Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:02:10 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

We didn't, we (well not America, but the international community) arrested people for murder and genocide on the basis of race, religion, and handicaps. That is not even equitable to forcing somebody to stay awake for 15 hours to learn where an arms bunker is....




No, but it happens all of the time. Also, torturing Americans would not save lives.



OK but what about the people the US has arrested for waterboarding including US soldiers in Vietnam. Did waterboarding suddenly magically become OK during the last 40 years?
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:04:10 PM permalink
Torturing innocent muslims was the greatest recruiting tool Al Queda had.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:21:27 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Torturing innocent muslims was the greatest recruiting tool Al Queda had.



That must be why ISIS is doing it so much, and their recruitment is through the roof. They are killing and torturing far more Muslims than all of the Western countries combined (and usually for no reason, other than they are not the right kind of Muslim or have conflicted political interests), but for some reasons people love to bring up 3 (justified in my view) incidents America performed years ago, and yet is totally non-concerned about the largest toruterer of Muslims. But Americans performing self-hatred seems to be the cool thing to do now.

Quote: Twirdman

OK but what about the people the US has arrested for waterboarding including US soldiers in Vietnam. Did waterboarding suddenly magically become OK during the last 40 years?



I honestly don't know details of the Vietnam situation. But my view is this : waterboarding as punishment is bad and should be legally punished. But as an information gathering tool, it is acceptable at the discretion of the Presidents command if he deems it right and urgent. This is not a common thing. Under Bush, he only ordered the intense interrogation of 3 people, all of them were high ranking well established terrorists, America does not go around torturing every Muslim who may be a terrorists like others here have alluded to. Only if they are high ranking officials who claim (which they often do) to know about a big attack coming to America or an ally.

Obviously anyone (and this should go without saying, but I'll clarify before somebody uses it as a criticism of me), who tortures without proper approval and orders should be harshly legally punished and certainly removed from the CIA or whatever Black Ops thing he is in. In America, anyone who mistreats a prisoner, even unauthorized photographs (as had happened at Abu Graihb) is harshly punished. I bring that up (since somebody inevitably will), yes you can point to rogue people who acted sadistically, but they were discovered and harshly punished.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
terapined
terapined
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:29:33 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

That is not even equitable to forcing somebody to stay awake for 15 hours to learn where an arms bunker is....
.



15 hours??????
Did you read the report, I did. Cant believe how much was redacted.
How about 102 hours. Its in the report. Its inhumane. Victims name is Abu Ja' al-Iraqi. Page 4 of the Summary section.
I didn't see just 15 hours. Which page was this on? Name of Victim?
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:40:46 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

15 hours??????
Did you read the report, I did. Cant believe how much was redacted.
How about 102 hours. Its in the report. Its inhumane. Victims name is Abu Ja' al-Iraqi. Page 4 of the Summary section.
I didn't see just 15 hours. Which page was this on? Name of Victim?



I was speaking to make a philosophical point not to address that specific case.

Heck lets even round up, lets say 200 hours. Is keeping somebody awake for 200 hours because he refuses to give the location of enemy locations, equiviliant to the genocide of 10 million (round down) people on the basis of religion, political affiliation, ethnic group, handicaps, etc.?

The inmate is there by choice (actions he took again allies of America), and can sleep as soon as he gives the specified location. In death camps and firing squad parties, there is no choice you get killed based on the orders of Hitler purely for who you are, nothing to do with action.

That seems like it will be a hard equivallancy to make...
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:49:28 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Quote:

That must be why ISIS is doing it so much, and their recruitment is through the roof. They are killing and torturing far more Muslims than all of the Western countries combined (and usually for no reason, other than they are not the right kind of Muslim or have conflicted political interests), but for some reasons people love to bring up 3 (justified in my view) incidents America performed years ago, and yet is totally non-concerned about the largest toruterer of Muslims. But Americans performing self-hatred seems to be the cool thing to do now.

How much kool-aid did you drink anyway?

"They are killing far more", that's hysterical. If you think hating Americans "is cool" it's time to see your co and get some help.

Don't you know who is funding isis?

Is torturing these prisoners that were turned in for the bounty and sent to gitmo although guilty of nothing what you consider following standards that you would like to have enacted by the national police that you keep lauding about?

You keep moving the goalposts.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 4:59:49 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

How much kool-aid did you drink anyway?

"They are killing far more", that's hysterical. If you think hating Americans "is cool" it's time to see your co and get some help.

Don't you know who is funding isis?

Is torturing these prisoners that were turned in for the bounty and sent to gitmo although guilty of nothing what you consider following standards that you would like to have enacted by the national police that you keep lauding about?

You keep moving the goalposts.



Its not hysterical its a matter of sheer fact. I know for a fact ISIS killed far more than 3 people... And yea, critzing America seems to be the popular thing for all media figures around the world. And even on local levels, look at all the crazy protesters currently trying to start a race war based on lies...

A lot of people are funding ISIS directly or indirectly due to unfortunate geopolitical realities. But I'm not sure how that is relevant. They control a lot of land and oil (perhaps that's a great reason for removing them from power).

If I have stock in Phillip Morris, am I responsible if somebody gets lung cancer?
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
terapined
terapined
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December 9th, 2014 at 5:01:55 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I was speaking to make a philosophical point not to address that specific case.

...


Here are the inhumane details on Abu Ja' al-Iraqi
Shackled in the standing position for 54 hours.
Swelling in the lower legs, they give him blood thinner, bandaged his legs, let him sit till the 72 hour mark.
Swelling went down, shackled standing up to the 102 hour mark.
How do they keep him awake, nudity and abdominal slaps.
Pretty disgusting.
A lot were subject to rectal feeding. I didn't even know this disgusting act was possible.

But hey, if its good enough for our prisoners, its good enough for our boys overseas.
What comes around goes around.
All torturers need to be in prison, especially if they torture American soldiers. Lets keep the high moral ground so we can go after those basterds.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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December 9th, 2014 at 5:03:22 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

We didn't, we (well not America, but the international community) arrested people for murder and genocide on the basis of race, religion, and handicaps. That is not even equitable to forcing somebody to stay awake for 15 hours to learn where an arms bunker is....




No, but it happens all of the time. Also, torturing Americans would not save lives.



If you believe america torturing "terrorists" will save lives, is it really hard to fathom that these "terrorists" believe that torturing america soldiers will help save lives? Afterall were the terrorists in their eyes.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 5:09:51 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Here are the inhumane details on Abu Ja' al-Iraqi
Shackled in the standing position for 54 hours.
Swelling in the lower legs, they give him blood thinner, bandaged his legs, let him sit till the 72 hour mark.
Swelling went down, shackled standing up to the 102 hour mark.
How do they keep him awake, nudity and abdominal slaps.
Pretty disgusting.
A lot were subject to rectal feeding. I didn't even know this disgusting act was possible.

But hey, if its good enough for our prisoners, its good enough for our boys overseas.
What comes around goes around.
All torturers need to be in prison, especially if they torture American soldiers. Lets keep the high moral ground so we can go after those basterds.



If I was holding information that would save civilian lives, I would be perfectly fine with that happening to me.

Not to mention Al Queda is already doing far worse thing to soldiers and reporters oversees, so that is not a relevant point, I have no doubt they will continue even if all of our prisoners lived in a castle and lived in luxury... So I the threat of Al Queda possibly engaging in sleep deprivation is a mute point, I wish they would, it would be a break from what they currently do.

And yes rectal feeding is possible. It is used when a prisoner does a hunger strike and oral access is not possible (its not a military thing, it happens in civilian prisons too... its a method of forced feeding to prevent self starvation).

Again if a order was wrongly issued, I trust that it will be investigated and properly enforced if there was wrong doing.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine

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