petroglyph
petroglyph
Joined: Jan 3, 2013
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December 9th, 2014 at 1:55:36 PM permalink
Should evidence of torture have been made public?

Is our country safer after keeping Guantanamo open opposite of what Obama promised in his original campaign?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-09/president-obama-praises-patriotic-torturers-says-usa-greatest-force-human-dignity-wo
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 9th, 2014 at 1:59:01 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Should evidence of torture have been made public?

Is our country safer after keeping Guantanamo open opposite of what Obama promised in his original campaign?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-09/president-obama-praises-patriotic-torturers-says-usa-greatest-force-human-dignity-wo



Torture runs both ways.
If we torture our prisoners, we lose our high moral ground.
Therefore American prisoners and American Citizens will be tortured with no repercusions.
We torture them, they will torture us.
I am against torture because I dont want to see our captured American soldiers tortured.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Zuga
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Zuga
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December 9th, 2014 at 2:23:40 PM permalink
Torture is a war crime, and crime against humanity and is strictly forbidden by Geneva and UN conventions.

All details about the torture should be made public and those responsible ( not just the "muscle" but those that ordered it ) should be tried for their crimes.
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing "
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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December 9th, 2014 at 2:50:20 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Should evidence of torture have been made public?

Is our country safer after keeping Guantanamo open opposite of what Obama promised in his original campaign?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-09/president-obama-praises-patriotic-torturers-says-usa-greatest-force-human-dignity-wo



Obama kept the holding facilities there for a reason, once he got in he knows things that we can only speculate on, its easy to hate things before you get elected and are in a position to need them.

As for being made public? After the safe determined number of years, as is common with most classified incidents, but there is no reason to be treated differently.

Quote: Zuga

Torture is a war crime, and crime against humanity and is strictly forbidden by Geneva and UN conventions.

All details about the torture should be made public and those responsible ( not just the "muscle" but those that ordered it ) should be tried for their crimes.



Making people uncomfortable saves a lot of lives, most of what America does is waterboading, Sleep deprivation, pig blood exposure (for Muslim fanatic obviously, nobody else would be offended), female exposure (again to make religious people uncomfortable). None of these things cause permanent damage, but not doing them can.

If either of you will tell me neither of you would ever be willing to make somebody uncomfortable, you are lying through your teeth. If somebody kidnapped your wife and buried her and it was a matter of time until she died, I would bet you would be willing to do anything to retrieve that information, if you knew who had her.

My general view is, as an information source, Enhanced interrogation is morally acceptable and works. However, it should NEVER be allowed as a punishment, only as a source of information and only in Emergant circumstances. Obviously whoever orders it should take full responsibility for the outcome.

By this logic the U.N. forces should be storming into ISIS, but I don't see any calls from anyone here for the U.N. to take aggressive action against their far more frequent and hideous crimes?
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
Zuga
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Zuga
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December 9th, 2014 at 3:23:56 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler



Making people uncomfortable saves a lot of lives, most of what America does is waterboading, Sleep deprivation, pig blood exposure (for Muslim fanatic obviously, nobody else would be offended), female exposure (again to make religious people uncomfortable). None of these things cause permanent damage, but not doing them can.



you are kidding right?
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing "
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 3:30:05 PM permalink
Quote: Zuga

you are kidding right?


No. Without a doubt it can (and has) save lives. And none of the above techniques if done properly, causes permanent damage.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
terapined
terapined
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December 9th, 2014 at 3:47:40 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

No. Without a doubt it can (and has) save lives. And none of the above techniques if done properly, causes permanent damage.



Nazis and Japanesse torturers during World War 2 totally agree with you.
Why did we jail these people for War Crimes?
Time for blanket pardons?

Is it alright to torture American soldiers?
If we capture somebody that has tortured an American Soldier , do we let him go? Hey, according to you the that person that tortured an American saved lives.

Torture is a 2 way street.
It needs to be a one way street.
I want to have the high moral ground so we can go after anybody that tortures an American.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 9th, 2014 at 3:49:33 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

No. Without a doubt it can (and has) save lives. And none of the above techniques if done properly, causes permanent damage.



Neglecting for a moment the serious physical damage that can occur you are basically arguing that psychological harm isn't a form of harm and that is both calloused and foolish. Lets go to the extreme say I want information out of you and know you deeply love your family I could threaten to kill your family and then slowly do it if you didn't' comply and I caused no permanent harm against you since there is nothing physical about what I did. All of the things done can and sometimes do have lasting psychological effects. Also their efficacy is highly questionable you are dealing with religious fanatics who would die for their cause and think they are on a mission from God and in effect success means eternal paradise and failure could mean damnation but obviously they don't care enough to undergo torture and lets be real here it is torture waterboarding has been defined as torture for decades and the US court martialled two soldiers who did it in Vietnam.

Oh and here are your descriptions of no permanent harm
. 'Some victims were still traumatized years later', he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. 'The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience'
Gandler
Gandler
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December 9th, 2014 at 3:55:42 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Nazis and Japanesse torturers during World War 2 totally agree with you.
Why did we jail these people for War Crimes?
Time for blanket pardons?


We didn't, we (well not America, but the international community) arrested people for murder and genocide on the basis of race, religion, and handicaps. That is not even equitable to forcing somebody to stay awake for 15 hours to learn where an arms bunker is....


Quote:

Is it alright to torture American soldiers?
If we capture somebody that has tortured an American Soldier , do we let him go? Hey, according to you the that person that tortured an American saved lives.



No, but it happens all of the time. Also, torturing Americans would not save lives.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine

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