SHOOTING at Mandalay festival
No one knew where it was coming from for minutes.
I think by the time most law enforcement figured out where the direction was, there was no time for blockades as it was already over..
And the news stations were too busy trying to scoop each other and basically making things up until more professional people on site came forward with press conferences.
Quote: billryanIf the time from the first shot until the last was somewhere between seven and twelve minutes, where would a fleet of armored cars be assembled and transported to the scene? If Metro has any tank like vehicles, they aren't on 24 hour standby, nor can they magically requisition armored cars from a private company. Ten O'clock on a Sunday night, you aren't going to have a bunch of armored car drivers sitting around, watching for an emergency dispatch.
I believe non-gunshot wounds greatly outnumbered the gunshot victims.
I agree. Probably for every direct hit, multiple people were hit with the carry through including ricochets and material shrapnel. How many were hit on the bounce?
I will admit that given the day of the week and the time of night this took place the probable response time would have been too great but no one knew how long it would last. Even during the daytime Texas Tower sniper incident it took awhile for anyone to think of using armored cars as impromptu ambulances and it certainly took even more time for even one to arrive.
Telephone calls to the switchboard operators apparently helped localize the shooter's position and certainly the events outside 3215 should have localized the shooter's position but it appears that it may not have done so since there was so much confusion on the frequencies involved.
Given the munitions involved and the range, I would fear that some shots would indeed travel clear through a person and hit someone else. Hiding under a corpse would not be a guarantee of anything but probably would be better than laying out in the open or standing out in the open.
I don't see hotel liability until the hallway shooting at which time it should have been : Call 911 and say: Active Shooter in Suite 3215 at Mandalay Bay.
The hotel security and maintenance department were in possession of the exact location of the shooter and all those responding cops, ambulances, fire engines were confused as to where the shots were coming from and where they were going.
The scene was too chaotic to expect instantaneous response by MB.
They did nothing wrong that I can see, which will mean the platoon of plaintiff's personal injury / wrongful death attorneys will have to look elsewhere for a deep pocket.
Hint: there isn't one.
I'm sure it was chaotic and I imagine some were doing the 'when in doubt, run in circles, curse and shout" routine.Quote: MrVThe scene was too chaotic to expect instantaneous response by MB..
But the security SUPERVISOR knew the exact location of the shooter and had a clear frequency.
The Maintainance SUPERVISOR knew the exact location of the shooter.
None of the first arriving cops declared himself Incident Command and collected information, summarized it and relayed to arriving personnel.
A clear concise : At least one shooter is barricaded in 3215 and is shooting into the crowd at the music festival. This was known at the start but not communicated to anyone.
The guy stopped shooting eleven minutes after he started.
What difference would it have made?
Armchair quarterbacks always see things SO clearly.
Quote: FleaStiffI'm sure it was chaotic and I imagine some were doing the 'when in doubt, run in circles, curse and shout" routine.
But the security SUPERVISOR knew the exact location of the shooter and had a clear frequency.
The Maintainance SUPERVISOR knew the exact location of the shooter.
None of the first arriving cops declared himself Incident Command and collected information, summarized it and relayed to arriving personnel.
A clear concise : At least one shooter is barricaded in 3215 and is shooting into the crowd at the music festival. This was known at the start but not communicated to anyone.
Was this information released in the last week or so? Were is this info coming from may I ask?
Quote: sammydvI agree. Probably for every direct hit, multiple people were hit with the carry through including ricochets and material shrapnel. How many were hit on the bounce?
/pedantry on
The .223 (5.56x45mm) was derided by the Army precisely because it doesn't have a lot of power. It's also why so many, both 5-0 and John Doe, are turning to them for personal defense. In ballistics test spanning all manner of construction (soft vs FMJ vs hp), using scenarios from point blank open shots to through walls from a short distance, the .223 was beaten by both the standard police issue .40cal shot from a Glock 22, and the 12ga shotgun slug from a regular ol' Remington 870, two of possibly the most common police and citizen use calibers. In fact, it was found that while it could be used to shoot through car doors and windows, it could not be assumed to be reliable to shoot through a windshield. In addition, it has a higher likelihood of fragmentation than does its bigger cousins. This of course increases your potential for "shrapnel" injuries, but it also makes said injuries to be much less critical in nature.
In short, a .223 isn't going through a person and hitting another person. It can, of course; a .22lr could as well. But for all intents and purposes, the .223 is wayyy down the list of over penetration worries. This is not a case of 58 people plunked and 450 folks catching keyholes. It's simply how info is reported. If you get trampled, catch a leg on barbed wire during a vault, smash your head jumping into a car, you are a "shooting incident casualty".
/pedantry off
@Rigon - it's been many days, but I've thought about your post every single one of them. That podcast almost made me feel shame, as it felt like I had plagiarized the guy despite never hearing that before. But there was something about it, maybe familiarity, maybe just relief that someone else is out there is having the same difficult thoughts, but whatever it was, it caused a whole bunch of the jumble in my head to slot into place. I hate to write this post because I can't possibly put into words what I'm trying to say, or explain what it made me feel. Just, THANK YOU. Thanks for making the effort, thanks for taking the time to post it. Stay woke, my friend.
Perhaps even a somewhat flimsy barrier would have protected people by at least slowing the projectile. Those metal crowd control fence sections had four inch gaps, I think. Two or three placed together would be much less porous.
With everyone running its hard to have the ability to stop and think, you probably have to go with the flow or be trampled.
Its generally best to run toward an elevated shooter so as to get "under the guns" rather than try to run away faster than his bullets will be travelling. People may not have known where the shooter was; though I would always assume elevated.
Its obvious there was much confusion, but the security guard and maintenance man each contacted their supervisors directly, one of them choosing to do so by cell phone rather than radio so as to leave the frequency clear. Each of them stayed and answered police questions but something delayed the vital information of 'shooter barricaded in Suite 3215' and while police personnel may have arrived in the area Swat equipment did not arrive promptly enough. Should the cops have shot thru the door and maybe killed innocent bystanders on the theory that if they didn't hit the shooter they might at least distract him? Lawsuits for sure if they had.
As far as the guns go, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't many, if not most newer AR15 types capable of shooting either the .223 or the much deadlier .556?
All your responses are based on knowing there was only one shooter.
A well trained team would always include a person firing from a sniper position, covering the rest of the teams movements and positions. You can't assume a sniper is operating alone.
Yes, we all do. Yet that is what exercises and seminars and after-action reports are for.Quote: MrVArmchair quarterbacks always see things SO clearly.
Focus on the shooter you know, worry about accomplices later.
Don't search an entire floor to be certain you are alone, proceed to the shooter and have last two officers walk backwards.
No perimeter, no assessment.... get to the shooter and put him down.
Quote: billryanKill a man in combat, he's dead and his companions are pissed off. Wound a man and his companions are distracted from their mission, giving aid to the wounded soldier. It can take two soldiers to transport a wounded soldier to the first aid station. In the short term, you are better offer severely wounding an enemy soldier rather than killing him.
As far as the guns go, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't many, if not most newer AR15 types capable of shooting either the .223 or the much deadlier .556?
The military uses the M16 which is chambered for the 5.56 NATO round. Civilian AR-15's are chambered in either .223 or 5.56. You should not attempt to fire 5.56 in a .223 chambered rifle. You can fire .223 in a 5.56 all you want.
5.56mm mil-spec is loaded hotter than .223 therefore creating higher chamber pressure.
There were pics of DD M4's in the pics of his room. Those rifles fire a much larger and deadlier .308 round. A lot of the pics and video make no sense to people familiar with firearms.
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I am by no means a firearms expert. Just an old USMC 0311. So take my opinions for what they are worth.
No question, just pulled a typical AR 15 off the web to show many of them can fire either round. Even at auction, 7.62 rounds are not cheap.
Once upon a time I could fieldstrip a 16, a .45 and an M-60 blindfolded or in total darkness, but that as a long time ago.
Quote: billryanMy only long gun is a .69 caliber black powder that I wouldn't let Chum Lee fire. It's for decoration only. When the zombies come, I'll meet them with Japanese forged steel.
No question, just pulled a typical AR 15 off the web to show many of them can fire either round. Even at auction, 7.62 rounds are not cheap.
Once upon a time I could fieldstrip a 16, a .45 and an M-60 blindfolded or in total darkness, but that as a long time ago.
That one is chambered in 5.56.
I know one 47 year old civilian Defense Contractor whose position came under a sudden intense attack at 2:00 in the morning. It all comes back to you when you need it. He knew not to be first into the slit trenches because then everyone jumps in on top of you and as the attack wore on, he remembered how to field strip an M-16 because he had to remember how to do it or die.Quote: billryanOnce upon a time I could fieldstrip a 16, a .45 and an M-60 blindfolded or in total darkness, but that as a long time ago.
Hattori Hanzō ?Quote: billryanWhen the zombies come, I'll meet them with Japanese forged steel.
Full Tang, obviously.
Quote:TNS) LOS ANGELES -- A brother of Las Vegas mass shooter Stephen Paddock has been arrested in North Hollywood on suspicion of possessing hundreds of images of child pornography, according to authorities.
Bruce Douglas Paddock, 58, was taken into custody at a nursing facility in the 5300 block of Laurel Canyon Boulevard on Wednesday morning. Television news footage showed Paddock in a wheelchair being loaded into the back of a van by Los Angeles Police Department officers.
Documents filed Tuesday in Los Angeles County Superior Court outlined 20 criminal charges against Paddock, all related to possession of child pornography or the sexual exploitation of a child. The felony complaint for arrest warrant said that Paddock stands accused of having more than 600 images of child or youth pornography, including 10 or more images showing a child younger than 12.
Quote: MaxPenDid they swap out his hard drive with one of Podesta's or Weiner's?
No, I think it was one of these.
Quote:Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd was arrested on suspicion of soliciting sex with an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.
Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
Republican Committeeman John R. Curtain was charged with molesting a teenage boy and unlawful sexual contact with a minor.
Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.
Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was charged with molesting his 9-year old step-daughter after including her in an anti-Gore television commercial.
Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.
Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child.
Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline was placed under house arrest for child molestation and possession of child pornography.
Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.
Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.
Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.
Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.
Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.
Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.
Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.
Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.
Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.
Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).
Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was found guilty of molesting a 15-year old girl.
Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.
Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.
Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.
Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.
Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.
Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.
Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.
Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.
Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.
Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.
Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.
Republican president of the New York City Housing Development Corp. Russell Harding pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer.
Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency.
Republican serial killer Ted Bundy was hired by the Republican Party
Republican activist Matthew Glavin, who preached family values, was caught masturbating in public and fondling an undercover park ranger
Republican Party Chairman Sam Walls, who is married, was urged to drop his candidacy for Congress when it was found he likes to dress up in women's clothing
Republican Congressman Edward Schrock resigned from Congress after he was caught searching for sex on a gay telephone service
Republican Mayor Jim West Republican voter Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City championed an anti-gay agenda, but was later found to be gay himself
Republican preacher Jimmy Swaggart preached fidelity, but cheated on his wife with a prostitute
Republican Congressman Bob Livingston was about to vote for impeaching President Clinton for sexual improprieties until it was disclosed he was an adulterer
Republican Congressman Henry Hyde denounced President Clinton's extramarital affair, but was later found to be an adulterer himself
Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.
Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was found guilty of raping a 15-year old girl. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren,
One brother had genes for a mass shooting while the other brother had genes for being homeless and having a twenty year history of sex offenses?
One brother had genes for wagering over a million dollars a night while the other brother had genes for living in a squat?
You sure genes have anything to do with this?
Quote: FleaStiffGenes??
One brother had genes for a mass shooting while the other brother had genes for being homeless and having a twenty year history of sex offenses?
One brother had genes for wagering over a million dollars a night while the other brother had genes for living in a squat?
You sure genes have anything to do with this?
You forgot their father once on FBI most wanted list.
Escapees often get that. I believe his underlying offense was bank robbery. There are lots of those. And don't forget, one of the founding fathers of Las Vegas had two homicide charges levied against him.Quote: rxwineYou forgot their father once on FBI most wanted list.
Off topic question - wonder how long the Democratic list is?
Too long for this board.Quote: sammydv@rxwine:
Off topic question - wonder how long the Democratic list is?
Quote: billryan
As far as the guns go, forgive me if I am mistaken but aren't many, if not most newer AR15 types capable of shooting either the .223 or the much deadlier .556?
You're conflating metric with bullspit Imperial (support my candidacy, the metric standard will be the foundation of my rule). .223 is an Imperial measurement, specifically .223 of one inch. 5.56 is its metric translation, as in 5.56mm.
As Maxpen pointed out, there is more difference than just which standard you use. 5.56 is the "hot" round. Think .38 vs .357. It's the "same" round, each round will fire in either a .38 or .357 chambered gun, but a .38 round in a .357 pistol will fire long after you're dead, while popping off .357 in a .38 is a game of chance to see when your firearm becomes a grenade.
I would assume that most modern civ-spec, military-esque rifles, like the AR, would be in 5.56 as opposed to .223, though that's just a thought based on no research at all.
The "much deadlier" round when talking the wrongly named "assault rifles" is the 7.62mm (.308), and yes, it is easy as pie to get a modern semi chambered as such. I have one, and it's a proper tool. I still prefer my Mosin when shooting the big calibers, but my DPMS is the go-to for big distance. This is the round that your M60 spits. And any man that bump stocks one of these is a man not allowed on my range lol.
Quote: rxwineNo, I think it was one of these.
Good one.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/i-hope-someone-truly-shoots-you-online-conspiracy-theorists-harass-vegas-victims/ar-AAu66jn?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
Quote: rxwineVegas shooting victims called fakers and paid actors. Pretty sad.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/i-hope-someone-truly-shoots-you-online-conspiracy-theorists-harass-vegas-victims/ar-AAu66jn?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
WTF is wrong with people these days??
I just don't get it.
The same thing that has always been wrong with them, only now its possible to utter garbage to the whole world rather than just in the town square.Quote: beachbumbabsWTF is wrong with people these days??
You should see some of the vitriol and utter nonsense that is out there in immense amounts.
Jonbenet Ramsey was killed because her mother was about to turn forty.
Patsy Ramsey realized that her daughter was too short to ever win the Miss America pageant and therefor killed her.
The McCanns and their dinner companions were the ones who killed Madie McCann in Portugal.
Foxy Knoxy and her boyfriend tortured and killed the roommate.
WPC McKee had sex at a murder scene and left her finger print at the scene. (That went all the way to a Royal Commission of Inquiry and still the truth of the forensic services fraud never emerged).
A 14 year old lad killed his Easthouses girl friend despite his not leaving his dna at the scene, but the four men whose dna was left on, in or near the corpse were all innocent. (He was sentenced to 20 years at hard labor followed by up to life imprisonment but will probably serve only 40 years. To this day other prisoners stand silently for two minutes whenever he is present. ).
There are tunnels under the McMartin Day School that allowed pedophiles access to the children. (The entire debacle caused by an alcoholic ex-mental patient who accused the school teacher, the Mayor and the Pope of molesting her son).
However, it also brings up an interesting point, which is, if you or someone you directly know wasn't "there" to see it first hand, how do you know it really happened? As the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, "If a woman talks in a forest and no one is around to hear it, is she still wrong?" When I say "there" I don't specifically mean at the LV strip on Oct. 1, but anywhere else where you aren't that something "big" is happening (like wtf how we know North Korea is all f***ed up n hwatnot?).
Quote: beachbumbabsWTF is wrong with people these days??
I just don't get it.
When facts do not align with scummy people’s narrative, they will make up facts to convince themselves of.
This happens with every mass shooting, I think mainly people claiming they are false flags set up politicians so they can take away guns, or because they expected the shooter to be Muslim. You can find many conspiracy scumbags who do not believe Sandy Hook was real either.
I think the sheriff's releasing of uncorroborated timelines was a mistake.
Instead of Shooter check in on Date..... in should have been Shooter checked in Date (based upon source XYZ).
The utter lack of an attempt to support the timeline statements and the glaring omisssions from the timeline makes everyone distrust the sheriff's capabilities.
NPR's "Two Way" has transcripts and audio clips . Good source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/01/mandalay-bay-says-four-armed-officers-were-on-the-32nd-floor-as-the-las-vegas-shooter-attacked-should-they-have-acted/
Article Title is:
"Mandalay Bay says four armed officers were on the 32nd floor as the Las Vegas shooter attacked. Should they have acted ?"
What? Actually earn their money and do what they've been paid to do? Radio it in and then draw your weapons and make entry.Quote: JohnnyQMandalay Bay says four armed officers were on the 32nd floor as the Las Vegas shooter attacked. Should they have acted?
BUT I wasn't there and could therefore never second-guess the actions of someone who was.
If the situation was reversed and the police were heavily armed with assault weapons and Paddock only had a pistol, then YEAH I think the police should have taken him on and made entry to the room.
I just edited my post to clarify that the Article title is:
"Mandalay Bay says four armed officers were on the 32nd floor as the Las Vegas shooter attacked. Should they have acted?"
That said, I don't think two cops should charge down a hallway and try and kick in the door of a room where automatic gunfire is coming from.
I have an issue with the SWAT team evidently not entering Pulse nightclub for an extended period, but I don't see any issues here. I reserve the right to change my mind as more information leaks out.
Quote: JohnnyQI have been surprised/dismayed by the changing timeline and sequence of events.
BUT I wasn't there and could therefore never second-guess the actions of someone who was.
If the situation was reversed and the police were heavily armed with assault weapons and Paddock only had a pistol, then YEAH I think the police should have taken him on and made entry to the room.
I just edited my post to clarify that the Article title is:
"Mandalay Bay says four armed officers were on the 32nd floor as the Las Vegas shooter attacked. Should they have acted?"
The ones who were present and not necessarily agreeing with the narrarrative set forth by the powers that be seem to be meeting an early demise.ðź™„
Quote: JohnnyQ"Mandalay Bay says four armed officers were on the 32nd floor as the Las Vegas shooter attacked. Should they have acted?"
If you thought you had a madman shooting up his room, perhaps killing people in it you might think it's pointless to rush in quickly as people in there are probably dead. Finding out at some point he's shooting into crowds of people is much more urgent.
What did they think was happening? Did they think it was confined to the room? How long before they knew the exact nature of what was going on? That's one thing I would want to know.
With full automatic weapon fire going out the window mowing down unarmed concert goers, I would have fired blindly right thru the door without regard for any innocent bystanders that might be in the room. I would certainly have put a few rounds thru the lock mechainism. (Perhaps that is why no one would want me on a swat team). After the swat entry and confirmation that the shooter was dead, one swat officer accidentally fired a round in a different room in the suite.
A man with a pistol has the advantage over a man with a rifle. The longer the barrel, the wider the arc of swinging it around. One well aimed shot from a pistol and the shooter would have gone down. Yes, he had cameras unknown to the four members of the Apple Munching Gang, but he was doing his spraying and praying out the window, not staring at cameras.
Eons ago two Los Angeles gangs happened to meet at the Luxor and exchanged their traditional greetings with some security guards joining into the exchange of lead.
That incident was filmed so it aided the casino big wigs in finding out that their guards couldn't hit a darn thing even at fairly close range. So the casino disarmed them and the ones that did retain weapons were given rather high requirements for performance at the range.
Still, if you have a semi automatic pistol you should be able to get off four shots before a man with a rifle can turn around and fire one round at you.
