patriotic torturers

Quote: Zcore13

Pretty much.
.

ZCore13

I really do not want to get involved in this kind of conversation. But reading the news today, I will put into my 2 cents.
We human beings have progressed into a civilized society. We are far from the rule of jungle. We set up laws to protect everyone. I mean everyone , not the selected one.
"We torture them, they will torture us."
"I am against torture because I dont want to see our captured American soldiers tortured. "
I am not American. So I see this from a distance. You can wrap the act of torture in many ways but torture is torture.
There are other ways of extracting information.
If we fall back into the ancient way of doing things, this will be a really sad day

Quote: Boz

Shouldn't any post that links "Think Progress" immediately be discredited?

Its a good thing they not only put the source of their article the Senate report on torture but even put the page number of every claim they made sop that you could check everything they said. Here is the senate report itself http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf . So while yes Thinkprogress is a biased source and that bias can and does show through you cannot dismiss reality itself.

Quote: Boz

I can't help but wonder if you opinion is shaded by the ways it was abused in your country in the past. It was used on regular citizens and others that were not bad people. But when people fly planes into buildings, all bets are off in my opinion.

Do you really just not "get it", or do you refuse to?

When you refer to the people that fly planes into buildings does it not seem at least a little strange that fifteen of the eighteen hijackers were Saudi nationals as was OSB himself? We extreme rendition'd Afghans on tips from payed informants, some still imprisoned and went to war with Iraq and still no investigation as to the upper echelons of the Saudi family's part in this, really?

These "not bad people" that you refer to in Zuga's country are somehow more innocent then the million Iraqi's or 200k Syrians, or tens of thousands of Libyan's or a million Iranians [under the Shaw]? None of which had anything to do with the bldgs, none. All blowed to hell, dead, killed and maimed from "intelligence gathered". The wedding party's in Afghanistan are droned and the opium protected but you are waving some patriotic flag?

Think about it, we are responsible for killing over a million people that had nothing to do with the buildings, where is the rationality in that? Bush flew 140 of OSB's family out of this country when our airspace was shut down, without questioning any of them. It's ludicrous.

We are not going to be able to bomb people into loving us, or torture enough to make the world fear us. What I "can't help but wonder is how people still can't understand why we are creating all these "frenemies".

Quote: Twirdman

you cannot dismiss reality itself.

I beg to differ with you

Quote: petroglyph

These "not bad people" that you refer to in Zuga's country are somehow more innocent then the million Iraqi's or 200k Syrians, or tens of thousands of Libyan's or a million Iranians [under the Shaw]? None of which had anything to do with the bldgs, none. All blowed to hell, dead, killed and maimed from "intelligence gathered". The wedding party's in Afghanistan are droned and the opium protected but you are waving some patriotic flag?

Opium is protected to help the local economy. It is their main cash crop. If we destroyed it the farmers would be even poorer.

Quote:

Think about it, we are responsible for killing over a million people that had nothing to do with the buildings, where is the rationality in that? Bush flew 140 of OSB's family out of this country when our airspace was shut down, without questioning any of them. It's ludicrous.

Well it depends, there was a lot more to the operations in the Middle East than 9/11 even if that was the catalyst. For example Bill Clinton was pressured to take out Saddam by the Senate during his term as was Bush, but Bush did not want to do it until 9/11 and then he felt obligated to.

And the reason OSB family is well received is because they are rich and influential. They have no connections with their son . They have not been in touch with him for many years. But they own well off companies in the middle east, so yes they are good contacts, just because one of their sons went crazy does not mean we should condemn the whole family...

Quote:

We are not going to be able to bomb people into loving us, or torture enough to make the world fear us. What I "can't help but wonder is how people still can't understand why we are creating all these "frenemies".

I don't think that there is anyone disputing this. However both of those are sometimes needed in certain circumstances. And we don't torture to make anyone fear us, again its an information gathering technique that has been used a handful of times in extreme circumstances under Presidential approval (and not just Bush...).

If you want to see sadistic torture look at Saddams torture chambers... Or any of ISIS camps...

There are shades of grey in almost all politics. This is not one of them. Torture is torture.

Incarceration is an accepted practice separate from that. Providing nutrition to prisoners is part of that. Feeding tubes administered involuntarily are probably necessarily anal insertions, but if the objective is to not allow the prisoner to starve themselves to death while incarcerated, then it's not torture. I'm assuming there is evidence that the prisoner was not voluntarily eating enough to survive. If it was arbitrarily administered without such documentation, it probably also crosses the line into torture.

There's a reason the Geneva Conventions were drawn up, which was to delineate between responsible care of enemy combatants and unacceptable practices. Our patriotism, our wounds, and our motives in contravening them, none of them supercede what we agreed to in signing them. I would not be surprised if we get pulled into The Hague on violations charges.

Quote: beachbumbabs

none of them supercede what we agreed to in signing them..

This guy disagrees with you.

One question could be are terrorists who murder thousands of innocent people during peace time enemy combatants? I say no. They are foreign murdering terrorists that should receive very little to know rights.

ZCore13

Quote: EvenBob

This guy disagrees with you.

Yea, lets set policy by taking lessons from a total fantasy on TV.

Quote: Zcore13

One question could be are terrorists who murder thousands of innocent people during peace time enemy combatants. I say no. They are foreign murdering terrorists that should receive very little to know rights.

ZCore13

How do you know that those the military tortured are terrorists.
That's why I want to see a trial. I want to see the evidence.
Maybe the evidence is weak or does not exist.
I trust nobody, especially our incompetent military.
Who killed Tillman? The American military killed Tillman.
Lied to the family when they knew it was American soldiers that killed this hero.
The military is full of people that rape American service females.
The incompetent military cant even find these people that have committed crimes against our soldiers.
Lets see the evidence. That's the American way.

Quote: terapined

How do you know that those the military tortured are terrorists.
That's why I want to see a trial. I want to see the evidence.
Maybe the evidence is weak or does not exist.
I trust nobody, especially our incompetent military.
Who killed Tillman? The American military killed Tillman.
Lied to the family when they knew it was American soldiers that killed this hero.
The military is full of people that rape American service females.
The incompetent military cant even find these people that have committed crimes against our soldiers.
Lets see the evidence. That's the American way.

There are some things the public does not need to know about. That's why there are secret courts. Classified and sensitive information needs to stay secret until the number of years expires...

But your rant against the military is irrelevant since these allegations are against CIA and other black organizations.

Tillman was killed by accident, there was not some plot to kill him.

What crimes against soldiers have not been prosecuted? The reason you know about them is because of the cases...

Quote: terapined

Yea, lets set policy by taking lessons from a total fantasy on TV.

That's not the point of Jack Bauer. The point
is, under pressure, when lives are at stake,
you do what you have to do, the rules be
damned. Get it done, worry about the
consequences later.

Quote: Gandler

Quote:

Opium is protected to help the local economy. It is their main cash crop. If we destroyed it the farmers would be even poorer

So you are saying it is about the prosperity of poor Afghan farmers? Heroin [the destroyer of worlds] production is up more than 2000%, lots and lots of it on our streets as well as on the streets of our allies. I think a better use of their time is mining the trillion dollars in minerals that since discovered during this fight China has been mining all along. They also built a pipeline across Afghanistan to deliver NG to China, all during the conflict. Grow heroin?pfft How about taking care of American farmers, see John Corzine or Willie Nelson. Increasing the worlds heroin production 20x, is a very bad idea.

Quote:

For example Bill Clinton was pressured to take out Saddam by the Senate during his term as was Bush, but Bush did not want to do it until 9/11 and then he felt obligated to.

I only mentioned Bush because he was POTUS during the timeframe. Also he is still personal friends with the family, and Bandar who has the nickname Bandar "Bush", The head of the secret service in Saud.

Quote:

And the reason OSB family is well received is because they are rich and influential. They have no connections with their son . They have not been in touch with him for many years. But they own well off companies in the middle east, so yes they are good contacts, just because one of their sons went crazy does not mean we should condemn the whole family...

Well finally we are getting around to it. A while ago you were afraid of muslims, it seems if they have influence and are wealthy then they are assets. Yeah, I get that. Like I said before, all wars are banker wars. So if they are poor and have no influence they are potential terrorists that need rectal feeding, and if they are rich and have contacts they are the good guys. Are you sure you don't have some banking job lined up afterward?

IMO, all the poppie farmers put together are not worth one Pat Tillman.

I didn't mention condemning them. If you believe that out of 140 relatives that were flown out the next day while our sky's were closed that none of the family knew anything, well I got a London bridge to sell you. [can email photo's] All I wanted was to question them, not even waterboard.

A friend of mine grew up in SA and was best friends with a prince's kid, the prince had his own personal "beheader", chopped a guys head off right in front of the kids and then ate dinner. There has been more than 60 head removals this year that are reported. Is that also ok in the pecking order of who it is ok that beheads?

Quote:

If you want to see sadistic torture look at Saddams torture chambers... Or any of ISIS camps...

If we wouldn't have went for regime change in Iraq, Saddam who many of our politicians have broken bread with [Rumsfeld, Blair] he would probably be dead from natural causes by now. His sadistic heroin addict rapist kid Uday had already been shot once by an angry citizen, Cusay would either change or get assasinated as well. Again none of this was our business, oil did however leap from 20bbl to over a hundred. Where is most of the Bush's money?

Quote: Gandler

Quote:

What crimes against soldiers have not been prosecuted? The reason you know about them is because of the cases...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

also:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/booming/revisiting-the-militarys-tailhook-scandal-video.html?_r=0

Quote: petroglyph

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

I am not sure what that has to do anything? Even if that absurdly looking conspiratorial site was correct about that incident from the 1960s... But it's conpleltey unrelated to the topic At hand.

Quote: Gandler

But your rant against the military is irrelevant since these allegations are against CIA and other black organizations.

Tillman was killed by accident, there was not some plot to kill him.

What crimes against soldiers have not been prosecuted? The reason you know about them is because of the cases...

The military is just example of the govt that lies.
Tillman was killed by accident. Why lie to his parents. Why not be honest.
The very least the parents of dead soldiers deserve is the truth.
Do you think parents of dead soldiers deserve the truth?
The Govt lied to the parents. Ask Jim Rome, he was at the funeral, he said the military lied right to his face.
They told Jim Rome they got the enemy combatants that killed Tillman. Total BS , knew it at the time it was friendly fire.
Total lies about an American hero.
If they are going to lie about an American hero to his parents, well, they will lie about anything.
You trust the liars. I don't. Lets see the evidence.

So rape is no problem in the military? Its not a war crime, its a crime regardless if we are at war or not. Its rampant in the military.

Like liberals say about the judicial system and the guilty going free, I would rather see 100 confirmed Al Quada members tortured than one American killed.

Quote: EvenBob

That's not the point of Jack Bauer. The point
is, under pressure, when lives are at stake,
you do what you have to do, the rules be
damned. Get it done, worry about the
consequences later.

Like the massacre at My Lai

Quote: Gandler

I am not sure what that has to do anything? Even if that absurdly looking conspiratorial site was correct about that incident from the 1960s... But it's conpleltey unrelated to the topic At hand.

Everything you don't seem to agree with is a conspiracy. Type it in a search engine. You asked for crimes that hadn't been prosecuted.

Don't let facts get in your way much do ya

Quote: petroglyph

Everything you don't seem to agree with is a conspiracy. Type it in a search engine. You asked for crimes that hadn't been prosecuted.

Don't let facts get in your way much do ya

That is about an Isreali attack on a U.S. Ship, even if you are correct how is that relevant to American wrongdoing? If anything it was an Isreali mistake...

Quote: terapined

Like the massacre at My Lai

Not like that at all. Nice try.

It's become a religious war.

Ironically enough though, the west is increasingly secular / atheistic.

Quote: EvenBob

Not like that at all. Nice try.

I know nobody, including you, wants another My Lai.
The point of what I am saying is that when you take the attitude of

Quote: EvenBob

The point
is, under pressure, when lives are at stake,
you do what you have to do, the rules be
damned. Get it done, worry about the
consequences later.

this can be an unfortunate result. That's why we have rules, so My Lai does not happen again.
Power corrupts, absolutely power corrupts absolutely.

People are missing the point. Free people who claim to be part of a just society should live their lives that way and treat everyone with the same rigths and respects and laws as they treat their own. The enemy combatents should have been captured and treated to the same treatment and legal rights as Americans on their home soil.

It doesn't matter what ISIS does, or what other countries do. You are American. You celebrate freedom, offer fair trials, take in refugees, are incredibly charitable. But you have this streak of paranoia about you which makes you believe that it's okay to treat certain people like dogs (worse than dogs) in order to gain tidbits of information, none of which was found to be useful. You have a moral standard to uphold in being American. It doesn't matter what a few muslim extremists do. America's values do not represent theirs, so why go down to their level???

It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well and turn them into informants. Plenty of Germans and Japenese turned during the wars because they were treated well.

It's called leading by example.

Quote: boymimbo

People are missing the point. Free people who claim to be part of a just society should live their lives that way and treat everyone with the same rigths and respects and laws as they treat their own. The enemy combatents should have been captured and treated to the same treatment and legal rights as Americans on their home soil.

It doesn't matter what ISIS does, or what other countries do. You are American. You celebrate freedom, offer fair trials, take in refugees, are incredibly charitable. But you have this streak of paranoia about you which makes you believe that it's okay to treat certain people like dogs (worse than dogs) in order to gain tidbits of information, none of which was found to be useful. You have a moral standard to uphold in being American. It doesn't matter what a few muslim extremists do. America's values do not represent theirs, so why go down to their level???

It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well and turn them into informants. Plenty of Germans and Japenese turned during the wars because they were treated well.

It's called leading by example.

People who are religious fanatics don't turn.

There is a reason people are leaving America and England to join ISIS despite having a far better life.

More British Muslims have joined ISIS than the British Army...

Quote: boymimbo

It doesn't matter what ISIS does... It doesn't matter what a few muslim extremists do...It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well

Quote: Gandler

That is about an Isreali attack on a U.S. Ship, even if you are correct how is that relevant to American wrongdoing? If anything it was an Isreali mistake...

You asked this question and I quote:"What crimes against soldiers have not been prosecuted?"

There are still survivors of the Liberty. They have given statements which are available online should you choose to read them on a source you deem reliable.

I posted two links to answer you query, the other off the top of my head was about "tailhook". You asked, I threw out some leads, do what you wish.

I requested before you not throw the "conspiracy" crap at me. It is a tactic of yours which makes dealing with you pretty hi-maintenance. Right or wrong you seem convinced your opines are correct. Certainly you must realize that there is a lot bigger game going on than the one you are preaching.

Quote: petroglyph

You asked this question and I quote:"What crimes against soldiers have not been prosecuted?"

There are still survivors of the Liberty. They have given statements which are available online should you choose to read them on a source you deem reliable.

I posted two links to answer you query, the other off the top of my head was about "tailhook". You asked, I threw out some leads, do what you wish.

I requested before you not throw the "conspiracy" crap at me. It is a tactic of yours which makes dealing with you pretty hi-maintenance. Right or wrong you seem convinced your opines are correct. Certainly you must realize that there is a lot bigger game going on than the one you are preaching.

I don't, but when a site is called "Whatreallyhappend.com" or something like that, that screams conspiracy. I've agreed with you on many points so I don't way it to everything that you say...

I understand that there is a perception of a bigger game going on and that influences a lot of thoughts. But I don't believe it.

Quote: Gandler

People who are religious fanatics don't turn.

There is a reason people are leaving America and England to join ISIS despite having a far better life.

More British Muslims have joined ISIS than the British Army...

So if you cannot turn them then whats the point of torture. I mean either these people are die hard religious fanatics who cannot and will not break so torture is useless. Or they have the ability and propensity to turn on their beliefs in which case torture is unnecessary. So if that is the case then why are we torturing people seems like we should stop. Really seems like we should stop once you realize how ineffective it was at getting information according to recent senate report.

If one was picked up, but really didn't have much useful information, how would you convince your interrogators you weren't lying? Denials mean more torture for people who also don't know much of anything useful.

Oh, he "claims" he doesn't know anything about that. Keep it going for another week then, and if he still hasn't produced anything useful I guess we can believe him.

Quote: rxwine

If one was picked up, but really didn't have much useful information, how would you convince your interrogators you weren't lying? Denials mean more torture for people who also don't know much of anything useful.

Oh, he "claims" he doesn't know anything about that. Keep it going for another week then, and if he still hasn't produced anything useful I guess we can believe him.

Here's the thing. They often admit they know about a bomb attack coming up. Some do it as a bluff, but some are certainly telling the truth. The reason People know who knows what is because they usually admit that they do but refuse to tell where or when.....

If I was a terrorist, and I was expected to give up other fellow terrorists, I would have a short list of people who had nothing to do with terrorism to turn in first already prepared. If these people are rounded up from the local area, and dumped into the CIA "enhanced interrogation" site, that is a recruiting tool.

For that matter, we could plant some material near homes as "dummy" operations. The occupants don't know the materials are hidden nearby, but me and my captured terrorist buddies turn in the innocents as we give up our valuable info. They have some proven materials and or plans for making bombs, and voila, I have more recruits or sympathizers when these people are rounded up by mistake. And all their relatives, likely become sympathizers, as well..

I mean, it seems like such an operation can be turned to recruiting for the other side with a little effort. I mean, it already is, but it can be made better with some counter tactics.

Quote: terapined

Like the massacre at My Lai

Thankfully, that was a year and a half before my time. I was, however, familiar with the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Look that one up if you really want to turn your stomach.

Quote: rxwine

If I was a terrorist, and I was expected to give up other fellow terrorists, I would have a short list of people who had nothing to do with terrorism to turn in first already prepared. If these people are rounded up from the local area, and dumped into the CIA "enhanced interrogation" site, that is a recruiting tool.

For that matter, we could plant some material near homes as "dummy" operations. The occupants don't know the materials are hidden nearby, but me and my captured terrorist buddies turn in the innocents as we give up our valuable info. They have some proven materials and or plans for making bombs, and voila, I have more recruits or sympathizers when these people are rounded up by mistake. And all their relatives, likely become sympathizers, as well..

I mean, it seems like such an operation can be turned to recruiting for the other side with a little effort. I mean, it already is, but it can be made better with some counter tactics.

That would (maybe) be effective if America just tortured people whimsically, but given that this has occurred only a handful of times and only to well established terrorists, the chance of picking up some random person on a street because somebody dropped their name is very slim.

And unfortunately they are already not hurting for recruits.

What would make wealthy British kids drop out of college and join ISIS? They were not abused nor was their family. They were brainwashed...

People who have the disposition to become brainwashed into becoming mass murdering terrorists don't need geopolitical motives.
As (I don't recall if it was you but somebody) said earlier, Osama, has rich parents, filthy rich parents, who were great friends of the west and everyone, but he ran off to live in desert terrorists camps. He could have been a billionaire living in a castle in Dubai (or anywhere) with multiple wives, but instead he wanted to run around the desert attacking people "Who infringe on the Holy Land" Why would he do this? What material motive could he possibly have? He had one motive and that was a belief that he was spiritually superior to most of the planet.

Quote: MrV

Quote: boymimbo

It doesn't matter what ISIS does... It doesn't matter what a few muslim extremists do...It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well

MrV,

I think you turned what boymimbo said into something he didn't say. The first two fragments above were in reference to the US having a higher standard of treatment of prisoners than those people. At least that's been our sworn commitment, and expectation of our government, since at least WWII. Those other two entities have established their own, much lower standard, which is what he was saying.

The last part was a suggestion of a better way to get results for extracting info than the torture the US resorted to.

I call foul. If you're going to quote, be accurate about it and don't distort the message you're then going to mock or critique.

Thank you.

This was the Dems parting shot before relinquishing control of the Senate.

The CIA lost 16% of their personnel due to Clinton's budget cuts.

Then Clinton and America saw the first World Trade Center bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing. the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. and the the US Cole bombing.

We also saw the Oklahoma City bombing.

Then there was 9/11.

The towers burned for 101 days, incinerating more than 2,000 people.

I breathed that acrid smoke and breathed their ashes for months.

My nephew, who worked in one of the towers managed to duck under an overhang as the first plane hit.

He saw no less than twenty-five people leap from the tower and 'explode like pumpkins' only feet from where he was standing.

Waterboarding. Sleep Deprivation. Inhumane. Traumatizing.

"Wahhh"

Man Up.

Real torture is waking up each day as thousands do, for the rest of your life and dealing with the fact that your daughter, son, wife, husband, mother, father, died horribly in those towers and is never coming home.

Real torture is the thought of what their last moments were like.

If torturing an enemy combatant saves a single life, it is worth it.

If the idea of torturing an enemy combatant is too much for anyone's delicate senses to bear, they can hide in the bushes and shiver like a scared dog for all i care..

Let the strong deal with it.

Former CIA Director Hayden says the policy yielded a 'Home Depot' sized trove of intel.

Current CIA Director Brennan said "Our review indicates that interrogations of detainees on whom EITs were used, did produce intellegence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists and save lives".

Quote: Tanko

This was the Dems parting shot before relinquishing control of the Senate.

The CIA lost 16% of their personnel due to Clinton's budget cuts.

Then Clinton and America saw the first World Trade Center bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing. the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. and the the US Cole bombing.

We also saw the Oklahoma City bombing.

Then there was 9/11.

The towers burned for 101 days, incinerating more than 2,000 people.

I breathed that acrid smoke and breathed their ashes for months.

My nephew, who worked in one of the towers managed to duck under an overhang as the first plane hit.

He saw no less than twenty-five people leap from the tower and 'explode like pumpkins' only feet from where he was standing.

Waterboarding. Sleep Deprivation. Inhumane. Traumatizing.

"Wahhh"

Man Up.

Real torture is waking up each day as thousands do, for the rest of your life and dealing with the fact that your daughter, son, wife, husband, mother, father, died horribly in those towers and is never coming home.

Real torture is the thought of what their last moments were like.

If torturing an enemy combatant saves a single life, it is worth it.

If the idea of torturing an enemy combatant is too much for anyone's delicate senses to bear, they can hide in the bushes and shiver like a scared dog for all i care..

Let the strong deal with it.

Former CIA Director Hayden says the policy yielded a 'Home Depot' sized trove of intel.

Current CIA Director Brennan said "Our review indicates that interrogations of detainees on whom EITs were used, did produce intellegence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists and save lives".

Great post. But the liberals will pick it apart, not for valid reasons but because it was Bush. But on a good note, they seem to have forgotten about how racist the police are for a few days. And they seem to be ignoring the budget talks that have placed far left loons like Warren against more normal Dems who dont think Wall Street is out to get everyone.

Quote: Tanko

This was the Dems parting shot before relinquishing control of the Senate.

The CIA lost 16% of their personnel due to Clinton's budget cuts.

Then Clinton and America saw the first World Trade Center bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing. the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. and the the US Cole bombing.

We also saw the Oklahoma City bombing.

Then there was 9/11.

The towers burned for 101 days, incinerating more than 2,000 people.

I breathed that acrid smoke and breathed their ashes for months.

My nephew, who worked in one of the towers managed to duck under an overhang as the first plane hit.

He saw no less than twenty-five people leap from the tower and 'explode like pumpkins' only feet from where he was standing.

Waterboarding. Sleep Deprivation. Inhumane. Traumatizing.

"Wahhh"

Man Up.

Real torture is waking up each day as thousands do, for the rest of your life and dealing with the fact that your daughter, son, wife, husband, mother, father, died horribly in those towers and is never coming home.

Real torture is the thought of what their last moments were like.

If torturing an enemy combatant saves a single life, it is worth it.

If the idea of torturing an enemy combatant is too much for anyone's delicate senses to bear, they can hide in the bushes and shiver like a scared dog for all i care..

Let the strong deal with it.

Former CIA Director Hayden says the policy yielded a 'Home Depot' sized trove of intel.

Current CIA Director Brennan said "Our review indicates that interrogations of detainees on whom EITs were used, did produce intellegence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists and save lives".

Two things to consider, please.

1. If torture had proven to be an effective route to valid, life-saving information, perhaps the argument has validity. It didn't.

2. What America do you want us to be? Can we take the high road, look ourselves in the mirror, whatever metaphor you prefer, if we lower ourselves to this methodology? I want to be the America that belongs at the top of the list, not the bottom.

As a retired ATC, active during that and the following days, my continued condolences.

I'm against capital punishment because I don't think it's right to kill someone because they killed someone (or multiple people). Lock them up for the rest of eternity for all I care. I just don't think they should be killed. [But then again, I don't know anyone who has been killed by someone else, so maybe I'm slightly on the liberal side on this one.] But that's for capital punishment.


As for torture -- it depends.

In my opinion, torture is wrong if it's retaliation or punishment (and obviously for the torturer's satisfaction) -- same principle as above regarding capital punishment.


BUT, if it's used on people who have information which we would need in order to save lives (ie: terrorist who knows about an upcoming attack....or has any information that he has).....then torture is justified. I view it similar to self-defense: If someone is coming at me with a knife or a gun, with intent to kill me, I can pull out my gun or knife and kill the person and it is justified. If someone has someone at knife/gun-point and are threatening to kill that person, I can justifiably shoot that person. Actually, I believe it would be wrong to NOT shoot the person (assuming I can get a good shot, won't hit other people, yada yada yaa).

In the same way, torturing terrorists to get information would save lives. Not trying to get that information would be wrong.



Torture vs trial:

A trial is used to figure out if someone is guilty or not -- and if they are, what their punishment would be. Torture is not punishment. Torture is getting information from that person. Sure, have a trial if you want to punish the person -- but you're not getting information out of the person because you had a trial.


Let's say there's some psycho kid in high school and he threatens he's going to burn the school down, or have someone he knows burn down the school (or burn down another school or building). You can have a trial and figure out if he's guilty or not and what his punishment should be for threats of burning down the school. But even if he is found guilty, you don't know who is going to burn down which school or building nor when. If you can get the information he has (who burns what when), great. But he might rather go to prison than give up his information on his buddy. [I'm not saying torture the kid.]

If you're going to figure out the information this high school kid has, you can ask other kids at the school, teachers and parents, look at text messages and emails, look at his friends, any websites he's visited, etc. Easy enough.

How are you going to do that with terrorists? Just go around, asking members of ISIS, their family members, or others on the street, "Hey, do you know anything about ISIS? Like if they have any plans to do anything soon? Who their leader(s) is/are?" Now can you look up their emails and text messages [well, maybe...but....].



The point of a trial is to seek guilt and punishment.

The point of torture is to seek information and prevent deaths.




I particularly don't like the comment like, "the information they found wasn't useful/helpful" in defense of why they shouldn't have been tortured. In other words, "they shouldn't have been tortured because the information retrieved wasn't valuable".

To me, that seems very similar to gambler's logic / fallacies they believe in. You're at a blackjack table, you're at third base and hit your hand. You take the "dealer's bust card". Their logic: "You shouldn't have hit because you took the dealer's bust card." But really, you hit the hand because it has the highest EV. On the other hand, if you had stayed on the hand, and the dealer busted then you "did the right thing because the dealer busted".

Doing the right thing is not and cannot be determined through hindsight.


What if they had gained a whole bunch of valuable information and had saved many lives through torturing the terrorists? They could not have known how much (if any) valuable information would have been acquired through torture. But what they can figure out (maybe not definitively) is how much valuable information can they EXPECT. If they expected zero information, then the torture was wrong. If they expected to get enough information, then the torture was justified. I suspect that they expected to get some/enough valuable information to make it justifiable. Unfortunately, the actual information they got wasn't as much as they were expecting. Negative variance, if you will.

Quote: RS

I particularly don't like the comment like, "the information they found wasn't useful/helpful" in defense of why they shouldn't have been tortured. In other words, "they shouldn't have been tortured because the information retrieved wasn't valuable".

To me, that seems very similar to gambler's logic / fallacies they believe in. You're at a blackjack table, you're at third base and hit your hand. You take the "dealer's bust card". Their logic: "You shouldn't have hit because you took the dealer's bust card." But really, you hit the hand because it has the highest EV. On the other hand, if you had stayed on the hand, and the dealer busted then you "did the right thing because the dealer busted".

Doing the right thing is not and cannot be determined through hindsight.


What if they had gained a whole bunch of valuable information and had saved many lives through torturing the terrorists? They could not have known how much (if any) valuable information would have been acquired through torture. But what they can figure out (maybe not definitively) is how much valuable information can they EXPECT. If they expected zero information, then the torture was wrong. If they expected to get enough information, then the torture was justified. I suspect that they expected to get some/enough valuable information to make it justifiable. Unfortunately, the actual information they got wasn't as much as they were expecting. Negative variance, if you will.

Show Spoiler

And please don't respond with stuff like, "You can't relate gambling and torture", or "So you want to torture a high school kid that threatens to burn down the school?" or other such non-arguments.

The issue is the expected information is and should have been considered to be near worthless. Torture is just not a reliable means of getting information. I mean say I'm being tortured and you're looking for the location of a bomb. I believe in my cause and I want the bomb to go off so I give false information to get the torture to stop and you spend time tracking down a false lead. I mean if all I have to give is "something" to get the torture to stop I can give false info until the plan succeeds. Now instead say you keep torturing me after I give actual true information since you have no way of knowing whether I'm lying or telling the truth well now I'm signficantly less inclined to give any sort of information because I still get tortured and my plan doesn't succeed so its a lose lose for me to say anything. Torture is ineffective at getting information and it basically has been every time it is used. I mean just look at when police interrogations were less controlled people admitted to crimes they couldn't have committed just to get it to stop and that level wasn't anywhere near what the CIA did to some people but magically it is now supposed to produce real information. There is a reason police protocol now put restrictions on what you can do to get testimony.

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I call foul. If you're going to quote, be accurate about it and don't distort the message you're then going to mock or critique.

You misunderstand.

I did not take his comments out of context.

I snipped the quote in the interests of brevity, not to twist.

Whatever, the notion that "It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well" is short-sighted and naive, in my opinion.

Turn them into informants?

Really?

"What happened here was that we asked the agency to go take steps and put in place programs that were designed to catch the bastards who killed 3,000 of us on 9/11 and make sure it never happened again, and that's exactly what they did. --- Dick Cheney

Quote: MrV

You misunderstand.

Whatever, the notion that "It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well" is short-sighted and naive, in my opinion.

Turn them into informants?

Really?

"What happened here was that we asked the agency to go take steps and put in place programs that were designed to catch the bastards who killed 3,000 of us on 9/11 and make sure it never happened again, and that's exactly what they did. --- Dick Cheney

It suggests that there is room to reason or even coerce people who are religious extremists. People who join ISIS do NOT care about money, their own well being, their health. There is a reason they get put in more "pain" when you decimate a Koran in from of them than well they are physically abused. They feel that their purpose is to be a dedicated servant to their god.

The idea that they could be turned into informants is beyond naïve, its borderline dangerous and it far underestimates the danger.

They don't care about being treated well. Many of them leave filthy rich families and drop out of college and run off to join terrorist groups (like Osama). What could you possibly bribe him with that his parents couldn't have offered him, but still gave up? They care about their interpretation of the Koran, nothing else, they don't want money, they don't want luxury, they don't want to be treated polite.

Quote: Gandler

It suggests that there is room to reason or even coerce people who are religious extremists. People who join ISIS do NOT care about money, their own well being, their health. There is a reason they get put in more "pain" when you decimate a Koran in from of them than well they are physically abused. They feel that their purpose is to be a dedicated servant to their god.

The idea that they could be turned into informants is beyond naïve, its borderline dangerous and it far underestimates the danger.

They don't care about being treated well. Many of them leave filthy rich families and drop out of college and run off to join terrorist groups (like Osama). What could you possibly bribe him with that his parents couldn't have offered him, but still gave up? They care about their interpretation of the Koran, nothing else, they don't want money, they don't want luxury, they don't want to be treated polite.

So again if you believe all of these things to be true and you say that these people cannot possibly be turned and violence and deprivation do nothing against them then why torture them. I mean according to what you say it will not generate any sort of useful information so it seems the only reason to do it is and I want to stress anything done is vengeance not justice and there is a substantial difference.

Also again you are being very naive in thinking that torture will work and it is the only possible thing that will work did you even take a cursory glance at the Senate report specifically

The chart also says that of the 12, nine were subjected to harsh interrogation techniques. The committee says that according to CIA records five of the nine provided information prior to the enhanced interrogation.

"Of the remaining four detainees who did not provide information on Abu Ahmad al-Kuwaiti until after being subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, three were not substantially questioned on any topic prior to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques," the committee writes. "All three provided information the CIA assessed to be fabricated and intentionally misleading."


So 5 people gave true information that we didn't even bother checking before torturing them and of the 4 who were tortured to get information 3 were not even asked without being tortured and those 3 made up bullcrap. So lets see 5/5 pretorture and lets be generous and say 1/4 post torture. I know I'd prefer the more effective method that didn't make us lose our humanity and turn us into monsters but I guess that doesn't help at all fulfill a Jack Bauer 24 fantasy so why would we do that. Oh also as an aside that show is just in general a crappy show with a crappy premise.

Quote: Twirdman

So again if you believe all of these things to be true and you say that these people cannot possibly be turned and violence and deprivation do nothing against them then why torture them. I mean according to what you say it will not generate any sort of useful information so it seems the only reason to do it is and I want to stress anything done is vengeance not justice and there is a substantial difference.

They can't be turned by us. The best way to turn a true believer (and I have heard this by both former Islam extremsists, as well as what I would consider Christian extremists) is they have to have a self-revelation at how silly their ways are, if somebody tries to interfere with them they will view you as a "misleading Devil" and it does not matter how nice or mean you are, they will not trust any outside information.

My View is that the best way to make people see past religious extremism is allow them to educate themselves without knowing it. (IE put science books in their town, internet accsess, etc...)

But as I have mentioned before, the most effective torture does not involve any physical abuse at all. Its pure mentalism. And I would not even consider this torture. Sleep deprive somebody so they start to lose their brain functionality, and then start desecrating the Koran and showing them cartoons of Muhammad. That will cause far more distress then any physical action would, and would make religious fanatics crack. And nobody could make a humans right issue out of it....

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Also again you are being very naive in thinking that torture will work and it is the only possible thing that will work did you even take a cursory glance at the Senate report specifically

The chart also says that of the 12, nine were subjected to harsh interrogation techniques. The committee says that according to CIA records five of the nine provided information prior to the enhanced interrogation.

5/12 produced some positive information. 12 known terrorists, these were known killers, people who go around the world causing hate and destruction. I do not even feel slightly bad about 12 terrorist being made a bit uncomfortable for the purpose of saving lives. Even if it saved one life on either side it was worth it in my view.

Quote:

So 5 people gave true information that we didn't even bother checking before torturing them and of the 4 who were tortured to get information 3 were not even asked without being tortured and those 3 made up bullcrap. So lets see 5/5 pretorture and lets be generous and say 1/4 post torture. I know I'd prefer the more effective method that didn't make us lose our humanity and turn us into monsters but I guess that doesn't help at all fulfill a Jack Bauer 24 fantasy so why would we do that. Oh also as an aside that show is just in general a crappy show with a crappy premise.

Never saw that show, don't watch TV. But I still stand by what I said. By that logic I could find a crappy movie that preaches non-interventionism and say "look how bad this movie is, your point is wrong".

Geneva Conventions and Human Rights International Law keeps getting brought up by your side. But only for America, nobody seems concerned if anyone else violated the law. But we are expected to religiously follow it. If somebody breaks the Geneva conventions, and international human rights law, not just once, but literally everyday, should we be obligated to bend over backwards to accommodate them? I don't think so, and I don't feel bad saying that. Comparing waterboarding and sleep deprivation to the things these people did before they were captured is laughable.

Lots of riveting podcasts on Sibel Edmonds [operation Gladio] this one on Russ Tice, NSA whisleblower,

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/

Sibel was the most censored person in America, she a FBI whistleblower herself.

Quote: Gandler

5/12 produced some positive information. 12 known terrorists, these were known killers, people who go around the world causing hate and destruction. I do not even feel slightly bad about 12 terrorist being made a bit uncomfortable for the purpose of saving lives. Even if it saved one life on either side it was worth it in my view.



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The whole quote says 5/12 provided useful information before enhanced interrogation began so unless you believe that torture somehow violates causality and works backwards in time I don't think those 5 are a ringing endorsement of torture especially since many clammed up after torture started.

Also the comment about the show had nothing to do with torture being ineffective that had to deal with more people provided valuable information before being tortured then after.

I believe I had previously heard some FBI guys say actionable intelligence was gained under normal methods before the CIA showed up. (way back when, when this was in the news before)

Regular interrogation in these situations is actually fairly enhanced already. Nobody goes home after 24 hrs; nobody has a lawyer, like you would in a normal criminal case.

The current CIA director said today, that normal methods of interrogation may have worked just as well in these cases, but there is no way to know, since you can't turn back time and try the other way.

eidt - I believe they do get lawyers like at Gitmo, but that's well after the initial period of containment.

Quote: rxwine

I believe I had previously heard some FBI guys say actionable intelligence was gained under normal methods before the CIA showed up. (way back when, when this was in the news before)

Regular interrogation in these situations is actually fairly enhanced already. Nobody goes home after 24 hrs; nobody has a lawyer, like you would in a normal criminal case.

The current CIA director said today, that normal methods of interrogation may have worked just as well in these cases, but there is no way to know, since you can't turn back time and try the other way.

eidt - I believe they do get lawyers like at Gitmo, but that's well after the initial period of containment.

But these are not like normal criminal cases. Nor should they be, they are prisoners of war or key targets. People who are not Americans citizens or even members of a state should not have the same rights during capture.

But the FBI may be in Guantomo, but they are not outside National Borders (for the most part, I'm sure you can find some exceptions), but that is The CIA's territories.

Quote: Gandler

But these are not like normal criminal cases. Nor should they be, they are prisoners of war or key targets. People who are not Americans citizens or even members of a state should not have the same rights during capture.

But the FBI may be in Guantomo, but they are not outside National Borders (for the most part, I'm sure you can find some exceptions), but that is The CIA's territories.

You haven't said why we should torture these people if you can get actionable intelligence without the use of torture. The CIA report seems to indicate in these cases torture worked less well then traditional interrogation so what reason is there to torture other then a visceral animalistic desire for vengeance.

Quote: Twirdman

You haven't said why we should torture these people if you can get actionable intelligence without the use of torture. The CIA report seems to indicate in these cases torture worked less well then traditional interrogation so what reason is there to torture other then a visceral animalistic desire for vengeance.

I strongly doubt it was a case of animistic vengeance. To get into the CIA let alone as a high level field agent you have to go through so many psychological tests and emotion tests. There is a reason so many seem so mechanical when you talk to them. I doubt they get any pleasure from waterboarding somebody, its probably just another task of the day like entering files into a computer.

But we don't know all of the details. We know in some cases they do work (and have worked, such as the attack that was prevented by the UK). But my opinion is if there is even a slight chance of it working it is worth it if other options are exhausted. I feel no sympathy for people who have killed countless people while planning to kill countless more, and not in pleasant ways. I can't feel sorry for somebody having water dumped on them or forced to stay awake for a few hours, when if the situation is reversed, they would be chopping the captive into pieces, except often purely for resolve not for information.

I find it sadly ironic that so much time is being debated about this handful of times this was used in the last decade (which I don't even view as an issue, its a plausible option in an already limited toolbox). When the people this is used on often kill more people a day then America has waterboarded in the last two decades... Its just politics, look at who opened the case. People want to make America look like the villian, and its an easy task when so many people in America love to jump on board.