Rapid craps

if i could bet quarters, id consider playing an electronic game of craps. they have multigame video poker machines with slot, keno, and blackjack. why not add in craps?

Quote: rudeboyoi

if i could bet quarters, id consider playing an electronic game of craps. they have multigame video poker machines with slot, keno, and blackjack. why not add in craps?

quarters were certainly one of the options. I'm still trying to figure out who manufactured this thing. I've seen the identical machine in 2 casinos now.

The Shufflemaster blackjack with the video dealers is far more popular. The RAPID games are all in beta runs right now, so they are trying to iron out the kinks.

The market is:
(1) I know the blackjack qualifies as a slot machine since they deal from different decks to different players. Maybe these other electronic table games do as well. As such they are options for regions that only permit table games
(2) Low rollers are more comfortable on machines.


The problem with replacing the people is that the upfront cost of these machines are very high. Since the game appeals to low rollers it takes a long time to pay off the purchase price.

I think you will see a very limited penetration into the market.

I would agree. The casinos here that have them have been lobbying the legislature hard for the last 2 years to allow them to convert to traditional table games, and I'm sure they would be gone as quickly as they came, once that day comes.

The B/J games (and others) are not like the Shufflemaster virtual dealer games you are talking about. They look like real table games, they just have little screens embedded in the felt tables. Of course it still all electronic based, so it could fit the slot definition you described. They even have a real 'dealer' stand behind the table and chat w/the players and help them out if they have questions.

The Roulette game is actually a real wheel and ball, that sits in the center of a circular table. There is no croupier, the machine just automatically releases the ball. I don't know how that can pass as a slot machine, but its there.


http://www.indianalivecasino.com/blackjack/index.cfm

The companies pour over those laws to come up with machines that look like something else but meet the letter of the law. Class III machines look a lot like slot machines, but they behave like Bingo,so they are permitted in places where Bingo is legal.

The Shufflemaster 21 machine only had to deal from an individual 6 deck rack to each dealer to qualify as a slot machine. But the dealer has the same set of cards for all of the players.

I assume that rapid craps or rapid roulette meets these laws as well because it increases there marketplace. You may not want to play rapid craps, but if regular craps is illegal, you may choose that over a red/white/blue slot machine.

Paco -

You're confusing a bunch of stuff.

Class II machines are the 'bingo' machines. Class III are independent RNG machines. Both are slot machines.

ShuffleMaster makes BOTH the Rapid games, and the TableMaster games, and holds the patents to a lot of popular table games.

Rapid games (Craps and Roulette) use real dice and wheels & ball, but electronic betting stations. These are table games.

TableMaster games (BJ, 3 Card Poker, etc) use that large plasma screen with the image of a dealer. These are slot machines and can be Class II or III.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Paco -

You're confusing a bunch of stuff.

Class II machines are the 'bingo' machines. Class III are independent RNG machines. Both are slot machines.

ShuffleMaster makes BOTH the Rapid games, and the TableMaster games, and holds the patents to a lot of popular table games.

Rapid games (Craps and Roulette) use real dice and wheels & ball, but electronic betting stations. These are table games.

TableMaster games (BJ, 3 Card Poker, etc) use that large plasma screen with the image of a dealer. These are slot machines and can be Class II or III.

Yes, exactly. What I find weird at the Racinos here in Indy area is the games like Roulette, which are pretty much exactly the Rapid Roulette you are describing...real wheel/ball. If you can have that, why can't you have a Rapid Craps table with real dice? I suppose it has something to do with the player touching the dice. But why not have some automated dice thrower. I'd think players would still like to see the real dice come out rather than the electronic dice.

I'm 100% sure that all the slots/table games use RNG, not the bingo type games.

I saw it last week and had no desire to play it. Might has well play a slot machine. I bet it will be the future since they can now fire 3 people. It only needs one stickman.

edit4313-3
save

Maybe I should have said I enjoy the chips, the interaction with the dealers, buying my chips, and the feel of the chips, the action of throwing the chips and picking up the chips, coloring up, tipping the waittress. Watching my pile of chips grow. :)

7craps -

Since you seem to have really gotten into it, I'd like two specific questions answered, which nobody answered yet.

What was the table minimum?

What is the minimum pressure unit for bets like the 6/8 place bet?

Personally, I don't mind betting $6 on the 6/8 at a $5 table, (or even $12 at a $10 table) but I'd like to press in $1.50 units. Hell, with RapidCraps and slots type ticket printers, I should be allowed to press in 6¢ units, but I don't want to get THAT anal!

Thanks.

Quote: likeplayingcrapsandbj

Maybe I should have said I enjoy the chips, the interaction with the dealers, buying my chips, and the feel of the chips, the action of throwing the chips and picking up the chips, coloring up, tipping the waittress. Watching my pile of chips grow. :)

Funny. Sometimes I get so involved with my chips - counting and putting white dividers in, then double checking the dividers because I bet some of the counted chips, etc - that I miss the roll or bet or something.

I'm REALLY looking forward to going to Bill's on my next Vegas trip and trying it.

edit4313-4

I can't wait until you check into your room, sit down at the gaming machine, select the avatar that you want projected as your hologram, the artificial voice you want to use, and just play away with all the other players in their rooms. Your comp will tick away as reductions in your room rate (calculated to the penny). If you get bored you can switch to the porn gaming site where everyone else has selected a pornographic avatar. Your gaming machine has a nozzle that will comp you drinks at predetermined intervals depending on your rate of play. You have an option to play blackjack, craps, or roulette or carnival games.




THE MACHINE STOPS
by E.M. Forster (1909)

THE AIR-SHIP

Imagine, if you can, a small room, hexagonal in shape, like the cell of a bee. It is lighted neither by window nor by lamp, yet it is filled with a soft radiance. There are no apertures for ventilation, yet the air is fresh. There are no musical instruments, and yet, at the moment that my meditation opens, this room is throbbing with melodious sounds. An armchair is in the centre, by its side a reading-desk - that is all the furniture. And in the armchair there sits a swaddled lump of flesh - a woman, about five feet high, with a face as white as a fungus. It is to her that the little room belongs.
An electric bell rang.
The woman touched a switch and the music was silent.
'I suppose I must see who it is', she thought, and set her chair in motion. The chair, like the music, was worked by machinery and it rolled her to the other side of the room where the bell still rang importunately.
'Who is it?' she called. Her voice was irritable, for she had been interrupted often since the music began. She knew several thousand people, in certain directions human intercourse had advanced enormously.
But when she listened into the receiver, her white face wrinkled into smiles, and she said:
'Very well. Let us talk, I will isolate myself. I do not expect anything important will happen for the next five minutes - for I can give you fully five minutes, Kuno. Then I must deliver my lecture on "Music during the Australian Period".'
She touched the isolation knob, so that no one else could speak to her. Then she touched the lighting apparatus, and the little room was plunged into darkness.
'Be quick!' she called, her irritation returning. 'Be quick, Kuno; here I am in the dark wasting my time.'
But it was fully fifteen seconds before the round plate that she held in her hands began to glow. A faint blue light shot across it, darkening to purple, and presently she could see the image of her son, who lived on the other side of the earth, and he could see her.
'Kuno, how slow you are.'
He smiled gravely.
'I really believe you enjoy dawdling.'
'I have called you before, mother, but you were always busy or isolated. I have something particular to say.'
'What is it, dearest boy? Be quick. Why could you not send it by pneumatic post?'
'Because I prefer saying such a thing. I want----'
'Well?'
'I want you to come and see me.'
Vashti watched his face in the blue plate.
'But I can see you!' she exclaimed. 'What more do you want?'
'I want to see you not through the Machine,' said Kuno. 'I want to speak to you not through the wearisome Machine.'
'Oh, hush!' said his mother, vaguely shocked. 'You mustn't say anything against the Machine.'
'Why not?'
'One mustn't.'
'You talk as if a god had made the Machine,' cried the other.
'I believe that you pray to it when you are unhappy. Men made it, do not forget that. Great men, but men. The Machine is much, but it is not everything. I see something like you in this plate, but I do not see you. I hear something like you through this telephone, but I do not hear you. That is why I want you to come. Pay me a visit, so that we can meet face to face, and talk about the hopes that are in my mind.'
She replied that she could scarcely spare the time for a visit.
'The air-ship barely takes two days to fly between me and you.'
'I dislike air-ships.'
'Why?'
'I dislike seeing the horrible brown earth, and the sea, and the stars when it is dark. I get no ideas in an air- ship.'
'I do not get them anywhere else.'
'What kind of ideas can the air give you?' He paused for an instant.
'Do you not know four big stars that form an oblong, and three stars close together in the middle of the oblong, and hanging from these stars, three other stars?'
'No, I do not. I dislike the stars. But did they give you an idea? How interesting; tell me.'
'I had an idea that they were like a man.'
'I do not understand.'
'The four big stars are the man's shoulders and his knees.
The three stars in the middle are like the belts that men wore once, and the three stars hanging are like a sword.'
'A sword?'
'Men carried swords about with them, to kill animals and other men.'
'It does not strike me as a very good idea, but it is certainly original. When did it come to you first?'
'In the air-ship-----' He broke off, and she fancied that he looked sad. She could not be sure, for the Machine did not transmit nuances of expression. It only gave a general idea of people - an idea that was good enough for all practical purposes, Vashti thought. The imponderable bloom, declared by a discredited philosophy to be the actual essence of intercourse, was rightly ignored by the Machine, just as the imponderable bloom of the grape was ignored by the manufacturers of artificial fruit. Something 'good enough' had long since been accepted by our race.
'The truth is,' he continued, 'that I want to see these stars again. They are curious stars. I want to see them not from the air-ship, but from the surface of the earth, as our ancestors did, thousands of years ago. I want to visit the surface of the earth.'
She was shocked again.
'Mother, you must come, if only to explain to me what is the harm of visiting the surface of the earth.'
'No harm,' she replied, controlling herself. 'But no advantage. The surface of the earth is only dust and mud, no advantage. The surface of the earth is only dust and mud, no life remains on it, and you would need a respirator, or the cold of the outer air would kill you. One dies immediately in the outer air.'
'I know; of course I shall take all precautions.'
'And besides----'
'Well?'
She considered, and chose her words with care. Her son had a queer temper, and she wished to dissuade him from the expedition.
'It is contrary to the spirit of the age,' she asserted.
'Do you mean by that, contrary to the Machine?'
'In a sense, but----'
His image is the blue plate faded.
'Kuno!'
He had isolated himself.
For a moment Vashti felt lonely.

...

I think you are right. That is why I did not play at Bills last week. It was like slot machine. Pressing buttons for results.

"...Casino chips are dirty, filthy and a product of the last century. We are in the 21st century! Also you don't have to worry about grumpy dealers that want you to play a certain way and give you attitude..."

"...does seeing the dice land actually make a difference in what rolls! No way! The stick calls are loud and accurate and all you have to do is listen and watch your screen to see the winning roll number...."

If this is the future of craps, I won't be doing much gambling going forward.

The personal interaction is a huge part of what distinguishes craps from other games; I've never sweated what the dealers thought or said about my bets. And if you're worried about microbes, what makes you think the cash you get from the cage is any cleaner than the cheques at the table?

Guess I'm just a 20th century fuddy-duddy.

Quote: Calder

If this is the future of craps, I won't be doing much gambling going forward.

The personal interaction is a huge part of what distinguishes craps from other games; I've never sweated what the dealers thought or said about my bets. And if you're worried about microbes, what makes you think the cash you get from the cage is any cleaner than the cheques at the table?

Actually I think that you don't have much to worry about. Look at how slow the introduction to virtual blackjack has been going.

Something that you may not factor in is the huge price tags on these machines. At one point the 6 man Shufflemaster blackjack table ( or 3 card poker) was going for $135,000. It may save you some labor costs, but that mortgage on the machine is going to take a long time to payoff. Factor in smaller average bets, and your break even day is a long time in the future.

For a small casino the pit is not very profitable anyway. Between labor surveillance, cage time , and the cost of money to back those tables you don't make that much. Casinos have pits simply because it makes the casino more attractive than a slot club. Rapid Craps won't replace the pit, but it will give an alternative to the gunshy people and the relentless low rollers who are intimidated. Some people get very upset at the table when the dealer keeps correcting their bets to make them correct multiples. The machine doesn't care since it can dispense pennies as easy as anything else.

It might cost a $1.5 million for a tiny casino with a dozen games to go all electronic. That could be the profit for several years that has to be financed. I don't think you'll see it very soon.

Macau has some high end clubs where all gaming is electronic. They really have some fancy games. But it is still a specialty item. The main casinos have hundreds of games.

Wynn/Encore and Venetian/Palazzo are the two largest licenses in Vegas, and can handle roughly 5000 gamblers at one time. I bet you don't see any electronic table games in the near future.

So glad the thread was dug up. And thanks to 7craps for explaining everything to the last detail, nicely done.

Here are my two reasons for playing Rapid Craps:

1) I pretty much learned ho to play craps using online simulators and WinCraps. Therefore I'm more comfortable playing the game on a screen. It feels more familiar than pushing chips around.

2) You can sit down. In a town were you walk around a great deal, standing to play a game will limit my time on it sure as hell. The only thing that's lacking in the RC table is a foot rest, as the chairs are too high and your legs dangle.

There are downsides, too. For one the game does look easier than regular craps, so it attracts more newbies who've no idea what they're doing. This slows the game down a bit. But the game also attracts some craps veterans as well.

As I said on my trip report post, a dealer chatted with me about the game (among other things). He claimed the game would be gone soon and the dealers didn't like it. I suspect it has to do with tips. Newbies usually don't tip well. Other people tip only when they leave. Since you're colored up when you leave, you may not find enough low value chips to tip with. But that's no excuse. The dealers will change chips if you ask them too.

Also you can tip through the screen. There's a little square marked "tips" in one corner. You place your tip there in virtual chips and it gets transferred to the dealers. Among the stack there are purple $1 chips marked "Dealers Chip" which you can use to place bets for the dealers. I managed to make pass and don't pass bets for the boys, but not place or hardways bets, nor odds bets to match the pass bets.

Still, one time I reached the table after a long roll. One guy, I noticed, stood up with a balance of over $750. Someone asked the dealer how much that guy tipped. The dealer answered "seventy five cents."

If too many players at RC are bad tippers, naturally the dealers will want to take a hatchet to the table. So I urge any of you to tip decently and, if possible, loudly. Ask the dealer about it, if nothing else.

Wow. I asked a couple little questions and you gave a book report!

But thanks. That really cleared up a lot of unanswered questions.

Quote: 7craps

Want $4 odds on the six? No problem. Pays exactly $4.80.
You can buy bets for $10 and pay a 50 cent vig. Buy for $5 and pay a 25 cent vig.
$3 place bets paid exactly $5.40 for the 4 &10, $4.20 for the 5 & 9 and $3.50 for the 6 & 8. Breakage was always less than one cent!

And there it is! A response to my question that is slightly BETTER than I had hoped for!

Woo hoo!


Thanks.

Something tells me that 7craps has a vested (ie monetary) interest in RapidCraps. When I played back in March, you couldn't put odd odds on numbers because payouts needed to be in whole dollars. If they've changed the software to accommodate that,

I've played the game at Bills, and it will never be successful, in my opinion, and I hope that it isn't.

From the dealer's point of view, it is as much of a pergatory as RapidRoulette, except the game is much harder to handle due to the software and instructing the newbies who come by to check out the game. Rolls will never approach 80-100 / hour. Dealers do not want to deal RapidCraps.

Second, it absolutely sucks all of the spirit and camaraderie away from the game. Yes, you roll the dice, but you don't know if your roll was good for another player without looking up at the tiny screen. Your personal results are the same but the good (and bad) feelings that you get when you roll numbers are not there.

Thirdly, the software is absolutely unusable for someone over 40 and barely usable for those under 40. You have to know the game well to be able to correctly interface with the game which means that the only players you will get are those who know the game well (or those who have no choice but to play because there's no other game offered) and who know how to play the software. Those players who know the game well will tell you unequivocally that the camaraderie is a big part of the game. The players on this forum who have played RapidCraps don't like it compared to the regular craps game. It's a novelty.

RapidCraps does have its value for the low $ better who knows how to play the game and who knows how to use the software. I could see a sector of the craps population moving over to this game to be able to get exact payouts on all numbers, to play the don't pass in relative anonymity, and to get a spot when the other tables are full.

Actually, the BIG PLUS for this game is that you can sit.

What I see happening is that in some casinos, they will replace craps (the entire game) with RapidCraps and save 9 jobs (3 shifts 16 hours a day). With RapidCraps being the only choice of Craps, you will get some converts. Sell an automatic dice thrower in a covered bowl, and maybe you can have the game in jurisdictions where dice is currently not allowed.

I hope that doesn't happen.

I agree with you. They screwed up in CA with having playing cards match the dice after the throw to get around the law(I will not play or go to a CA casino because of that.) I will not play rapid craps. It is not craps! So what you can sit, half the fun is jumping and yelling and high 5ing when you win. Nothing beats the feeling of throwing a $5 chip on a hard way and it hits the next roll!!!!!!!!! It is a good way to meet women also!!! You take that away and what is the point anymore.

From Paco's post on the prior page:

Quote: pacomartin

THE MACHINE STOPS
by E.M. Forster (1909)

THE AIR-SHIP

Imagine, if you can, a small room, hexagonal in shape, like the cell of a bee....

OK. I finally got a chance to read the whole story.

What's your point?

Quote: likeplayingcrapsandbj

I agree with you. They screwed up in CA with having playing cards match the dice after the throw to get around the law(I will not play or go to a CA casino because of that.) I will not play rapid craps. It is not craps!

What do you mean "they screwed up"? What would have had them do instead? It's card craps or nothing, unless the law is changed.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

He's saying that since there are mechanical roulette tables - tables that use a real wheel and ball that falls randomly, but not launched by a human - that they could just as easily use two dice in an electrically operated pop-o-matic.

Would the law allow players to flip the switch that causes the mechanics to pop the pop-o-matic? Probably not. But real dice is still more preferable to the card dice system currently used.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

He's saying that since there are mechanical roulette tables - tables that use a real wheel and ball that falls randomly, but not launched by a human - that they could just as easily use two dice in an electrically operated pop-o-matic.

I may be wrong, but I think the California law says that the result of a game cannot be determined by dice, period. In at least two of the card-craps methods in use in CA, the player does throw dice, but they do not directly determine the result; rather, they "point" in one way or another, to a card or two cards that give the "dice" result.

As a "C" programmer, I see a parallel to pointers, variables that contain a memory address where the value of interest is found.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Colusa Casino, which I believe was the first California casino to offer craps, no longer has it. They used what I consider the best method, where two regular dice were used to point to one card in each of two sets of A-6. I played there a few times, and it was quite smooth. I don't know why they dropped it, but I assume it was lack of interest.

The card craps at Cache Creek seems to be quite popular, and has been going for several years. They use two decks of 36, alternating, and pick the card selected by rolling two dice, a blue one with 1s and 3s, and a red one with 2s and 4s. The deal two cards, one in a blue square and one in a red; the die with the higher number select which color card is turned over.

Of course, I would prefer a regular craps game, but it's 15 miles vs. the drive to Reno and staying over.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

I'm new to the site and saw this thread. When I first heard about it I was excited to play it because of all the reasons people have stated, but....

.....electronics craps is crappy! There I said it. It just sucks. Okay, I was feeling pretty good (that's code for being a bit wasted) by the time in the evening when I sat down to play, and maybe that clouded my opinion. But I really do think it sucks. Why? Because it was too damn slow. The irony right? But it is. When you roll a number, the guy puts it into the machine. Then he has to wait to make sure everyone has time to make another bet. Screw that! Give me the dice and let me go baby. I didn't have that problem with my MONSTER roll I had earlier that night at Casino Royale. I rolled, the dealer paid folks, BOOM! I flung'em again. That's how this SHOULD have been.

Also, it sucks because one of the presumed advantages, was that there would be no dealer errors. But I did encounter an error. It was that they said that my entire bet on one roll, I had made for the dealer! I had made a line bet with full odds, that won, but then all of a sudden I had hardly any money in my account. WTF!? So now the game slows down even more for them to handle that problem. Just bullcrap. The girl next to me had a similar problem about disappearing money. She got disgusted and left.

AND the drink service sucked. There was a girl at the table that was perturbed as much as I was. She quickly joined me as I started a "We ain't playin' until we are drinkin' " boycott. I wasn't committed to the boycott though, so I started a "We want drinks" chant. The table was more into that one. After I said, "For Pete's sake, who ya gotta blow around here to get a drink." we finally got some beverages. So maybe that lack of beverage service tainted my opinion of the table too.

I would not play it again, even though I walked with about a $5 profit. I would play Rapid Roulette again though, and I have multiple times now. It actually does what it touts itself as doing. It speeds up the game and makes it accurate. I never play real roulette though. My group plays Rapid Roulette as a social/drinking activity.

I took an opportunity play Rapid Craps this past weekend at Bill's Gambling Hall. My two cents follow.

My first bit of surprise was the concept of handing bills to the dealer, who then inputted my numbers into a computer, that gave me my balance on my screen. I'm not sure why the system doesn't just have a bill collector and a payout ticket system like any other slot machine. I would say this concept slows down the game.

In addition, if someone is done playing, instead of receiving a print-out ticket, the dealer has to count out the appropriate chips to the player. Again, slowing down the game.

I found the user interface to be relatively easy to use. I did make one mistake. The dealer caught the mistake, but did not do a good job in explaining what I had done wrong. I figured it out after the next roll. I have previous experience using the virtual craps computers at the local Indian casinos here in Phoenix, so I'm sure that helped in my using this system. Even so, I had several problems with the way the computer system worked. Some concepts were not very intuitive, as far as the user interface goes.

A couple of times the dealer did not press whatever button is required to "open up the betting", thus slowing down the game some more.

I think I would be surprised if this Rapid Craps caught on in casinos. Much like the Excalibur's attempt at computerized poker tables, I think this will last a while, and then fizzle out. I don't even particularly see why the casino would enjoy Rapid Craps. I understand that they may be saving money on craps dealers, but they are losing money on other concepts.

I noticed that Rapid Craps only had room for 14 players. A regular craps table will accommodate 16 players.

Dealers have a harder time soliciting tips with Rapid Craps. While I understand that some players severely dislike dealers who solicit tips, I at least understand why they would want to do so. At a normal craps table, if I throw in a dealer bet of some kind, the dealers are gracious and acknowledge the bet. In addition, I'm sure they are hoping that such acknowledgement will also notify other players of the possibility of placing bets for the dealers. Since Rapid Craps dealer bets are on the individual screens, it is not possible for other players to even know that such a bet has been placed for the dealers.

In the same manner, high house-edge bets that are encouraged by dealers and/or other players will not be made by the players. Example: At a regular craps table during this past weekend, a particular shooter was a hot streak. At several points, he would throw out $5 for the "hot" yo-11. Just about every other player at the table would throw in $5 on the same bet, just because the shooter did. The yo-11 never hit. Such an event would be difficult to replicate at a Rapid Craps table. Someone would have to make the bet and then verbally announce they were making the bet. I never saw any person playing Rapid Craps verbally announce any of their bets. There was no reason to do so.

The lack of dealer tips, and essentially, lack of real dealer interaction, I think provides for bored dealers. At the time I was playing, there were 2 dealers. One who ran the computer, and one whose only job seemed to be picking up the dice that gone thrown off the table. At other points, the 2 dealers just talked with each other, paying little to no attention to the players. Granted, this is a case of customer service, and could be addressed in differing manners by various casinos, however, I don't see any reason why dealers would get excited by this game, and thus I don't see any real change in this level of service.

I don't particularly see Rapid Craps as being any easier to use or easier to understand than regular craps. I think that new players can be encouraged by a regular craps table, see the excitement of the game, and can be encouraged and talked into various bets by live dealers.

Quote: konceptum

A couple of times the dealer did not press whatever button is required to "open up the betting", thus slowing down the game some more.

Hmmm.... Sounds like one of the problems I had the last time I played Rapid Roulette. I talked about it here: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/1548-bad-rapidroulette-experience/

Quote: konceptum

I noticed that Rapid Craps only had room for 14 players. A regular craps table will accommodate 16 players.

According to the ShuffleMaster website, it can be configured for up to 20 players. On the flip side, RapidRoulette can be configured for 254 players!

I walked into Bill's this weekend while in Vegas for one reason - to take a look at this Rapid Craps table. I've been playing craps for a couple years now, and have a good understanding of the game (thanks to this site & wizardofodds.com).

I didn't play RC, just observed it for a couple of minutes. The one thing that stood out to me, as with others, was the slow pace of the game. Where I really noticed it was a specific situation - when a point has already been established and the shooter rolls a 3, for example. In a normal game, very little (if anything at all) happens; dice go right back to the shooter except for a couple of bets that might need to be settled. In RC, it seemed like the timer lasted the same between each throw, regardless of the outcome.

I don't mind waiting @ a real table when a number hits (not point) such as a hard 6, and all kinds of bets get paid out, presses and parlays occur, etc... THAT'S exciting to see. But when a 3 gets rolled and one player loses a come bet and one wins a field bet, lets get the dice back out and shoot again!!!

Quote: RPToro

I walked into Bill's this weekend while in Vegas for one reason - to take a look at this Rapid Craps table. I've been playing craps for a couple years now, and have a good understanding of the game (thanks to this site & wizardofodds.com).

I didn't play RC, just observed it for a couple of minutes. The one thing that stood out to me, as with others, was the slow pace of the game. Where I really noticed it was a specific situation - when a point has already been established and the shooter rolls a 3, for example. In a normal game, very little (if anything at all) happens; dice go right back to the shooter except for a couple of bets that might need to be settled. In RC, it seemed like the timer lasted the same between each throw, regardless of the outcome.

I don't mind waiting @ a real table when a number hits (not point) such as a hard 6, and all kinds of bets get paid out, presses and parlays occur, etc... THAT'S exciting to see. But when a 3 gets rolled and one player loses a come bet and one wins a field bet, lets get the dice back out and shoot again!!!

More and more confirmation of my fears back on March 2 in this very thread!

I'm wondering if they are going to keep the game. I thought that it was on a 90 day trial run. Any comments?

Quote: DeMango

I'm wondering if they are going to keep the game. I thought that it was on a 90 day trial run. Any comments?

Just guessing, but I would assume that Shufflemaster will just give them the game. It would look bad if the casino they did the test run on refuses to purchase the machine.

I don't know if it is a participation game or not. It was my understanding that Shufflemaster's video blackjack tables cost $135K, and the high cost of financing the purchase was a big factor in not selling many machines. If shufflemaster had made them participation games, casinos might be willing to let them in the door.

Shufflemaster is big on participation games. They own the right to 3-card poker, and to Let it Ride, which are the most popular participation games in Nevada casinos.

Quote: pacomartin

Shufflemaster is big on participation games. They own the right to 3-card poker, and to Let it Ride, which are the most popular participation games in Nevada casinos.

Yeah, but those are cheap to produce.

Take a garden variety BJ table, put new felt on it, and you've got 3 card poker. Or Let it ride. Or just about any other game.

RapidCraps is a big hunk of equipment. It ain't cheap to manufacture.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Yeah, but those are cheap to produce.

Take a garden variety BJ table, put new felt on it, and you've got 3 card poker. Or Let it ride. Or just about any other game.

RapidCraps is a big hunk of equipment. It ain't cheap to manufacture.

All the gaming equipment is getting much more expensive. Look at the slots. DO you think those penny machines are cheap? When they pulled the electronic poker out of Excalibur, I don't know if it was unpopular, or if it was unpopular relative to the finance costs of the machines.

On a slightly different topic, these RapidCraps machines would make it relatively easy to have a pay to play option. That would be something really different that you could offer to your customers. An hourly fee in exchange for "free odds" on all the proposition bets. I would still require a place bet at 1.4% House Advantage.

It is now at Mandalay Bay fully automated without a stickman. They have it at Bills with a stickman. Both were empty.

Quote: likeplayingcrapsandbj

It is now at Mandalay Bay fully automated without a stickman. They have it at Bills with a stickman. Both were empty.

How do they manage without a stck-man?

Anyway, at Bill's I sat in some very crowded games. At one point there were people waiting for a seat to open up. I suppose it depends on the time of day among other factors.

It is like stand alone electronic roulette except they have 5 seats with one large screen. Put your money in, pick your numbers, and wait to see what happens.

Quote: likeplayingcrapsandbj

It is like stand alone electronic roulette except they have 5 seats with one large screen. Put your money in, pick your numbers, and wait to see what happens.

I saw the same machine in California at Fantasy Springs Casino in Indio. It is Vegas Star Craps by Shuffle Master. Random Number Generator and the players can do a virtual roll of the dice, just for entertainment purposes only, no control of the dice. If it aint craps with dice... it's crap!

Quote: Nareed

Anyway, at Bill's I sat in some very crowded games. At one point there were people waiting for a seat to open up. I suppose it depends on the time of day among other factors.

I have played at Bill's a few times and you are right about how crowded it gets. It sure is fun to sit down and kick back playing craps while still getting all your bets in. Computer terminals were easy to use and all the newbies had no problem after a few minutes of playing getting the bets down. A few of the dealers made voice that they did not like the game and seemed to purposely slow it down. But other dealers, the majority and most were the female dealers, kept it going at a nice pace, except for cash outs, and when we had a 42 roll hand by this guy where every other roll went off the table, the place was rocking!!! People were 2 deep trying to get into the game. Rapid Craps will not replace all craps tables but I hope it makes it into more casinos.

Quote: 7winner

A few of the dealers made voice that they did not like the game and seemed to purposely slow it down. But other dealers, the majority and most were the female dealers, kept it going at a nice pace

Just a note for the slow dealers at Rapid Craps...you dudes are really missing a great opportunity. There are 2 signs posted at the table about asking about dealer tips. What casino table allows hustling tokes!?! As an ex-dealer myself, just cant think of ANY!

You are not even hustling, just given the chance to explain how to tip for the dealers. A few of the female dealers have it down and make the table fun, come on other rapid craps dealers and get with it!

Quote: konceptum

I noticed that Rapid Craps only had room for 14 players. A regular craps table will accommodate 16 players.

I played at Bill's at the Rapid Craps table and talked with a service tech that was there doing something to a players terminal. He said 6 more terminals could be added to the same size table for a total of 20 players. As an old old man, bring more seats in!

Also the game is still in a trial mode and MANY things need to be approved by Nevada Gaming including ticket in/out, terminal reset after a no-roll situation and so on.

The table would rock when it got hot and numbers were rolling, everyone screaming, high 5s every place and the payouts were fast! sure like the fact you can bet anything at anytime, and press up bets by $1.

I did have to wear my glasses to see the terminal clearly, being old and grey it comes with the territory!

edit4313-5

Quote: 7craps

Hey 7winner I was at Rapid Craps last Monday and I remember you talking with that service tech guy. You left the table before a nice 39 roller by a newbie. was cool getting instant payouts.

You are right that the table rocks when a long roll comes around and it seems to happen more at this table than at a regular table. I even had longer rolls than my norm... must be the lack of obstacles on the layout as you roll the dice.

I also asked the service tech a few questions about updating the game and he said only time will tell when it gets full gaming approval.

Players either love or hate the game for different reasons. Add me to the love group.

I was not there on Monday, it was Wednesday night I think. The table was really crowded and the dealers there said the table seems to stay busy except around the dinner hour. I too hope to see more rapid craps tables in more casinos.

Quote: 7winner

I have played at Bill's a few times and you are right about how crowded it gets. It sure is fun to sit down and kick back playing craps while still getting all your bets in. Computer terminals were easy to use and all the newbies had no problem after a few minutes of playing getting the bets down.

I think I mentioned before that one reason I liked RC is that I learned to play craps on mu home computer, therefore I felt a great deal more comfortable placing bets at a computer terminal. Easier to keep track of my bets, too.

I saw some newbies who just couldn't get the hang of it, but many would have had the same trouble at an old fashioned craps table. They didn't know the game or the interface. I had some interface troubles, too, but you do get used to it quickly.

About having to hand money to the dealer, and getting paid in chips, it was explained to me at a rapid roulette table once. These "rapid" games are not slot machines. Slot machines are regulated differently than table games. If they allowed the money to be put into the machine and tickets issued, then they would be slot machines.

Quote: BigTip

About having to hand money to the dealer, and getting paid in chips, it was explained to me at a rapid roulette table once. These "rapid" games are not slot machines. Slot machines are regulated differently than table games. If they allowed the money to be put into the machine and tickets issued, then they would be slot machines.

Just to give an east coast view (seems like every rule in Vegas is slightly different in AC anyway)...the Rapid Roulette table is Ticket or Cash in (through a Slot Machine type bill acceptor), but you are paid off in chips. I figured it was also another way to get that last chance at a tip when they deliver your winnings.

Quote: cclub79

Just to give an east coast view (seems like every rule in Vegas is slightly different in AC anyway)...the Rapid Roulette table is Ticket or Cash in (through a Slot Machine type bill acceptor), but you are paid off in chips. I figured it was also another way to get that last chance at a tip when they deliver your winnings.

Good info. When I talked with a service tech that had worked on the Rapid Craps table at Bill's he did mention just that. He did not see a need for ticket out. It would still be like leaving a regular casino table on cash out. Even tho at Rapid Craps the cash outs really do slow the game down if there is more than one cash out at a time, well actually the game totally stops and that does suck! I think it is the worst thing about the rapid craps game.

Perhaps what it needs is a single ticket out (or at least receipt out), in the stick's area, that would allow him to take his time paying out the players cashing out, while the game continues at it's regular pace.

Then again, having never played Rapid Craps yet, maybe it already does this and I don't know it. However, I'd assume someone would have mentioned it already if it did...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Perhaps what it needs is a single ticket out (or at least receipt out), in the stick's area, that would allow him to take his time paying out the players cashing out, while the game continues at it's regular pace.

Then again, having never played Rapid Craps yet, maybe it already does this and I don't know it. However, I'd assume someone would have mentioned it already if it did...

Hey, Bear that is a great idea. You must try Rapid Craps, it has some nice features unless you want the dealers to do everything for you.

Im sure Shuffle Master reads this forum and I know it does take customer survey cards at Bills.