Spanish 21 and Race

Good evening everyone,

I have wanted to make this post for almost a year, but I didn't because the subject might be controversial. However, I want to emphasize that I do not have any bad intentions, and I am looking at this from an anthropological viewpoint.

When I started gambling last year on the East Coast, I noticed that in the Miami and DMV area, everyone who I saw playing the game Spanish 21 was of African-American descent. When I played with them, they all seemed to know the basic strategy (maybe not perfectly but at least fairly well), and most were superstitious regarding where they sat and what decisions other players made. Personally I perceived these individuals to be smarter than other casino patrons, after all they chose the game with the lowest house edge. I will note that I did not see any African-Americans playing Spanish 21 in Atlantic City, but I also don't recall seeing anyone of any background (other than me) playing Spanish 21 there.

I was wondering, why is Spanish 21 popular among African-Americans? At first I recalled how I was in a mostly African-American checkers club in DC where they play a game called "Spanish Pool Checkers". I thought that historic Spanish influence on the Caribbean and parts of the American South might have something to do with the popularity of Spanish Pool Checkers and Spanish 21 (which does genuinely have Spanish influence by using a Spanish deck) but these are probably unrelated. Additionally, if Spanish influence had something to do with this, you would think Spanish 21 would be more popular with Hispanic-Americans.

Anyways, does anyone have any insight into why this game might be especially popular among this race? While I know that some games or side bets appeal to Asian-Americans (like Panda 8 in Baccarat), do any table games intentionally appeal to any other demographics?

What does 'Miami and dmv' mean?

Gamblers seem to be less paranoid about talking about race than other people, at least in connection with what you see in casinos etc. However, since you only saw this in Miami it sounds like just a local thing that got started for random reasons

Is noticing a group characteristic of a race a racist thing? If it is non-pejorative, talking about it can go over OK with most, but not all, people ... but if the opposite is true you are poking at a hornet's nest

I've played an awful lot of Spanish 21, mostly on the East Coast, and it is quite a colorful crowd! Most of my really good stories start with "I was playing Spanish 21 at 3 AM in Atlantic City..."

In the Northeast I saw it treated as mostly an Oriental game, but there were a lot of black players too. Not many Hispanic, I guess because they know darned well there's nothing Spanish about it. But I had a good joke along those lines, only for males: if I have a 13 or 14 I say "Look, I have a Spanish 21!" Any guy from Latin America laughs and gets it.

The biggest appeal for most players is the sidebet, the Match the Dealer. I think people instinctively realize that with the Spanish pack, the paytable of 3 for a match and 12 for a suited match is even money for an infinite deck game. Of course it's no longer even money with non-infinite decks. Almost everyone plays it, and being a counter I only play it sometimes.

I think the demographic appeal comes more from who doesn't play it very much: picture this guy- big, middle aged white guy with just a mustache, loud gruff voice from Westchester, Rockland, Suffolk or thereabouts, drinks a bit, knows it all, aggressive, impatient. Where do you find that guy? At a straight blackjack table or craps table. Guys like that are a turnoff to many people in other demos, and vice versa. So it's a matter of people wanting to play with others who are similar to them in attitude at the table.

Now as far as the strategy: in my experience, if you see someone playing correct strategy at all, they're probably a counter. Most people play it as blackjack strategy and some of them get very mad if you play correctly, especially the strategy for the bonus hands and for low counts. Hitting 16 vs. 2 you will do every day, as well as hitting an 8-7 vs. 3 or a 3 card 17 vs. A.

One time I'm playing Spanish 21 in Atlantic City, and there's a guy next to me griping and howling about my play, convinced that it is my correct play causing him to lose and not his incorrect play. Then when I get a 13 vs. 6, normally a hit in basic strategy, he stands up, draws his fist back and dares me to take a hit. I don't need to mention his demographic.

Now there were a few ways I could play that. One is react to the assault of the drawn fist and end up getting banned and probably arrested and sued. (Life is not fair for my demographic.) Or I could let him hit me, and then indulge myself, and likely get banned but less risk of civil or criminal penalty. Or I could let him hit me and take a dive, and sue him and the casino but especially the casino. After all, I am there to make money. But I had a bigger (to me) problem: the count had gone up and 13 vs. 6 was now a stand!

Never in my life have I let heat from another player deter me from playing correctly. But I didn't want this guy to think I was a coward and declined to hit the same hand I hit earlier in the shoe because I was afraid of him. But the dealer made the decision for me: he squared his shoe (which in Casino means "I'm not dealing another card until my supervisor comes over here and sees what is going on.") and security came over and said to him "We'd like to talk to you" and that was that. But it's a good illustration of how rough the crowd can be at Spanish 21. They can be absolutely friendly and fun too, and I've had some very enjoyable, low-stress sessions along with the rough ones.

I'd say they found a $5 Spanish 21 table where only $10 or $15 BJ tables exist; or they found a $10 Spanish 21 table where only $15/$25 BJ tables exist. Most of the people I see on the tables are hot to play Match The Dealer bets for $5 or $10/hand and if I'm not playing it, they want to put money on my spot to play an extra spot. The payouts on the side bet might be better on the Spanish 21 table, but the HA is around 3% for those bets.

People are far less likely to get booted out of a casino playing Spanish 21 under suspicion of counting cards, and minorities might feel like they have a target on their back playing regular BJ tables, and avoid them.

I'm sure I can beat Spanish 21 at the table, but I haven't had any luck, it's just a long losing streak leaving me wondering where the lucky shoe is. I've had better luck at BJ tables. I'm not swayed to play Spanish 21 for the $5K super bonus because it's just too rare, a 1/600K chance.

I usually find a cheap $5 table and within a minute of my sitting down they raise the limit, so I've got to be prepared to play at the $10 limit if I'm 5 seconds late.

Quote: odiousgambit

What does 'Miami and dmv' mean?

Sorry, DMV means the Greater DC Area (DC, Maryland, Virginia), (and Miami means Miami).

Quote: odiousgambit

Gamblers seem to be less paranoid about talking about race than other people, at least in connection with what you see in casinos etc. However, since you only saw this in Miami it sounds like just a local thing that got started for random reasons

I thought it was random but I saw it in two different cities, and at least one of the women I talked to at the table was from out of town and usually played at her own casino out-of-state.

Maybe I will ask a dealer or pitboss if they have any insight next time I gamble in Florida or DC.

Don’t leave us hanging on your 13 vs 6! Did the correct play win??

Had a Russian dude Insist he could predict the cards and would hit basically everything in Spanish 21!

He would erroneously predict cards for 6 - 7 hands in a row and people would just shake their heads in disbelief how reckless he was.

Then he had a hard 16 vs dealer 6 and he goes "I KNOW it's a low one... HIT ME!" And a collective groan is heard.

Dealer hesitates and asks again "Hit or stand!"

Papa Rusky says "HIT!" And out comes... ACE!

Dealer flips a Picture card and BUSTS! Nobody says a word and just shakes their heads again...

He of course starts going "See I Told YOU! I Knew it!"

I go "Great, now just make up for the other 6 times you were wrong and we're all good!!!"

Quote: smoothgrh

Don’t leave us hanging on your 13 vs 6! Did the correct play win??
link to original post

Probably not!

The ones I remember best are the hard 17s I've hit. I remember it was a 6 card hard 17 against something, black chip down, I call for a hit and they give me that incredulous "Seventeen!" as if I didn't know. I say "Yes, I'd like a hit, and 3 black please." Sure enough it was the 4. People grumbling about witchcraft.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: smoothgrh

Don’t leave us hanging on your 13 vs 6! Did the correct play win??
link to original post

Probably not!

The ones I remember best are the hard 17s I've hit. I remember it was a 6 card hard 17 against something, black chip down, I call for a hit and they give me that incredulous "Seventeen!" as if I didn't know. I say "Yes, I'd like a hit, and 3 black please." Sure enough it was the 4. People grumbling about witchcraft.
link to original post

I wish I could say I don't believe you, but I think I've seen it happen enough times...
Calling the suit is always a nice touch.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: smoothgrh

Don’t leave us hanging on your 13 vs 6! Did the correct play win??
link to original post

Probably not!

The ones I remember best are the hard 17s I've hit. I remember it was a 6 card hard 17 against something, black chip down, I call for a hit and they give me that incredulous "Seventeen!" as if I didn't know. I say "Yes, I'd like a hit, and 3 black please." Sure enough it was the 4. People grumbling about witchcraft.
link to original post

I wish I could say I don't believe you, but I think I've seen it happen enough times...
Calling the suit is always a nice touch.
link to original post

Oh I was just messing with them, lucky draw. But with the system I use there was both an increased chance of getting a 4, and justification for betting a black.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: smoothgrh

Don’t leave us hanging on your 13 vs 6! Did the correct play win??
link to original post

Probably not!

The ones I remember best are the hard 17s I've hit. I remember it was a 6 card hard 17 against something, black chip down, I call for a hit and they give me that incredulous "Seventeen!" as if I didn't know. I say "Yes, I'd like a hit, and 3 black please." Sure enough it was the 4. People grumbling about witchcraft.
link to original post

I wish I could say I don't believe you, but I think I've seen it happen enough times...
Calling the suit is always a nice touch.
link to original post

Oh I was just messing with them, lucky draw. But with the system I use there was both an increased chance of getting a 4, and justification for betting a black.
link to original post

Indeed. Observers disproportionately forget when you get a spade instead of a club, but never seem to shut up about it when you call a 50-50 right.

I actually know of a real life story where someone did punch a third base player broke his jaw who took a hit with a hard 15 (dealer 5 up), player busted with a 10, and cost the puncher a table limit double down (11 got a 9 for 20 total) where the dealer had 15 and hit to 21 with a 6.

Apparently the double down player and the other player at the table tried to convince the (had only bet a tiny amount) guy to not hit and offered him his full bet each, to just stay.

In this case the player was down to his last chips and had to hold up the game and go to the cage to get a big credit card cash advance so there was apparently a lot riding on this.

The end result: all bad. At that moment if someone had tried to tell him that player error doesn’t affect long term outcome I assume there might have been a second broken jaw on the floor.

Quote: MDawg

I actually know of a real life story where someone did punch a third base player broke his jaw who took a hit with a hard 15 (dealer 5 up), player busted with a 10, and cost the puncher a table limit double down (11 got a 9 for 20 total) where the dealer had 15 and hit to 21 with a 6.

Apparently the double down player and the other player at the table tried to convince the (had only bet a tiny amount) guy to not hit and offered him his full bet each, to just stay.

In this case the player was down to his last chips and had to hold up the game and go to the cage to get a big credit card cash advance so there was apparently a lot riding on this.

The end result: all bad. At that moment if someone had tried to tell him that player error doesn’t affect long term outcome I assume there might have been a second broken jaw on the floor.
link to original post

Always present in a casino are people with psychiatric issues, that they are "self-medicating" with gambling and alcohol.

Also one of the characteristics of addiction is blame, and a person who is destroying himself with compulsive gambling is going to rush to blame everyone around him but himself.