Obamacare
Quote: JBThis "affordable" health care act is forcing me to pay nearly $600 a month for health insurance. Actually that's not entirely true; I could be paying as little as $360 a month for practically no coverage. Meanwhile the retirees living in my area pay $50 a month for what is probably better coverage than what I'll have.
Deductible?
You don't have health insurance. You seem to be okay with not carrying insurance. You've likened health insurance premiums to a tax. You also said that you could be paying as little as $360. Why did you choose voluntarily to tax yourself nearly double?Quote: JBI didn't have health insurance prior to this (and technically still don't until January 1st) as it wasn't mandatory.
But under this new system it's like my taxes have increased $7,000 a year with no basis to warrant the extra taxation.
I'm not thrilled that the elderly in my area who visit doctors once or twice a week only have to pay $600 a year whereas when I go once or twice a year I have to pay $600 a month.
Quote: anonimussDeductible?
The plan I'm going with has a $150 deductible. Here were my so-called choices:
Bronze = $360/month for a $3500 deductible
Silver = $425/month for a $1900 deductible
Gold = $497/month for a $750 deductible
Platinum = $583/month for a $150 deductible
The first two plans (Bronze and Silver) amount to paying for no coverage since anything non-catastrophic would fall well below the deductible, leaving the last two plans as the only real options. Between those two, the Platinum has a lower maximum annual cost, so that was really the only choice. It would be easier to stomach $600 a month plus $150, than $500 a month plus $750.
But I still say it's extortion. I'm being forced to subsidize the 65+ crowd who only pays $50 a month.
Quote: s2dbakerYou've likened health insurance premiums to a tax.
It is involuntary, thus it's effectively a tax.
Quote: s2dbakerYou also said that you could be paying as little as $360. Why did you choose voluntarily to tax yourself nearly double?
I may as well pay the higher premium since it offers some benefit versus paying for no coverage. See Hobson's choice.
Our side wanted Medicare for all but we went with the Heritage Foundation plan to get all of the Republican votes.Quote: JBBut I still say it's extortion. I'm being forced to subsidize the 65+ crowd who only pays $50 a month.
Gold was your best deal if you plan on hitting the maximum on your deductible each year. $497×12+750=$6714
How are the co-pays?
I think that you underestimate the value of the Bronze plan but that's something that only time and experience will help me prove.Quote: JBIt is involuntary, thus it's effectively a tax.
I may as well pay the higher premium since it offers some benefit versus paying for no coverage. See Hobson's choice.
Quote: JB
But I still say it's extortion. I'm being forced to subsidize the 65+ crowd who only pays $50 a month.
Of course it's extortion. Michelle says it's a Xmas
'gift'. Wait till the people who are signing up make
a couple payments and realize they can't afford it
and stop paying. That's going to happen to at least
20% of those who enrolled, experts say. It's not
like quitting paying your light bill, there are no
immediate consequences. It might even be higher
than 20%.
Quote: s2dbakerOur side wanted Medicare for all but we went with the Heritage Foundation plan to get all of the Republican votes.
Gold was your best deal if you plan on hitting the maximum on your deductible each year. $497×12+750=$6714
I can't seem to find it now but they listed the maximum annual cost with everything (not just the premium + deductible) factored in, and Platinum was the clear winner.
It doesn't matter though. It's involuntary and extortionary.
Quote: JBBut I still say it's extortion. I'm being forced to subsidize the 65+ crowd who only pays $50 a month.
At some point you may be 65 where you will be paying 50 and someone like you will be paying 600 to subsidize you.
It doesn't necessarily work out that way, of course.
Quote: EvenBobOf course it's extortion.
It may have taken a few years, but we finally agree on something.
Quote: JB
It doesn't matter though. It's involuntary and extortionary.
$600 a month is a car payment on a top
of the line BMW. It's a mortgage payment
on a nice house. That will dawn on people
sooner rather than later when they start
writing those checks every month.
Quote: EvenBob$600 a month is a car payment on a top
of the line BMW. It's a mortgage payment
on a nice house.
And I'm just an individual. The premiums in my state for couples, single parents, and families range from $694/month to $1670/month.
You had indicated that it was a Hobson's choice. You did have a third option. You could have blissfully continued without health insurance. If you choose to, next year you could have paid the unenforceable fine. Yet you picked the most expensive option. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.Quote: JBIt may have taken a few years, but we finally agree on something.
Quote: JBAnd I'm just an individual. The premiums in my state for couples, single parents, and families range from $694/month to $1670/month.
It will work on people psychologically. They sign
up in good faith, and a few months later realize
they can't afford it and are seeing nothing concrete
for their money. It's not like there's a new car in
the driveway or a new house they're living in.
For $600 a month, you could put the money in
a bank as your health fund, and if you got really
sick, Obamacare can't turn you down. It's a win
win for you. That's why this monstrosity will never
work as written.
Quote: s2dbakerYet you picked the most expensive option. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I concede that the tax penalty may have been the least expensive option, at least for 2014.
Quote: JBThe plan I'm going with has a $150 deductible. Here were my so-called choices:
Bronze = $360/month for a $3500 deductible
Silver = $425/month for a $1900 deductible
Gold = $497/month for a $750 deductible
Platinum = $583/month for a $150 deductible
The first two plans (Bronze and Silver) amount to paying for no coverage since anything non-catastrophic would fall well below the deductible, leaving the last two plans as the only real options. Between those two, the Platinum has a lower maximum annual cost, so that was really the only choice. It would be easier to stomach $600 a month plus $150, than $500 a month plus $750.
But I still say it's extortion. I'm being forced to subsidize the 65+ crowd who only pays $50 a month.
You're also subsidizing low wage earners. Liberal wealth redistribution.
I agree, we should raise the minimum wage.Quote: anonimussYou're also subsidizing low wage earners.
Quote: rxwineMakes no difference. You've been off topic plenty of times arguing with people.
Sure, arguing with them about being off topic. Duh! *facepalm*
Anyway, hope you can control your anger this time around. Take care.
Quote: anonimussYou're also subsidizing low wage earners. Liberal wealth redistribution.
I saw a reporter last night who has interviewed
a bunch of Obamacare Navigators. They told
him that besides sticker shock, the response
they get the most from lower income people
is 'but I thought it was free!'. They hear this
so often that some of them have real smart
ass responses. Gotta love those low information
voters.
Quote: s2dbakerOur side wanted Medicare for all but we went with the Heritage Foundation plan to get all of the Republican votes.
I know our memories fade after time, but there weren't a lot of Republicans who voted for Obamacare. I guess you could say that some Republicans voted for Obama based on his lies about what they would get; not necessarily on where the plan supposedly came from (already discussed and not really accurate as the form changed a lot from the original idea of the Heritage Foundation to the bill that became law).
The ends does justify the means, of course...right? The lies. the hidden taxes, the increased costs, etc. are of no concern to the diehard supporters.
Some reminders of the Republican support for the bill in Congress...
Senate--The bill then passed by a vote of 60–39 on December 24, 2009, with all Democrats and two independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against (except for Jim Bunning, who did not vote).
The House passed the Senate bill with a 219–212 vote on March 21, 2010, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against it.
Quote: EvenBobI saw a reporter last night who has interviewed
a bunch of Obamacare Navigators. They told
him that besides sticker shock, the response
they get the most from lower income people
is 'but I thought it was free!'. They hear this
so often that some of them have real smart
ass responses. Gotta love those low information
voters.
That's exactly what I've said: it isn't free. People that didn't want to pay for health care before this fiasco won't want to pay for it now.
Thus the funny. We could have had Medicare for all if the Democrats weren't such spineless appeasers. But now we're stuck with the conservative Heritage Foundation plan which is still better than what we had before.Quote: RonCSenate--The bill then passed by a vote of 60–39 on December 24, 2009, with all Democrats and two independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against (except for Jim Bunning, who did not vote).
The House passed the Senate bill with a 219–212 vote on March 21, 2010, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against it.
Baby steps.
Quote: s2dbakerThus the funny. We could have had Medicare for all if the Democrats weren't such spineless appeasers. But now we're stuck with the conservative Heritage Foundation plan which is still better than what we had before.
.
You might notice that we ignore most
of your nonsense posts now. You're
just trying to convince yourself how
great it is, we already know. As does
the rest of the country. There's an old
saying that applies to Obamacare. "If
you're going to screw me, at least have
the decency not to lie about it first."
Nobody likes playing the fool, and that's
what Obama did to the country. We'll
see who has the last laugh.
At last we agree on something. Considering your track record of always being wrong, I like my chances.Quote: EvenBobWe'll see who has the last laugh.
Quote: s2dbakerConsidering your track record of always being wrong.
I was wrong about Obama? How so? He's on
track to be the worst president we've ever had.
I saw a foreign affairs expert the other day say
nobody knows what our foreign policy is because
Obama doesn't have one. He either ignores it
all, or makes statements he doesn't follow thru
on. He's a worldwide joke. Obama won, America
lost.
Quote: EvenBobYou might notice that we ignore most
of your nonsense posts now. You're
just trying to convince yourself how
great it is, we already know. As does
the rest of the country. There's an old
saying that applies to Obamacare. "If
you're going to screw me, at least have
the decency not to lie about it first."
Nobody likes playing the fool, and that's
what Obama did to the country. We'll
see who has the last laugh.
Typical liberal, incapable of rational thought. Just a never ending series of "Nyah, nyah, nyah"s after first furrowing the brow then the slow realization of an immense inability to come up with any answer that actually makes sense. I marked him absent long ago.
Second, you electing not to have health insurance is a tax to everyone who does have health insurance. What are your assets worth? Say you ate 76 McNuggets and ended up in the Las Vegas county hospital with acute food poisoning. Your kidneys shut down, and you are in the hospital for 2 weeks and incur a nice bill for about $300K. You're uninsured. You declare bankruptcy and the hospital get paid a few pennies on the dollar because you're uninsured. Who pays for that? Clark County (and its tax payers), the Federal government? And you, because you're now without any assets because you got food poisoning from trying to win some bet.
So yeah, you pay $600 a month for the platinum coverage and you join a pool of millions of Americans paying now for insurance rather than letting the local and state governments foot the bill when their uninsured members show up at the hospital expecting to be taken care of.
And maybe you would have paid a trip to the doctor's office (for a very low amount) who might have told you why you shouldn't try to kill yourself eating McNuggets because your blood pressure was through the roof and you shouldn't be eating so much sodium.
Part of the problem is that there is a whole class of Americans who decided not to have insurance and to literally roll the dice. If they get sick, they can just declare bankruptcy and get the bill "covered".
It's still crappy that you have to pay so much, but that's what happens when you have a middleman taking 30% of the cost and your doctors spending so much on overhead costs to bill the insurance companies properly.
Quote: s2dbakerThus the funny. We could have had Medicare for all if the Democrats weren't such spineless appeasers. But now we're stuck with the conservative Heritage Foundation plan which is still better than what we had before.
Baby steps.
You can say it a thousand times and it will still be a lie--this is not the Heritage Foundation's plan; it is President Obama's.
It is his baby.
You can read more...http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/10/heritage_vs_obamacare.html
Quote: anonimussTypical liberal, incapable of rational thought. Just a never ending series of "Nyah, nyah, nyah"s after first furrowing the brow then the slow realization of an immense inability to come up with any answer that actually makes sense. I marked him absent long ago.
S2 is just because he thought Obamacare would save him money but it is costing him more than before so he keeps making these statements.
Could you elaborate? I think there's words missing and since you speak for me, I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to just .. somethingQuote: AZDuffmanS2 is just because he thought Obamacare would save him money but it is costing him more than before so he keeps making these statements.
Quote: RonCYou can say it a thousand times and it will still be a lie--this is not the Heritage Foundation's plan; it is President Obama's.
It is his baby.
You can read more...http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/10/heritage_vs_obamacare.html
I actually went back to the original Heritage Foundation document and on page 6, there's the mandate in all its glory.
Quote: s2dbakerCould you elaborate? I think there's words missing and since you speak for me, I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to just .. something
I actually went back to the original Heritage Foundation document and on page 6, there's the mandate in all its glory.
Did you read the part where it said that it did not necessarily reflect the views of the Heritage Foundation?
They seem to put that disclaimer on all of their studies, even the ones with their name baked right into the title. The Heritage Consumer Choice Health Plan. (That one has the mandate too)Quote: RonCDid you read the part where it said that it did not necessarily reflect the views of the Heritage Foundation?
Quote: s2dbakerThey seem to put that disclaimer on all of their studies, even the ones with their name baked right into the title. The Heritage Consumer Choice Health Plan. (That one has the mandate too)
Good, now you can stop with all the s2pid comments about them.
Quote: s2dbakerThey seem to put that disclaimer on all of their studies, even the ones with their name baked right into the title. The Heritage Consumer Choice Health Plan. (That one has the mandate too)
Ask yourself if conservatives found a White House document with inflammatory material and a disclaimer at the bottom if they wouldn't be going on about it 24/7 365 anyway?
That's all the proof we need.
Quote: RonC
Did you read the part where it said that it did not necessarily reflect the views of the Heritage Foundation?
It makes S2D feel better about this travesty
being somebody elses fault. Libs always need
somebody to blame, you know that. Let him
think what he wants, we know who's plan
this is. He says it to get a reaction, that's what
trolls do.
just wait, you will love Obamacare, wait
and see. When asked what exactly we'll
love, they have no answer. It's just like
your parents telling you what fun it was going
to be getting your tonsils taken out when you
were 8. We didn't buy that lie either.
If you think that Obamacare wouldn't have become law under a Republican administration then you are just deluding yourself. Obamacare is a product of the conservative Heritage Foundation as I have proven with links back to their own documents (should you care to read them). The Heritage Foundation can try to deny Obamacare now but the Internet's memory is eternal.Quote: boymimboObama was proud that it was his plan and stated as such on the record several times during the 2012 debates. He is responsible for this plan, has stated so, and is the architect. So, as much as s2dbaker wants to call it a Heritage Foundation plan, this is Obama's baby, something that will stand out in history if it is not obliterated by the next federal government, not unlike the blunderous Iraqi war that the previous administration rammed through.
Obama got it signed but Harry Reid got it done in the Senate and Nancy Pelosi got it done in the House. It's an achievement for which they all can rightfully be proud. America wins again.
Quote: s2dbakerObamacare is a product of the conservative Heritage Foundation .
LOL!
Quote: anonimussThe problem is, there are still a lot of low information voters.
Yep, 65 million of them. (That's how many voted for Obama)
Anyway, this gave me a good LOL about Obamacare: States retaliate against ObamaCare website developers, halt payments
Quote: Beethoven9th
Anyway, this gave me a good LOL about Obamacare: States retaliate against ObamaCare website developers, halt payments
And consider this, not a single person has used Obamacare
yet. Nobody has visited a doctor, no doctor has sent in a bill.
Most people don't even know if their doctor is included in
their network. The fun, as they say, hasn't even started yet.
Quote: s2dbakerIf you think that Obamacare wouldn't have become law under a Republican administration then you are just deluding yourself. Obamacare is a product of the conservative Heritage Foundation as I have proven with links back to their own documents (should you care to read them). The Heritage Foundation can try to deny Obamacare now but the Internet's memory is eternal.
Obama got it signed but Harry Reid got it done in the Senate and Nancy Pelosi got it done in the House. It's an achievement for which they all can rightfully be proud. America wins again.
If you think the bill that might have come out of a Republican administration (purely a fantasy at this point since it didn't happen) would have been the one we have now, you are wrong. Ideas come out of the Heritage Foundation, that does not make them law or even the position of the Republican party. Not every idea will be a good one and not every idea will be fleshed out fully into a law that is passed.
You've proven nothing other than that an idea was out there. You have no clue how that idea would have been written into a bill or passed as law. All you've got is a sorry law that was poorly written, passed without being completed, done at night, and was some kind of "emergency" and not subject to the transparency policies that the President campaigned on (yet another lie that low information voters fell for). Nancy Pelosi herself (bless her for being willing to sound stupid for her President--all of them sound stupid sometimes, she actually works at it) said that the law had to be passed so that we could find out what was in it.
Totally not what is supposed to happen within our "deliberative" bodies...
What was in it? A law so poorly written that President Obama had to issue this delay and that waiver, this exception and that extension...as politically expedient (read: to satisfy those who gave him big money and found out the bill was a turd). So poorly implemented that the simplest part of it--a functioning website--couldn't be delivered in time. An administration that can't document high level meetings with the President making sure his signature plan was working properly, enacted on time, and actually helping the American people that s2d keeps on saying "won" with this bill. No, he met with union leaders and others; not the Secretary in charge of implementation.
If you guys had your way, Obama would get all the credit for anything good that comes out of the law and you would blame the Heritage Foundation for anything bad because of an idea from years ago that never passed under a Republican administration.
Yet another "blame Bush" type moment...you guys are good at passing the buck.
Quote: RonCNancy Pelosi herself (bless her for being willing to sound stupid for her President--all of them sound stupid sometimes, she actually works at it)
+10 -- post of the month!
I'm glad that someone finally come around on that. I will concede that if the Republicans had taken on comprehensive insurance reform, it would be worse than what existed before rather than better.Quote: RonCIdeas come out of the Heritage Foundation, that does not make them law or even the position of the Republican party. Not every idea will be a good one and not every idea will be fleshed out fully into a law that is passed.
Quote: s2dbakerI'm glad that someone finally come around on that. I will concede that if the Republicans had taken on comprehensive insurance reform, it would be worse than what existed before rather than better.Quote: RonCIdeas come out of the Heritage Foundation, that does not make them law or even the position of the Republican party. Not every idea will be a good one and not every idea will be fleshed out fully into a law that is passed.
Nice job, s2dbaker...you've managed to pick out of my post the one thing everyone pretty much already knew--that the Heritage folks did toss around some ideas--and conceded a point that you can not prove.
S-l-o-w-l-y so you can comprehend what has happened a bit better:
There was an idea. It was not a policy or law.
President Obama was elected saying he would have the most transparent administration ever.
The Democrats and their cronies put together a partisan bill with no interest in anything the Republicans had to say.
The bill passed without Republican support.
The bill was signed and heralded as a signature achievement by the President.
The law has become such a disaster that the President's folks have gone as far as trying to call in by the given name instead of the one they liked it being called earlier...Obamacare.
Now that it is failing and higher insurance rates and tax increases have been discovered in it for all, the Liberals among us try to go back to "There was an idea" and blame it on Conservatives.
STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN, MAN!!!
You can huff and puff about what Republicans would have done had they taken on comprehensive insurance reform but you can't prove a single thing. There were some ideas that may have some basis in earlier presentations, but none of them were accepted in the form presented and the Republicans had no say in the bill as passed into law. Try as you might to deflect from the truth, this is a Democrat failure.
I would like Medicare for all. In the mean time, I'll take Obamacare. Pretty much everything on your laundry list above is false or horribly screwed up. But I guess you like living in that bubble so fly your freak flag high brother.Quote: RonCSTAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN, MAN!!!
Quote: s2dbakerI would like Medicare for all. In the mean time, I'll take Obamacare.
That is fine...just don't blame the product on someone who didn't write it.
Quote: s2dbakerPretty much everything on your laundry list above is false or horribly screwed up. But I guess you like living in that bubble so fly your freak flag high brother.
Really? Tell us how it is "false" or "horribly screwed up," please.
I never called you a "freak" or anything. Is that what makes you feel better?
The first mention of a mandate was a conservative Heritage Foundation idea. I will always blame the conservatives for the mandate because that's where the blame belongs.Quote: RonCThat is fine...just don't blame the product on someone who didn't write it.
I called you flag a freak, that's hardly the same thing.Quote: RonCReally? Tell us how it is "false" or "horribly screwed up," please.
I never called you a "freak" or anything. Is that what makes you feel better?
Going over your laundry list would be a waste of time. Here's why; you will never change your mind. You are firmly ensconced in your belief that Obamacare = Bad and pointing out how wrong all those things listed above are, wouldn't change how you feel about it. Shorter version: the effort would be wasted.
