos themselves have facilitated these violations taking place?

The crackdowns are on lax training, methods and reporting of Title 31 situations. In the past, casinos could get away with a warning or small fine by saying "we didn't know" or "It's hard for us to track with so many transactions and/or so many places for people to cash out". That doesn't fly anymore.

These recent huge fines have got the attention of casinos. Many have upgraded their Title 31 procedures and software. Lots of training and revamped training going on. It's just a matter of time until even better systems are developed and put in place that will track even more methods and variables. Heck, I wouldnt be susprises if someday a player is required to use a players card to be able to gamble.


ZCore13

Quote: darkoz

Nathan:
My daughter is aware of this thread and has read it.

She has laughed at all the naysayers ("Dad, they dont believe this actually happened but cant turn away. Never seen so many people not believe in something who are glued to every word") yes she made me feel better

She has done some crying and admitted she knows she messed up royally.

But when she came to your comments you made her feel better. She felt like someone understood what had truly happened to her.

She isnt a WOV member so I had to tell her Nathan was a woman. That made her feel even better. She suddenly understood.

Thanks

You're welcome. I can't believe he robbed his Fiance's FATHER! I feel so sorry for her. I can't imagine how horrible she feels right now that the man she was going to marry stole from her father. Poor girl and he's an idiot for ruining a to be future marriage and stepparent hood for MONEY! Stupid, selfish man! On a light-hearted thing, did she laugh at what appeared to be gibberish from me? That "gibberish"(Which really wasn't gibberish at all) was meant to be comic relief in this very sad thread.

Quote: Zcore13

You've stupidly posted your information on a public forum where for sure casino executives visit and I'm sure there's a chance law enforcement visits. You've admitted to things that probably violate Title 31 regulations. You are obviously not as smart as you think you are. ZCore13

And that is the most entertaining aspect of
this thread. The hubris of people skating
just a little above the law, their reasoning
and how they're totally in denial. Reminds
me of when I lived in Calif and caught
somebody redhanded stealing from me.

HE got mad at ME, screaming that I had
everything and he had nothing, I deserved
to be stolen from. This is a the prison
mentality, caught criminals will bore you
every day with how what they did was NOT
a crime.

Quote: EvenBob

And that is the most entertaining aspect of
this thread. The hubris of people skating
just a little above the law, their reasoning
and how they're totally in denial. Reminds
me of when I lived in Calif and caught
somebody redhanded stealing from me.

HE got mad at ME, screaming that I had
everything and he had nothing, I deserved
to be stolen from. This is a the prison
mentality, caught criminals will bore you
every day with how what they did was NOT
a crime.

The most important part of your quote:

"Skating just a little ABOVE the law"

Definition: doing stuff legally

For what it's worth I don't see darkoz doing anything illegal. He certainly are doing things that violates the will of the casino but I don't think there is state or federal law that can charge him with a crime. As for SAR, yeah, the casinos may fill these out and the feds may take notice but the people collecting the money are just using players cards that are not theirs. As for IRS reporting I would hope that darkoz has some SOP around reporting and that his team reports income both from the machines and via whatever payoffs darkoz arranges.

Of course there is plenty of ways this venture could go sideways. One is robbery, vulnerable to happen in any cash business. When you go several years without incident, one tends to make mistakes.

As for the daughter, she fell in love and made a bad mistake. I know many think the cell phone pix are fiction, but people who are released from prison are not exactly the smartest people in the book and may have not been using the latest phone with the latest software. Android OS do not require passcodes and you can set security to none.

The good news is that it was not a direct family member and that it was easy to divest these people from darkoz' life. It would have been far worse if it was the son-in-law with children. lkkely it is only a matter of time before the robber and his accomplice are caught, but I would be very cautious going forward.

Quote: EvenBob

And that is the most entertaining aspect of
this thread. The hubris of people skating
just a little above the law, their reasoning
and how they're totally in denial. Reminds
me of when I lived in Calif and caught
somebody redhanded stealing from me.

HE got mad at ME, screaming that I had
everything and he had nothing, I deserved
to be stolen from. This is a the prison
mentality, caught criminals will bore you
every day with how what they did was NOT
a crime.

That's halfway hilarious and halfway sad. I laughed in disbelief when I read that. LMAO! :D :O

Quote: Nathan

That's halfway hilarious and halfway sad. I laughed in disbelief when I read that. LMAO! :D :O

When Evenbob is even a laughingstock for Nathan you know he cant be taken seriously

Quote: EvenBob

And that is the most entertaining aspect of
this thread. The hubris of people skating
just a little above the law, their reasoning
and how they're totally in denial. Reminds
me of when I lived in Calif and caught
somebody redhanded stealing from me.

HE got mad at ME, screaming that I had
everything and he had nothing, I deserved
to be stolen from. This is a the prison
mentality, caught criminals will bore you
every day with how what they did was NOT
a crime.

Seems like a lot of that going around these days.

Quote: darkoz

She has laughed at all the naysayers ("Dad, they dont believe this actually happened but cant turn away. Never seen so many people not believe in something who are glued to every word") yes she made me feel better

I read Candide a month or so back. I didn't believe a word of it, because it is a fiction written by Voltaire, but I couldn't put it down.

I am not stating an opinion as to the veracity of your story as I have no evidence or experience with your story either way. But, it is pretty simple to know that one doesn't have to believe something to find it entertaining.

Quote:

She has done some crying and admitted she knows she messed up royally.

Just to be clear, at what point is she admitting that she had knowledge of the robbery? From the beginning? Sometime before they took off? After? Not until she left the boyfriend? It didn't seem very clear in your story.

I'm just confused because she said, "I will pay you back." You also said she is off the team. For what? Leaving her Mom's house with the boyfriend? Why would she pay you back if she didn't personally have anything to do with the robbery? If her former fiance took an action without her knowledge, how would she be in any way on the hook for that?

Quote: darkoz

My daughter is out from the team. The mistakes she made were too egregious. We all make mistakes and I hold no animosity. But for team morale and due to the events that occurred she is on her own now.

She has the knowledge and bankroll to begin her own AP team and that is her intention. I will be there with advice and such but she sinks or swims on her own now for the most part.

This is the saddest part of the whole story: your aiding and abetting your daughter to continue to be an AP.

She should have a real job, and / or marry someone who has one also: AP is too sketchy for someone with dependent kids to rely on, and as the tale shows fraught with potential peril, misjudgment, and loss.

Casino advantage play is no way for the mother of your grand children to live her life, it will suck the spark from her soul.

Better she become a school teacher or pursue some other career with retirement benefits and health insurance.

I would just like to say, anyone talking about multiple carding is an idiot, and a cappy AP.

I'll take one for "the team"

Quote: darkoz

When Evenbob is even a laughingstock for Nathan you know he cant be taken seriously

Not really laughing at EvenBob but at the dude who stole from him and said he deserved to be stolen from because EB had everything and he had nothing. And blamed EB for his stealing from EB! That's some incredulous stuff.

I like casinos...and am on parole.



Can I get your daughter's digits?

The daughter is out do to what exactly? Was she an accomplice?
Was it for being an idiot?... guilt by association?

Quote: Mission146

I read Candide a month or so back. I didn't believe a word of it, because it is a fiction written by Voltaire, but I couldn't put it down.

I am not stating an opinion as to the veracity of your story as I have no evidence or experience with your story either way. But, it is pretty simple to know that one doesn't have to believe something to find it entertaining.



Just to be clear, at what point is she admitting that she had knowledge of the robbery? From the beginning? Sometime before they took off? After? Not until she left the boyfriend? It didn't seem very clear in your story.

I'm just confused because she said, "I will pay you back." You also said she is off the team. For what? Leaving her Mom's house with the boyfriend? Why would she pay you back if she didn't personally have anything to do with the robbery? If her former fiance took an action without her knowledge, how would she be in any way on the hook for that?

I'm assuming she feels guilty that her Fiance robbed her father, like,"How could I not see that my Fiance ripped my father off?

i stopped reading 30+pages ago. will just wait for the movie.

Quote: jackmagic777

i stopped reading 30+pages ago. will just wait for the movie.

Never made it to theaters, Blockbuster may have it on DVD.

Quote: Nathan

I'm assuming she feels guilty that her Fiance robbed her father, like,"How could I not see that my Fiance ripped my father off?

If the guy robbed a bank while she was engaged to him, and the money was not recovered, would she offer to pay the bank the money back?

Also, would she go to prison for the robbery if she wasn't there and knew nothing about it ahead of time or anytime that she was with the perpetrator thereafter?

DarkOz can do as he likes, but if it were me, here are the two possibilities:

A.) She knew something about it BEFORE getting away from the boyfriend.

OR:

B.) She didn't.

If B., then I can't figure out how she would be in any way responsible or why she should face any repercussions.

I'm still convinced that the idea was to plant the cards at DarkOz' girlfriend's and keep the cash. They could say the girlfriend was hiding the cash somewhere else. I also find it hard to believe the daughter was not aware of it at some point, maybe not beforehand, prior to her ex-husband picking her up and getting her away from the fiance. I could be wrong, though.

Quote: darkoz

The most important part of your quote:

"Skating just a little ABOVE the law"

In the 90's in MI they put in machines
that took used aluminum cans and
gave you back the 10 cent deposit
on them. But the machines couldn't
tell if the can was from a deposit
state or not.

So a cottage industry was born. Teams
would gather cans in Indiana, a non
deposit state, and return them in MI.
This was not illegal, all a store could do
was ban and trespass you. Some of the
more ambitious teams made thousands
a week.

Till 1998 when MI passed a law that made
it a crime. But they still kept it up for awhile,
until they started to go to prison for it.

Also, as a general rule, working with family is best avoided.

Quote: Mission146

If the guy robbed a bank while she was engaged to him, and the money was not recovered, would she offer to pay the bank the money back?

Also, would she go to prison for the robbery if she wasn't there and knew nothing about it ahead of time or anytime that she was with the perpetrator thereafter?

DarkOz can do as he likes, but if it were me, here are the two possibilities:

A.) She knew something about it BEFORE getting away from the boyfriend.

OR:

B.) She didn't.

If B., then I can't figure out how she would be in any way responsible or why she should face any repercussions.

I'm still convinced that the idea was to plant the cards at DarkOz' girlfriend's and keep the cash. They could say the girlfriend was hiding the cash somewhere else. I also find it hard to believe the daughter was not aware of it at some point, maybe not beforehand, prior to her ex-husband picking her up and getting her away from the fiance. I could be wrong, though.

It's possible that he had pangs of guilt and confessed to her that he robbed her Father and she was like,"Dad, I'm scared." Dark admitted she texted him that she was scared and couldn't believe she'd been so naive.

Quote: EvenBob

Till 1998 when MI passed a law that made
it a crime. But they still kept it up for awhile,
until they started to go to prison for it.

Okay, so it was above the law when that wasn't a crime, yes? After they made it a crime, it was no longer above the law, correct?

I also disagree with the verbiage, "A little above the law." There is no, 'a little.' Something is either legal or it is not. With that said, you may have something that could be illegal, but is not known to be illegal and may not have been the specific subject matter of a charge before. In such an event, the relevant judge (and perhaps later one or more Courts of Appeals) would then decide whether or not the specific subject matter act violates the law that the authorities purport that it violates.

Laws also vary from state to state. Colorado has a strange law not only in that taking slot tickets (or putting your ticket in with credits already on the machine) is not only illegal, but that they'll also prosecute virtually any instance of it, including obviously accidental, to the fullest extent of the law. Pennsylvania has a similar law, but I'm not aware of any prosecution under the statute and particularly not for minor amounts.

Anyway, "A little above the law," is not something that means anything. An action is either legal, illegal or the specific applicability of an action to a legal statute has not yet been decided upon.

Quote: Nathan

It's possible that he had pangs of guilt and confessed to her that he robbed her Father and she was like,"Dad, I'm scared." Dark admitted she texted him that she was scared and couldn't believe she'd been so naive.

The way I read it, when she texted, "I'm scared," she was still with the fiance and was worried about what was going to go down with the former son-in-law. Probably that he was going to, "Take care," of the fiance.

In the context of the story, she didn't leave the fiance until she thought that she was getting, "Proof," that he didn't do it. Of course, she could know he did it and still think that maybe there was going to be something circumstantial that would point to someone else. Either that, or maybe she just decided to bail.

Again, everyone is different and looks at things in a different way. That said, I have to believe that DarkOz either knows she had something to do with it or believes that she may have had something to do with it to drop her from the team. The only reason he would drop her is if he feels like he can no longer trust her.

Quote: Mission146

I also disagree with the verbiage, "A little above the law." There is no, 'a little.'

Sure there is. They banned you and
would trespass you and have you
arrested if you came back. They
had to constantly look over their
shoulders. Oh, I forgot. If the cops
stopped you with a van load of
out of state cans, they confiscated
them. So the people who did this
were in a constant state of stress
and paranoia. The store would also
take your machine tickets and take
whatever cans you had left.

Not illegal, but verrrry close.

Quote: EvenBob

Sure there is. They banned you and
would trespass you and have you
arrested if you came back. They
had to constantly look over their
shoulders. Oh, I forgot. If the cops
stopped you with a van load of
out of state cans, they confiscated
them. So the people who did this
were in a constant state of stress
and paranoia. The store would also
take your machine tickets and take
whatever cans you had left.

Not illegal, but verrrry close.

Yeah, but selling the cans was either illegal or not illegal. You said they made it illegal, so at that point, it was illegal.

As far as banning/trespassing the people, are you talking about before or after Michigan introduced the law? If before, then they were trespassing them for a non-criminal act, which is fully within their right. Returning after being trespassed would then be criminal trespass, defiant trespass or some similar thing. If they banned/trespassed them after the law change, then they were simply choosing not to prosecute to the full extent of the law, which made it illegal to do what they were doing in the first place. Kind of a, 'Warning shot,' but it doesn't change what the law is or isn't or what charge could theoretically have been made.

As far as the cops stopping people with the out of state cans, if this was after the law went into effect, then that is simply a matter of the cops preventing a crime from taking place. I'm guessing driving around with a truck or van full of cans in and of itself is not illegal.

As you can see, the law talks about a person, "Returning," the out-of-state containers:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(dszjzzjtlexdfgrtbd4wg4h4))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-445-574a

However, if the cops confiscate the containers, then the person has not returned them and, as a result, has not violated the law. That is unless there is a Michigan law that covers possession of any such containers with intent to return them unlawfully, but I have not found any such law. I didn't search that hard, though.

The law also covers dealers and distributors, so my guess is there was some collusion with those entities, at one time, as they made the law such that those entities are not supposed to accept non-refundable containers and can face charges for so doing.

There were a few factors in deciding to drop her from the team.

It wasnt so much falling in love with the wrong man but knowing his past and still bringing him around my business and my money without seeing how this could be a problem

It was knowing her boyfriend had a history of robbery she still keeps that a secret (after I have been robbed) and instead points the finger at a team member who never did anything to be accused of robbery except sleep with her dad. This caused as outlined innumerable headaches and time wasted.

It was the refusal to discuss the Matter when my detective work placed my poiinters in the right direction

There are probably a few other reasons

I am not throwing her over my knee and spanking her. I never did that. But it is time for her to move on

I am pretty certain she was unaware of the robbery itself but fully aware the likelihood was her fiance from the beginning

so lets just say you have all of these cards i have no reason to not believe you and i dont see why anyone else would.

But i say you had alot of trust in the value of those cards. I have countless amounts of cards made for me and they all can equally access the same information with the pin.

Unless the company keeps a unique id for each card, then they usually are employing some kind of single sign-on technique where if a new card is made, then the old card can be voided and essentially worthless.

How do you keep track of that and or keep it from happening?

You also sometimes have to spend the money and make that amount of money back in order to cash out that money. What are the chances you are always receiving 100% of what that card is worth to you, if you paid for it in some manner whether it be cash or trade?

I have actually tried this but it didnt seem worth it to me as i only have one casino that i go to

the only thing i can think of is that the people you have cards to replenish the points and cash and you are allowed by them to drain them when you want or periodically.

Darkoz, you want my card? You can keep all the profits, I just want free hotels in Vegas.

There are some interesting discussions about player card hustling in this thread.
I'm not asking about techniques or methods. I'm interested in the discussion of the legalities.
Could someone start a new thread for these discussions?

I would do it but since I'm not one of the forum stars the thread would probably be ignored.

So I think this story should be saved as a blog for easy reading. Just an idea.

Dark Oz posted a few months ago he doesn't take people from the internet on his team. Only trusted friends and family gain his inner circle or words to that effect.

Quote: darkoz

There were a few factors in deciding to drop her from the team.

It wasnt so much falling in love with the wrong man but knowing his past and still bringing him around my business and my money without seeing how this could be a problem

That is questionable decision-making, I'll grant that. Particularly the part where she doesn't decide to at least tell you about it.

Quote:

It was knowing her boyfriend had a history of robbery she still keeps that a secret (after I have been robbed) and instead points the finger at a team member who never did anything to be accused of robbery except sleep with her dad. This caused as outlined innumerable headaches and time wasted.

Yeah, so she knows of his history and is still trying to point the finger elsewhere. That's what makes it a bowling ball sized pill for me to swallow that she didn't know about it the whole time, but always knew she could bail. I don't care if she's engaged to the guy or not, you were burglarized, he's done six years for robbery, that should make him suspect numero uno even in her eyes. If not suspect number one, at least a viable candidate to be a suspect.

It just seems that wanting to ask a convicted robber who is close to you about a robbery is not a reason for her to go storming off with the guy. In what way are you not behaving reasonably by wanting to ask these questions? If he's not guilty, then why not just confront you rather than trying to take off with her and the kids? Why allow herself and the kids to take off with the guy if he's not guilty and is actually claiming TO HER that he's not guilty?

I would think a reasonable person's position in her shoes, and again we're all different, would be to ask her fiance' just to stay the course and discuss the matter with you.

Quote:

It was the refusal to discuss the Matter when my detective work placed my poiinters in the right direction

There are probably a few other reasons

I am not throwing her over my knee and spanking her. I never did that. But it is time for her to move on

I am pretty certain she was unaware of the robbery itself but fully aware the likelihood was her fiance from the beginning

Being aware that he is the most likely culprit and trying to point the finger elsewhere is just as good as being aware that he did it. That's still a cover up. Also, why would she think that he would want to break into your girlfriend's unless he KNOWS he is going to find something? Of course he knows he is going to find something, because he is going to plant it there. That also explains why her first thought would be your girlfriend, particularly if she knew about it.

I'll just say that if she was not aware of it, then her decisions are mind-numbing. That's not to say that she's not a generally intelligent person or to insult her, how the hell would I know if she is or isn't? I'm just saying that her decisions, based on your posts and as relates this one event are completely beyond my comprehension.

I think it's more likely that she knew about it, but always knew she could bail if it went south. If not pre-knowledge, then knowledge shortly after the event took place.