Airline seat recline battles

Ok folks, just had some recline wars in the news recently.
Just About everybody here flies to get to Vegas.
Vegas residents generally fly someplace else for a vacation.

Where does everybody stand on this issue.

Personally, If I see a large adult behind me, I don't recline during the day.
Small person or child, I recline.
I avoid overnight flights but will recline at night.

Poll is set up for multiple votes.

Always ok to recline

Two years ago I started a thread on Seat reclining etiquette. The results were pretty evenly split between recline as far as you want or don't recline at all if someone is behind you.

My personal policy is to recline only an inch or so on a daytime flight if someone is behind me. If the airline is trying to put people to sleep in a Red Eye kind of flight then you can go all the way back. During meal service you shouldn't recline at all.

I fly about 20 times per year and when I'm in coach, I will not recline if there is a larger adult behind me, especially someone who is tall. If the person behind me is smaller I will recline according to their size.

A flight in the overnight hours is a little different story, if the lights are dimmed and the intent is to allow passengers to sleep, I will recline in these situations.

I also defend my space if someone tries to recline into me during a day flight. I won't say anything to them, but I don't feel I need to move my knees if they are moving into space reasonably occupied by me.

Wait, HOLD ON, y'all recline BACKWARDS to go to sleep? How uncomfortable! You're supposed to lean forward and put your head on that folding-"for-food"-thing.



If anyone here is a stewardess: Please be aware that when tall/large people have an aisle seat, their outside knee sometimes tend to hang out into the aisle way, especially if asleep. If that big-ass cart hits us in the knee, IT HURTS. But that's our fault. But please, do not think it's somehow "stuck" and keep trying to ram it past our knee. That is NOT a good way to wake up.

I'm 6'5". I recently found out that Spirit airlines has supposedly removed all the reclining abilities from their seats. I'll gladly pay an extra $25 for a checked bag to not have to deal with some numbskull in front of me repeatedly pounding their chair into my knees, much like RS says about stewards/stewardesses and the beverage cart.

I've even been told I should be forced to purchase two seats (the one I sit in and the one in front of me) the same way overly large people buy 2 (the one they sit it and the one next to them.) She then went on to tell me I had better hope I wasn't behind her in her connecting flight or I'd really be sorry. I kind of wished I had been behind her, just to see what happened!

Quote: terapined

Ok folks, just had some recline wars in the news recently.

In the news is right! The Do’s and Don’ts of Reclining Your Airplane Seat. Wow not one but two flights diverted over this.

IMO, all of the seats should be set at the 1" recline position, which would be fine for take-offs and landings. Then you could have the option to put the seat upright if you wanted. I'm betting most everyone would leave them in the slightly reclined position.

When the airlines took away the row spacing they should have eliminated the recline option. They are treating us more and more like cattle, and then are surprised when we start acting like animals?

By using the knee defender you are taking away the person's right to recline their seat. This right (not really a "right" so to speak) comes from booking passage aboard the airplane. If your seat has the ability to recline, you should have the ability to use the seat as it was made to be used, recline, don't recline. I think if the person attaches a "knee defender" to YOUR seat (yes, you have basically leased the seat for the duration of the flight), you should be able to either (a) remove it from your seat or (b) ask the stewardess to remove it. If this happened to me I would surely write a letter/e-mail to the customer service (and possibly higher-ups) with the airline and demand some sort of satisfaction that I was unable to use my seat as it was made.

Or, fly first class and avoid this whole mess!!

I push against the seat back so it can't recline.
I never recline mine, so I don't want their
seat in my face. Nobody has ever argued about
it. If they did I would whisper in their ear 'I
love you, do you love me?' Man or woman,
makes no difference. I imagine this would
work, who knows.

The only times when it's wrong to recline the seat are take-off and landing.

Any other time you should be able to recline at will, as the seats are intended to do.

Quote: Nareed

The only times when it's wrong to recline the seat are take-off and landing.

Any other time you should be able to recline at will, as the seats are intended to do.

Being "able" to do so is different from "should" you do it. Yes, you can recline the full distance once the say you can, but it is rude to do so and put your head in the face of the person behind you. It is ruder still to stay reclined during meal service. The most polite option involving reclining in today's environment is to go slightly back (an inch maybe) and live with it.

Quote: RonC

Being "able" to do so is different from "should" you do it. Yes, you can recline the full distance once the say you can, but it is rude to do so and put your head in the face of the person behind you. It is ruder still to stay reclined during meal service. The most polite option involving reclining in today's environment is to go slightly back (an inch maybe) and live with it.

I agree 1000% with RonC. This is just more manifestation of the 'me first' thinking that defines many people today. Don't bother to look at how your actions will affect others around you. The only important thing is to make sure you are getting your maximum pleasure, regardless of how others are affected.
And I don't agree that just because the seat reclines, that means you can use it, regardless of how it affects the person behind you. But this is really a failure that belongs to the airlines. It is their failure to allow this potential conflict to exist that is the root cause of the issue.
Full recline should only be allowed when the seat behind you is empty, or, when the person behind you agrees that you can recline.

I fly with my wife several times a year. Always coach unless upgraded by airline.

Two things that I haven't seen addressed either here or on the local radio stations that have allowed people to call in.

1. All this hub-bub has been caused by the airlines cramming in that one extra row of seats. When we used to have an extra couple of inches between rows the recline wasn't really an issue. At the heart of the matter isn't personal etiquette but corporate policy. If you choose to fly in coach on an airline with crammed rows people are going to recline. Everyone knows that going in. Caveat Emptor!

2. Every tall person I've read or heard (over 6'2" generally) has said they jam their knees into the seat in front, push back, ask the person to not recline, etc. etc. Are any of these people reclining THEIR seat? You don't expect me to believe that these folks who can barely fit into the space (their definition) aren't utilizing every possible avenue to make their situation more tolerable. What about the poor sod behind them?

RaleighCraps nailed it. I'm 6'5", have had bi-lateral total knee replacement and the absolute last thing I need is an argument about where my space ends. Talk about insensitive. What the h**l am I supposed to do when I am hips full back, my knees are in contact with the seat forward when it is in the full upright position and the occupant tries to ram it back? And then wants to fight about it. The greatest hypocrisy of all is when that same person is too short to get their bag from the overhead and asks my assistance because I am tall enough to reach it.

Pretty much everything about flying makes it a miserable experience, insensitive passengers are right up there with TSA.

Quote: LowPingBoy

RaleighCraps nailed it. I'm 6'5", have had bi-lateral total knee replacement and the absolute last thing I need is an argument about where my space ends. Talk about insensitive. What the h**l am I supposed to do when I am hips full back, my knees are in contact with the seat forward when it is in the full upright position and the occupant tries to ram it back? And then wants to fight about it. The greatest hypocrisy of all is when that same person is too short to get their bag from the overhead and asks my assistance because I am tall enough to reach it.

Pretty much everything about flying makes it a miserable experience, insensitive passengers are right up there with TSA.

Well, I do what I can by stiff-arming the jerk trying to recline. If they manage it, I make sure I grab hard on their seat to get up and get to the can, then bump them a bunch getting back in. As a last resort, I put my forearms across the top of their seat and lean my head on it and sleep on top of them.

I'm nearly 6ft and not small. I work hard at respecting other people's space, in all directions, but that one is just plain selfish in the sardine can that is coach. And I do think, on a red-eye, after meal service, it's appropriate to recline. Otherwise, no, not in coach anyway. When the person in front of me reclines, my knees are pushed painfully into hard metal, the tray won't come all the way down, and there's no room to hold a book or puzzle in front of me.

I do blame the airlines, primarily. Ridiculous greed, making things uncomfortable. Charge me 10 more each way and put back reasonable spacing in the rows, for God's sake. (That Delta claims you can have econ-plus for $9 is a joke; it's never that little - more like $39 - $69/leg.) And put those bendy-cushions on everybody's seat, so you can sleep sitting up and let your head lean to the side with support.

Quote: Woldus

1. All this hub-bub has been caused by the airlines cramming in that one extra row of seats. When we used to have an extra couple of inches between rows the recline wasn't really an issue. At the heart of the matter isn't personal etiquette but corporate policy. If you choose to fly in coach on an airline with crammed rows people are going to recline. Everyone knows that going in. Caveat Emptor!

That's a fair point. Personally, I pay the extra $20 or whatever for such things as Premium Coach on Jet Blue or preferred boarding on Southwest, to get the first or an exit row. I'd gladly pay extra for any airline that consistently offered more legroom but it seems all the domestic airlines are equally bad.

I'd like to see more airlines offer the Premium Coach option that Jet Blue does, but evidently there isn't the demand in the market.

The night SANDY hit the east coast I had to fly back out west from Windsor... lets just say the flight into Toronto I wished I had a GO PRO recording it from 18000 ft to touch down . Since the whole east coast was shut down Air Canada was flying pilots back on other flights to work west coast flights the next day .... here is my email to Air Canada about that flight...it was on a Embracer 180 which only has two seats each side




> Air Canada or Star Alliance Tier Status: --
>
> Type: Other
>
> --Flight Information--
> Flight Number AC: 7760
> Flight Date: 29/10/2012
> Departure City: Windsor, Ontario (YQG).
> Arrival City: Calgary, Alberta (YYC).
> Ticket Number:
>
> --Passenger Information--
> How many passengers were travelling: 1
>
> Passenger 1:
> Check this box if you are one of the people traveling: X
>
> --Message--
> Subject: DISAPPOINTED AGAIN
> Message: Last night I took AC7760 out of Windsor to Toronto to catch AC141 to Calgary. The pilot on AC7760 did a great job landing the plane in Toronto under the windy conditions and the whole plane was impressed with how softly he touched it down .
>
> Its after this leg of my journey that things took a turn for the worse. ON AC141 I had seat 32 F and the two seats in front of me were taken up by a couple of Air Canada Pilots hitching a ride back to Calgary. After we took off and leveled out the pilot in front of me reclined his seat FULLY for the rest of the flight. As I am a big guy at 6'4" and 280 lbs I had very little extra leg room to begin with and none when he seat was reclined.
> This pilot as an employee of Air Canada never even asked if it would be alright if he reclined his seat limiting my ability to move my legs for the 3 hour 30 minute plus flight. Common courtesy I guess isn't taught at pilot school. Thing is the other pilot got up a few times and looked right at me and must have seen how limited my room was with the other pilot having his seat fully reclined and he never said a thing to him about it. The on board attendants all saw it while serving the drinks ( no way in the world I could have put my tray down to put my drink on ) and yet none of them said a thing to him either.. I guess employees comfort supersedes paying customers. At least I had a 8 year old kid sitting next to me so I had a little extra room for my left leg to move a bit.
>
> Oh it gets better. Upon arrival at Calgary I had to go see the Air Canada staff to report my bag was missing. It never came out. This fella was very polite and checked into it for me in short time. His reply wasn't what I wanted to hear, guess since the flight was full out of Windsor some bags didnt make it due to weight limits. Mine being one of them. That marks the third time in the past couple of years my bag hasn't followed me on my journey. It always does arrive at some point down the road like tonight 16 hours after my flight arrived it showed up at my door. The frozen pizza from Capri Pizza in Windsor ($35) was fully thawed out. Moms 5 dozen perogies sent with me for my brother shared the same fate.
> Thats not a record Air Canada should be happy with since I would guess I have flown 6 or 7 times and about half the time my bag doesnt make it same time as me. delayed baggage claim # YYC AC 70064
>
> Well at least I flew home a day early so I had the time to sit around waiting for the courier to drop my bag off. Not what I had planned on doing when I booked a late Monday night flight home
>
> DISAPPOINTED ONCE AGAIN with Air Canada

www.seatguru.com

What is kind of sad about this is that the airlines now look at stuffing people back in coach as another revenue stream. UA and DL have premium economy at the front of coach with a few more inches. If you have high status frequent flyer, its free but just a regular flier, an extra 30 to 100 bucks on top of your ticket per flight depending on how long the flight is.
British, Virgin and Scandavian now fly with 4 seperate sections on their planes over the pond, 1st, business, premium economy and coach.

I will aggressively knee defend, f.u. recliners, you are taking up more than one allotted space. Once when I was particularly annoyed, I continued to thrust my knees into the seat in front of me in a jabbing manner. No way, that guy was going to sleep straight up or leaning forward, I will not allow jamming your seat back into my knees to be even a semi-comfortable alternative.

Since the airlines provide the reclining seat, but not the space, they should at least outline proper rules of etiquette. Otherwise, it's just rules of Thunderdome!

I didn't realize that they actually had a product called knee defender, that is great. I admit I was overboard and rude in my example above due to extenuating circumstances affecting my mood. Similar to blowing smoke in the face of non smokers, I just generally consider reclining to be rude, maybe very slightly if the person behind you is short, but you are essentially taking away their option of using a laptop on their tray table as well as making them miserably uncomfortable. Is sitting upright really that bad?

What a mess where reclining a chair becomes such a large issue then people have to buy their way out. Nothing ever makes any sense to me because often it's not designed to make sense but to create a reaction. Buses and trains cannot compare to planes and they have less hassles.

Quote: mcallister3200

I will aggressively knee defend, f.u. recliners, you are taking up more than one allotted space. Once when I was particularly annoyed, I continued to thrust my knees into the seat in front of me in a jabbing manner. No way, that guy was going to sleep straight up or leaning forward, I will not allow jamming your seat back into my knees to be even a semi-comfortable alternative.

Why can't you just recline if they recline?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Why can't you just recline if they recline?

One, I don't want to, reclining isn't really much more comfortable in my opinion, and I much prefer to use my tray table than recline, when someone reclines I can't really use the vertical space above tray table(i.e. laptop).

Second, I just would never even consider it in coach due to what you are doing to the person behind you.

Quote: mcallister3200

One, I don't want to, reclining isn't really much more comfortable in my opinion, and I much prefer to use my tray table than recline, when someone reclines I can't really use the vertical space above tray table(i.e. laptop).

Second, I just would never even consider it in coach due to what you are doing to the person behind you.

What he said.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

What a mess where reclining a chair becomes such a large issue then people have to buy their way out. Nothing ever makes any sense to me because often it's not designed to make sense but to create a reaction. Buses and trains cannot compare to planes and they have less hassles.

one of the instances in the news actually took place in premium economy where you are given a few more inches. But then a few more inches only helps a little.
Years ago when I flew, alot flights had empty seats. Once the doors closed, I would scope out the plane looking for 3 emptys to stretch out in. Nowadays, seems every flight I am on is full

What about arm jostling?

Tight seating means unavoidable arm contact with your seatmate.

I fought a silent war for position with the yahoo in the adjoining seat recently.

I never recline and neither does the person
in front of me. I just push against his seat
back so he can't. On Allegiant the seats
don't recline anymore, which is fine with me.

Quote: EvenBob

I never recline and neither does the person
in front of me. I just push against his seat
back so he can't. On Allegiant the seats
don't recline anymore, which is fine with me.

The Evenbob Show must be in syndication now because I swear I saw this yesterday.

Quote: rxwine

Since the airlines provide the reclining seat, but not the space, they should at least outline proper rules of etiquette. Otherwise, it's just rules of Thunderdome!

The rule are clear. You can recline as far as the seat reclines. That's why the seats recline that far.

I really don't understand the opposing arguments. People are not reclining as far as they want, they are reclining as far as the seats are designed to allow them to recline. That is as far as you are allowed to recline. If they did not want you to recline that far, you would not be able to.

I've never had someone kneeing my seat because they did not like the fact that I reclined, but, if I did, I'd just complain to the flight attendant. If he didn't stop I'd expect him to be met with police officers upon landing (failing to comply with a request from a flight attendant is a federal offense)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've never had someone kneeing my seat because they did not like the fact that I reclined, but, if I did, I'd just complain

If I'm doing it, that would be a bad
move. Likes Babs said, my face and
breath would be right next to yours
and you would last about 30 sec before
you retreated. You probably don't
believe it, but I'm not shy.

Again, I just complain to the flight attendant that you're harassing me. You stop or meet with cops at the gate; your choice. Watching someone like that get arrested would be worth any discomfort during the flight. Entertainment value!

You are being harassed when you jam your seat back against someone's knees? Interesting perspective.

"The real problem is undefined property rights over the same four or five inches of space. People don’t agree on who has the rights. The airlines leave it foggy."
"The person who wants it most will end up owning the rights, but the person with the recliner button holds an advantage. The Knee Defender reallocates the rights. Now I can claim the four inches in front of my face."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/upshot/in-defense-of-the-knee-defender.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0
Love it.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Again, I just complain to the flight attendant that you're harassing me.

LOL, you watch too many TV shows. They would
arrest you for causing a disturbance, believe it.

Quote: mcallister3200

You are being harassed when you jam your seat back against someone's knees? Interesting perspective.

Evenbob was talking about leaning forward and sexually harrassing the person leaning back.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Evenbob was talking about leaning forward and sexually harrassing the person leaning back.

What? You have an odd way of interpreting
my post.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Evenbob was talking about leaning forward and sexually harrassing the person leaning back.

Lmao

You don't think that whispering into a stranger's ear that you love them constitutes sexual harassment? Try this at work and let me know how it goes for you.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Well, I do what I can by stiff-arming the jerk trying to recline. If they manage it, I make sure I grab hard on their seat to get up and get to the can, then bump them a bunch getting back in. As a last resort, I put my forearms across the top of their seat and lean my head on it and sleep on top of them.

I'm nearly 6ft and not small. I work hard at respecting other people's space, in all directions, but that one is just plain selfish in the sardine can that is coach. And I do think, on a red-eye, after meal service, it's appropriate to recline. Otherwise, no, not in coach anyway. When the person in front of me reclines, my knees are pushed painfully into hard metal, the tray won't come all the way down, and there's no room to hold a book or puzzle in front of me.

I do blame the airlines, primarily. Ridiculous greed, making things uncomfortable. Charge me 10 more each way and put back reasonable spacing in the rows, for God's sake. (That Delta claims you can have econ-plus for $9 is a joke; it's never that little - more like $39 - $69/leg.) And put those bendy-cushions on everybody's seat, so you can sleep sitting up and let your head lean to the side with support.

Looking at the photo from WoV G2E 2013, if you're 6ft the Wizard and DJTeddyBear must be at least 6' 6".

Why doesn't everyone just recline? Its not like they go back that far.

Quote: 1BB

Looking at the photo from WoV G2E 2013, if you're 6ft the Wizard and DJTeddyBear must be at least 6' 6".

I think that's a matter of posture and Babs leaning to look around the person in front of her. I am 5'10", and she is taller than I am. The Wizard is not 6'6", and I have never met DJ.

Quote: AxelWolf

Why doesn't everyone just recline? Its not like they go back that far.

My thoughts exactly. What is the Big Deal?

There are at least two rows in coach where no one need be bothered by the Big Bad Reclining Seats: the front row up against the bulkhead, because there are no seats in front of it, and the emergency exit row over the wings, where the seats in front don't recline and are farther away than normal; and on an A-320(*) there are two such rows given the two wing exit doors per side.

On an A-320 that's 18 such seats. On most other planes that's twelve.

So plan ahead and pick your seats accordingly.

(*) A-320 includes the A-319 and A-321 variants.

And just exactly how does reclining my seat do anything at all to position my legs and knees away from the seat in front of me? Tilting my upper body rearward does nothing whatsoever to better position my legs/knees relative to the seat in front.

Gee, a whole two rows of seats with additional leg room. Any idea how quickly those are booked up? Plan ahead, like a couple of months or so to have a chance. Not entirely realistic. Furthermore, most domestic flights are 737s and smaller; a whole lot smaller, with maybe about half of that number. Typical 737 is about 150 seats, 12 with some legroom is just 8% of the total. Can you imagine that just maybe more than 8% of the passengers on a given flight may be taller than 6'2"?

The Big Deal is that some passengers may just not fit the cookie cutter profile the airlines use to space out their seats. And that those passengers that want to insist on their "right" to recline are insensitive and uncaring - a lot like drivers cruising in the left lane.

Way too many people just out for themselves and either do not understand or care how their actions may impact others. Pity.

I asked a flight attendant about the etiquette of reclining and she said you are free to recline as much as you wish, except as instructed by the crew.

Still, my position is only go back an inch or so, slowly, if somebody is behind me. If the person is big, I won't go back at all. However, I feel like a chump doing that when the guy in front of me jerks his seat back the whole way into my knees.

Since they have the ability to let a computer program sort things out, you should be able to fill in a request.

1. will you be reclining?
2. do you mind if someone is reclining in front of you?

Then factor that into seat position.

It might sound crazy, but hey, planes are landing over disruptions.

Though another option is to put all reclining seats in a particular section of coach and make the others fixed position. Kind of like the old smoking sections.

There ya go. Since middle seats are usually considered undesireable, make all middle seats reclineable,while the window and aisle seats are fixed. If you want to recline, take a middle seat.

Quote: Wizard

I asked a flight attendant about the etiquette of reclining and she said you are free to recline as much as you wish, except as instructed by the crew.

Yes, exactly. The people making up their own rules and trying to force them on other people are the inconsiderate ones.

If you don't like the person in front of you reclining, then book a seat with extra legroom, or a first class seat, or a seat on an airline where the seats don't recline. But don't book a seat where the person in front of you can recline, and then expect that person to follow arbirtary rules that you made up.